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Post by dayze on May 24, 2021 0:31:09 GMT
Looking at that; those wavy bits in the front could definitely be wings and the head could actually be the "snout" of a dragon. There are a couple "vines" to the side that the crown makes me think of; and lyrium kind of can be "vine-like". Maybe those vines are metaphors for lyrium and the god-dragon is some kind of cross between how Fenris is etched with lyrium and how Corypheus implanted red lyrium into his dragon?
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Post by dayze on May 24, 2021 0:36:50 GMT
I was looking over the Tarot cards in Inquisition recently, and this crazy theory I've got largely stems from the tarot for the Normal Difficulty option. I remember people thinking it was supposed to be Mythal and Elgar'nan, but more then anything I think it's supposed it's supposed to be Andraste and Shartan during the days of the exalted march against Tevinter. But why then is Shartan holding a staff that looks like the one Falon'din had? And why does he look like Solas with a crewcut? That and it looks like Shartan managed to get ahold of an orb as well. The second picture at first looking at it I thought it was Solas but the white hair makes me think it's flemeth, using a red lyrium idol/two orbs (five missing?) to protect a "tree"/reality from the dread wolf (possibly the blight) the fires could represent tears in the rift popping up everywhere? Something else to think about; when they talk about pulling the suns out of the heavens could it just be closing the rifts like in inquisition instead of defeating dragons? Also always wondered what the various tri-headed dragon images represented seems to be fire, lighting and air(possibly cold?) going by that Tarot-Card.
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Post by dayze on May 24, 2021 0:44:20 GMT
At some point in the chant it mentions that you are supposed to heed the call or the song of Wisdom "To my children venture, carrying wisdom, If they but listen, I shall return." This was the task he laid on Andraste, according to the Canticle of Andraste. Note it does not specifically mention a religious crusade but just spreading the knowledge. Also, it is not good enough just to recite the Chant parrot fashion; you need to listen and presumably act upon the wisdom (as that would prove you have listened). Since the majority of rulers in Thedas pay only lip service to the moral imperatives of the Chant, it is hardly surprising the Maker doesn't count spreading the Chant as fulfilling the condition for him to return. I don't think the Maker created Pride Demons because when he created the spirits, his first children, there were only spirits. According to the Chant his main problem was that the spirits didn't do anything but sing his praise and he wanted them to be creative, which is why he then created the material world, that would not be formless and ever changing like the Fade, and his second children, humans, to inhabit it who would be driven by a desire to constantly strive for something that could never be satisfied. It was only after the appearance of beings with emotions that the spirits started to identify with them, so if anything you could say that mortals created pride demons. Of course this has all been effectively rubbished by the revelation that there was once no Veil and spirits were able to move freely between the two planes of existence, so no need to experience the material world vicariously through the minds of mortals. Thus, based on the evidence of the Chant concerning spirits, if anyone was responsible for the creation of Pride Demons it was Solas (Pride himself) because the creation of the Veil did not simply change the nature of the elves but spirits as well. I'd also mention that as Solas was effectively the creator of the current state of existence and his two friends in the Fade were Wisdom and Purpose (the two things particularly valued by the Maker according to the Chant), it does suggest that the "Maker" who spoke to Andraste and urged her to free all the slaves was in fact Solas speaking from Uthenera. May be if people had heeded "his" wisdom then when he finally revived it would have been as Wisdom but instead when he awoke he was still Pride. This could also be a description for how to create a Maker-Spirit al the Avvar and their gods? Get enough angry people you get a rage spirit, get enough wise people and you get a "wisdom" spirit with a lot of "backing" to it and have it inhabit a body to represent the conceit of their being a maker?
