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Post by telanadas on Feb 19, 2021 4:39:36 GMT
Then we have an outer sanctum, with mosaics to Andruil, Falon'Din and June. We discovered that the first two had run ins with Mythal that may have resulted in them falling out of favour; hence them being in the outer sanctum. However, if that was the case, then June must have done something to offend her as well. I remember seeing June's mosaic in the Knight's Tomb which is just inside Elgar'nan's bastion, so something does seem suspicious there. The only mosaics in that location are Mythal, Falon'Din, and June. The Knight's Tomb was interesting because it had the Falon'Din and Mythal imagery everywhere, and the Mythal statue with its head replaced with a human skull. If June supported the emerald knights (one of their swords Evanura was supposed to be forged by his high priest) then perhaps he had an alliance with Fen'Harel, going by the wolf imagery in the surrounding Dales. Maybe Mythal didn't approve of this alliance or it was this alliance that led to her death. I had a look at some old screenshots and Fen'Harel's mosaic is right next to Elgar'nan's in the Temple of Mythal. (I'll try post some images later) Sylaise's mosaic also seems to be flanked by two Ghilan'nain statues. I don't know how much thought the devs put into designing this place but the placement of all the statues and mosaics seems very odd to me. I might have to do another play through of the quest to refresh my memory. I've always found it weird that Elgar'nan is hardly anywhere to be seen at Mythal's temple. Even at her altar in the wilds, it seems that she was the one who was exacting 'vengeance' as well as justice, so how does Elgar'nan fit into the picture exactly? (btw regarding the meaning of Elgar'nan's name, I think the codex in DAO of him is specifically titled 'Elgar'nan: God of Vengeance'. I wouldn't be surprised if it meant something different though) If Mythal was the real leader and Elgar'nan a figurehead who was so arrogant he commissioned a massive statue of himself ( ... a thousand-thousand toiling servants swarming over a lump of fallen stone as large as a collapsed mountain), why do we not see evidence of this anywhere? We do see massive statues of Fen'Harel though, all throughout the Dales. In fact I'm pretty Fen'Harel has the biggest statues in the game.Coincidence??? His mosaic also reminds me of an hourglass and it looks like he could be extracting power from an orb: Technically the sun is a marker of time ....and we know that Solas made elves mortal with his creation of the veil. I could just be looking too much into this but it seems like a strange coincidence.
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Post by telanadas on Feb 19, 2021 4:48:48 GMT
This is a quote from Cole in Trespasser: "He did not want a body. But she asked him to come. He left a scar when he burned her off his face."Then in Mythal's codex we have this: It was at this moment that Mythal walked out of the sea of the earth's tears and onto the land. She placed her hand on Elgar'nan's brow, and at her touch he grew calm and knew that his anger had led him astray. Humbled, Elgar'nan went to the place where the sun was buried and spoke to him. Elgar'nan said he would release the sun if the sun promised to be gentle and to return to the earth each night. The sun, feeling remorse at what he had done, agreed.Okay, so we all know Solas has a scar on his brow.
Could Mythal have somehow subdued him and made him akin to a tranquil so she could use his power? Explaining why he is so against tranquility himself? Could he have overcome her power and then led a rebellion against her? I know this may be grasping at straws but the more I look into this the more I convince myself there's something here. Oh also one more thing for consideration XD Check out this description of Elgar'nan EnasteElgar'nan, Sun's-deathBurn the ground under your gazeGrant the fire blessing.Your people call outFor all things to end in flameAshes sing Your Praise.Does this not remind anyone of the DWR mural?
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Post by xerrai on Feb 19, 2021 7:55:35 GMT
I also have to say, we have yet to learn more info on Elgar'nan, yet he was supposedly Mythal's husband and right hand man. Very curious isn't it? Why are there no obvious statues of Elgar'nan at Mythal's own temple??? If we go by the Temple of Mythal, their grouping is rather different to the one given us by the Dalish. At the entrance we have Fen'Harel, who is in the same position as he would adopt if Mythal was sitting on a her throne and he was at her right hand as her protector. Then we have an outer sanctum, with mosaics to Andruil, Falon'Din and June. We discovered that the first two had run ins with Mythal that may have resulted in them falling out of favour; hence them being in the outer sanctum. However, if that was the case, t hen June must have done something to offend her as well. The codex there merely suggests that whatever June's sphere of interest it was not what the Dalish attribute to him. His mosaic seems to show him working at a table or anvil, so it is understandable the Dalish would have assumed he was a god of crafting. I wonder if it could possibly be a basin or vessel of some sort. He could simply be responsible for creating the magical weapons, such as that strange bow and arrow in the latest concept art but I do wonder if he was responsible for something else entirely. What favour did he do for Sylaise? [...] This is all purely conjecture, but what if June was a war profiteer of sorts? He may not have taken the side of any particular conflict (aside from perhaps, Sylaise) but I can easily see him facilitating them if he was as dedicated to crafting as the Dalish believe. He may have been taken his crafting as far as Ghilan'nan took her creature creations, willing to push the boundaries ever farther with lyrium, blood, and whatever else in an effort to pursue his interest. It would ironically be because of his neutrality that Mythal may have disliked him. Given Falon Din's and Andruil's tendency toward competitiveness, June may have made their escapades all the more gruesome because he was willing to supply thier antics in some form or another. It would also explain why he's such a "background" character in Dalish lore. Sure, he was around and crafting, but he mostly stayed out of the evanuris's politics. Not because he didn't concern himself with them, but he was clever enough to use all sides. Clever June, indeed... But it's really hard to tell given our really limited knowledge on him. I don't even think the guy has his own dedicated Dalish folktale. The most they got that he was a crafter of close relation to Sylaise, and they named a tangled rope puzzle after him?
