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Post by ellehaym on Jan 5, 2021 22:28:41 GMT
Whilst he claims that Mythal was the best of them, I do feel he objected to the whole idea of godhood for any of them, or was this only after they killed Mythal? We know by his own admission that he enjoyed court intrigue and I do not believe he got the reputation of a trickster only after he started his rebellion. I suspect he enjoyed playing one god/noble off against another whilst he was under her patronage. That's what I think as well. He may not have sought worship from the people like the rest of the Evanuris, but I think young Solas played his part as one of the Evanuris. There is at least 2 stories by Felassan where Fen'Harel answered the prayers of people when the other gods did not. 1 was the tale of the Slow Arrow and the other he advised to kill the daughter of an Elvhen king if the supplicant wanted to see the noble women he was smitten with. I'm not sure about the "wisdom" of the latter story, but it sounds like Fen'Harel is planting seeds of turmoil and potential blood-fued if the supplicant were to go through with his advise. If there's truth to Felassan's story, then there's some truth in the Evanuris warning about how Fen'Harel's advise seem to make sense at 1st but quickly becomes poison.
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Post by colfoley on Jan 5, 2021 22:46:27 GMT
In Mythal's case, I would not be surprised if she wanted to usurp power from the others because she believed they were undeserving of it or because she honestly believed everything would be better if she was the sole evanuris in power (with Fen'Harel as an ally). The odd thing about Mythal is that she didn't seem bothered unless it directly affected her. According to Solas she only took Falon'Din to task when he started to encroach on her lands but was content to leave him to bother the others. Apparently she and the other gods were content to let Andruil hunt as she pleased until they were worried she might hunt them, which is when Mythal took action. Then there is the whole business of Ghilan'nain and her monsters. Since Pride stopped her from killing her monsters of the sea, are we to assume this was Solas? So why did he stop her. Did Mythal direct him to? Remember Mythal was associated with the sea so did she want the monsters for herself? Meanwhile Fen'Harel is around who hates the evanuris. Whilst he claims that Mythal was the best of them, I do feel he objected to the whole idea of godhood for any of them, or was this only after they killed Mythal? We know by his own admission that he enjoyed court intrigue and I do not believe he got the reputation of a trickster only after he started his rebellion. I suspect he enjoyed playing one god/noble off against another whilst he was under her patronage. I think that Solas was already in open rebellion when they killed Mythal and that is what tipped him over the edge from conventional rebllion to creating the Veil nuking them. Its also possible that Mythal was sort of an inside woman, maybe one of the reasons why they killed her.
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Post by fairdragon on Jan 9, 2021 13:46:38 GMT
sorry if that is in here, but do you know the connection between solas paintings???? The first one seems to show him raising the Veil and cutting off the Evanuris somewhere inside the Black City. The figure on the right appears to be holding the orb, which we must assume was part of the process. The second one seems to show him removing the vallaslin from elves fleeing the Evanuris. There he seems to be dressed in a ritual costume that conceals his true identity behind the Dread Wolf disguise. The third is said to be a self-portrait, in which case it may be showing that his Dread Wolf persona dominates in the Fade (the dark area with triangles) whereas the ordinary figure is what holds sway outside it. The last one shows a battle with a titan or possibly a guardian such as confronts us in the Descent. It isn't clear whether the orb was used in the fight or whether it was acquired as a result of it. Mythal is said to be the one who defeated the "pillars of the earth" but it is entirely possible she did this with the aid of Fen'Harel. In some ways it could be argued that time wise they should be in reverse order as the bottom one is the oldest. that isn't what i meant. I know what they should represent.
i mean the connection between the images. Symbols repeat themselves. more of a kind of interpretation. What are the stars or the triangles? who is the left figure in the first? and so on.
