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Post by Deleted on Feb 1, 2021 21:21:11 GMT
Oh, I understand that. I torture my own characters and I don’t care what my readers want in the end. I have a goal, what motivated me to write it in the first place, and I’m going to reach that goal no matter what. I like your attitude. I really do. But a character doesn’t have to die to be tragic. Like I said it would make sense, he doesn’t deserve a rainbow ending for the deaths he’s caused and if he wasn’t a romance I’d probably kill him myself but he is and that changes things for me. It’s a lot of factors: escapism, emotional investment ect but dying is easier than living. To me Solas’ tragedy is that he’s had to live with the decision he made, and if the redeem option is viable, then him having to elf-up and help the elves of this time as ‘punishment’ or whatever is a lot more interesting a concept than him lying dead and kicked into a hole. You are absolutely right about this. A character doesn’t have to die to be tragic. When you kill someone, make sure it makes sence and makes the story move forward. What I meant to say is, that I would not hesitate to kill a character out of fear of being criticised by the reader/player. But it's not a must. I always kill Anders but I was never invested in his character in 2. If it had happened in Awakening when I adored the crap out of him then it would have been much different. At least there’s an option in 2 for those that romanced him. If your character had been forced to kill him would that have served him better story-wise? Or your character? I can totally understand why some people can't stand Anders but I'm glad he is the way he is because it honestly reads as very realistic to me. However, for me as someone who romanced Anders there is no need to consider whether he deserves to die or not. And, to be honest: the same applies to Solas and his fate and future. We don't have to agree to everything they do, but we should understand their reasons. I feel I can say that the key to characters like Anders and Solas is empathy. As a player I don't want to make life-and-death-decisions based on ethical principles. It's because my character is not someone who has the right to do so. Who is she/he to judge? So, if my character had been forced to kill Anders then I really would die. But from the perspective of a writer it can absolutely make sence to force me to kill him. It depends on how he wants to continue with the story. But thanks to "stories untold" we will never know. (Note to self: "I adored the crap out of him" is a lovely expression. Must remember that one. )
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Post by ellehaym on Feb 1, 2021 21:22:16 GMT
I think the tone between DAO and DAI has changed quite significantly, so despite what DG envisioned I feel like DA4 will probably follow in the same vein of DAI, being colourful and 'fun' despite the pretty serious themes of slavery, death and impending world destruction. It's a weird contrast when you think about it, on one hand they are crafting all this intricate lore and writing about very serious issues, and on the other the MC in DAI is using bright and colourful magic to kill people and creatures without any real consequence (Dorian even cheerfully remarks about the body count in DAI). The lack of consequence in DAI did make it feel like a bit comic-like, I agree. That's how I see it, too. DA:I was way too colourful and cheerful, especially compared to DAO. It somehow reminds me of "Kingdoms of Amalur". Personally I would prefer to see a darker version of DA4 which would be more appropriate to the topics you mentioned earlier. Jon Renish had this to say while streaming DA:O So it looks like they're moving away from DA:O darker tone and "bleak choices"
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Post by Deleted on Feb 1, 2021 21:48:57 GMT
That's how I see it, too. DA:I was way too colourful and cheerful, especially compared to DAO. It somehow reminds me of "Kingdoms of Amalur". Personally I would prefer to see a darker version of DA4 which would be more appropriate to the topics you mentioned earlier. Jon Renish had this to say while streaming DA:O So it looks like they're moving away from DA:O darker tone and "bleak choices" Oh boy. Jon! Go and play The Witcher 3. There you learn how to be dark without being bleak.
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Post by fluffysmom on Feb 1, 2021 23:09:19 GMT
What I meant to say is, that I would not hesitate to kill a character out of fear of being criticised by the reader/player. But it's not a must.
Nor would I and I don’t expect them to. I don’t want them to be afraid of fan backlash. They should write the story they want to tell. That’s a very slippery slope and takes the fun out of the creative process. Writing (in most cases) should be selfish. What you want. If it’s fun for you, someone else will enjoy it. Anything else and it just becomes work. Dull and forced. Like cooking a recipe for food you don’t like. Pick one you do like and you’ll likely add your own touches to make it even more special.
That’s why I was simply curious if anyone could think of a ‘they’ve gone too far’ moment that might ruin their own enjoyment. Something you hope doesn’t happen at the very least.
Thank you for the discussion~ It did help me see a different side to it. I love hearing what people think, especially since I can be pretty stubborn in how I view things. It’s been the highlight of my day.