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Post by gervaise21 on May 24, 2021 17:27:04 GMT
I was looking over the Tarot cards in Inquisition recently, and this crazy theory I've got largely stems from the tarot for the Normal Difficulty option. I remember people thinking it was supposed to be Mythal and Elgar'nan, but more then anything I think it's supposed it's supposed to be Andraste and Shartan during the days of the exalted march against Tevinter. But why then is Shartan holding a staff that looks like the one Falon'din had? And why does he look like Solas with a crewcut? If this was meant to be Andraste, why has she got a shield with dragons it when they are associated with her enemy Tevinter? (3 dragon heads in particular make me think of the 3 kingdoms that made up the Imperium, who all worshiped dragon gods). That odd headdress reminds me of something as well but I can't place it at the moment. Wait a minute, it looks a bit like the headdress on glow head. So that would link with Nevarra but might also be associated with death magic and thus Falon'Din. So the Tarot could be showing the twins Falon-Din and Dirthamen.
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Post by dadithinkimgay on May 24, 2021 18:35:33 GMT
Looking at that; those wavy bits in the front could definitely be wings and the head could actually be the "snout" of a dragon. There are a couple "vines" to the side that the crown makes me think of; and lyrium kind of can be "vine-like". Maybe those vines are metaphors for lyrium and the god-dragon is some kind of cross between how Fenris is etched with lyrium and how Corypheus implanted red lyrium into his dragon? If you read codex entries about Sylaise, she kept to herself and was seemingly envious of other gods, creating a song (Song to Sylaise) about how her power was stronger than the rest of the gods. The song itself sounds like a forced chant for appraisal, and other mentions of her directly point out how “It was SYLAISE that gave you this, it was SYLAISE that gave you that!” Seeing as she was married to June, who honestly just seems like a dwarf/elf (or just a dwarf) at this point, it’s possible she was the first Evanuris to enslave Elves using lyrium, effectively making them thralls for appraisal. Examining June’s and Sylaise relationship makes me believe their marriage was more political than anything, and if June is a dwarf, it could symbolize the coming together of two ancient parties- the elves and the dwarves. More lyrium, more slaves, more power. There’s also mentions of fire, vines, and blood magic in the deep roads that lead to shit hitting the fan for the elves. Not to mention that in the recent Dark Fortress comic, it is revealed that fire is involved in lyrium branding. Perhaps it was Sylaise own fire that was used to brand the elves.
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Post by Black Magic Ritual on May 24, 2021 20:32:20 GMT
I was looking over the Tarot cards in Inquisition recently, and this crazy theory I've got largely stems from the tarot for the Normal Difficulty option. I remember people thinking it was supposed to be Mythal and Elgar'nan, but more then anything I think it's supposed it's supposed to be Andraste and Shartan during the days of the exalted march against Tevinter. But why then is Shartan holding a staff that looks like the one Falon'din had? And why does he look like Solas with a crewcut? If this was meant to be Andraste, why has she got a shield with dragons it when they are associated with her enemy Tevinter? (3 dragon heads in particular make me think of the 3 kingdoms that made up the Imperium, who all worshiped dragon gods). That odd headdress reminds me of something as well but I can't place it at the moment. Wait a minute, it looks a bit like the headdress on glow head. So that would link with Nevarra but might also be associated with death magic and thus Falon'Din. So the Tarot could be showing the twins Falon-Din and Dirthamen. I thought the shield was Avvar/Alamarri in origin, reminds me of the whole rebirth cycle that they believe in right? It does look like a spiral that goes around and round, like an endless cycle of rebirthing anew. Dragons are probably just the DA equivalent to Eagles on flags and nationalist stuff IRL.
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Post by Black Magic Ritual on May 27, 2021 12:18:59 GMT
I forgot to mention this, but the team at Bioware did release concept art of a few DA party members (?) a few months ago. Besides the Antivan Lady, a Grey Warden in the middle (protagonist?) and a mage dude on the right (Kieran? it looks like him) there are two dragons in the background, possibly Archdemons? One of them looks like they have a crown on their head, and you know who else has a crown on their head? Boom. Andraste/Dumat as a party member.
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Post by fluffysmom on Jun 1, 2021 7:54:49 GMT
This has likely been discussed by folks before but I’ve been replaying Trespasser and noticed that Cole says:
“They made bodies from the earth and the earth was afraid. It fought back but they made it forget.”
So I’m guessing the elves made dwarves as an experiment, out of boredom or perhaps extra labor and when the titans fought back they killed them/put them to sleep which severed the dwarves and made them forget as well? Since no one seems to remember why there are elven ruins and statues underground. A bit of the Shaperate erasing history over time too?