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Post by fairdragon on Jan 9, 2021 14:10:49 GMT
Does anyone have a source for Elgar'nan meaning Spirit of Vengeance? I've found 2 sources for Elgar meaning spirit but nothing for nan meaning vengeance. I went to the elven language section on the dragon age wiki and it sais nan means vengeance but its source isn't a book or game its just the elgar'nan wiki page which unless I'm missing something doesn't say anything about it. Is it just an assumption that if he's the God of Vengeance the his name must be Spirit of Vengeance?
Fen'harel is the god of trickery and deception (or rebellion in other circles), but his title doesn't translate into The Dread Deceiver or The Dread Trickster, nor the Rebel Wolf. And his name Solas means Pride - so it doesn't necsarily follow that the thing they're most famous for is going to be an evanuris' title or name. It occured to me while looking for a source that Elgar'nans' name could mean pretty much anything! Spirit of Glory, Father-Spirit etc. (If anyone has actual source for nan = vengeance I'd love to see it though) So I decided to go looking for every instance of nan I could find to see if I could find a source for vengeance or figure out a different meaning. There were 2 long words that translated into phrases containing nan and 3 instances of it in a short word that translated into another single short word.* In the later it seems unlikely to have an independent meaning, but in the former the meanings seem related and perhaps more promsing.
Elvhen is 'the people', Elvhenan is 'the place of the people'. WoTv1 p27. So here nan = place
'Dirthara lothlenan'as - Seek truth in a forgotten land' Mir Da'len Somniar, A traditional Dalish Lullaby WoTv2 p.217. And here based on its previous use and this translation, it looks like nan = land
And whipping up the Spirits sources for completions sake -
'in elgar sa vir mana - Take spirit from the long ago'. Suledin (Endure) WoT1 p.29
Elgar'arla means: Spirit-trap; a binding circle to hold a spirit or demon. Dragon Age: The Masked Empire, Chapter 12. (taking the wikis word for this one since theres no pg number)
So it looks like Elgar'nan could mean something along the lines of 'Spirit of the Land/Place'. With what exactly depending on what its combined with, though that might be on the reliability of the translation.
Thats my theory of today.
*Enansal: Blessing, Renan: Voice, Vhenan: Heart; often used as a term of endearment
I very much doubt Elgar'nan's name directly translates to 'god/spirit of vengeance.' When the god in question is known for his volatile temper and has ability to strike down all his opposers, if I were his subject my first instinct (as a person with a healthy survival instinct) would be to refer to him with a more complimentary title. Like Solas having the personal name 'Pride' and the moniker 'Fen'Harel', I wonder if Elgar'nan also has a different personal name which hasn't survived to our modern Dragon age - perhaps because his worshippers weren't allowed to use it? It's regretable the elven language in DA games is a cipher, since you could do pretty awesome things with it if a little more thought was put into its creation. For example, compare the words elvhen ('our people') vhenan ('heart', an endearment ('a heart-let'?)), and vhenadahl ('the tree of the people'): so if we assume the words for 'people' and 'heart' are homonyms (words that have same spelling and pronunciation, in this case vhen), is the meaning of vhenadahl 'a heart tree' instead of 'the tree of the people' and, given what we know about lyrium and titans, does that mean something more ominous? Other thing people with little practise in foreign languages often are guilty of is to assume the grammatical rules are the same as in English. The vocabulary list in the wiki tells us the word elgara means 'the sun'. So does Elgar'nan's name indeed mean some kind of spirit or some sort of sun? Also, compare the names Elgar'nan and Ghilan'nain: if creators had taken a leaf out of Tolkien's book and used Welsh in creating the elvhen language, you could speculate how monosyllabic nouns with long 'a' vowel sound have the plural form 'ai' (see: brân 'crow', brain 'crows'), so nain could be the plural of nan. Pretty sure -an is the suffix meaning place, not -nan. See Arlathan (place of love), Revesan (place of freedom), Vir'abelasan (place of the way of sorrows). As 'I love you' translates Ar lath ma, the developers' claim that Arlathan translates to 'this place of love' stinks of 'I failed all my language classes' or it's a deliberate attempt distract us from the fact that the word arla means 'a trap' (see: elgar'arla 'a spirit-trap'). So what lies trapped in Arlathan? I thought there was still no mature language.