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Post by dadithinkimgay on Feb 12, 2021 16:21:54 GMT
*CSI:BSN intro begins* Matthew Goldman keeps mentioning moons on twitter. At first it seemed nothing out of the ordinary, as he mentioned the moon in regards to the new chinese lunar new year, but then he went on to tweet even more about moons, even Thedas own: Matthew Goldman @sergoldman "Did you ever notice it's always a Full Moon in Thedas? Clearly there are multiple moons on eliptical orbits. There's Small Full Moon --> Huge Full Moon. This is why navigating The Waking Sea is so darn tricky! Here is a sweet Moon Image by Andy Braise! MOOOOOOON!" The next day he tweeted how moons have a story by oddly comparing them to maps: Matthew Goldman @sergoldman"Maps are cool in a moon sort of way. They tell a story. Here's one that needs coloring in. It's inside the cover of "Last Flight". People on twitter are perplexed by his tweets. They are even wondering how Thedas' moon is always a full moon, and theorizing that the moon may not even move at all. That's very interesting to me, but I'm mostly intrigued because Solas has been depicted with the moon in his self portrait, Tower tarot card, AND is mentioned by his infamous name with the moon in The Emergent Compendium codex entry: "Two shadowed spheres among stars subtitled "aboofqp iboxE'kbC px bpmfizb kX""The random code has since been deciphered as " An eclipse as Fen'Harel stirred."I then noticed that the new backdrop for the logo looks like an minimalist sketch of an eclipse with two moons: In other words: two shadowed spheres among stars. So Goldman's odd mention of moons may be hinting for what's to come in DA4, and how the Thedas moons may play an important part. I don't know what it could be though - I'm not an astronomer and I can't be bothered to research lol, but doesn't a big shadow envelop whichever part of the earth is currently experiencing the eclipse? I'm not even sure how eclipse work tbh, but I know there is at least a visual effect and I wonder if that could be exploited by magical energy? Like a shadow can be targeted, say, by magical fire that destroys everything in the shadow? Also, if this eclipse is happening, where has Thedas second moon been? I always thought that there only being one moon visible was an oversight by the devs, but maybe it's for story purposes? What do you guys think about this?
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Feb 12, 2021 20:33:05 GMT
So what, Solas is copying Father from Fullmetal Alchemist: Brotherhood now? dadithinkimgay Yes an eclipse is when one astronomical object gets between two other ones. A solar eclipse is when the sun is blocked/eclipsed by the moon, and the moon’s shadow covers the part of Earth blocked. A lunar eclipse is when the Earth gets between the sun and the moon, casting its shadow on the moon. Solar Eclipse Lunar Eclipse
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Post by ellehaym on Feb 12, 2021 21:29:43 GMT
In one codex Mythal is said to have created a moon or at least seems to imply it dragonage.fandom.com/wiki/Codex_entry:_Mythal:_the_Great_ProtectorI also always though that the silver orb we see in the dread wolf rises mural looked like a moon. On a side note there's a constellation by the name of Fenrir and while my Norse mythology is hazy, I think it eats the sun or moon or both?
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Feb 12, 2021 21:34:15 GMT
So now even the universe is “because ancient elves”?
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Post by dadithinkimgay on Feb 12, 2021 22:07:45 GMT
I also always though that the silver orb we see in the dread wolf rises mural looked like a moon. Same. I can't draw anything from it, but same. On a side note there's a constellation by the name of Fenrir and while my Norse mythology is hazy, I think it eats the sun or moon or both? That's interesting because it looks like The Dread Wolf is hungry in both teaser images released thus far. I get the feeling that The Dread Wolf is going to consume... something.
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Post by ellehaym on Feb 12, 2021 22:42:57 GMT
I also always though that the silver orb we see in the dread wolf rises mural looked like a moon. Same. I can't draw anything from it, but same. On a side note there's a constellation by the name of Fenrir and while my Norse mythology is hazy, I think it eats the sun or moon or both? That's interesting because it looks like The Dread Wolf is hungry in both teaser images released thus far. I get the feeling that The Dread Wolf is going to consume... something. Solas did absorb Mythal who might have created at least one of the moons. Maybe he plans on absorbing Elgar'nan's powers who is associated with the sun? Not sure just how much of it is just flowery language, but assuming that there is some truth to the codex entry I mentioned then that means that Elgarn'nan and Mythal with the help of the earth (Could this be The Stone?) and sun restored life to the burned world. I just thought about this, but what if that's what he plans on doing? Use both of their powers to reshape the world after he lifts the Veil which might result in the world burning literally. You can confront Solas about him not helping the Elves and he says something like "Not unless we collapse the Veil and bring the Fade here so that I can casually reshape reality." I guess that's his plan?
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Post by dadithinkimgay on Feb 12, 2021 23:27:03 GMT
Maybe he plans on absorbing Elgar'nan's powers who is associated with the sun? According to the tales, Mythal had to CONVINCE Elgar’nan to let the sun go. Since Mythal couldn’t do it herself, it implies that Elgar’nan does have some unique ability and/or relationship with The Sun that no one else can easily copy. So what you’re saying sounds plausible and even suggests that Mythal let Solas absorb her because he will lead her to Elgar’nan. Thinking about it, Mythal may not give two shits about the Evanuris. Maybe she just wants Elgar’nan.