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Post by gervaise21 on Feb 19, 2021 10:08:28 GMT
He may have been taken his crafting as far as Ghilan'nan took her creature creations, willing to push the boundaries ever farther with lyrium, blood, and whatever else in an effort to pursue his interest. This is a distinct possibility. If he had the spirit's single minded dedication to creating objects, particularly weapons of war, then he would at least be partly responsible for the conflicts that ensued. Initially his weapons were for use against the titans and their other enemies but later he kept on producing them for whomever asked him. I do have the suspicion that it could have been one of his weapons that was used to kill Mythal. Also, whilst Solas claims ownership of the idol, he may not have actually created it. That could also have been the work of June. It would ironically be because of his neutrality that Mythal may have disliked him. I have a feeling that to a large extent you can regard all the Evanuris as "neutral". If they are committed to a particular aim or aspiration, it is not because they are "good" or "evil" but simply they are dedicated to its pursuit. As I've said before, Andruil is known as a huntress. So because she is a hunter she must hunt. As her story suggested, over time she find hunting regular prey no longer a challenge because she was so good at it, so she needed ever more difficult and dangerous prey to satisfy her. After all, Mythal realised the way to entrap her was to present herself as a dangerous beast that needed slaying. Ghilan'nain thus became a perfect ally for Andruil because she seems to have been committed to breeding ever more varied and dangerous creatures. Meanwhile June would produce ever more ingenious weapons for Andruil to use (hence the Dalish finding references to him creating bows and other items for hunting). I think Falon'Din was connected with the governance of souls after death and his followers were chiefly found in the Fade, which is why he was attributed with being God of the Dead by the Dalish. In was in his interests to encourage conflict as that would gain him more followers in the Fade. Mythal kept thwarting him and ultimately punished him for his actions. I think Solas particularly disliked him because of his actions concerning souls in the Fade. Maybe he enslaved souls rather than them following him freely. Anyway, I think Sylaise was committed to creating fire and heat. As for Elgar'nan, may be something to do with light and lightning. You didn't want to draw his gaze because he would strike you.
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Post by gervaise21 on Feb 19, 2021 10:24:35 GMT
If Mythal was the real leader and Elgar'nan a figurehead who was so arrogant he commissioned a massive statue of himself ( ... a thousand-thousand toiling servants swarming over a lump of fallen stone as large as a collapsed mountain), why do we not see evidence of this anywhere? I think this status was specifically to celebrate their victory over the titans, which he appears to have led. Notice the statue was carved from a "collapsed mountain" which makes me think it may have actually been the body of a titan. Also the thousands of toiling servants may not have been elves at all but dwarves who were forced to construct this celebration of the elves victory over their guardian. The fact that dwarves were said to particularly fear Elgar'nan suggests that he was the one they saw as responsible for the downfall of the titan, even though the elves seem to have attributed the victory to Mythal. May be that always rankled with Elgar'nan, that he had led the victory as general but Mythal took the credit. Thus you have the similarity there with Maferath and Andraste. It is not the husband and wife aspect but the fact that Maferath was the leader of the army but Andraste the figurehead who got all the adulation. May be Mythal allowed him the statue to appease him. (I've not forgotten that Solas also claims to have fought in an army in his youth). We do see massive statues of Fen'Harel though, all throughout the Dales. Those statues have never made much sense to me if Fen'Harel was a rebel against the gods. There is no way such huge statues to him were a product of the Dalish. Not only was their attitude to him not likely to inspire such devotion but where in their short history would they have had the time and resources to devote to such a project? So they have to be a hangover from ancient times. Yet how did the other gods allow such a proliferation of statues to him if they wanted to discourage others from following him? So the statues had to have been erected before his rebellion, at a time when he was very much still part of the ruling elite and supported them, particularly Mythal. If the area north of the Arbor Wilds was also largely dedicated to Mythal, then having so many statues dedicated to her champion starts to make sense. I'm pretty sure the reason Solas is burdened with such guilt is not just what his actions did to the elven people but the fact that he failed to protect Mythal from her enemies. I'm guessing that somehow they managed to trick him into being absent when they moved against her. That would really rankle with him.