When there is no fully developed language, one can only make assumptions without translation. you can get references from other languages, but that doesn't make it right.
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Post by jrpN7 on Jan 9, 2021 18:01:55 GMT
The magic used in Tevinter is just reaper tech found from an abandoned Prothean data archive. How else do they have neon signs in circa 1150.
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Post by gervaise21 on Jan 9, 2021 19:14:15 GMT
How else do they have neon signs in circa 1150. It's light magic, go for it. Let's face it, after time travel anything else is easy.
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Post by midnight tea on Jan 9, 2021 21:07:22 GMT
The magic used in Tevinter is just reaper tech found from an abandoned Prothean data archive. How else do they have neon signs in circa 1150. While I know this is a joke... technological convergence is a thing, even in a theoretical fantasy scenario It's shiny and brings attention to itself? A sign to attract attention! The only reason we didn't have neon signs earlier is because we didn't have technology allowing them, while they are using magic in more... realistic way.
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Post by xerrai on Jan 9, 2021 22:18:23 GMT
The magic used in Tevinter is just reaper tech found from an abandoned Prothean data archive. How else do they have neon signs in circa 1150. While I know this is a joke... technological convergence is a thing, even in a theoretical fantasy scenario It's shiny and brings attention to itself? A sign to attract attention! The only reason we didn't have neon signs earlier is because we didn't have technology allowing them, while the are using magic in more... realistic way. Plus odds are good that some of them are being partially fueled by lyrium or lyrium-infused substances like glowstone. The Orlesians are already have glowing pathways in the richest districts of thier Empire, so why would Tevinter not have something similar?
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Post by pessimistpanda on Jan 10, 2021 1:02:03 GMT
It makes sense for a country with a different attitude towards magic to have things that the rest of Thedas doesn't, but it doesn't really gel with what Dorian told us about Tevinter being a decrepit and crumbling empire, lol.
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Post by midnight tea on Jan 10, 2021 2:12:01 GMT
It makes sense for a country with a different attitude towards magic to have things that the rest of Thedas doesn't, but it doesn't really gel with what Dorian told us about Tevinter being a decrepit and crumbling empire, lol. I don't see how these things are mutually exclusive? First - why assume magic neon lights are something difficult to cast or prohibitively expensive? I see this more as an issue with negative attitude towards magic on the South - even relatively easy and cheap stuff would be seen as rare, exciting or dangerous, because of heavy restrictions and suspicion towards virtually any magic. Plus, Cyberpunk-type cities with neon lights are usually very high-tech, but also pretty decrepit and dank at places, with maybe richer districts holding up. And a lot of stuff may be a holdover from times when the city fared better. Also - for Southerners arriving and seeing Minrathous for the first time all of it would be impressive, at least on surface (while Dorian is a native who has seen all corners of the city and studied its history.) Like, as someone who has been raised in a poor region of a poor country compared to places like Western Europe or US, stuff Westerners often took for granted or didn't think of as much were signs of great wealth. There was a time in early 90-ties when having a landline telephone was a rarity. Stuff like old Nintendo console? That was like having a Lamborghini. Super-rare stuff. In my childhood I have only seen one (I myself only had a knock-off of Atari 2600 - a console the last version of which was older than me ). So I expect Minrathous to be impressive at first, or at places, or from far away - and then we'll start seeing cracks and plaster falling off walls.