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Post by telanadas on Feb 13, 2021 6:34:31 GMT
Also, if this eclipse is happening, where has Thedas second moon been? I always thought that there only being one moon visible was an oversight by the devs, but maybe it's for story purposes? What do you guys think about this? I think you are on to something. It is interesting to think about...I've always thought the eclipse might have been what awoke Fen'Harel from his slumber, but maybe the eclipse is what triggers Fen'Harel's wolf form. Kinda like when werewolves only turn during a full moon. But his tarot does show a crescent moon, so maybe he can only rise as the Dread Wolf during an eclipse? If an eclipse in Thedas is imminent, that would also mean a period of complete darkness for some time, which could coincidentally make one or all the various prophecies/foreshadowings be "true". One day the magic will come back - all of it. Everyone will be just like they were. The shadows will part and the skies will open wide. When he rises, everyone will see
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Post by colfoley on Feb 13, 2021 7:50:10 GMT
I mean it would be a bit weird if an ecclipse was all that was needed to make him go all 'Dread Wolf' on everyone but it is still interesting to think about because so far a lot of DA 4s screen captures has been pretty dark and that could be the reason for it. An eclipse could also have a lot more natural, and more reasonable, effects on Thedas. For instance the growth of Red Lyrium could thrive better in darkness...actually this would make a lot of sense considering 'the void'...it could also effect the Veil...well that's pretty unlikely but possible. But then given they have mentioned the Waking Sea being so crzy as well and we know what the moon's gravitic field does to Earth's oceans well the 'old god' sea monster we have seen in the pics could easily be awakened by a disruption of their habitat...the ocean. Oh and I just keep on thinking of stuff...wouldn't it be interesting if this cuts off Par Vollen and Seheron from the mainland and thus makes it difficult for the Qunari to get reinforcements? Could this game's inciting incident be the Ecllipse? OK should probably quit while I am ahead.
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Post by sandwichtern on Feb 13, 2021 9:14:26 GMT
*CSI:BSN intro begins* Matthew Goldman keeps mentioning moons on twitter. At first it seemed nothing out of the ordinary, as he mentioned the moon in regards to the new chinese lunar new year, but then he went on to tweet even more about moons, even Thedas own: Matthew Goldman @sergoldman "Did you ever notice it's always a Full Moon in Thedas? Clearly there are multiple moons on eliptical orbits. There's Small Full Moon --> Huge Full Moon. This is why navigating The Waking Sea is so darn tricky! Here is a sweet Moon Image by Andy Braise! MOOOOOON!" The next day he tweeted how moons have a story by oddly comparing them to maps: Matthew Goldman @sergoldman"Maps are cool in a moon sort of way. They tell a story. Here's one that needs coloring in. It's inside the cover of "Last Flight". People on twitter are perplexed by his tweets. They are even wondering how Thedas' moon is always a full moon, and theorizing that the moon may not even move at all. That's very interesting to me, but I'm mostly intrigued because Solas has been depicted with the moon in his self portrait, Tower tarot card, AND is mentioned by his infamous name with the moon in The Emergent Compendium codex entry: "Two shadowed spheres among stars subtitled "aboofqp iboxE'kbC px bpmfizb kX""The random code has since been deciphered as " An eclipse as Fen'Harel stirred."I then noticed that the new backdrop for the logo looks like an minimalist sketch of an eclipse with two moons: Speaking of lunar year, happy year of the metal Ox (12 February - 31 January). 🐃 Good catch on the logo, my first thought when I saw it was a less flattering '"That's looks like a dishware." Imagine the stir if the second moon turned out to be a fake, trapped in the Fade, or its orbit having been influenced by the creation of the Veil. Now I'm curious whether it would be possible to see both moons simultaneously in the Fade. This does tie together with the map that came with Tevinter Nights. It had that compass in the lower left corner that had pictures of different phases of the moon. As there has been people asking for day-and-night cycle and seasonal changes in DA maps, should we begin to expect that we'll at the very least have a map where we can see the moon changing as the game progresses? It would be cool to have night blooming flower species in this map. My first pick would be Epiphyllum oxypetalum which blooms only once a year over a few days. In Chinese the flower's name translates 'cloudy flower' (Edit: notice the sky connotation re: moons) and it's used in an idiom that describes someone who has an impressive but very brief moment of glory (Solas? Our PC?), or alternatively a person who shows off, or someone who unexpectedly gains some achievement and is thought to be an exception or only lucky (Our PC?). In Indonesia it's called 'flower of triumph'. (Lusacan, the dragon of night, is also very interesting now when we're talking about moons.) Btw, according to wikipedia, both December and January have been called 'Wolf Moon'. 👀 Then there's also red full moon which could be nice to see (Edit: spoilered because hanako had already posted a good picture of a red moon) Not that I dislike these new lore implications, but it would be cool to have things credited to beings other than the elven pantheon. We still don't know what the Old gods of Tevinter taught to them. Toth was the dragon of fire, so, barring Veilfire, could Tevinters have different types/colours of fire in their use? Do you know of the Indonesian Kawah Ijen volcano which burns blue because of sulfur? It could be cool to have this kind of volcano in Tevinter and have it dedicated to Toth. Besides lyrium, sulfur fire could also be the reason that rock monster ( in one of the WIP artwork pics we had) was blue in colour. 🤔
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Post by gervaise21 on Feb 13, 2021 10:55:37 GMT
Also, if this eclipse is happening, where has Thedas second moon been? I always thought that there only being one moon visible was an oversight by the devs, but maybe it's for story purposes? One day the magic will come back - all of it. Everyone will be just like they were. The shadows will part and the skies will open wide. When he rises, everyone will see What puzzles me is that in the dark future where the waking world and the Fade had bled together there wasn't even a proper sky anymore. It is one of the things that has seemed odd to me in other references as "the place where the sky was held back" makes it sound as though the Fade was equated with the sky, just as spirits were known as "our brethren of the air". So was anything the same before the Veil?
