inherit
11247
0
1,639
Buckeldemon
Now stealin' more kidz.
1,200
July 2019
buckeldemon
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by Buckeldemon on Dec 28, 2020 17:26:23 GMT
So may be the secret to preventing the ascension of the last two Old Gods is to locate their respective High Priests, who are presumably still wandering around the Deep Roads looking for them. Hmm, if that is the case, I wonder if the one who was supposedly killed and eaten by a colleague has already awoken "his" particular Archdemon.
|
|
inherit
∯ Oh Loredy...
455
0
26,699
gervaise21
10,821
August 2016
gervaise21
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights
|
Post by gervaise21 on Dec 28, 2020 18:19:01 GMT
Possibly or alternatively one of the last two Old Gods is lacking a High Priest. I do favour the former though. Not only that but if the wardens have taken every Arch-demon corpse to Weisshaupt or major parts of it, as they did Andoral, this could explain why the darkspawn routinely appear in the Anderfels because the Magisters are wandering around underneath Weishauppt still looking for their dead god.
|
|
telanadas
N3
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Mass Effect Andromeda
Posts: 317 Likes: 619
inherit
11510
0
619
telanadas
317
May 2020
mistberry
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by telanadas on Dec 29, 2020 5:22:38 GMT
Possibly or alternatively one of the last two Old Gods is lacking a High Priest. That's an intereting theory. It has just reminded me of the fact that Morrigan called herself high priest after drinking from Mythal's well. 🤔
|
|
inherit
1033
0
May 18, 2024 11:25:46 GMT
31,369
colfoley
16,647
Aug 17, 2016 10:19:37 GMT
August 2016
colfoley
|
Post by colfoley on Dec 29, 2020 8:10:16 GMT
I've long wondered if there was a significance to where the Arch-demon emerged in each Blight. However, I question the assertion that the 1st Blight began in the north and east of Tevinter. I've hunted around for a reference that says this but to date have been unsuccessful. All the references I can find point to the fact the the 1st Blight began underground and it was only after the dwarves had been decimated that the darkspawn started to appear on the surface anywhere that there was an exit point from the Deep Roads. Given the close connection between the dwarves and the Imperium it is hardly surprising that they rose up at multiple points across the Imperium. Likewise, I can find no reference to where exactly Dumat first surfaced, which would presumably be not that far from his prison, although again that is not guaranteed. It would seem that Urthemiel's prison was under Heidrun Thaig which is roughly in the north to centre of Ferelden, whereas the darkspawn first started to emerge in the far south of the country. Initially the Arch-demon wasn't seen on the surface at all, so would appear to have remained travelling underground, which is where we see it not far from Orzammar, also in the north, so I don't know what to make of that but it is quite possible that the darkspawn start surfacing independently of the Arch-demon, which is why they are reported at multiple points in other Blights. The 4th Blight seemed particularly strange as Andoral seemed focussed on the east side off Thedas, whereas there was a major insurgence in the Anderfels on the west. Could that be linked to the fact that the main Grey Warden base is there? The 2nd Blight was said to have started in the Anderfels and yet there was a major presence of darkspawn in the south at various points across Orlais. What is peculiar about the 5th Blight is that not only was it the shortest by far but also the only place where darkspawn emerged, so far as we have been told, was in Ferelden. This is quite unlike the other blights where the darkspawn started appearing in several widespread locations. What I wondered is if it had anything to do with the Magisters Sidereal. If we ignore the Chantry dogma, we know that Urthemiel was awoken by the Architect. According to the Canticle of Silence, the Architect of Beauty was the name given to the High Priest of Urthemiel. So was it merely coincidence that he was the one to awaken him, or is it possible that the Architect was drawn to the Old God by a sub-conscious connection because he was his high priest but due to his amnesia he wasn't aware of this consciously? Then the Architect remained in the general area of Ferelden, although he stayed out of sight during the actual blight. Could it be that he initially went into the deep south? So what if the necessary component to waking/freeing the Arch-demons was not simply darkspawn tunneling through to their prison but their respective high priest making contact with them? Then since the High-priest seemed to be able to attract darkspawn to them, if they then went in a different direction to the Arch-demon, or simply lost track of them in the Deep Roads, this could account for why the darkspawn appear in other locations. When you also consider that initially there would have been 7 Magisters Sidereal wandering around, possibly all of them afflicted by some sort of amnesia so they had no idea why they were compelled to take a particular direction (towards their own Arch-demon), that could account for why the darkspawn seemed so widespread. It would also explain why there was less time between the first four blights than there was until the fifth. Essentially it took the Architect much longer to make contact with Urthemiel, whilst the other Magisters Sidereal, with the exception of Corypheus, may have gone to ground somewhere, possibly close to where their Old God was slain (although there is a suggestion in a codex that three of them were wandering around together at one time and then one ate another). Note, the Grey Wardens used the corpse of Dumat to attract Corypheus into their trap. So may be the secret to preventing the ascension of the last two Old Gods is to locate their respective High Priests, who are presumably still wandering around the Deep Roads looking for them. I would also mention here that I am to some extent ignoring what happened with Corypheus in DAI. In Legacy he was most definitely meant to be attracting darkspawn to his location, presumably because he was giving off a calling similar to that of the Arch-demons. It was this ability that he used against the Grey Wardens, yet despite the fact that it was amplified by the Nightmare demon to reach over a much wider area then normal, it didn't seem to be drawing darkspawn to the surface in any appreciable numbers, as should have been the case. However, we never did discover exactly where his hideout was, so I suppose it is possible that actually this was underground and so the majority of the darkspawn would have been attracted to that location using the Deep Roads, hence us not encountering them in large numbers on the surface. I do like this theory because it does give a solid explanation for why it has taken each Arch Demon so long to awaken after the last one. One incoherrent darkspawn magister needing to awaken them makes a lot more sense needing to take centuries to awaken them then the entirety of the hoard. Of course the set up for the Blights have always bothered me especially the older ones. The amount of destruction that was wrought upon Ferelden in a year of a blight which hadn't even truly gotten going yet...and yet the previous Blights took centuries. I would think the entirety of Thedas would be a barren wasteland in such circumstances. Especially given that it took us only days to cross Ferelden for the Battle of Denerim. So yeah, time and movement is not this series' strong point.
|
|
inherit
∯ Oh Loredy...