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Post by gervaise21 on Jan 10, 2021 9:08:23 GMT
It makes sense for a country with a different attitude towards magic to have things that the rest of Thedas doesn't, but it doesn't really gel with what Dorian told us about Tevinter being a decrepit and crumbling empire, lol. I'm with Midnight Tea on this, plus from what I recall Dorian doesn't say it is decrepit and crumbling, simply that his people are attached the the past and maintain their ancient buildings rather than favour new ones. Some of the concept art shows buildings only held up by magic but not necessarily in Minrathous. The rather decrepit buildings that were described in Asunder were in a provincial city, not one of the main metropolitan settings along the coast. World of Thedas says the dwarven embassy in Minrathous is still considered one of the wonders of the world, as are the Proving grounds, the massive arena in the city that is designed as a triangular prism and has walls decorated with hanging and terraced gardens. The temples to the Old Gods were built from jet stone from Kirkwall and still stand but repurposed to the Circle of Magi, in the case of Razikale, and other functions (I would imagine places of worship for the Maker). In Tevinter Nights we are told of a floating aqueduct in Vyrantium that is considered so commonplace by the locals they never pay it any attention. In that book there are some really impressive gardens overlooked by a building used by Dorian (presumably his home in Minrathous or maybe simply hired for meetings away from his home) that is constructed from white marble. In a different story the home of an Altus is said to have a chandelier that is "far to heavy to hang naturally" and the narrator states: "It is the sort of enchantment you expect in these old houses". So whilst we see those signs and think they look neon and modern, in fact they probably reflect magic that has always been used in the Imperium. It is probably fairly simple magic to maintain as well. Just glyphs made permanent and enhanced with lyrium I should imagine. Also, note that Myrion in Three Tress to Midnight was a slave elevated to Laetans class on discovering his magic when the factory owner where he worked decided to adopt him into his family, thus raising that family from Soporati to Laetans and Myrion from slave to citizen. However, as he points out to Strife, that didn't give him any great status in Tevinter and his job was maintaining the street lighting in Ventus. So the use of glowing lamps and lights is considered very basic magic in Tevinter. Of course morally speaking Tevinter is a decrepit and crumbling empire whose ruling elite cling to their ancient buildings because that way they can imagine they are still part of that glorious past rather than the degenerate present. The Altus are too willing to take for granted their status and inheritance; the Magisterium is ripe with corruption. It is not the buildings that are crumbling but the society itself, rotting from within. That is what Dorian, Maevaris and the Lucerni are trying to combat.
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Post by colfoley on Jan 11, 2021 2:49:07 GMT
Besides most Empires have a glittery shine to them on the outside as they try to present strength and culture, but underneath at the core is rotte..
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Post by fluffysmom on Jan 11, 2021 9:20:28 GMT
I very much doubt Elgar'nan's name directly translates to 'god/spirit of vengeance.' When the god in question is known for his volatile temper and has ability to strike down all his opposers, if I were his subject my first instinct (as a person with a healthy survival instinct) would be to refer to him with a more complimentary title. Like Solas having the personal name 'Pride' and the moniker 'Fen'Harel', I wonder if Elgar'nan also has a different personal name which hasn't survived to our modern Dragon age - perhaps because his worshippers weren't allowed to use it? It's regretable the elven language in DA games is a cipher, since you could do pretty awesome things with it if a little more thought was put into its creation. For example, compare the words elvhen ('our people') vhenan ('heart', an endearment ('a heart-let'?)), and vhenadahl ('the tree of the people'): so if we assume the words for 'people' and 'heart' are homonyms (words that have same spelling and pronunciation, in this case vhen), is the meaning of vhenadahl 'a heart tree' instead of 'the tree of the people' and, given what we know about lyrium and titans, does that mean something more ominous? Other thing people with little practise in foreign languages often are guilty of is to assume the grammatical rules are the same as in English. The vocabulary list in the wiki tells us the word elgara means 'the sun'. So does Elgar'nan's name indeed mean some kind of spirit or some sort of sun? Also, compare the names Elgar'nan and Ghilan'nain: if creators had taken a leaf out of Tolkien's book and used Welsh in creating the elvhen language, you could speculate how monosyllabic nouns with long 'a' vowel sound have the plural form 'ai' (see: brân 'crow', brain 'crows'), so nain could be the plural of nan. As 'I love you' translates Ar lath ma, the developers' claim that Arlathan translates to 'this place of love' stinks of 'I failed all my language classes' or it's a deliberate attempt distract us from the fact that the word arla means 'a trap' (see: elgar'arla 'a spirit-trap'). So what lies trapped in Arlathan? I thought there was still no mature language.