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Post by telanadas on Feb 17, 2021 6:48:35 GMT
Continuing on the sun/moon symbolism, I was looking at the Bioware gear store and noticed the grey warden heraldry has the symbol of the sun on it's chalice. I just find it strange that the Chantry's logo is seemingly associated to the joining ritual. Is the 'light' in the Chant really referring to...archdemon blood? Or the grey wardens? "The Maker" is supposed to return when the Chant is spread through the four corners of the world. I wonder if that has something to do with an actual magic ritual of some sort, where spreading the blight to these four corners is what will awaken the "Maker". I know the Bioware have said they don't want to explicitly say who the Maker actually is but I wonder if the Chant will be debunked or rewritten in DA4?
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Post by colfoley on Feb 17, 2021 7:06:47 GMT
Continuing on the sun/moon symbolism, I was looking at the Bioware gear store and noticed the grey warden heraldry has the symbol of the sun on it's chalice. I just find it strange that the Chantry's logo is seemingly associated to the joining ritual. Is the 'light' in the Chant really referring to...archdemon blood? Or the grey wardens? "The Maker" is supposed to return when the Chant is spread through the four corners of the world. I wonder if that has something to do with an actual magic ritual of some sort, where spreading the blight to these four corners is what will awaken the "Maker". I know the Bioware have said they don't want to explicitly say who the Maker actually is but I wonder if the Chant will be debunked or rewritten in DA4? Pigybacking off of this idea too I just remembered from some of the theory videos of Ashe and what not that some of the murals in Tresspasser portrayed Titan Hearts as being star likes or star bursts. Which again is a bit...odd all things considering though I suppose we are talking about pure Titan Blood versus corrupted voided Titan Blood...ugh I actually have a few more contradictory ideas banging around up here that its hard to get them out. But typically for theory crafting purposes I guess the Deep Roads/ Sort of Titans/ but definitley the blight has been associated with Void and void is typically viewed as being dark. But if we take the idea that Titan Hearts can be the 'sun' and indeed if you go far enough down into the Earth/Thedas you get to a point where you get very bright environment...with a lot of sky looking stuff around there...and then a big blue looking Lyrium guardian at the heart of it which could provide its own sunlight. So in this case we loop back around because now its also weird if ecclispes in this regard is now associated with the Evanuris and the Dread Wolf in particular it would be interesting....if they brought the darkness, or created it, or somehow feeds off of it in the first place instead. What this has to do with the Chantry is anyone's guess
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Post by gervaise21 on Feb 17, 2021 9:04:29 GMT
Continuing on the sun/moon symbolism, I was looking at the Bioware gear store and noticed the grey warden heraldry has the symbol of the sun on it's chalice. This could be just a late addition to their heraldry after they converted to worship of the Maker en mass in gratitude for their rescue by Drakon during the 2nd Blight. Or since they are fighting the darkness that always accompanies an Arch-demon, it could just be symbolic of them fighting the darkness and restoring the sun/light to the world. It should be remembered that whilst the Chantry seem to have made the sun symbol their own, there is no particular reason why they should have an exclusive claim over it. In our world the sun is always associated with life and was viewed that way by most ancient cultures, many of whom had a sun god associated with it, so to me it was always rather odd that in Thedas the only god and religion associated with the sun was the Chantry. It is most peculiar that the Avvar do not have a sun god. However, they do have a Lady of the Skies, which is near enough I suppose. Pigybacking off of this idea too I just remembered from some of the theory videos of Ashe and what not that some of the murals in Tresspasser portrayed Titan Hearts as being star likes or star bursts. Now I think there could be something to this. Elgar'nan was called the "Firstborn of the Sun" and yet he was able to fight his father and throw him down beneath the earth. We know full well that he could not have wrestled with and defeated the actual sun, so this has to refer to something else. Solas calls the Evanuris the "First of my People" and it does seem likely that this was literally the case, Elgar'nan being the first elf, who was a spirit that took on bodily form on leaving the Fade and either touching the earth or a titan's lyrium heart (that shone like the sun). I've mention in a post above how it always seems odd to me that the Fade is equated with the sky and when the Veil was torn open it happens in the sky, effectively blocking out the true sky with the weird green fade sky. I seem to recall that there was a theory at one time that maybe the Veil-less world was not how it was meant to be and Elgar'nan, with Mythal's help, altered reality to allow them to use magic more freely and this is what the Titans objected to and fought against before being subdued and put to sleep. If this were true then actually the current Waking World is how it was originally and it was the Evanuris who first altered reality, so in creating the Veil Fen'Harel