455
0
26,699
gervaise21
10,821
August 2016
gervaise21
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights
|
Post by gervaise21 on Dec 29, 2020 11:22:50 GMT
I would think the entirety of Thedas would be a barren wasteland in such circumstances. Yes, that doesn't make much sense, particularly considering the 1st Blight lasted around 200 years. Was that from when they first appeared in the Deep Roads or on the surface? If the latter and they pollute everything they touch, you would have thought at the very least everyone would have starved to death through their crops being blighted. Minrathous withstood a seige but they only have enough storage space for a year's worth of food supplies. Even if their population was smaller then, so it lasted longer, eventually it would have run out. The Grey Wardens weren't founded until it had been going for a century. The Anderfels, which has more than its fair share of darkspawn insurgence, is largely a blighted wasteland, so that is in keeping with what we know about their effect on the land. However, other legends indicate that it only affected certain nations, principally what is now known as Tevinter and adjoining countries. Ferelden seems hardly affected at all during the first century, with the problems there associated with the feud between Morrighan'nan and Luthias Dwarfson. So it would seem that the darkspawn did tend to congregate in specific areas and stayed there for a prolonged period, for example in the 5th Blight they seemed to set up base in Lothering and that is why the area there was so polluted. According to Last Flight, during the 4th Blight it would seem the Arch-demon spent most of its time around Antiva City and the eastern coast with its horde circling round through the Freemarches but not really going further west than Starkhaven. It states that Orlais was hardly affected at all, which is why they didn't send an official force to assist, just lone Chevaliers and the same was true of Tevinter, yet there was a major force of darkspawn affecting the Anderfels. So why the split with such a large unaffected area in between? Something had to be keeping the darkspawn in the Anderfels and it strikes me that it was either the presence of the Warden HQ or some other unknown factor. Which is why I came up with the idea of a befuddled Magister, possibly the Madman of Chaos whose god Zazikel was said to have arisen over there, still wandering around in the vicinity, particularly if he could sense the remains of his god somewhere above ground. So yeah, time and movement is not this series' strong point. I've repeatedly point that one out in the past. Yet, it is possible to explain the discrepancies if you give it a bit of thought and still keep it consistent with the lore. It is just a pity that the writers have never bothered to do so. Probably because in other cases they just don't seem that worried if their new ideas contradict older ones. Take the history of Marethari in WoT2 compared with the history of Mahariel's parents and the clan given in DAO. They just don't match up, unless you are willing to accept the Dalish Warden is around 50 years old at the start of the Blight and yet still apparently considered too young to be told what happened to their parents.
|
|
Blaze
N3
Everyone seem normal till you get to know them
Posts: 893 Likes: 952
inherit
1150
0
Mar 26, 2023 11:03:39 GMT
952
Blaze
Everyone seem normal till you get to know them
893
Aug 23, 2016 12:15:31 GMT
August 2016
blaze
|
Post by Blaze on Dec 30, 2020 9:09:30 GMT
the protagonist of dragon age 4 will defeat fen'harel by tricking him into drinking tea.
|
|
midnight tea
Twitter Guru
gateway beverage
Posts: 7,095 Likes: 16,599
inherit
gateway beverage
109
0
16,599
midnight tea
7,095
August 2016
midnighttea
|
Post by midnight tea on Dec 30, 2020 17:08:33 GMT
the protagonist of dragon age 4 will defeat fen'harel by tricking him into drinking tea. ..with polonium in it?
|
|
Highwayman667
N3
"In uncertainty, find infinite possibility"
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire
Posts: 522 Likes: 722
inherit
11507
0
Jun 22, 2021 18:16:33 GMT
722
Highwayman667
"In uncertainty, find infinite possibility"
522
May 10, 2020 13:11:01 GMT
May 2020
highwayman667
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire
|
Post by Highwayman667 on Dec 31, 2020 14:38:37 GMT
The Dragon Age saga will end with a visit from "the heavens"
|
|
fairdragon
N3
Games: Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate
Posts: 953 Likes: 406
inherit
11611
0
May 17, 2024 10:49:52 GMT
406
fairdragon
953
Jul 30, 2020 17:14:13 GMT
July 2020
fairdragon
Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate
|
Post by fairdragon on Jan 3, 2021 12:40:04 GMT
I'd like to point out that the Fade has been pretty consistently (even if not overtly) linked to elements of fire and air, while Titans to earth and water. So this may just not be about the dragons (also, not all dragons in that universe use fire). I've always suspected that Titans/Stone and Fade may be two sides of the same coin; a duality of sorts that are interlinked with one another. After all lyrium - the source of magic on Thedas's side - is Titan's blood and it is a substance that is connected with the Fade (I mean... magic IS the Fade, essentially, so that's kinda a given). Also, if the Blight is indeed linked with Titans, it may be the equivalent of Fade's Void. I'd also posit that ancient elvhen weren't just dragon form stealers - I think they WERE dragons and that at the time they may have been little to no distinction between the two. I wouldn't be surprised if dragon was the first or most powerful form of the First of the People, hence why it may be considered sacred, or why only Evanuris or whomever they favored was allowed to use that form while those of lower rank seem to have been punished for that. So, here's my craziest theory for now - I think the idea that many creatures we see today (dragons, halla, etc) may have been elves/spirits/a lot more sentient once, only the magical conundrum during the Veil creation (and potentially many deeds of Evanuris during wars and subjugation of people under their rule) may have 'locked' them into one form and they forgot who they are. It's not an uncommon trope in fiction. Nnnnot really? Solas mentions that there was a big war that has eventually elevated them on position of godhood and all signs point to the conflict with Titans to be that war. At that time those who later became Evanuris may have been considered powerful leaders who may have led elves to victory, but that was probably some time before Evanuris were even a thing. While I agree that locking under earth