When there is no fully developed language, one can only make assumptions without translation. you can get references from other languages, but that doesn't make it right. Off the top of my head there are mentions in a few weapon descriptions and maybe a codex where the elves called for his vengeance or referred to his acts as such. On that note though, he is almost always mentioned alongside fire and a very quick temper so I’ve always associated him with Rage. Especially with his statue of ‘slanted eyes and a snarling mouth’. All of his stories have him starting fights or killing anyone/thing that got in his way. To me, Vengeance is now Mythal just as Solas is Pride. What would the original spirit for Rage be? Do we even know yet? The only ones I know of are: Wisdom-Pride Justice-Vengeance Hope-Despair Purpose-Desire
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Post by dadithinkimgay on Jan 15, 2021 15:44:40 GMT
I'm not sure if this has been pointed out, but I think I may have an idea with what's going on with The Dread Wolf's Eyes. We obviously recognize that the eyes are dissimilar and oddly proportioned, but the one thing they have in common is that the iris' are filled in white and are circular. From there, we can see how some of have been altered. One has a circle around the center iris, one is smaller than the rest, and one is larger and deformed, which could likely be altering the smaller one. Now let's take a look at Meredith's red lyrium sword (the repurposed red lyrium idol) and the Orb of Fen'Harel, which happen to share design similarities with the iris. Notice how the shape that surrounds the Orb is an exact match to one of Fen'Harel's eyes - the filled in circle surrounded by another circle. If we take a look at the sword, the filled-in, tiny circle on the inside of the sword is also in the center of one of Fen'Harel's eyes. That same eye also happens to be large, deformed, and moving with a mind of it's own - just as if it were infected with red lyrium. We know that the orb is Solas', and from TN, we know that the Red Lyrium Idol is also apparently his. The mural is depicting that relationship rather intrinsically, as if the magical artifacts are apart of himself with no difference between his eyes also being apart of himself. Perhaps these items are bound I've always thought that Solas left a piece of himself away when he trapped the Evanuris, (Cole once alluded to him tearing a piece of himself off and also being in two places at once) and I think this mural connects the dots with that theory and how exactly Solas connects with those artifacts - they're bound to the other piece of himself. The wolf we see in Solas' self portriat assumingly has that piece of Solas (it is a self-portrait afterall.) In other words, Solas says that he is unlike Flemythal, but that's not the same for his wolf. Flemythal declares herself as a "shadow", and we keep seeing the word in marketing: "the shadows of the past stir" and them referring to TDWR mural as "an old friend standing with a shadowy threat." The Leviathan Andruil we've seen captioned under the former quote may be a shadow of Andruil in the same sense, and not the actual Andruil who is trapped along with the Evanuris. The monster standing with Ghili in HoH who seems to get bigger and more monstrous - same relationship. Solas is connected to the orb and the idol because they are bound to an extension of himself. DAI ended right as we learned about this ancient magic stuff, so I assume we will definitely learn more about how it all works - I'm particularly intrigued by Falon'Din and Dirthamen's relationship.