was really returning the world to its original form, which in turn allowed the creatures that were meant to inhabit it to flourish, including the early humans. But typically for theory crafting purposes I guess the Deep Roads/ Sort of Titans/ but definitley the blight has been associated with Void and void is typically viewed as being dark. If the origins of the Blight don't turn out to be a corrupted titan, I shall be very surprised. The fact that the taint that comes from the blight is found in red lyrium and we now know that to be the blood of the Titans, seems to confirm it. So if the "sunburst" symbol on the side of the Grey Warden chalice is in fact symbolic of the titans that would be no surprise either, even though the Wardens may not actually be aware of it. Originally it was suggested in the Core Rule Book that the Joining Ritual was devised by elven slaves who joined the Grey Wardens. So they may have had their own reasons for placing a sunburst symbol on the Joining chalice. The Core Rule Book also suggested that whilst the Grey Wardens are Andrastrians, they do not subscribe to the Chantry's version of how the Blight started. This could just be because they believe the dwarven version of events who don't believe the Chantry's myth either, or because those early elven Wardens knew something the others didn't. Remember in the Descent that Renn believed the way to defeat the Blight would be to go in search of the original broodmother(s). Kill them and there could be no more darkspawn. Then we had that concept art that definitely looked like the interior of a corrupted titan. So I'm pretty sure that is the way the writers are heading on this one. I'm also fairly convinced that it does have a major implication for why Solas believes he has no choice but to alter reality in order to save his people because not to act would doom everyone anyway. Why did the Promissors believe that the world was irredeemably corrupt and the only way forward was to cleanse it with fire and start again? They have to have got that idea from somewhere. Not only that but they also knew the way to accomplish this was to destroy the Veil.
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Post by colfoley on Feb 17, 2021 11:38:56 GMT
Continuing on the sun/moon symbolism, I was looking at the Bioware gear store and noticed the grey warden heraldry has the symbol of the sun on it's chalice. This could be just a late addition to their heraldry after they converted to worship of the Maker en mass in gratitude for their rescue by Drakon during the 2nd Blight. Or since they are fighting the darkness that always accompanies an Arch-demon, it could just be symbolic of them fighting the darkness and restoring the sun/light to the world. It should be remembered that whilst the Chantry seem to have made the sun symbol their own, there is no particular reason why they should have an exclusive claim over it. In our world the sun is always associated with life and was viewed that way by most ancient cultures, many of whom had a sun god associated with it, so to me it was always rather odd that in Thedas the only god and religion associated with the sun was the Chantry. It is most peculiar that the Avvar do not have a sun god. However, they do have a Lady of the Skies, which is near enough I suppose. Pigybacking off of this idea too I just remembered from some of the theory videos of Ashe and what not that some of the murals in Tresspasser portrayed Titan Hearts as being star likes or star bursts. Now I think there could be something to this. Elgar'nan was called the "Firstborn of the Sun" and yet he was able to fight his father and throw him down beneath the earth. We know full well that he could not have wrestled with and defeated the actual sun, so this has to refer to something else. Solas calls the Evanuris the "First of my People" and it does seem likely that this was literally the case, Elgar'nan being the first elf, who was a spirit that took on bodily form on leaving the Fade and either touching the earth or a titan's lyrium heart (that shone like the sun). I've mention in a post above how it always seems odd to me that the Fade is equated with the sky and when the Veil was torn open it happens in the sky, effectively blocking out the true sky with the weird green fade sky. I seem to recall that there was a theory at one time that maybe the Veil-less world was not how it was meant to be and Elgar'nan, with Mythal's help, altered reality to allow them to use magic more freely and this is what the Titans objected to and fought against before being subdued and put to sleep. If this were true then actually the current Waking World is how it was originally and it was the Evanuris who first altered reality, so in creating the Veil Fen'Harel was really returning the world to its original form, which in turn allowed the creatures that were meant to inhabit it to flourish, including the early humans. But typically for theory crafting purposes I guess the Deep Roads/ Sort of Titans/ but definitley the blight has been associated with Void and void is typically viewed as being dark. If the origins of the Blight don't turn out to be a corrupted titan, I shall be very surprised. The fact that the taint that comes from the blight is found in red lyrium and we now know that to be the blood of the Titans, seems to confirm it. So if the "sunburst" symbol on the side of the Grey Warden chalice is in fact symbolic of the titans that would be no surprise either, even though the Wardens may not actually be aware of it. Originally it was suggested in the Core Rule Book that the Joining