may be the way to imprison powerful creatures at time of Evanuris I don't necessarily think that they simply imprisoned dragons because they wanted to replace/impersonate them, given that I don't think the Evanuris were mere dragon impersonators. Whoever they may have imprisoned - maybe in form of dragons - were likely their political rivals or whoever else they wanted to eliminate, subjugate or... well... bury. I'd also like to point out that while the Titans are very closely associated with earth and stone itself they were probably the first ones to be entirely buried underground, imprisoned and then cultivated - there's a substantial amount of suggestions here and there that Titans/their power may have been treated as nourishment for magical, enormous plants which played a very important role in Elvhen culture (especially ginormous trees). The whole 'elves are close to nature' thing doesn't really seem as innocuous if one pays attention to such details It may even be that plants may have played a vital role in literally sustaining the Elvhan civilization and those plants themselves may have been sustaining on whoever an whatever the Elves have buried underground and intended to drain Makes me wonder if the Forbidden Ones are the Old Gods and the Forgotten ones are the Titans...probably not though, the numbers don't seem to match. I think either 1. forgotten ones = old gods (mythal is a born forgotten one and the 8th old god) o 2. elven gods = old gods ( double blight)
|
|
fairdragon
N3
Games: Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate
Posts: 953 Likes: 406
inherit
11611
0
May 17, 2024 10:49:52 GMT
406
fairdragon
953
Jul 30, 2020 17:14:13 GMT
July 2020
fairdragon
Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate
|
Post by fairdragon on Jan 3, 2021 13:22:18 GMT
What if the Old God Dragons are Great Dragons? Even the regular animal intelligence High Dragons have cults so imagine what a sentient Dragon could inspire? (Assuming they are sentient, I wish I could find my copy of the silent grove and check the wording describing them) Perhaps the Old Gods are already tainted and thats why darkspawn are drawn to them but not to the ones in the grove? I'm a little bit wary about lore found in that comic series. Whilst on the face of it we are told that official storybooks, etc, are canon, even lore found in the games can be changed later with the explanation of differing interpretations of history, inaccurate transmission, etc. The information on Great Dragons comes from two sources in the comic series, Yvaanna, a daughter of Flemeth, so you might think would have got her facts right, so long as Flemeth told her the complete truth (which is unlikely) and Arishok Sten, whose information allegedly came from the Tome of Koslun and Qunari lore. Whilst I can imagine them knowing something of the origins of their own race and its connection with dragons, I do wonder how much else was simply second hand information. For example, the story of Calendhad, who was around nearly a century before the Qunari landed in Thedas, so how did they know about his origins? Anyway, that there were people who wanted to preserve the dragons seems likely. Given their association with the Old Gods they did start being persecuted on a grand scale. So providing a safe haven that was protected by magic, does seem likely and if Flemeth/Mythal was behind its creation, it is even more credible. Yavana says that many of the lesser dragons died in their sleep, presumably from old age. However, the Great Dragons seem to have survived and this is likely because they were drawing sustenance from the Fade as the Dreamer elves do. It is possible they entered the sanctuary at a much earlier stage than the persecution of ordinary dragons. Yavana says that the dragons once ruled the skies. This could fit any of the scenarios we have considered. It could mean they were transformed elves or the Evanuris were originally dragons. It could mean they ruled the literal skies or the "sky" of the Fade. We now know she was telling the truth that there was time before the Veil. However, she also says that the " blood of dragons is the blood of the world". What did she mean by this? If anything can be described as the blood of the world, it is lyrium. Yet this comes from titans. Are titans and dragons related in some way? She also says that in destroying the dragons mankind would destroy itself. Again, what did she mean by this? We know dragons are resistant to the Blight so are dragons, specifically Great Dragons, going to be important in saving the world from the Blight? Or was this just a dead end/red herring that is never going to be relevant in the future plot, particularly now David Gaider is no longer part of the writing team? I think this is for me 1. The dragon rule the skies before the elven gods role, because i haven't hear of them all to be a sort of dragon. Blood of the world??? I don't think she means lyrium, maybe she mean spirits????? What the Arishok Sten says about Great Dragons and the Old Gods may be relevant. According to the Tome of Koslun the Old Gods were like unto dragons as the first human kings were like unto ordinary men. The Old Gods granted power to their worshippers in exchange from sacrifices of blood. So it is clear that the Old Gods definitely weren't just extra big dragons. We already knew that Dumat is said to have taught blood magic to his followers and other Old Gods seem to have required blood sacrifices (not necessarily human) in return for their aid/knowledge. (See Canticle of Threnodies 6). The early Neromenians were probably Reavers as well, probably being given this knowledge by the old gods. However, we know ordinary High Dragon blood and may be even lesser dragon too, is sufficient to create a Reaver. It has never been clear what long term effects this might have on the person's DNA but if Great Dragons were once more common in the world, then surely Calenhad would not be the only person who had passed on the effects to their offspring, so there could be any number of people with dragon bloodlines running around in the world. So I think that particular plot line will not be carried forward and that is likely the last we will hear of it. I think that the old gods are the dragons which ruled the sky. I think they are shapeshifter dragons like mythal. The Neromenians were known as the dragon's children and fighting with fire was also associated with them, hence the Maker recommending his faithful anoint their fields with water before the battle to prevent them being set alight. The original patron gods of the Neromenian kingdom, who were the first to reject the Maker in favour