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Post by gervaise21 on Jan 15, 2021 18:55:56 GMT
I'm particularly intrigued by Falon'Din and Dirthamen's relationship. Well that codex says that: The oldest stories never even name them directly, referring to Falon’Din as “Dirthamen’s shadow,” and Dirthamen as “Falon’Din’s reflection.” So if your theory is correct then Falon'Din and Dirthamen would have a similar relationship to Solas and Fen'Harel. Which would make a degree of sense because Falon'Din seemed to be in the Fade with Dirthamen outside of it. Except that would mean that one of them was still free, or is freed along with the shadow of Andruil, etc. I've always thought that Solas left a piece of himself away when he trapped the Evanuris Nevertheless, it is possible that the six eyes do represent six pieces of Fen'Harel that would have to be destroyed for him to be killed, which is why he was so anxious to obtain the idol. Also, for some reason the Qunari are convinced that Solas is not his true name either. Now he did say that "Solas came first" but by this he could simply have meant before Fen'Harel, rather than Solas was his original identity. It is also entirely possible that the Qunari do know something about his origins. If we assume that they came across the sea from the same place as the Executors (possibly fleeing them), then we know that the latter are considered dangerous by Solas and they may well know more about him than Charter was able to discover because he silenced them. Both the Qunari and the Executors seem to have been trying to recover the idol. Maybe it isn't for the power it can give but for what it can do to him. If the information in Genetivi Dies in the End was not simply a red herring, then it is entirely possible that the way to defeat Solas, or at least make him vulnerable, would be to discover his true identity. If your theory is correct then we may also need to track down the items relating to the other eyes.
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Post by gervaise21 on Jan 15, 2021 19:21:41 GMT
Further thoughts, when Morrigan summons Mythal at the shrine she says: "Whatever you are, whatever remains, I invoke your name and your power." Does this imply that the power is linked to the name in some way? This could be a reason why Solas took the name Fen'Harel because there was power in that name. Not just a case of the name putting fear into his enemies by reputation but that it actually carries power that Solas does not. Of course, if that were the case then surely his enemies would refuse to use that name because in so doing they would diminish him? Unless they were not aware of his true identity either.
Mind you, it is noticeable that the Executor only refers to him as "the Wolf", not the "Dread Wolf" and I've long wondered if that was intentional. If my latest theory is correct, then the Executor was trying to diminish him.
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Post by colfoley on Jan 15, 2021 23:16:33 GMT
Further thoughts, when Morrigan summons Mythal at the shrine she says: "Whatever you are, whatever remains, I invoke your name and your power." Does this imply that the power is linked to the name in some way? This could be a reason why Solas took the name Fen'Harel because there was power in that name. Not just a case of the name putting fear into his enemies by reputation but that it actually carries power that Solas does not. Of course, if that were the case then surely his enemies would refuse to use that name because in so doing they would diminish him? Unless they were not aware of his true identity either. Mind you, it is noticeable that the Executor only refers to him as "the Wolf", not the "Dread Wolf" and I've long wondered if that was intentional. If my latest theory is correct, then the Executor was trying to diminish him. TVN spoilers are a bit of a weird spot for me right now... But it is mentioned in TVN that Solas or Fen'harel might not be his real name either, it is certainly implied. And then in Tresspasser he does lament to the Inquisitor about their shared status of having a 'title that all but replaces your name', or whatever his verbage is. Now the...issue...with this is we do not know what power knowing someone's real name has over them. This is actually especially interesting because a similar concept comes up in Babylon 5...and also interesting when you consider that Qunari names are, essentially, actions and Spirit names are emotion. But we do not know if knowing someone's true name gives you the ability to control that person,physically or metaphysically,nor do we know if this 'power of the name' only applies in certain circumstances, IE with the Evanuris, spirits, and the Qunari seem to believe its important.
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Post by gervaise21 on Jan 16, 2021 8:47:15 GMT
the Qunari seem to believe its important. As I've said before, it could be a red herring but assuming it isn't I find it curious that a faction who barely tolerate magic should come up with a concept like this. Of course, we know the Viddasala was studying magical threats and first told us that Solas gave the orb to Corypheus, which was odd in itself because he maintained he did not give it directly so she managed to work out the link between the actual agent and Solas. We also know that they continued their research facility after the removal of the Viddasala by Solas and he considered it enough of a threat that he had one of his agents sabotage it. Yet I still find it odd that Rasaan is aware of the fact that he was both Fen'Harel and Solas considering that even the Viddasala only saw him as an agent of Fen'Harel. Also her words: "The name given when he lied to us - and to your Inquisition - was chosen by a self-styled martyr." What does she mean by this? It would seem that the Ben'Hassrath questioned him directly about his name. Does she mean the Iron Bull or one of their other agents in the Inquisition or some other time? Then she states that "Solas is also not true." They must have access to either records or individuals who were able to tell them more. Also, why would they feel it mattered to know his true name? It could have something to do with the Qunari philosophy about knowing what something truly is that is actually more than mere rhetoric. Or alternatively something they have discovered concerning elven names. I would refer you to my post above concerning Morrigan's words when she summons Mythal at her shrine: "I invoke your name and your power". Could there be a link between the two? In which case, taking Mythal into himself could have been a way of protecting himself against such an attack because even if they strip him of his power, he still has hers.