I’ve never been interested in the dwarven side of the lore until now. I really hope they get their turn for deeper lore in the next game. The concept art has my hopes up.
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Post by gervaise21 on Jun 1, 2021 9:22:20 GMT
So I’m guessing the elves made dwarves as an experiment, out of boredom or perhaps extra labor and when the titans fought back they killed them/put them to sleep which severed the dwarves and made them forget as well? No, the dwarves were already underground and connected with the titans as the ancient text in the Temple of Mythal explains: " In this place we prepare to hunt the pillars of the earth. Their workers scurry, witless, soulless. This death will be a mercy. We will make the earth blossom with their passing." The titan in the Descent sees the dwarves as its children but something the elves did severed that mental connection, which the titan re-established with Valta. The Sha'Brytol also had some sort of connection to the titan and sought to protect it but they didn't sooth it like Valta could. The reason the elves saw the dwarves as "witless, soulless" workers is because they had no connection with the Fade. In other words they were wholly of the earth and their connection was with the "pillars of the earth". The elves were interlopers and objected to the earthquakes caused by the titans in response to the magic they used to create their structures, probably on the surface. " Give us victory, over the Earth that shakes our cities." So Mythal and Elgar'nan went underground and subdued the titans in some way so they no longer reacted to the magic being used. No doubt at the same time they discovered that the titan's blood could actually aid magic and magical construction. Meanwhile, by severing (or at least greatly weakening) the titans connection to the dwarves, they freed them up to act as an additional workforce for them, particularly underground. It is likely that the dwarves engaging in mining lyrium occurred at this time and the reason the gods used them in preference to their own workers is because of their resistance to the negative side-effects of mining the lyrium. Also since dwarves are not innately magical, they couldn't use the lyrium against them as their own people could. I have a theory that there will be some record of this in Kal-Sharok. That was the original capital of the dwarves, until their king decided to move it south to Orzammar for reasons that are not entirely clear. We've been told this was because they feared the Tevinter Imperium, yet they had an alliance with them and a monopoly on the lyrium supply that Tevinter needed. Clearly Tevinter was not a threat to the dwarves because Kal-Sharok remained free despite the presence of the Imperium so close to them, so I feel there has to be some other reason for this. Kal-Sharok also reacted very badly to another thaig helping the elves fleeing Arlathan Forest. Now it is curious that the elves would flee to Cad'Halash, as though they knew it was there and likely an eluvian led to it, or alternatively there was a direct route through the Deep Roads. So Cad'Halash didn't apparently think it odd to have elves turn up in the thaig, even though elves had been largely absent from the Thedas landscape for around 2000 years, so they had to have been aware of a previous connection. Then word got back to Kal-Sharok and they reacted by destroying the thaig. May be they remembered the elves all too well in their Memories and this was pay-back time. It was hardly surprising they sided with the Imperium if the elven empire was the one that had previously enslaved them. I really hope we go to Kal-Sharok next game and also that we get some more answers about dwarven lore as a result.
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Post by fluffysmom on Jun 3, 2021 7:56:47 GMT
Since I don’t have anyone in my day-to-day to throw this stuff at I’ll just randomly post here to keep reminding myself that I’m horrible at theory crafting and soaking up lore.
Something that has always stuck with me is the random note or codex you find in the fade talking about how if dwarves could dream then the rocks in the fade likely wouldn’t float. The rocks would know how to be rocks in other words. Would it be possible to reach the Black City if it wasn’t floating?
In the song it says that Mythal gave them dreams (I can actually kinda see Solas doing this given how much he dislikes people being cut off from it and them just giving credit to her for it), and if true what if that allowed the elven gods to reach it. And then the line about Solas breaking the dreams to keep the old dreams from waking was him getting it back out of reach of the gods and re-sealing what was inside. “They (dwarves) remember when they were higher, before it woke up and everything fell.” You break dreams by severing someone’s connection to the fade, right? Which would make the Titans/Evanuris/Veil all the same incident pretty much?
I know a lot of this has already been tossed around but it’s mainly the dwarf/fade thing I’m interested in. It will not leave my brain.