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Post by sandwichtern on Feb 19, 2021 21:19:22 GMT
From time to time there have been posters comparing the blight corruption and red lyrium to infectious diseases. A while ago I got bored and decided to look into this. Here's a table comparing viruses to bacteria (fingers crossed that I managed to get my table settings right ): VIRUSES | BACTERIA | - very small | - larger in size as compared to viruses | - non-cellular - do not have a cell wall; instead they possess a protein coat | - single-celled - have a cell wall | - have no metabolism of their own | - have metabolism of their own | - take no food by any method | - take food by absorption | - do not grow and do not divide | - grow in size and divide to produce more bacteria | - command the host cell to produce virus (replicate only inside a host) - Only grow and reproduce inside the host cell they infect. When found outside of these living cells, viruses are dormant. - obligate parasites | - can reproduce by their own (don't need a host organism for reproduction) - Living organisms that consist of single cell that can generate energy, make its own food, move, and reproduce (typically by binary fission). This allows bacteria to live in many places. - ubiquitous microorganisms | - scientific opinions differ whether or not they are living organisms (possess both living and non-living characteristics)
| - considered as living organisms
| - all produce diseases in man, animals, or plants | - some are harmless, some useful, and some are disease causing | - A viral infection is systemic, viruses infect a host cell and then multiply by the thousands, leaving the host cell and infecting other cells of the body. - prevented by vaccines | - A bacterial infection is usually confined to a part of the body (localised infection). Infection may be caused by the bacteria or the toxins they produce. - prevented by antibiotics | - Viral diseases: influenza, rabies, measles, polio, AIDS, COVID-19 | - Bacterial diseases: pneumonia, tuberculosis, tetanus, food poisoning
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Based on this I'd say the blight corruption resembles the workings of viruses and that lyrium has many similarities with bacteria. What if, instead of blood, it would be more correct to think of lyrium as the bacterial flora of a titan? Blue lyrium being beneficial bacteria living inside the titan or on its outer 'skin' would better answer the question how lyrium can both be independently alive but also inseparable part of a titan. The detail about the localised nature of bacterial infections also caught my eye. (Do not poke the infected area, indeed.) We also had that WIP picture of red lyrium veins merrily growing from the walls of a crumbled building. This would fit if red lyrium can provide its own food even on seemingly non-nourishing surfaces. This got me thinking about methods we use to kill or render inactive viruses and bacteria. 'Killing' by heat sterilisation works for both, but one can't very well boil large buildings. Taking the 'burn everything down' approach to things works but comes with its own problems. I've read some posters wonder why the negative effects of suffering a Blight were nowhere to be seen in Ferelden ten years later. My theory is that Fereldans did indeed direct some slash-and-burn style problem solving towards their blighted areas. However, besides the length of the Blight, in my mind what separates Ferelden from the badly affected areas of Anderfels, Tevinter, and Orlais is the resilience of the soil. Here's a map which depicts the inherent land quality around the world. In areas marked with white, lavender, and yellow the soil is least resilient to any wear-and-tear directed at it. White and red areas are less abundant in nutrients and can also yield much leaner harvests compared to fertile areas of yellow, cyan blue and green. Notice how Mongolia, a country known for its steppes like Anderfels, is mostly marked with white, whereas western Europe is a colourful mess. Besides heat, also acidity can in some cases be useful against viruses and bacteria. While there are bacteria that can even tolerate a ph as low as 1.0, most of them grow best around neutral ph values (6.5 - 7.0). Also some viruses denature in low ph. Below is the map of global variation in soil ph. Red means acidic soil (ph ≤ 6.5), yellow neutral soil (ph 6.6 - 7.3), and blue alkaline soil (ph ≥ 7.4) ( black=no data). The important thing to take away from this map is that different plants have their preferences when it comes to soil ph. In this forum post a poster called Kipper lists fruits and vegetables found in DA games. Though most of these prefer slightly acidic soil (6.0 - 7.0), blueberries require very acidic soil (around 5.0); and cabbages, turnips, lettuce, horseradish and oranges can also tolerate alkaline soil. In addition this, in DA:O we meet the Grand Oak, a sylvan, in a Fereldan forest. Since oak trees grow in soil with ph 5.0 - 6.5 (as do spruces and birches which we also see in Ferelden), I'd argue that Fereldan soil is acidic. Interestingly Iron Bull's bananas grow moderately acidic soil (5.5 - 6.5) and cacao can tolerate both acidic and alkaline soil (5.0 - 7.5), so it seems there is more variation in Qunari lands. Since mushrooms grow in slightly acidic soil (6.0- 7.0), we also know ph in dwarven caves. It might also be worth noting that while ph of sea-water is 8.2, deep-sea lakes (brine pools) are acidic (5.5). The reason I'm mentioning this is because of fires, both the destructive ones lit by darkspawn and the cleasing ones needed to get rid of the corruption, produce ash. Ash is very alkaline (9 - 11) and Anderfels is the area most affected by darkspawn. In Fereldan its acidic soil will act as a counter and come the next spring, new plants will start sprout from scorched earth. If the soil happens to be a bit less acidic, most of the plants can still adapt. But what happens when you add ash again and again on already alkaline and nutrient-poor soil of Anderfels? (I'm assuming here that Ander soil is alkaline like its Mongolian inspiration.) We're in trouble when the continuous fighting prevents arable lands and nature from recovering, native plants can no longer tolerate the new ph levels, or the palate of natives is unaccustomed to new unfamiliar crops which are the only ones able to be cultivated. I'd say this is how you get the largely deserted steppes of Anderfels.