of the Old Gods, were Dumat - God of Silence; Toth - God of Fire and Lusacan - God of Shadow/Darkness. When they fought the Planasene, their king despaired of repelling them with the Maker's help so turned to a goddess for assistance. The blood sacrifice seemed as much a demonstration of faith in her and rejection of the Maker as actually providing power of itself. Whatever the case, with her knowledge/assistance the army of the Neromenians seems to have been inflicted with disease that halted their progress and thenceforth the Planasene transferred the allegiance to this goddess. If she was also an Old God then it is likely they received assistance from Razikale, the goddess of mysteries. this scream mythal for me!!!! I think Great Dragons are...or at least some of them are...male. I am not altogether certain that the Old Gods gender was what they claimed for themselves or what their respective worshippers attributed to them, depending on their own cultural bias towards male or female leaders. At least two of the Old Gods appear to have changed gender over time as their sphere of influence also altered. Andoral - Dragon God of Slaves was formerly known as the Old God of Unity as associated with marriage and coming of age. Their feast day was in mid summer as is still honoured as Summerday. These are usually aspects more commonly associated with female gods, particularly goddesses of fertility, so it may be both gender and role changed over time. Zazikel - Known in modern times as the Dragon of Chaos due to Hessarian's description of their High Priest in the Canticle of Silence, Zazikel was actually a goddess originally and the Old God of Freedom. No doubt the Imperium found it necessary to alter this aspect when they started to keep slaves en mass. Razikale - Old God of Mysteries and patroness of Minrathous. Before the Imperium was formed the High Queen of the kingdom of Tevinter was also High Priestess of Razikale so it seems likely that at that time Razikale was seen as female. What I find most intriguing is why did the Old Gods stop communicating with their faithful? There are hints this was occurring before Corypheus and Co entered the Black City and could even be why the enterprise was planned in the first place, not through hubris but to find out why the gods had fallen silent. The memories of both Corypheus and his servant seem to suggest that people were losing faith in their priesthood and the Old Gods before the Blight. So was this because of the lack of communication by the Old Gods or was the reduction in faith the reason the Old Gods stopped communicating as a punishment? Was this collective silence something engineered by Dumat (God of Silence) and all part of their plan for gaining their freedom? If it was before i would say the veil stop them. If after the blight made them hide. Certainly at some period Razikale went silent on her priesthood and they were so desperate they went deep into the Frostback Mountains in the hope of making contact again. Since she has not yet arisen as an arch-demon this could not be the reason so what did happen? Did the other Old Gods not respond with help during the first Blight because the armies of darkspawn were led by Dumat? After his defeat did they in fact resume contact but their priesthood were driven underground by persecution, so there are small groups of cultists who are still in contact with the last two Old Gods? This seems unlikely but without a definite date for the Razikale priesthood locating to southern Ferelden there is no way of knowing whether this was before, during or after the First Blight. I think the blight poisons dragons differently than other creatures. And the old gods aka dragons know that they hide in there prision where solas blocked them and they hope someone find a solution for the blight. For me it is quite interessting that mythal want to collect all old god souls. there musst be something special and honestly them to the elven gods she want vengend on, making no sense.
|
|
fairdragon
N3
Games: Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate
Posts: 953 Likes: 406
inherit
11611
0
May 17, 2024 10:49:52 GMT
406
fairdragon
953
Jul 30, 2020 17:14:13 GMT
July 2020
fairdragon
Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate
|
Post by fairdragon on Jan 3, 2021 13:36:57 GMT
I think the nature of Mythal probably altered over time. She is also known as a mother goddess and is depicted cradling her children in some mosaics. She is also said to have been born from the sea or more specifically the tears of the earth mother brought on by the destruction caused by Elgar'nan's battle with the Sun. Essentially that Dalish legend has her arbitrating in a dispute. So Mythal the mother is the one depicted as the peacemaker, teacher and discipliner of the children on a day to day basis, whilst Elgar'nan, the father figure, is the more authoritarian one who dolls out punishments for more serious offences. Elgar'nan translates as "Spirit of Vengeance" so he was thought of as the vengeful one of the two of them. So clearly her "death" had an adverse effect on Mythal's spirit as she now seems obsessed with vengeance. Even so, she still seems to take an interest in the Dalish and strangely enough does not hold them in the same contempt that Solas does for continuing to pursue their religion. Of course it could be that it was them remembering her constantly in their prayers that assisted in her in maintaining her identity/memory when she was in the Fade, since that would appear to be how it works for the Avvar gods. As for the other gods, I await more evidence as to whether they were all collectively responsible for Mythal's death. Solas can hardly be regarded as an unbiased witness to their character as he was in opposition to them at the end and may even have not been on the best of terms when he was Mythal's side-kick. Parallels were drawn between the Evanuris and the Magisters of the Imperium. Are all the Magisters evil? I am sure there is a great deal more to the story than we have been told thus far. I myself are very careful what the elven lore says. I wouldn't be surprised if we find out, that the majority was passed down incorrectly.
|
|
fairdragon
N3
Games: Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate
Posts: 953 Likes: 406
inherit
11611
0
May 17, 2024 10:49:52 GMT
406
fairdragon
953
Jul 30, 2020 17:14:13 GMT
July 2020
fairdragon
Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate
|
Post by fairdragon on Jan 3, 2021 13:38:50 GMT
I haven read all comments in this thread. sorry if that is in here, but do you know the connection between solas paintings????
|
|
inherit
∯ Oh Loredy...