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Post by Black Magic Ritual on Jun 4, 2021 10:13:14 GMT
Could it be possible that the elves didn't even worship the Evanuris until after the First Blight? I say this because in Serault: There was an older cult of the Masked Andraste, who celebrates Andraste as a hunter. Rituals to her often involve animal sacrifice, and are said to spur the growth of fruit and nuts, as well as attract large game animals.
It sounds very similar to Andruil, the elven Goddess of the Hunt. I think it would make more sense that elves only started worshipping the Evanuris until after the First Exalted March against Tevinter, no?
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Post by gervaise21 on Jun 4, 2021 11:03:29 GMT
There was an older cult of the Masked Andraste, who celebrates Andraste as a hunter. Rituals to her often involve animal sacrifice, and are said to spur the growth of fruit and nuts, as well as attract large game animals. Isn't this a human cult to Andraste? We know there were a lot of different variants in the period after Andraste's death up until when Drakon decided to "simplify" things. The Avvar also have gods that seem equivalent to elven ones or a combination of more than one: Korth is an authoritarian figure like Elgar'nan, although his is described as a hunter who guided the barbarians to the region (Andruil or Ghilan'nain?). Still it shows that having a god/goddess of hunting would have been important to them, for the obvious reason they were hunter gatherers. Uvolla of the Wending Wood is a lesser goddess who nevertheless needs to be appeased with living sacrifices (Andruil?). Sigfrost is the god of wisdom, who takes the form of a giant bear, so clearly the same as Dirthamen, whose sacred creature is a bear. Imhar the Clever is a trickster god who relies on his wits rather than his strength to triumph, so sounds much like Fen'Harel. Rilla of the Fireside who is associated with motherhood and babies, as is Sylaise, who is also linked with fire. Fulmenos whose symbol is a thunderbolt, thrown in wrath - clearly Elgar'nan who is linked to lightning in the Temple of Mythal. The Lady of the Skies - either Mythal or Falon'Din because she is associated with funeral rituals and re-birth. Hakkon - War and Winter - again could be Falon'Din if we believe Solas' version of him. Now as I say, many of these things are found in different religions without them being the same deity, so it doesn't necessarily follow that just because they have the same areas of interest the Avvar and the elven gods are the same beings. For a people who are close to nature it is hardly surprising the Avvar have gods associated with the natural world and thus the people of Serault were likely the same, having their origins in the southern barbarians. Also, since the Augur makes it clear they know they are worshiping spirits, those spirits could have been mimicking earlier gods in the way they behave. However, some of the Avvar stories, particularly concerning the home of the gods which was lifted into the skies (Fade?), does seem very close to what we know actually happened that it would indicate they were at least around to witness it. However, I don't quite understand why the evidence of a cult of Andraste dedicated to her as a hunter would lead you to believe that the elves didn't start worshiping their own gods until after the Exalted March against Tevinter? There seems a likelihood that some memories were handed down orally among the elven slaves because what they remember is close enough to reality that it hardly seems likely they made up their religion entirely from what they found in old ruins in the south. How would they have known that Ghilan'nain was a late edition to the Creators? How would they have known about Fen'Harel's treachery? Why would they shun those elves who worshiped a different set of gods? Where did those elves get their ideas from? It is also possible there were other enclaves of elves outside of Tevinter who were never enslaved and made their way to the Dales on the establishment of the elven nation there, taking their religion with them. It is a pity we don't know exactly what Shartan's views were on religion but we know that Ameridan felt there was nothing wrong in worshiping both his own gods and the Maker. Incidentally, the modern elves have never worshiped the Evanuris, a term meaning simply Leaders (as confirmed by Solas). They worship the Creators and believe they were responsible for the development of elven civilisation from its primitive beginnings. Where did they get that idea from if not some oral tradition handed down among them in secret?