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Post by telanadas on Mar 15, 2021 12:19:47 GMT
I've been learning about Ancient Egypt recently and I've realised that many aspects of DA lore seems to be inspired by Ancient Egyptian mythology, and their creation story and afterlife. Their sun god (Ra) even has a headdress similar to the creature in the mural who may be Elgar'nan. According to their beliefs, they buried the dead with a Book of the Dead, containing spells that guided them in the afterlife. Quote from wikipedia: "The path to the afterlife as laid out in the Book of the Dead was a difficult one. The deceased was required to pass a series of gates, caverns and mounds guarded by supernatural creatures.[40] These terrifying entities were armed with enormous knives and are illustrated in grotesque forms, typically as human figures with the heads of animals or combinations of different ferocious beasts. Their names—for instance, "He who lives on snakes" or "He who dances in blood"—are equally grotesque. These creatures had to be pacified by reciting the appropriate spells included in the Book of the Dead; once pacified they posed no further threat, and could even extend their protection to the dead person."en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_the_DeadNow do the gates or the monstrous creatures sound familiar to anyone? Maybe the gates to the black city are guarded by Ghil's creatures, one of which may have been behind the eluvian that tainted Tamlen? I'm imagining this concept in DA4 now and I think it could be pretty epic, where we had to fight our way through seven gates and pacify seven creatures to access the Black City. The gate guardians in Egyptian mythology could be pacified by using spells from the book of the dead, or if the person knew it's real name. The monster could then lend the person aid in their journey to the final gate where they would be judged by Osiris (or in DA's case, Mythal?). The book also aided in helping people navigate the afterlife by helping them remember their own name. They believed a person's name from birth was attached to their memories. If the person forgot their name in the afterlife they essentially lost connection to their soul, meaning they ceased to exist. If such a concept were to apply to DA's own lore it could explain the importance placed on names in elven lore and why Mythal only favoured the strong willed. oh and that's not all! According to their mythology, Ra their sun god, would ride the sun each day and into the underworld at night. This journey always ended with him fighting his enemy Apep, a great serpent, at night. When a solar eclipse occurred, the Egyptians supposedly believed Ra was having trouble fighting Apep and it would be terrifying because they wouldn't know if the sun would come up again or not. Just for theory crafting's sake, I wonder if the serpent (Mythal) is actually the mega villain in a good vs. evil story, where Mythal battles it out with Elgar'nan in the end? We have yet to know who Elgar'nan even is in DA and for someone who is the god of the sun it is very suspicious to me we know so little about him. I have a pretty good feeling Elgar'nan and Mythal being the figures in the last mural. Anyway, if anyone is interested here's a video explaining all of this far better than I can:
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Post by gervaise21 on Mar 16, 2021 19:49:43 GMT
The gate guardians in Egyptian mythology could be pacified by using spells from the book of the dead, or if the person knew it's real name. The monster could then lend the person aid in their journey to the final gate where they would be judged by Osiris (or in DA's case, Mythal?). The book also aided in helping people navigate the afterlife by helping them remember their own name. They believed a person's name from birth was attached to their memories. If the person forgot their name in the afterlife they essentially lost connection to their soul, meaning they ceased to exist. This bit about names does sound familiar. You may remember I put forward a theory that the reason Mythal was more favourably inclined towards the Dalish than Solas was that they had kept the memory of her alive (as their ancestors had done) and it was possibly because they had constantly invoked her name that allowed her to retain her identity in the Fade rather than be absorbed and lost as Solas' friend was. Then we have the fact that the Qun seem to think that knowing Solas' true name is important. I questioned why this should be unless they know that it will give them some sort of power over him. This concept was also used in Neverwinter Nights: Hordes of the Underdark and I'm pretty sure crops up in other folklore as well. From there it found its way into fables like Rumplestiltskin. As for Elgar'nan and his connection to the sun, I've always been curious about this. He is said to be "Firstborn of the Sun" and fought his own father. Since the Maker is associated with the Sun and also the Wellspring of Life from which the spirits came, who are known as the Maker's first children, I rather wonder if Elgar'nan is the serpent with whom Ra/Maker wrestled and was temporarily subdued, causing the world to be plunged into darkness. Remember in the final book of the bible the translation of the text for the creature symbolising the devil can be either serpent or dragon, so the same could be true of Elgar'nan (and Mythal for that matter). The iconography of Tevinter has both dragons and serpents. I've always felt the way into the Black City is via a series of eluvians. However, we know from Masked Empire and our journey in Trespasser that the eluvians can lead into and through chambers before reaching their intended destination and those chambers could well be guarded by either demons or monsters created by Ghilan'nain, so that is a reasonable enough theory.
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Post by telanadas on Mar 17, 2021 7:32:24 GMT
As for Elgar'nan and his connection to the sun, I've always been curious about this. He is said to be "Firstborn of the Sun" and fought his own father. Since the Maker is associated with the Sun and also the Wellspring of Life from which the spirits came, who are known as the Maker's first children, I rather wonder if Elgar'nan is the serpent with whom Ra/Maker wrestled and was temporarily subdued, causing the world to be plunged into darkness. That's a good point, I'd forgotten about the story with him overthrowing the sun. I wonder if the writers will introduce even more primeval deities in DA4, or just leave us to wonder about how these elven gods actually found/harnessed these magical powers? I'm very interested to know what happened to Elgar'nan especially because if he was as important as Mythal, it does seem to me like the surviving powers that be tried to erase him from history, or rewrite his story as a self-serving, arrogant fool. There are so many interesting parallels between the mythologies of old around the world, such as the symbolism of the serpent and dragon. I know other cultures around the world also had similar beliefs of eclipses where they believed a dragon was devouring the sun. The parallels in Ra's story are particularly interesting to me because they also include the merging of Ra and Osiris at the end of his journey, which sounds to me a lot like Solas absorbing Mythal. In Egyptian mythology, Ra and Osiris became a singular being so a new dawn could emerge. At sunrise, Ra would swallow all the stars in the night sky, absorbing their power. This all sounds a lot to me like the mysterious stars in DA...like what are they are what power do they actually hold? If the stars in DA are indeed power taken from a titan's heart (based on all the symbolism in the artwork we've seen so far) could Elgar'nan's father have been a titan?