455
0
26,699
gervaise21
10,821
August 2016
gervaise21
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights
|
Post by gervaise21 on Jan 3, 2021 14:04:01 GMT
I myself are very careful what the elven lore says. I wouldn't be surprised if we find out, that the majority was passed down incorrectly. It depends what you mean by incorrect. They remembered that Fen'Harel shut away the gods entirely correctly. However, they seemed to think they still trusted him at the time he did so, which we know to be untrue. However, he could still have tricked them into his trap. I must admit what had me perplexed was how the death of Mythal had been completely forgotten, so only her priesthood and Solas seemed aware of it. So if Fen'Harel's rebellion happened as a result of her death, surely others should have been aware of it? Why didn't the other Evanuris place the blame on Fen'Harel? However, David Gaider seemed to say in his early posts about Dalish lore that they acquired it by reading fragments of writing they found in ruins rather than an oral tradition that had been passed down through the years. This being the case, it does explain the gaps in the knowledge and why they had no idea about the excesses of the Evanuris towards the end. Another thing that has me puzzled is how an elven lament about the after effects of Fen'Harel's war found it's way into Alamarri poetry. The original text was found in the Temple of Mythal but that had been closed off for thousands of years and the sentinels had attacked anyone who approached it. So if the lament was written by someone outside of the priesthood, how did it finds its way in? If the lament was written by the priesthood, how did it finds its way out into the wider world?
|
|
inherit
∯ Oh Loredy...
455
0
26,699
gervaise21
10,821
August 2016
gervaise21
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights
|
Post by gervaise21 on Jan 3, 2021 14:14:54 GMT
sorry if that is in here, but do you know the connection between solas paintings???? The first one seems to show him raising the Veil and cutting off the Evanuris somewhere inside the Black City. The figure on the right appears to be holding the orb, which we must assume was part of the process. The second one seems to show him removing the vallaslin from elves fleeing the Evanuris. There he seems to be dressed in a ritual costume that conceals his true identity behind the Dread Wolf disguise. The third is said to be a self-portrait, in which case it may be showing that his Dread Wolf persona dominates in the Fade (the dark area with triangles) whereas the ordinary figure is what holds sway outside it. The last one shows a battle with a titan or possibly a guardian such as confronts us in the Descent. It isn't clear whether the orb was used in the fight or whether it was acquired as a result of it. Mythal is said to be the one who defeated the "pillars of the earth" but it is entirely possible she did this with the aid of Fen'Harel. In some ways it could be argued that time wise they should be in reverse order as the bottom one is the oldest.
|
|
inherit
1398
0
3,666
Absafraginlootly
"Abso-fraggin-lutely!" ~ Captain John Sheridan and Satai Delenn
1,385
September 2016
absafraginlootly
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
|
Post by Absafraginlootly on Jan 5, 2021 3:04:50 GMT
Does anyone have a source for Elgar'nan meaning Spirit of Vengeance?
I've found 2 sources for Elgar meaning spirit but nothing for nan meaning vengeance. I went to the elven language section on the dragon age wiki and it sais nan means vengeance but its source isn't a book or game its just the elgar'nan wiki page which unless I'm missing something doesn't say anything about it. Is it just an assumption that if he's the God of Vengeance the his name must be Spirit of Vengeance?
Fen'harel is the god of trickery and deception (or rebellion in other circles), but his title doesn't translate into The Dread Deceiver or The Dread Trickster, nor the Rebel Wolf. And his name Solas means Pride - so it doesn't necsarily follow that the thing they're most famous for is going to be an evanuris' title or name. It occured to me while looking for a source that Elgar'nans' name could mean pretty much anything! Spirit of Glory, Father-Spirit etc. (If anyone has actual source for nan = vengeance I'd love to see it though)
So I decided to go looking for every instance of nan I could find to see if I could find a source for vengeance or figure out a different meaning. There were 2 long words that translated into phrases containing nan and 3 instances of it in a short word that translated into another single short word.* In the later it seems unlikely to have an independent meaning, but in the former the meanings seem related and perhaps more promsing.
Elvhen is 'the people', Elvhenan is 'the place of the people'. WoTv1 p27. So here nan = place
'Dirthara lothlenan'as - Seek truth in a forgotten land' Mir Da'len Somniar, A traditional Dalish Lullaby WoTv2 p.217. And here based on its previous use and this translation, it looks like nan = land
And whipping up the Spirits sources for completions sake -
'in elgar sa vir mana - Take spirit from the long ago'. Suledin (Endure) WoT1 p.29
Elgar'arla means: Spirit-trap; a binding circle to hold a spirit or demon. Dragon Age: The Masked Empire, Chapter 12. (taking the wikis word for this one since theres no pg number)
So it looks like Elgar'nan could mean something along the lines of 'Spirit of the Land/Place'. With what exactly depending on what its combined with, though that might be on the reliability of the translation.
Thats my theory of today.
*Enansal: Blessing, Renan: Voice, Vhenan: Heart; often used as a term of endearment
|
|
yogsothoth
N2
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Mass Effect Andromeda
Posts: 127 Likes: 217
inherit
10522
0
May 14, 2024 22:31:28 GMT
217
yogsothoth
127
October 2018
yogsothoth
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by yogsothoth on Jan 5, 2021 3:20:58 GMT
Pretty sure -an is the suffix meaning place, not -nan. See Arlathan (place of love), Revesan (place of freedom), Vir'abelasan (place of the way of sorrows).
|
|
telanadas
N3
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Mass Effect Andromeda
Posts: 317 Likes: 619
inherit
11510
0
619
telanadas
317
May 2020
mistberry
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by telanadas on Jan 5, 2021 3:38:36 GMT
Does anyone have a source for Elgar'nan meaning Spirit of Vengeance?