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Post by Sifr on Jan 18, 2021 16:19:57 GMT
But it is mentioned in TVN that Solas or Fen'harel might not be his real name either, it is certainly implied. That would an additional layer of subtext to his comment about hoping that Abelas finds "a new name".
We also know that Abelas adopted his name ("Sorrow") after the fall of Elvhenan and loss of their gods, so it seems like this was not too uncommon a practice for Ancient Elves. Solas having taken the name "Pride" might have been somehow related to his original role and purpose, prior to him turning against the Evanuris and adopting the persona of "the Dread Wolf".
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Post by gervaise21 on Jan 18, 2021 19:42:35 GMT
Solas having taken the name "Pride" might have been somehow related to his original role and purpose, prior to him turning against the Evanuris and adopting the persona of "the Dread Wolf". The fact that Solas might not have been his first name was not that great a surprise from what we know about the elves. What seemed strange is that Rasaan thought it important enough to go looking for it. In other settings knowing a person's true name can give you power over them but that has never been suggested to be the case in Thedas up to now. Then a civilisation that fears mages and magic but has been extensively researching them seems to think it is important. So one wonders what they have discovered that the rest of Thedas doesn't know about.
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Post by xerrai on Jan 18, 2021 22:19:43 GMT
Solas having taken the name "Pride" might have been somehow related to his original role and purpose, prior to him turning against the Evanuris and adopting the persona of "the Dread Wolf". The fact that Solas might not have been his first name was not that great a surprise from what we know about the elves. What seemed strange is that Rasaan thought it important enough to go looking for it. In other settings knowing a person's true name can give you power over them but that has never been suggested to be the case in Thedas up to now. Then a civilisation that fears mages and magic but has been extensively researching them seems to think it is important. So one wonders what they have discovered that the rest of Thedas doesn't know about. Is it really that strange in Rasaan's case? She was literally first seen dogmatically questioning Isabella about her "true" name in Those Who Speak. And she apparently reacted similarly when she discovered Genetivi and co. in the deep roads. So her searching for Solas's true name seems pretty par for the course. It's literally one of her defining character traits. And I think she even outlined why she wants to find it. "To call a thing by its name is to know its reason in the world", and seeing as elves can literally name themselves after concepts, this is likely especially true. A true name is likely highly valued because it can help ascertain knowledge. It can lead to paper trails, revelations of the past that make them who they are, impressions of why they act how they act, etc. Knowledge that the Qun would likely find extremely useful in how to deal with (either through conversion or destruction) an individual. It doesn't neccesarily have to have a magical component behind it.
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Post by telanadas on Jan 19, 2021 3:43:32 GMT
The emerald knights do mention the 'true name' concept in their epitaphs of the lost. Maybe the true name is both a magical invokation as well as an embodiment of past selves and goals.
If their true name was burnt away 'where glory ends', I wonder if Fen'harel committing himself to his own cause involved something similar? His true name could have also burnt when he started his dinan'shiral.
Also, if he is indeed a 'self styled martyr' it would be interesting to find out what motivated him in his origin story. After all he did have a place in the pantheon and he enjoyed courtly intrigue. The question of whether he became Solas before or after he became a 'god' becomes more important.
Going by the Ghilan'nain codex, I am assuming he was already Solas when he was at least fighting for the evanuris. And he says he was Solas first, Fen'Harel came later- a title that basically replaced his name.