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Post by azarhal on Mar 17, 2021 12:40:29 GMT
could Elgar'nan's father have been a titan? The old DA pnp player's guide refers to Andruil as a "daughter of the Earth", there is a bunch of things that suggest she might have been a Pure too. Maybe Elgar'nan was a Titan or Andruil is his sister and not sibling. Or they were all Pure originally... Andruil also did something with the stars. He could even be Korth the Mountain-Father, although things point to that being Andruil as well, read this to understand from where this idea comes from.
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Post by gervaise21 on Mar 17, 2021 13:40:49 GMT
If the stars in DA are indeed power taken from a titan's heart (based on all the symbolism in the artwork we've seen so far) could Elgar'nan's father have been a titan? The old DA pnp player's guide refers to Andruil as a "daughter of the Earth", I've mentioned before how the legend of the battle between Elgar'nan and the Sun says that the stars were created from the blood of the Sun scattered in the fight. The silvery stars twinkling in the night sky definitely make me think of lyrium, so symbolically they could represent the blood of a titan shed in the battle. I do wonder why the writer chose to call the interior of the titan we discover in the Descent, the Wellspring, which is also the original name Andraste attributed to the Maker as the source of all life. According to the Dalish legend there was an earth mother and a sky father, so Elgar'nan was the firstborn of both. Are titans gender neutral? If not, there could be both male and female aspects among them? Or is the earth mother some other being? Then there are the dwarves. Apparently they were around before the Elgar'nan and Mythal laid low the titan, so surely they are the firstborn of the earth? That ancient conflict does seem to have been between the creatures of the earth (titans and dwarves) and the creatures of the air/sun (elves). Mythal though was slightly different in that she was born of the sea. However, was that a literal watery sea or the Fade or a sea of lyrium (again like we find in the Descent)? Andruil being described as a daughter of the earth is what made me come up with another theory which was that the First of the People were actually spirits who identified with aspects of nature: Elgar'nan - Sun/lightning; Mythal - Water/sea; Andruil - earth/forests; Falon'Din - air/fade (also the realm of the dead). Initially they were indeed the Creators as the Dalish designate them but after that initial war their nature changed to reflect the destructive aspects of nature. The longer these spirits remained outside the Fade, the more complex and disturbing their characters became.
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Post by azarhal on Mar 17, 2021 13:48:47 GMT
Andruil being described as a daughter of the earth is what made me come up with another theory which was that the First of the People were actually spirits who identified with aspects of nature: Elgar'nan - Sun/lightning; Mythal - Water/sea; Andruil - earth/forests; Falon'Din - air/fade (also the realm of the dead). Initially they were indeed the Creators as the Dalish designate them but after that initial war their nature changed to reflect the destructive aspects of nature. The longer these spirits remained outside the Fade, the more complex and disturbing their characters became. That sound like the spirit of the Brecilian forest in DAO, who was two opposite entities in one: Witherfang and the Lady of the Forest. The Lady of the Forest doesn't sound like a spirit who ever lived in the Fade...
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Post by gervaise21 on Mar 17, 2021 14:57:42 GMT
The Lady of the Forest doesn't sound like a spirit who ever lived in the Fade... I often wonder about her. She says that Zathrian summoned her out of the land not the Fade and when they discovered what he had done, the Dalish called it a crime against nature. In view of everything else we were told about spirits of the Fade, she definitely didn't seem like anything since the Veil was raised but that was another theory of mine, that the Fade actually changed the nature of spirits. If nothing else I wonder if there were more like her that were left on the Thedas side of the Veil after it was raised.
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Post by azarhal on Mar 17, 2021 15:39:15 GMT
The Lady of the Forest doesn't sound like a spirit who ever lived in the Fade... I often wonder about her. She says that Zathrian summoned her out of the land not the Fade and when they discovered what he had done, the Dalish called it a crime against nature. In view of everything else we were told about spirits of the Fade, she definitely didn't seem like anything since the Veil was raised but that was another theory of mine, that the Fade actually changed the nature of spirits. If nothing else I wonder if there were more like her that were left on the Thedas side of the Veil after it was raised. The Grand Oak (also in the Brecilian forest). He's not a normal Sylvan and he has some power over the forest too. I can't think of any in the other games, outside the Avvar's religion being animist despite using Fade spirits which could point to a pre-Veil belief/religion that adapted to the post-Veil world.
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Post by gervaise21 on Mar 17, 2021 17:40:03 GMT
I can't think of any in the other games, outside the Avvar's religion being animist despite using Fade spirits which could point to a pre-Veil belief/religion that adapted to the post-Veil world. We haven't seen any others up to now but now we are going north and likely headed for the Arlathan Forest, another forest with strong connections to the ancient elves (maybe they even planted it like they did the Brecillian) and Andruil in particular, perhaps we will encounter another nature spirit. Incidentally, the strange twisting horns on the arcane archer in the trailer reminded me most of the Lady of the Forest.