I've found 2 sources for Elgar meaning spirit but nothing for nan meaning vengeance. I went to the elven language section on the dragon age wiki and it sais nan means vengeance but its source isn't a book or game its just the elgar'nan wiki page which unless I'm missing something doesn't say anything about it. Is it just an assumption that if he's the God of Vengeance the his name must be Spirit of Vengeance? I remember thinking about this a while ago and wondering if his name meant something different. I think people got the idea he was a spirit of vengeance based on the Mythal codex: Whenever one the People wronged another, they would not call on Elgar'nan to avenge them, for his fury would destroy all it touched. Mythal saw this bring strife among the People, and went to Elgar'nan; she offered to deliver justice when the People warred amongst themselves. Elgar'nan saw her wisdom and agreed, binding all to abide by her verdicts.
Some petitioning Mythal for justice hid jealousy, accusing those who had done them no wrong. She saw their lies, and struck them down. Others petitioning Mythal for justice burned with wrath for imagined slights. She saw their weak hearts, and struck them down. Those coming to her with clear minds and open hearts were granted judgment and protection, and Mythal harried their enemies until the end of their days.
—Story of the elven god Mythal, author unknownHe is also known as the 'sun' the dwarves feared and I think it is implied from Fairel's story that Mythal protected them from his rage on the surface? I got the impression Mythal took on Elgar'nan's role and that is why she is known as the goddess of justice and vengeance. Her altar of vengeance was located in a very out of the way place in the Arbor Wilds (she had no vengeance themed stuff at her temple either) so it seems the vengeance part of her was only for the desperate and a role she conducted in secret.
|
|
inherit
Scribbles
185
0
May 18, 2024 10:30:44 GMT
30,288
Hanako Ikezawa
22,384
August 2016
hanakoikezawa
|
Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jan 5, 2021 11:12:01 GMT
Does anyone have a source for Elgar'nan meaning Spirit of Vengeance?
I've found 2 sources for Elgar meaning spirit but nothing for nan meaning vengeance. I went to the elven language section on the dragon age wiki and it sais nan means vengeance but its source isn't a book or game its just the elgar'nan wiki page which unless I'm missing something doesn't say anything about it. Is it just an assumption that if he's the God of Vengeance the his name must be Spirit of Vengeance? I remember thinking about this a while ago and wondering if his name meant something different. I think people got the idea he was a spirit of vengeance based on the Mythal codex: Whenever one the People wronged another, they would not call on Elgar'nan to avenge them, for his fury would destroy all it touched. Mythal saw this bring strife among the People, and went to Elgar'nan; she offered to deliver justice when the People warred amongst themselves. Elgar'nan saw her wisdom and agreed, binding all to abide by her verdicts.
Some petitioning Mythal for justice hid jealousy, accusing those who had done them no wrong. She saw their lies, and struck them down. Others petitioning Mythal for justice burned with wrath for imagined slights. She saw their weak hearts, and struck them down. Those coming to her with clear minds and open hearts were granted judgment and protection, and Mythal harried their enemies until the end of their days.
—Story of the elven god Mythal, author unknownHe is also known as the 'sun' the dwarves feared and I think it is implied from Fairel's story that Mythal protected them from his rage on the surface? I got the impression Mythal took on Elgar'nan's role and that is why she is known as the goddess of justice and vengeance. Her altar of vengeance was located in a very out of the way place in the Arbor Wilds (she had no vengeance themed stuff at her temple either) so it seems the vengeance part of her was only for the desperate and a role she conducted in secret. Perhaps she was trying to usurp power, and that’s why the other Evanuris killed her. But of course to those devoted to her like Solas her misdeeds are ignored or simply unknown so that to them it was the Evanuris who were the wrongdoers.
|
|
azarhal
N6
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Posts: 7,991 Likes: 22,085
inherit
1519
0
May 18, 2024 11:00:44 GMT
22,085
azarhal
7,991
Sept 9, 2016 12:15:16 GMT
September 2016
azarhal
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
|
Post by azarhal on Jan 5, 2021 12:07:04 GMT
I remember thinking about this a while ago and wondering if his name meant something different. I think people got the idea he was a spirit of vengeance based on the Mythal codex: Whenever one the People wronged another, they would not call on Elgar'nan to avenge them, for his fury would destroy all it touched. Mythal saw this bring strife among the People, and went to Elgar'nan; she offered to deliver justice when the People warred amongst themselves. Elgar'nan saw her wisdom and agreed, binding all to abide by her verdicts.
Some petitioning Mythal for justice hid jealousy, accusing those who had done them no wrong. She saw their lies, and struck them down. Others petitioning Mythal for justice burned with wrath for imagined slights. She saw their weak hearts, and struck them down. Those coming to her with clear minds and open hearts were granted judgment and protection, and Mythal harried their enemies until the end of their days.
—Story of the elven god Mythal, author unknownHe is also known as the 'sun' the dwarves feared and I think it is implied from Fairel's story that Mythal protected them from his rage on the surface? I got the impression Mythal took on Elgar'nan's role and that is why she is known as the goddess of justice and vengeance. Her altar of vengeance was located in a very out of the way place in the Arbor Wilds (she had no vengeance themed stuff at her temple either) so it seems the vengeance part of her was only for the desperate and a role she conducted in secret. Perhaps she was trying to usurp power, and that’s why the other Evanuris killed her. But of course to those devoted to her like Solas her misdeeds are ignored or simply unknown so that to them it was the Evanuris who were the wrongdoers. It has always been my impression. edit: Doesn't mean they others didn't try to do it either. But my impression of the whole thing is that they came together against a threat (or to conquer something) and eventually started to conquer each others when the other threats were gone.
|
|
inherit
2754
0
May 18, 2024 10:33:28 GMT
5,961
Son of Dorn
Fortifying everything.