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Post by Black Magic Ritual on Jun 4, 2021 17:23:48 GMT
There was an older cult of the Masked Andraste, who celebrates Andraste as a hunter. Rituals to her often involve animal sacrifice, and are said to spur the growth of fruit and nuts, as well as attract large game animals. Isn't this a human cult to Andraste? We know there were a lot of different variants in the period after Andraste's death up until when Drakon decided to "simplify" things. The Avvar also have gods that seem equivalent to elven ones or a combination of more than one: Korth is an authoritarian figure like Elgar'nan, although his is described as a hunter who guided the barbarians to the region (Andruil or Ghilan'nain?). Still it shows that having a god/goddess of hunting would have been important to them, for the obvious reason they were hunter gatherers. Uvolla of the Wending Wood is a lesser goddess who nevertheless needs to be appeased with living sacrifices (Andruil?). Sigfrost is the god of wisdom, who takes the form of a giant bear, so clearly the same as Dirthamen, whose sacred creature is a bear. Imhar the Clever is a trickster god who relies on his wits rather than his strength to triumph, so sounds much like Fen'Harel. Rilla of the Fireside who is associated with motherhood and babies, as is Sylaise, who is also linked with fire. Fulmenos whose symbol is a thunderbolt, thrown in wrath - clearly Elgar'nan who is linked to lightning in the Temple of Mythal. The Lady of the Skies - either Mythal or Falon'Din because she is associated with funeral rituals and re-birth. Hakkon - War and Winter - again could be Falon'Din if we believe Solas' version of him. Now as I say, many of these things are found in different religions without them being the same deity, so it doesn't necessarily follow that just because they have the same areas of interest the Avvar and the elven gods are the same beings. For a people who are close to nature it is hardly surprising the Avvar have gods associated with the natural world and thus the people of Serault were likely the same, having their origins in the southern barbarians. Also, since the Augur makes it clear they know they are worshiping spirits, those spirits could have been mimicking earlier gods in the way they behave. However, some of the Avvar stories, particularly concerning the home of the gods which was lifted into the skies (Fade?), does seem very close to what we know actually happened that it would indicate they were at least around to witness it. However, I don't quite understand why the evidence of a cult of Andraste dedicated to her as a hunter would lead you to believe that the elves didn't start worshiping their own gods until after the Exalted March against Tevinter? There seems a likelihood that some memories were handed down orally among the elven slaves because what they remember is close enough to reality that it hardly seems likely they made up their religion entirely from what they found in old ruins in the south. How would they have known that Ghilan'nain was a late edition to the Creators? How would they have known about Fen'Harel's treachery? Why would they shun those elves who worshiped a different set of gods? Where did those elves get their ideas from? It is also possible there were other enclaves of elves outside of Tevinter who were never enslaved and made their way to the Dales on the establishment of the elven nation there, taking their religion with them. It is a pity we don't know exactly what Shartan's views were on religion but we know that Ameridan felt there was nothing wrong in worshiping both his own gods and the Maker. Incidentally, the modern elves have never worshiped the Evanuris, a term meaning simply Leaders (as confirmed by Solas). They worship the Creators and believe they were responsible for the development of elven civilisation from its primitive beginnings. Where did they get that idea from if not some oral tradition handed down among them in secret? I think what I was trying to get at was that the Evanuris - or at least the current version that the elves worship, was only finalized after the 1st Exalted March when Shartan and Andraste were defeated, and then during The Long Walk when the elves went back to the homeland promised to them by Maferath. I say this because there's a shrine built by Ameridan that venerates both Andraste and Ghilan'nain. Now that's a random pairing on the surface since you'd think that Ameridan would equate Andraste to Mythal, but if Andraste WAS Mythal's daughter then it would make sense to equate her with Andruil. Thus, putting Andraste/Andruil in a room together with Ghilan'nain would make much more sense. If that were true, then Andruil (in her current form) would've largely been based off Andraste, whom the elves would have known at some point during the Exalted March.