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Post by dadithinkimgay on Apr 9, 2021 18:55:19 GMT
Talks about stars, suns, moons, titans, and elves reminds me of this banter that was pointed out by user andarateia on twitter. It's quite interesting, given all that we know about the makeup of Thedas: "Oghren: How do you stand it? All that open air? Sometimes I look into that big black emptiness and it's like it's swallowing me up. Leliana: I like it. I like to imagine the sky goes on forever... boundless fields of stars, whirling and swirling eternally in their slow dance... Oghren: Not... helping. I don't like looking up and seeing a great infinite nothing. Leliana: You know, in the old days, people said that the sky was an immense vaulted ceiling, crafted by the Maker Himself to protect the world. But the ceiling-sky covered the world in shadow, and so He set in it the sun and moon, to light up the world below. And then He made the stars, and he laid them down in curious patterns, that man would look upon them and wonder what they represented. Oghren: So the sky is just the inside of a great sodding cave. Leliana: That's what they believed. And it gave them comfort. Oghren: Hmph. Then why the bleeding mud did your Maker build it so high up?" Replace Titans for the Maker, and there's a strong connection between this banter and The Wellspring. If the planet is just a floating rock sheltered inside of a cavern, then the shapes created would be a sphere inside of a sphere - which is a similar theme throughout ancient elven art, including Solas' paintings. That would then mean that the sun and moon are magically artificial, just like the veil that Solas created. Is this the wisdom that Solas found? What then could the Sun and Moon do besides providing light? Blue lyrium seems to connect with the Moon, while Red Lyrium seems to connect with the Sun... so could these also be Titan hearts, or made from/by the Titans? They are technically orbs, after all. The Sun and Moon may actually be balancing Thedas, just how they're described to do in Mythal and Elgar'nan's origin stories. Omg, what if the Moon is the stone? That would certainly explain the connection the dwarves have to Mythal, and it'd make sense as to why it needs to be protected if it truly provides balance. Let's look at the DWR teaser: The circle in the middle looks like the moon, and from the video teaser, it almost seems like a prison. So could something be trapped inside? Maybe the Forgotten Ones are trapped inside the moon, while The Evanuris are burning in the sun?
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Post by Black Magic Ritual on Apr 12, 2021 18:09:44 GMT
I've got one, I'll update the Andraste Thread with it too, but here goes: Andraste is the 8th Old God. I don't mean that's she's an actual Old God, but it's a reference to the fact that she's an Old God Baby. That would then muster up 8 Old Gods against the 9 confirmed Evanuris. The text from the constellation Draconis says: Called "High Dragon" in common parlance, the constellation Draconis is always depicted by a dragon in flight. Recently, it has come into question whether this was the case in the ancient Imperium. Most Tevinter dragon imagery was reserved for the Old Gods, so why would they dedicate a constellation to dragons in general when specific dragons were held in such reverence? This speculation is fuelled by older drawings showing Draconis as more serpentine in appearance, perhaps depicting a sea creature or an unknown eighth Old God that was stricken from historical record.
—From A Study of Thedosian Astronomy by Sister Oran Petrarchius It sounds like whoever came up with this Constellation wasn't apart of the Tevinter Cultists who came up with the others, but rather folded it along with them when they were being collected together. So why choose Draconis as a name? Maybe it means that an Old God Baby could be anyone should the ritual be performed. Or maybe it's a hidden reference to the universal appeal of the Maker? Which would fit nicely with the whole Andraste/Maker stuff in the background. Other Evidence: + Andraste and Draconis both contain 8 letters (coincidence?) and both are pronounced in 2 different parts (and-raste, draco-nis) + In Origins, the Warden and the Party fight a Draconis, which just so happens to be where the Ashes of Andraste are. + Andraste is a woman, and High Dragons are Women too. + The Cult literally believes that the High Dragon is really Andraste. (Maybe they were right all along ) Something else that intrigues me is that In Origins, Flemeth/Mythal will change into high dragon form to fight the Warden for her grimoire, or when she chooses to save Hawke in DA2. Like Andraste, she also has a Guardian in her Temple, but that's a High Dragon too instead of a Man. Could there be another budding connection here between the two?
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Post by gervaise21 on Apr 12, 2021 21:00:10 GMT
+ The Cult literally believes that the High Dragon is really Andraste. (Maybe they were right all along It is also worth noting that the ancient Neromenians believed that their heroes were reborn as dragons, whilst the Avvar believe that certain heroes are reborn but without conscious memory of their former existence, only remembering it via dreams and visions and they were an offshoot of the Alamarri. So the Cult of Andraste's beliefs were in keeping with ancient human beliefs both north and south. It is also curious that in Jaws of Hakkon, Ameridan worships Andraste as a divinity, equating her elevation to godhood to that of Ghilan'nain. This was doubly strange because according to the Chant of Light, Andraste maintained there was only one god, the Maker, so Ameridan's beliefs were out of keeping with the Chantry both on account of still acknowledging Ghilan'nain but also in elevating Andraste to godhood.
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Post by Black Magic Ritual on Apr 12, 2021 22:29:14 GMT
Another one, The First Warden was one of the seven magisters who tried to enter The Black City. I'm specifically thinking of the high priest of Razikale, the Augur of Mystery.