6,279
Jan 11, 2017 14:17:27 GMT
January 2017
doomlolz
Dragon Age Inquisition
|
Post by Son of Dorn on Jan 5, 2021 12:14:18 GMT
The only way you'll beat Solas is... In a rap battle, 8 Mile style.
|
|
telanadas
N3
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Mass Effect Andromeda
Posts: 317 Likes: 619
inherit
11510
0
619
telanadas
317
May 2020
mistberry
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by telanadas on Jan 5, 2021 14:03:08 GMT
Perhaps she was trying to usurp power, and that’s why the other Evanuris killed her. But of course to those devoted to her like Solas her misdeeds are ignored or simply unknown so that to them it was the Evanuris who were the wrongdoers. That's what I thought too...but I was thinking about it more recently and I question the evanuris' motive for killing her. Solas says their motive was that they lusted after power, but they all had effective immortality by this point it would seem. Falon'Din only started wars to gain more followers. So I think they probably were all power mad by this point, but it really could have been Fen'Harel that tricked them into betraying Mythal in the first place. When Solas mentions trusting friends is a mistake, he could be referring to being betrayed...or being the untrustworthy betrayer. Because if what Solas says is true, the evanuris' act of killing Mythal also means they would be exposing their own mortality. This was one secret they fought to protect, as shown by the mosaics at Fen'Harel's sanctuary. Honestly the only person that clearly stood to gain anything from Mythal's death was Fen'Harel himself, because her death could have been used as an example for his rebellion. If he started his rebellion after Mythal's death, the mosaics at his sanctuary would make a lot more sense because he was actively trying to expose the lies of the evanuris' effective immortality. It would also explain why the evanuris had propaganda about him littered in the elven ruins, because it could have been after the fallout of Mythal's death when they realised Fen'Harel completely manipulated them. Maybe Solas and Mythal worked together and she agreed to be his sacrifice. Or maybe Solas totally blindsided her and went against his friend...either way the situation seems more complicated than it appears and I really can't wait to see how they resolve all of this in DA4. I mostly wonder if Mythal knows how far the betrayal goes and if he had a hand in it at all. Because if Solas imprisoned the evanuris for killing Mythal as was their only 'fitting punishment', why did Mythal persist through the ages seeking the vengeance denied to her?
|
|
sandwichtern
N2
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Mass Effect Andromeda
Posts: 162 Likes: 517
inherit
10816
0
Sept 24, 2023 16:46:02 GMT
517
sandwichtern
162
Jan 21, 2019 22:42:10 GMT
January 2019
sandwichtern
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by sandwichtern on Jan 5, 2021 14:21:10 GMT
Does anyone have a source for Elgar'nan meaning Spirit of Vengeance? I've found 2 sources for Elgar meaning spirit but nothing for nan meaning vengeance. I went to the elven language section on the dragon age wiki and it sais nan means vengeance but its source isn't a book or game its just the elgar'nan wiki page which unless I'm missing something doesn't say anything about it. Is it just an assumption that if he's the God of Vengeance the his name must be Spirit of Vengeance?
Fen'harel is the god of trickery and deception (or rebellion in other circles), but his title doesn't translate into The Dread Deceiver or The Dread Trickster, nor the Rebel Wolf. And his name Solas means Pride - so it doesn't necsarily follow that the thing they're most famous for is going to be an evanuris' title or name. It occured to me while looking for a source that Elgar'nans' name could mean pretty much anything! Spirit of Glory, Father-Spirit etc. (If anyone has actual source for nan = vengeance I'd love to see it though) So I decided to go looking for every instance of nan I could find to see if I could find a source for vengeance or figure out a different meaning. There were 2 long words that translated into phrases containing nan and 3 instances of it in a short word that translated into another single short word.* In the later it seems unlikely to have an independent meaning, but in the former the meanings seem related and perhaps more promsing.
Elvhen is 'the people', Elvhenan is 'the place of the people'. WoTv1 p27. So here nan = place
'Dirthara lothlenan'as - Seek truth in a forgotten land' Mir Da'len Somniar, A traditional Dalish Lullaby WoTv2 p.217. And here based on its previous use and this translation, it looks like nan = land
And whipping up the Spirits sources for completions sake -
'in elgar sa vir mana - Take spirit from the long ago'. Suledin (Endure) WoT1 p.29
Elgar'arla means: Spirit-trap; a binding circle to hold a spirit or demon. Dragon Age: The Masked Empire, Chapter 12. (taking the wikis word for this one since theres no pg number)
So it looks like Elgar'nan could mean something along the lines of 'Spirit of the Land/Place'. With what exactly depending on what its combined with, though that might be on the reliability of the translation.
Thats my theory of today.
*Enansal: Blessing, Renan: Voice, Vhenan: Heart; often used as a term of endearment
I very much doubt Elgar'nan's name directly translates to 'god/spirit of vengeance.' When the god in question is known for his volatile temper and has ability to strike down all his opposers, if I were his subject my first instinct (as a person with a healthy survival instinct) would be to refer to him with a more complimentary title. Like Solas having the personal name 'Pride' and the moniker 'Fen'Harel', I wonder if Elgar'nan also has a different personal name which hasn't survived to our modern Dragon age - perhaps because his worshippers weren't allowed to use it? It's regretable the elven language in DA games is a cipher, since you could do pretty awesome things with it if a little more thought was put into its creation. For example, compare the words elvhen ('our people') vhenan ('heart', an endearment ('a heart-let'?)), and vhenadahl ('the tree of the people'): so if we assume the words for 'people' and 'heart' are homonyms (words that have same spelling and pronunciation, in this case vhen), is the meaning of vhenadahl 'a heart tree' instead of 'the tree of the people' and, given what we know about lyrium and titans, does that mean something more ominous? Other thing people with little practise in foreign languages often are guilty of is to assume the grammatical rules are the same as in English. The vocabulary list in the wiki tells us the word elgara means 'the sun'. So does Elgar'nan's name indeed mean some kind of spirit or some sort of sun? Also, compare the names Elgar'nan and Ghilan'nain: if creators had taken a leaf out of Tolkien's book and used Welsh in creating the elvhen language, you could speculate how monosyllabic nouns with long 'a' vowel sound have the plural form 'ai' (see: brân 'crow', brain 'crows'), so nain could be the plural of nan. Pretty sure -an is the suffix meaning place, not -nan. See Arlathan (place of love), Revesan (place of freedom), Vir'abelasan (place of the way of sorrows). As 'I love you' translates Ar lath ma, the developers' claim that Arlathan translates to 'this place of love' stinks of 'I failed all my language classes' or it's a deliberate attempt distract us from the fact that the word arla means 'a trap' (see: elgar'arla 'a spirit-trap'). So what lies trapped in Arlathan?
|
|
inherit
∯ Oh Loredy...