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Post by gervaise21 on Jun 4, 2021 18:13:40 GMT
If that were true, then Andruil (in her current form) would've largely been based off Andraste, whom the elves would have known at some point during the Exalted March. The problem with this theory is that in Dalish lore, Andruil is not thought of as a martial deity but more a free spirited child of nature. The Three Trees is very much focused on the skills required as a hunter and respecting the natural world. Meanwhile, there has never been any suggestion of Andraste as a hunter, outside of this obscure cult in Serault. The Dalish seeing Andruil as a hunter is very much in keeping with how the ancient elves saw the goddess. The link that Ameridan made between Andraste and Ghilan'nain was that they were both elevated to godhood by an already established deity. For him to regard Andraste as Mythal's daughter, he would have to see the Maker as Mythal. This would be very odd considering the elven gods were said to have fallen silent when they were locked away and the Dalish were totally unaware that Mythal was not among them. So why would he equate the Maker with Mythal, when the Maker spoke to Andraste? To be honest, Ameridan's beliefs about Andraste are very strange as he regards her as worthy of divine worship among a pantheon of other gods, when Andraste herself allegedly taught (according to the Chant) that there is only one god, the Maker. "They are sinners who have given their love to false gods." So if Ameridan thought there was nothing wrong in his worship of both Andraste and Ghilan'nain, then maybe those words of Andraste in the Chant were not genuine but something attributed to her by Drakon and his new Divine. After all, we know from the Canticle of Shartan that the Dalish had their own oral tradition concerning Andraste and Shartan, which was likely only included in the the Chant because at that time Drakon needed to keep the elves from interfering in his unification of the human tribes, which they might well have done if they saw him as a threat. As it is, it didn't entirely fool them as Ameridan says they thought Drakon was no better than Tevinter but since he left the elves alone, they presumably regarded it as a purely human matter. Ameridan also alluded to some sort of alliance between Drakon and the Dalish, which we had never heard of before but maybe both sides chose to forget, but if it did exist then likely a condition of the alliance was that Drakon should acknowledge the contribution of Shartan and the debt of gratitude owed to him. Anyway, today I noticed something else interesting about Tevinter beliefs. Namely the legend of Lake Calenhad. Apparently it was believed that Razikale had blessed the waters and those who drank them were given special insights. For this reason they built the tower on the island in the middle of the lake in the hope it would aid their magical research. However, it is called Kinloch Hold, which would suggest a structure built by the Avvar, or at least the Alamarri. So it is possible that the current tower was built on the site of the earlier barbarian structure and in both cases it was constructed in that location because of the magical energies there. The Avvar also had a legend about the creation of the lake, saying it was the site of Belenas, the City of the Gods, which was destroyed in a battle between Korth and the great serpent, Nathramar, after which the crater was filled with the tears of the Lady of the Skies on seeing the destruction. However, the Avvar have an alternative version of the removal of Belenas from the earth into the sky, saying this was done by the Lady of the Skies at the request of Korth. Now I've said in my previous post that Korth sounded a lot like Andruil and of course she fought Mythal in the form of a great serpent, so even if the Avvar gods are just spirits of the Fade, it would seem they have either claimed or were attributed by the Avvar with the same history as that of Andruil and Mythal. Did the ancient barbarians actually witness the battle? Did one of the later Augurs see the battle in a dream? Or did the Avvar find some ancient cave art depicting the battle? Whatever the case, the fact that the removal of the City of the Gods was said to have happened either simultaneously or shortly after this battle, maybe that does mean that Mythal's death did follow only a short time after her conflict with Andruil. If the lake is situated at the site of that ancient battle, it might explain the strong magical vibes of the area. Also the idea of magical water associated with a goddess also points to Mythal, strengthening the theory that Mythal and Razikale could be one and the same. It also explains why the priesthood of Razikale decided to look for answers in and around the area of the Frostback Mountains.