Maybe the name 'Solas' was formed to stand for the pride of the elves, fighting against some unknown enemy. But when Fen'harel replaced his name after the war/s, his original purpose became twisted possibly allowing him to turn into the dread wolf.
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Post by xerrai on Jan 19, 2021 18:35:01 GMT
Speaking of names, do we have any evidence that Solas tried either re-name or discover the true name of any of the evanuris? If names really are as powerful as we make them out to be, I don't see why Solas wouldn't take every chance to diminish thier power by either uncovering thier pre-godhood names or trying to rebrand them in some form or fashion. "Fen'Harel" started as an insult, so why couldn't Solas do something similar to the evanuris?
But perhaps as the so-called "First" of the People, maybe the evanuris were already using thier true names? Although I think it is unlikely this applies to evanuris like Ghilan'nan, who were added later on.
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Post by gervaise21 on Jan 20, 2021 13:30:19 GMT
"Fen'Harel" started as an insult, so why couldn't Solas do something similar to the evanuris? Well he was doing that to them collectively since they were now regarded as gods and he was determined to downgrade them back to what they originally were, leaders in a time of troubles but otherwise no different to everyone else. I can't remember clearly but did anyone else refer to them as the Evanuris? Since the sword Evanura belonged to the leader of the Emerald Knights, I have assumed that the word means "leaders". So may be that was his way of insulting them back to their original status. The Dalish refer to them as the Creators. The elves in the Vir Dirthara refer to them as the gods: "Where are the gods?" Whereas Solas merely calls them collectively "the Leaders" because that is where they started from. But perhaps as the so-called "First" of the People, maybe the evanuris were already using thier true names? This is probably true of the mortal forms but it is possible their spirit forms had a different identity. There is also a degree of disagreement now on these boards as to what various names may have meant. What does 'nan mean? As more than one of them has it as a suffix, it seems unlikely to mean "vengeance" as suggested by the Wiki. Also, I've repeatedly questioned how Falon'Din could have been "Friend of the Dead" when initially the elves were ageless so did not die except by violent means. So may be it is not so much what their original names may have been but what they mean.
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Post by xerrai on Jan 20, 2021 18:08:22 GMT
"Fen'Harel" started as an insult, so why couldn't Solas do something similar to the evanuris? Well he was doing that to them collectively since they were now regarded as gods and he was determined to downgrade them back to what they originally were, leaders in a time of troubles but otherwise no different to everyone else. I can't remember clearly but did anyone else refer to them as the Evanuris? Since the sword Evanura belonged to the leader of the Emerald Knights, I have assumed that the word means "leaders". So may be that was his way of insulting them back to their original status. The Dalish refer to them as the Creators. The elves in the Vir Dirthara refer to them as the gods: "Where are the gods?" Whereas Solas merely calls them collectively "the Leaders" because that is where they started from. I can't recall where we first heard it (a mural memory?), but we do see the term used in a document that described an old song that is sung by modern Dalish. It was the "Mythal gives you dreams" song, and it described how an unknown something (dreams? Fade connecting to dwarves?) was "Making our leaders proud" (Him solas evanuris). Although I have heard of alternate translations ranging from " [Their] Pride made our leaders" to "The Evanuris made Pride/Solas". But I know dim didly about the elvhen language aside from the fact it is highly contextual and prone to having a rhythm. But the song's inclusion of a still active Mythal in what I can only assume to be just after or during the Titan-War era makes me think that the term "Evanuris" was precursor term that was used for them before they reached "godhood" status. But this assumes the evanuris were not considered gods at that point already. Most theories posit that it was only when they took 'something' from the Titans that they went into full god mode, so I think it is worth noting. But if they were already gods by that point, then that would imply Mythal's people (and probably Mythal herself) were not opposed to simply calling the gods "leaders". Which would mesh with what little we know of the relationship between Fen'Harel and Mythal as allies. This would presumably apply to any dwarves that were down there too, but that assumes they were literate or knowledgeable in the elvhen language and its relevant meaning.
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