Ritual was devised by elven slaves who joined the Grey Wardens. So they may have had their own reasons for placing a sunburst symbol on the Joining chalice. The Core Rule Book also suggested that whilst the Grey Wardens are Andrastrians, they do not subscribe to the Chantry's version of how the Blight started. This could just be because they believe the dwarven version of events who don't believe the Chantry's myth either, or because those early elven Wardens knew something the others didn't. Remember in the Descent that Renn believed the way to defeat the Blight would be to go in search of the original broodmother(s). Kill them and there could be no more darkspawn. Then we had that concept art that definitely looked like the interior of a corrupted titan. So I'm pretty sure that is the way the writers are heading on this one. I'm also fairly convinced that it does have a major implication for why Solas believes he has no choice but to alter reality in order to save his people because not to act would doom everyone anyway. Why did the Promissors believe that the world was irredeemably corrupt and the only way forward was to cleanse it with fire and start again? They have to have got that idea from somewhere. Not only that but they also knew the way to accomplish this was to destroy the Veil. i didn't think this would gel with Sandal's prophecy but then i realized in a really elegant way it does. 1. It would be really delicious if Solas himself was gussying himself up and the past. Afterall he loves the Fade too so it would make sense that he would want to talk it up and think that is why the elves fell...and he is probably right to but the Evanuris would've been just as corrupting to the natural order as anything else...thus Sandals prophecy comes true. 2. It would make more sense on why the Titan would awaken in the Fade breech... 3. I did mention my theory that if the Elves are spirits then (a) solution would be to banish them to the Fade... 4. And for the more meta reasons but the big reason a lot of people are concerned that tearing down the veil coukd represent a breaking of the franchise, making it impossible to continue...but if we discover Solas is just as deluded and the rabbit hole goes deeper then that then current thedas is, as you said, the true natural order and understanding that may be the first step to fixing it.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Feb 17, 2021 16:59:52 GMT
it was always rather odd that in Thedas the only god and religion associated with the sun was the Chantry. The Dalish religion also has a sun deity, being the creator of all things.
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Post by gervaise21 on Feb 17, 2021 19:35:22 GMT
The Dalish religion also has a sun deity, being the creator of all things. It is implied because clearly something must have preceded Elgar'nan because the world already existed into which he was born. However, they have no name for this entity or even a Dalish word for the sun. You could also imply that the earth is a deity too, since the earth was the mother of Elgar'nan, whilst the sun was his father. However, this creation myth is the only reference made to them.
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Post by ellehaym on Feb 17, 2021 21:07:39 GMT
I'm reminded of this codex entry
This doesn't have a date, but it seems like Dwarves of old seem to believe that the Stone carries with it a corruption and that it is their duty to get rid of it so that the Stone and remain "pure" and thus Dwarves to prosper. On a side note, maybe the Sha-Brytol were tasked with something similar originally, which might explain their obsession with purity.
It doesn't look like Dwarves do that any more. So if there are no Dwarves cutting away at this gangue and impurity then surely this corruption will keep on growing unabated until it spills over. If a Titan is a giant creature, it's blood lyrium and then Dwarves its white blood cells. Maybe one of the consequences of this is a corrupted Titan?
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Post by telanadas on Feb 18, 2021 9:17:20 GMT
hmm all of this reminds me of Mythal and the dwarves: === Written beside each elven line is a corresponding phrase, likely a translation: I am empty, filled with nothing(?), Mythal gives you dreams. It fills you, within you(?), Making our leaders proud. My little stones, Never yours the sun. Forever, forever.
Hahren said we had lost some of the old words. What if they have changed? Durgen'lin from durgen'len? Little dwarves, never yours the sun? What did Mythal do here?
=== If the blight did arise from a corrupted titan, I wonder if Mythal fought the war with the titans because they were already corrupted to begin with? And if the sun symbolism refers to titan hearts like it seems to suggest in Solas' murals, is it also synonymous with the fire from dragons, specifically Elgar'nan? The other note found in the Deep Roads suggests the Dalish believe the dwarves are scared of the sun (and by extension the surface) because of Elgar'nan's fire. But we know from the hissing wastes that some dwarves were actually driven to the surface and may have had to confront what could possibly be Elgar'nan in dragon form: === "From the Stone, have no fear of anything, but the stone-less sky betrays with wings of flame. If the surface must be breached, if there is no other way, bring weapons against the urtok, and heed their screams."
"Urtok" means "dragon." Why was it part of an ancient crest? Why were these dwarves so worried about a monster they'd never see that they worked it into their weapons?