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Post by xerrai on Jun 5, 2021 18:33:02 GMT
If that were true, then Andruil (in her current form) would've largely been based off Andraste, whom the elves would have known at some point during the Exalted March. [...] Anyway, today I noticed something else interesting about Tevinter beliefs. Namely the legend of Lake Calenhad. Apparently it was believed that Razikale had blessed the waters and those who drank them were given special insights. For this reason they built the tower on the island in the middle of the lake in the hope it would aid their magical research. However, it is called Kinloch Hold, which would suggest a structure built by the Avvar, or at least the Alamarri. So it is possible that the current tower was built on the site of the earlier barbarian structure and in both cases it was constructed in that location because of the magical energies there. The Avvar also had a legend about the creation of the lake, saying it was the site of Belenas, the City of the Gods, which was destroyed in a battle between Korth and the great serpent, Nathramar, after which the crater was filled with the tears of the Lady of the Skies on seeing the destruction. However, the Avvar have an alternative version of the removal of Belenas from the earth into the sky, saying this was done by the Lady of the Skies at the request of Korth. Now I've said in my previous post that Korth sounded a lot like Andruil and of course she fought Mythal in the form of a great serpent, so even if the Avvar gods are just spirits of the Fade, it would seem they have either claimed or were attributed by the Avvar with the same history as that of Andruil and Mythal. Did the ancient barbarians actually witness the battle? Did one of the later Augurs see the battle in a dream? Or did the Avvar find some ancient cave art depicting the battle? Whatever the case, the fact that the removal of the City of the Gods was said to have happened either simultaneously or shortly after this battle, maybe that does mean that Mythal's death did follow only a short time after her conflict with Andruil. If the lake is situated at the site of that ancient battle, it might explain the strong magical vibes of the area. Also the idea of magical water associated with a goddess also points to Mythal, strengthening the theory that Mythal and Razikale could be one and the same. It also explains why the priesthood of Razikale decided to look for answers in and around the area of the Frostback Mountains. Well if we are going with traditional theorized connections, Razikale is usually connected to Dirthamen isn't he? God of Secrets and all that. Both known for knowledge and the like. Personally, attributing the possibly-evhen site to Mythal just because its surrounded by water doesn't seem particularly compelling. Even if we are talking about the ancient elves, building sites by, near, or on water just seems like something any god would be willing to do. Water is, after all, a necessary component for survival and most forms of agriculture. It's not entirely out of the realm of possibility, though. I can't say I am all too certain which evanuris would have held Lake Calenhad tbh... But the possible connection to Belenas is interesting. I wasn't aware of the "great serpent" tale, but it does open a certain possibility. We usually connect Belenas to Arlathan since it was the city of the gods and all, or at least the city of the pantheon's patriarch/matriarch. But what if was some other city? Because we do know of at least one other elvhen city that has a similar description. It was said to reside high in the mountains, benefited from a god's gifts, and was indeed attacked by a creature that was described as a "serpent". A city where, when it was threatened, allegedly had Dirthamen "breath" life into a collection of rock of tree to create a fearsome creature capable of defeating dragons? A city that was allegedly destroyed when it crumbled to dust over time? We don't know its real name, but it was referred to as "Dirthamen's City" by Gisharel who had to have his tale come from somewhere. Maybe back in the day, the avvar or the Dalish came upon the ruins of the city, defeated the varterral, and allowed people to build atop of the left over rubble. I can't quite account for the whole "crater" and/or "lifted into the sky" bit, though. Not if I continue viewing Korth as a hidden analogue to an evanuris. Now if Korth was an active Titan on the other hand...
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Post by gervaise21 on Jun 5, 2021 21:54:09 GMT
Personally, attributing the possibly-evhen site to Mythal just because its surrounded by water doesn't seem particularly compelling. It is more to do with the fact that the priests of Razikale thought the waters granted them magical insight and that is what the Well of Sorrows did, so it is the association between drinking or bathing or even being near the water and receiving knowledge that made me link it to Mythal, whose Temple in the Arbor Wilds was also constructed in the middle of a lake. Whilst Dirthamen is connected with secrets and knowledge, his temple was underground and rather gloomy, although I grant that there was also water there, but I don't think any magic was actually connected with the water. So it is possible there was a Temple to Mythal in the city in the Arbor Wilds, a shrine in the Frostbacks and then a Temple on the other side of the mountains, possibly connected with a city there that was later destroyed, leaving just the foundations of the temple to be built over by subsequent human inhabitants of the area.