455
0
26,699
gervaise21
10,821
August 2016
gervaise21
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights
|
Post by gervaise21 on Jan 5, 2021 17:11:44 GMT
Falon'Din only started wars to gain more followers I've pointed out previously that if he really was god of the dead then people have to die for him to have a purpose. If they were originally spirits then the Evanuris might have that single minded dedication to a particular aspect or cause that spirits are known for. So Andruil was a spirit of the hunt so naturally she is fixated with hunting. Since all elves were immortal, as in not dying natural deaths, the only way they could die was by accident, murder, disease or war. So Falon'Din beginning wars to "gain more followers" was just a natural consequence of his role. I did wonder if he tricked Andruil into hunting in the Void because he knew she would bring back disease with her. Certainly it was in his interests to create/spread the taint. With regard to Elgar'nan, I think his name probably did mean something other than Spirit of Vengeance. He was also known as the Firstborn of the Sun, so it is possible that Elgar was a shortening of Elgara, meaning sun, and 'nan may mean "son" or "born" or something similar. Would also suggest that if Vhenan = heart, then Vhenadahl could well mean Heart Tree as in heart of the people as the tree does seem symbolic of the unity of the elven people. Hence when the Wolf shut away the gods, there was civil war that resulted in a "ruined tree of the people". Or alternatively it represented their immortality, so the ruined (withered) tree equated to their newly acquired mortality. However, considering no one seems to have made a connection between the Veil and their loss of mortality, it seems unlikely that this symbolism would be used in connection with the actions of the Wolf, particularly considering where the text was found, whereas Abelas knew there had been civil war after the loss of Mythal and then the gods.
|
|
xerrai
N3
Posts: 842 Likes: 1,156
inherit
1451
0
1,156
xerrai
842
September 2016
xerrai
|
Post by xerrai on Jan 5, 2021 18:16:39 GMT
Perhaps she was trying to usurp power, and that’s why the other Evanuris killed her. But of course to those devoted to her like Solas her misdeeds are ignored or simply unknown so that to them it was the Evanuris who were the wrongdoers. I think they were all vying for power for one reason or another. Some of them wanted power for the sake of power, others because they wanted to shape the empire into something "better". Although like anyone trying to 'fix' or 'improve' an empire, that vision for what that future needs to look like tends to be up for debate. In Mythal's case, I would not be surprised if she wanted to usurp power from the others because she believed they were undeserving of it or because she honestly believed everything would be better if she was the sole evanuris in power (with Fen'Harel as an ally). Meanwhile Fen'Harel is around who hates the evanuris. Best case scenario was that he viewed Mythal as an exception because of her high moral fiber, with the worst case scenario being that he wanted to take down every evanuris so he can...I honestly don't know what. For all of his flaws, he genuinely doesn't seem interested in worship. He also doesn't seem like the sort to rule through power either given his strong values on freedom and free thought. Maybe he would have *ucked off, leaving the Empire completely godless and fending for themselves. Leaving him to roam around and use his power on any (perceived) injustice against free will. A "free" world. Still though, from what little we have seen of the evanuris, I am confident in saying that some of them should not have that sort of power. Figures like Ghilan'nan and Andruil for instance mostly seemed interested in thier hobbies (some of which actually seemed dangerous to the elvhen people) as opposed to actually ruling. I'm not conclusively saying they should have been killed for that interest, but I do think they should have been removed from power. Or usurped, if you prefer. Let them be advisors, researchers, or commanders. But not gods who are supposed to be ruling entire portions of an empire. Although given the probable nature of thier power, such an lessening of power likely could not be achieved conventionally. Which is to say nothing of thier likely reluctance to release that power.
|
|
inherit
∯ Oh Loredy...
455
0
26,699
gervaise21
10,821
August 2016
gervaise21
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights
|
Post by gervaise21 on Jan 5, 2021 19:15:04 GMT
In Mythal's case, I would not be surprised if she wanted to usurp power from the others because she believed they were undeserving of it or because she honestly believed everything would be better if she was the sole evanuris in power (with Fen'Harel as an ally). The odd thing about Mythal is that she didn't seem bothered unless it directly affected her. According to Solas she only took Falon'Din to task when he started to encroach on her lands but was content to leave him to bother the others. Apparently she and the other gods were content to let Andruil hunt as she pleased until they were worried she might hunt them, which is when Mythal took action. Then there is the whole business of Ghilan'nain and her monsters. Since Pride stopped her from killing her monsters of the sea, are we to assume this was Solas? So why did he stop her. Did Mythal direct him to? Remember Mythal was associated with the sea so did she want the monsters for herself? Meanwhile Fen'Harel is around who hates the evanuris. Whilst he claims that Mythal was the best of them, I do feel he objected to the whole idea of godhood for any of them, or was this only after they killed Mythal? We know by his own admission that he enjoyed court intrigue and I do not believe he got the reputation of a trickster only after he started his rebellion. I suspect he enjoyed playing one god/noble off against another whilst he was under her patronage.
|
|