This place becomes more impossible each day.
=== Also interesting to note is this particular are has a Mythal statue overlooking Fairel's tomb. === The sun burned above oceans of sand, but in the sand was Stone, strong and true. Fairel hewed the Stone, and built—as great as any thaig in the deep. And with his sons' help, he ensured the thaig prospered and grew.
Fairel, Paragon, fled from the strife his brilliance created, the strife that destroyed thaigs, sundered houses, from weapons that clan used against clan. His own clan and his two sons followed Fairel to the pitiless surface, the surface where they would hide from the war that took their home.
=== But...you know who else has wings of flame?? The dread wolf, as described in TN: Lupine in appearance, but the size of a high dragon, with shaggy spiked hide and six burning eyes like a pride demon, and it came to us on wings of fire that resolved themselves into a horde of lesser demons as the Dread Wolf landed before us.🧐 Now according to this dictionary (https://www.wordsense.eu/solas/#Latin - I don't know how accurate this is) Solas means 'light' in Irish. Our sun and solar system is called 'Sol' too, so making the connection between Solas and the sun is kinda easy anyway. Soo....could Solas actually be Elgar'nan?
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Post by telanadas on Feb 18, 2021 10:47:30 GMT
Okay just for kicks, here's some more Elgar'nan = Solas drabble because I'm now down a rabbit hole and can't help myself... Firstly, Fen'Harel was originally a title. Solas says it became his name not unlike 'Inquisitor', and that it inspired hope in his friends and fear in his enemies. Now, it's been long speculated that Solas is seasoned in fighting and strategising in warfare because of his banter with Blackwall and Sera. His association to Pride and Pride demons is also pretty obvious by now. We can surmise that Elgar'nan was also arrogant and prideful, based on the following codex: === The pages of this book—memory?—describe a monument made in a single afternoon by a thousand-thousand toiling servants swarming over a lump of fallen stone as large as a collapsed mountain. By the end of the day, the stern figure of Elgar'nan stares down into a valley, carved out from the foothills of the rock. The slaves have disappeared. Light radiates from the eidolon's narrowed eyes and its open, snarling mouth.
"Hail Elgar'nan, first among the gods! Mark his victory eternal!"=== Is it just me or does the snarling mouth remind anyone of the slavering jaws the dread wolf is described to have? If Elgar'nan used the title 'Fen'Harel' in his many wars, that does sound like Solas' MO because he was also incredibly prideful and arrogant...he says so himself. Using his title to inspire fear sounds like something both Solas and Elgar'nan would both do, and what better way to instil that fear than to build a monument of yourself in the most terrifying way possible? With a snarling mouth no less.... I also have to say, we have yet to learn more info on Elgar'nan, yet he was supposedly Mythal's husband and right hand man. Very curious isn't it? Why are there no obvious statues of Elgar'nan at Mythal's own temple??? Unless Fen'Harel's statues is meant to depict both Elgar'nan and Fen'Harel? Solas says himself Mythal was known as the goddess of vengeance to some, and Elgar'nan is known as the God of Vengeance. Solas could have acted as Mythal's right hand man, dishing out her judgements/executions.
In fact we saw first hand in his personal quest how rash he can be with exacting vengeance - he gives the mages no chance to defend themselves and he just goes in for the kill. Which sounds exactly like Elgar'nan...the fact he was stopped by the Inquisitor, the Herald of Anraste would draw parallels to Mythal and Elgarn'ans relationship. Now we also have this codex: === Elgar'nan, Wrath and Thunder, Give us glory. Give us victory, over the Earth that shakes our cities. Strike the usurpers with your lightning. Burn the ground under your gaze. Bring Winged Death against those who throw down our work.
Elgar'nan, help us tame the land.
──Song to Elgar'nan, found in the Temple of Mythal, author unknown=== Winged death = wings of fire? (actually this could also refer to Falon'Din because of the capitals) Burn the ground under your gaze = May the dread wolf never hear your steps?? Elgar'nan, help us tame the land. = Ghilan'nains creatures !?!!??!! We know from Ghil's codex that Pride stopped her from destroying her sea creatures because they were able to be tamed: === Ghilan'nain kept herself apart from the People. She used her power to create animals none had ever seen. The skies teemed with her monsters, the land with her beasts. Andruil hunted them all, and after a year of killing, approached Ghilan'nain with an offer: the gods would share their power with Ghilan'nain, but only if she destroyed her creations, for they were too untamed to remain among the People. Ghilan'nain agreed and asked for three days to undo what she had made.
On the first day she struck down the monsters of the air, except those she presented to Andruil as a gift.
On the second day she drowned the giants of the sea, except those in deep waters, for they were too well-wrought, and Pride stopped her hand.
On the third day she killed the beasts of the land, except the halla, whose grace she loved above all else.