It bugs me that the First Warden has never been named once in universe, not even to differentiate between First Wardens of different time periods. That must mean there's something more to it when Bioware is being intentionally vague over their identity.
Maybe the First Warden felt remorseful, and started the Grey Wardens to fight against the blights and the remaining 6 magisters?
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Post by gervaise21 on Apr 13, 2021 7:04:57 GMT
Another one, The First Warden was one of the seven magisters who tried to enter The Black City. I'm specifically thinking of the high priest of Razikale, the Augur of Mystery. Where did you get this information from? I've never heard it before. However, I know from the Core Rule Book that the Wardens have always maintained that events were not the same as given by the Chantry and often wondered how they knew this. However, if the First Warden was one of the Magisters Sidereal then it must have rendered them immortal since the Grey Wardens weren't started for another 100 years. Also, if they felt remorseful, why did it take them so long to mount the fightback?
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Post by Absafraginlootly on Apr 13, 2021 8:28:15 GMT
Another one, The First Warden was one of the seven magisters who tried to enter The Black City. I'm specifically thinking of the high priest of Razikale, the Augur of Mystery. Where did you get this information from? I've never heard it before. However, I know from the Core Rule Book that the Wardens have always maintained that events were not the same as given by the Chantry and often wondered how they knew this. However, if the First Warden was one of the Magisters Sidereal then it must have rendered them immortal since the Grey Wardens weren't started for another 100 years. Also, if they felt remorseful, why did it take them so long to mount the fightback? I think they're suggesting it as a crazy theory for the crazy theory centre, not proven fact.
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Post by colfoley on Apr 13, 2021 9:01:05 GMT
+ The Cult literally believes that the High Dragon is really Andraste. (Maybe they were right all along It is also worth noting that the ancient Neromenians believed that their heroes were reborn as dragons, whilst the Avvar believe that certain heroes are reborn but without conscious memory of their former existence, only remembering it via dreams and visions and they were an offshoot of the Alamarri. So the Cult of Andraste's beliefs were in keeping with ancient human beliefs both north and south. It is also curious that in Jaws of Hakkon, Ameridan worships Andraste as a divinity, equating her elevation to godhood to that of Ghilan'nain. This was doubly strange because according to the Chant of Light, Andraste maintained there was only one god, the Maker, so Ameridan's beliefs were out of keeping with the Chantry both on account of still acknowledging Ghilan'nain but also in elevating Andraste to godhood. I mean I wouldn't be entirely sure but at least IRL I do believe there was at least some divergence in Christian Belief before Constantine unified everything. I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if something similar happened to Thedas, afterall Drakon is more or less Constantin already. So, I wouldn't the be the least bit surprised if thingsw were a lot more divergeant until the Chantry started to more unify itself because of the Second Blight and everything else going on at that time.
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Post by Black Magic Ritual on Apr 13, 2021 11:27:32 GMT
When I was first writing this, I accidently pressed the X button on accident and lost all my work. Ouch. However, I've become obsessed with DA in the past few days and the mystery around the 7 Old Gods, the 7 Magisters and the 9 Evanuris, so I've compiled a list about them, the equivalents, the constellations found in Inquisition and the Wardens who supposedly killed one in the prior 5 blights. Maybe DA4 will fill in the blanks? Let's do some Detective work It's As Follows: 0. Old God = Magister = Evanuris = Constellation = Warden who killed the Archdemon 1. Dumat = Corypheus = Mythal? = Silentir = Unknown2. Zazikel = Madman = ??? = Kios = Corin 3. Toth = Forgewright = ??? (June?) = Toth = Unknown (Maybe Sandal? ) 4. Andoral = Appraiser = ??? (Andruil?) = Servani = Garahel 5. Urthemiel = Architect = ??? ( Kieran?) = Bellitanus = Warden/Alistair/Loghain 6. Razikale = Augur = ??? (Dirthamen?) = Eluvia = Still to Awaken 7. Lusacan = Watchman = Falon'din? = Tenebrium = Still to Awaken Aside from the core 7 Old Gods, I've also added the supposed lost 8th God in Draconis and another proposed unknown 9th God to the equivalent of Solas. 8. Draconis = OGB? = Andraste? = Draconis = The Warden who slew Dumat performed the original dark ritual to survive? Is Andraste's Mythal's daughter like Morrigan is to Flemeth? 9. ??? = ??? Fen'harel? = Fenrir = ???