This is how Ghilan'nain was made youngest of the gods.=== Solas' main passion is travelling the Fade and learning about thousand year old dreams. If he was Elgar'nan, he could have handed his duties off to Mythal because he was really only interested in learning and gaining 'wisdom' through dreams. When Cole says 'he did not want a body but she asked him to' that could really mean that Solas was forced to choose between Mythal and her war, vs. his alliance with the Forgotten Ones. The dread wolf is said to have multiple forms based on the evanuris' propaganda...so maybe he lied to her about taking on a singular physical form. Thereby betraying her, like Flemeth says she was. Solas also seems pretty bitter about Falon'Din and recalls Mythal bloodying him in his own temple. That rift could go back further, based on this codex: === The pages of this book—memory?—show a narrow plateau on top of a mountain, Two armored figures—one in gold, one in black—are fighting in the snow. Steel flickers so fast the air hums. Blood dots the ground. They do not stop for breath. The one in black makes no sound as a blade parts his throat.
"Mythal, in her wisdom, interceded in an argument between Elgar'nan and Falon'Din. With clever words, she convince them to settle their grievance through a battle of their champions. Elgar'nan and Falon'Din agreed, and set their champions against each other rather than declare war among the gods. May those knights long be remembered, and Mythal's wisdom be praised."=== I'm sure there's more I could theory craft on but this is all I can think of for now.
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Post by gervaise21 on Feb 18, 2021 11:43:13 GMT
I also have to say, we have yet to learn more info on Elgar'nan, yet he was supposedly Mythal's husband and right hand man. Very curious isn't it? Why are there no obvious statues of Elgar'nan at Mythal's own temple??? I have to admit that I'm beginning to wonder whether that relationship is something that the Dalish misunderstood. Nor do I think that the various other gods were their children in the conventional sense. The Dalish place a great deal of emphasis in their culture on family and giving loyalty and support to the wider family encompassed by their clan. This would be vital for their survival but it would seem they have used the gods to embody and encourage these attributes rather than that actually having been true of the attitude of the gods themselves. For example, they say that Dirthamen taught them the value of loyalty and faith in family (WoT p.120) but there seems nothing of this to be found in his Temple and the insistence on loyalty seems far more connected with maintaining their secrets from outsiders rather than sharing knowledge with others for the benefit of all. Solas says they rose to power through their positions of leadership in a war, so the connection between the various gods seems more that of colleagues and rivals rather than family. If we go by the Temple of Mythal, their grouping is rather different to the one given us by the Dalish. At the entrance we have Fen'Harel, who is in the same position as he would adopt if Mythal was sitting on a her throne and he was at her right hand as her protector. Then we have an outer sanctum, with mosaics to Andruil, Falon'Din and June. We discovered that the first two had run ins with Mythal that may have resulted in them falling out of favour; hence them being in the outer sanctum. However, if that was the case, then June must have done something to offend her as well. The codex there merely suggests that whatever June's sphere of interest it was not what the Dalish attribute to him. His mosaic seems to show him working at a table or anvil, so it is understandable the Dalish would have assumed he was a god of crafting. I wonder if it could possibly be a basin or vessel of some sort. He could simply be responsible for creating the magical weapons, such as that strange bow and arrow in the latest concept art but I do wonder if he was responsible for something else entirely. What favour did he do for Sylaise? Anyway, the others can still be found within the inner sanctum but grouped together in different rooms. If I recall correctly Elgar'nan, Ghilan'nain and Dirthamen were in one room and Sylaise in a separate one next door. Could that have some sort of symbolic significance? From the words about her it almost seems like her part was to mimic the abilities of others and improve on them. However, that text does say that June is known for his craft, whose skill she can surpass. It also says that Elgar'nan is known for his light. Still, you would think that if Elgar'nan was the chief of the gods and Mythal's consort that he would be the one with his own special room or alongside Mythal somewhere, not just one of many. I know there is going to be an emphasis on Mythal in her temple but nevertheless it does give the impression more of her having dominance over the rest. Since Elgar'nan only gets involved by her when she has washed her hands of the sinner, I'd almost think that he was effectively the Lord High Executioner. Someone has mentioned in an earlier post either on this threat or elsewhere that it is not clear where we get the idea that Elgar'nan means "Spirit of Vengeance". He seems associated with vengeance by the Dalish purely on the basis of him attacking the sun in retribution for it killing the earth's creations. In the Temple of Mythal it would appear the elves are asking him to exact vengeance on their enemies who destroyed their creations but if he was the chief general in a war that could be the reason for this association. If Mythal is the judge and also known for vengeance, he would seem to be replicating her. I wonder that since he is also called the "Firstborn of the Sun" and the sun is associated with light, that Elgar'nan actually means "Spirit of Light" or "Spirit of the Sun". He is certainly known for his lightning. I hope we are going to get a clearer picture of the Evanuris in DA4 and information that does not come from Solas or his allies, which is naturally going to be biased.
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