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Post by gervaise21 on Apr 13, 2021 18:01:05 GMT
So, I wouldn't the be the least bit surprised if thingsw were a lot more divergeant until the Chantry started to more unify itself because of the Second Blight and everything else going on at that time. Problem with this theory is that Drakon started unifying things with the sword before the 2nd Blight. If fact, if you didn't approve of his efforts you could argue the 2nd Blight was a comment by the Maker on what he was doing. Trouble is, it was the other Maker worshipers with differing beliefs that he killed off. This is why I find the friendship between Ameridan and Drakon so peculiar. Ameridan was fully aware of what Drakon had been doing to his co-religionists and yet apparently decided to ignore it and Drakon put Ameridan in charge of the Inquisition even though he has beliefs so at variance to his own. Drakon is easier to explain as Ameridan says it was to put people's minds at rest about bringing the Inquisition into the fold because they trusted Ameridan. Ameridan's trust of Drakon is harder to explain However, without a doubt, there were other cults to the Maker and not just the oddities that the Chantry choose to remember in order to justify what Drakon did. I dare say it was around the time of Drakon's expension of his empire that the people of Haven decided to withdraw from the outside world. He obviously must have got as far as Denerim because of the river and fortress that are named after him. There were also the Ash Warriors, who worshiped the Maker but rejected the Chantry and their Chant of Light, who were converted to their religion by their own prophet, Gelgennig before the Chantry came into existence. Also we shouldn't forget the Imperial Chantry, which also pre-dated Drakon's Chantry and presumably were originally called just the Cult of the Maker. However, their beliefs probably weren't at such variance to his own as some of the southern cults because Drakon's father was from Tevinter and so probably brought his own version of the religion with him that he taught to his son. Hence the belief in ruling by divine right, which is what the Magisters had always believed. The idea that mages should be educated by the state to serve the people was something that Hessarian started when he re-purposed the Old God Temples into the Tevinter Circles of Magi and Drakon never actually suggested that mages should be locked up but should simply not be allowed to rule or occupy positions of power. After all, you can't serve the community if you are locked away from the world.
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Post by gervaise21 on Apr 13, 2021 18:54:07 GMT
However, I've become obsessed with DA in the past few days and the mystery around the 7 Old Gods, the 7 Magisters and the 9 Evanuris, so I've compiled a list about them, the equivalents, the constellations found in Inquisition and the Wardens who supposedly killed one in the prior 5 blights I think it is a bit risky going entirely by the constellations. Remember the description for Draconis says that older drawings show a creature of more serpentine appearance, perhaps depicting a sea creature or unknown Old God that was stricken from the record. Well, the latest concept art that was revealed showed what looked like a serpentine creature of the sea and was credited with being an "evil god". Some now think this could be Ghilan'nain so maybe the constellation related to her. After all, whilst some scholars have suggested Equinor may have originally been a halla and thus connected to Ghilan'nain, others have pointed out that horses always had great significance in Neromenian culture. What I have wondered is whether the Old Gods instead of being directly related to the Evanuris (a split soul extension for example), may instead have been the manifestation of various high priests of the Creators. In the ancient writing about the sinner against the gods, it mentions that he flew in a form "reserved for the gods and their chosen" If the chosen of the gods were their high priests, then this might explain why the Old Gods ended up underground but only after the humans had seen them in their dragon form. We know that the humans arrived shortly before Solas raised the Veil and imprisoned the Evanuris, which is why the elves confused the two events and thought humans had something to do with their loss of immortality. However, the Dalish legends definitely recall that as a response to this they opted to withdraw from the world and must have gone into Uthenera because "The human world was changing even as the elves slept." We now know the elves seemed to have ruled underground as much as on the surface of the world, so it would make sense that some of their leaders would have chosen chambers underground in which to effectively hibernate whilst awaiting the return of their overlords, may be even shifting to dragon form before they did. We have also been told that the Dalish believe these Somniari were able to see the whole world through the Fade, tell their allies where their enemies were and in what numbers, send spirits to their aid and of course kill people in their sleep. What we also have been told recently is that the Old Gods were originally going to be depicted as actual demons rather than dragons and of course the Evanuris themselves would appear to have originally been powerful spirits that took on mortal forms. So it is likely their "chosen" were similarly powerful spirits and that seeing the potential in the humans to be controlled by them, encouraged their worship with the aim of eventually getting them to break into the Eternal City and free their gods. Unfortunately, not only had Fen'Harel booby trapped the place to prevent this but the city was already corrupted and breaking in released the taint. So moving to your list of Old Gods = Evanuris I tend to think slightly differently about the matches: Dumat = Dirthamen (because silence and secrets go together and Dirthamen's image shows him with hands across his mouth.) Zazikel = Andruil (because Zazikel was originally the goddess of freedom and the elves think of Andruil as a free spirit but whose actions we know became chaotic later) Toth = Sylaise (because both are associated with fire and Sylaise's fire "cannot be quenched") Andoral = Elgar'nan (Andoral was originally a god of unity before they became a god of slaves) Urthemial = June (because the Architect of Beauty may originally have been the Creator/Crafter of Beauty) Razikale = Mythal (because Mythal was known for her cities and Razikale is the patron and guardian of Minrathous) Lusacan = Falon'Din (I entirely agree with this one as everything point to it - also think he wanted to release the Blight) Draconis = Ghilan'nain because it seems likely she is the sea monster goddess and probably her constellation was originally called something different. There have also been hints in WoT2 about Mythal possibly having been in cahoots with Fen'Harel and his slave rebellion, so it seems far more likely that Andraste, an earlier embodiment of Mythal but less aware of it than Flemeth, was in communication with Solas (the Maker of the current world through the creation of the Veil) and this prompted her crusade to free all the slaves by ultimately marching on Minrathous. However, it is possible that Andraste was an earlier attempt at "saving" an Old God and so the equivalent of Kieran in her time, having received the soul of Dumat, who it has to be admitted was killed in the year of her birth. The reason I am more in favour of the Mythal link is that she is said to have only given birth to daughters, who in turn only gave birth to daughters, just like Flemeth and I have wondered if Flemeth was in fact one of the female line descendants of Andraste.
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