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Post by dadithinkimgay on Jun 9, 2021 21:33:57 GMT
Shall we theorize over this image? I've been thinking about what it represents, and what that could mean in terms of lore. Firstly, obviously Solas painted this. When Solas paints his murals, he often tells it in a three-part story, evidenced by his Trespasser murals. So what story is Solas telling here? We see The Black City as the focus of the piece, the part of the mural which most of the characters are focusing on. The characters themselves - The Dread Wolf, Meredith, and Cory are seemingly trying to infiltrate the Black City. The Dread Wolf is the one to break in. We know that Cory wanted into The Black City, but what about Meredith? She was just a Templar in Kirkwall who went a little crazy, right? She cared about justice against the mages and protecting the city. Except, she didn't. Whatever she believed in turned into something corrupted. She says something to Hawke that's pretty noteworthy and easily missable: "I will be rewarded for what I've done here. In this world, and the next." I think that quote goes beyond Meredith's own personal understanding of the makeup of Thedas. It sounds like something Flemeth or Solas would say. So Meredith was not only corrupted by the red lyrium idol, she was influenced by it - we just never got to find out how far that influence could have gone. And we see that in this mural. Whoever, or whatever, was speaking to her, they are reflected above her, with lyrium flowing from their body. This figure is arguably Andruil. She has been mentioned time and time again in codex entries regarding red lyrium. So "whispers written in red lyrium" may come from her, and she likely was whispering to Meredith to lead her toward a path of eventually breaking into The Black City. So Meredith and Cory were manipulated. The lingering question for Cory is - who is the figure above, and how do they relate to Cory? Cory has tried to infiltrate The Black City twice, but since Cory is seen with the orb in this piece, I'm going to go with the figure above whispering to Cory during his second attempt of infiltrating. According to codex entries found in The Arbor Wilds, we know the orb whispered knowledge to Cory. So as Andruil spoke to Meredith through red lyrium idol, could the figure above represent the voices behind the Orb? A likely suspect is Dumat, as Cory literally worshipped the god. But we obviously don't know who these Old Gods were, and, truthfully, they seem to connect to The Evanuris - or at least the Ancient elves. Taking a wild guess, based off the design, I'd say the figure above is Dirthamen (I would say that Dirthamen has more to do with the orb than he does with Dumat.) Andruil looks like a bow and arrow because she's a hunter. Dirthamen looks like some kind of lobster beetle, able to retract back into their shell to stay hidden. Their designs are also similar to the portraits we saw in DAI. Look at Andruil's spikes on her armor and bow, and the waves of energy emanating from her; Dirthamen's hands and garment are also similar to the lobster's claws: Now this leads me an important question: If both the idol and the orb are Solas', then how is Meredith being manipulated by Andruil, and how is Cory being manipulated by Dirthamen? Could these artifacts be a seal for their prisons? Could they be their prisons? Does Solas have more artifacts lying around Thedas? What of the glass halla in Ruins of Reality, that seemed to manipulate time and space itself? Mythal put a piece of her soul into jewelry, so I wouldn't doubt that it'd be possible for Solas or The Evanuris to do the same for these artifacts. It's difficult to answer and even theorize, but to take a wild guess, all artifacts may connect the parties together - Solas, The Evanuris, The Dread Wolf (notice how the circles in the design of the artifacts match the iris of The Dread Wolf) - in the event of creating the veil and sealing the Gods away. Obviously Solas didn't do such a good job if The Gods can wreck this much havoc from their prisons, but Solas is certainly done with their BS, as evidenced by this mural. He's settling it once and for all on his own terms, and it's going to be drastic, but it must be done.
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Post by fluffysmom on Jun 10, 2021 0:20:59 GMT
Is it the Black City though? I thought it pretty much matched the floating thing in the Tevinter art. Like it might hold what he needs to destroy the veil.
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Post by dadithinkimgay on Jun 10, 2021 4:02:08 GMT
Is it the Black City though? I thought it pretty much matched the floating thing in the Tevinter art. Like it might hold what he needs to destroy the veil. I thought that at first, but the architecture of the buildings is different. One also has to wonder what Meredith and Corypheus would have to do with that structure. The city is not only infested with red lyrium, but it looks blighted. There’s also an unsettling red hue surrounding it. I believe it’s the Black City.
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Post by fluffysmom on Jun 10, 2021 6:58:04 GMT
Is it the Black City though? I thought it pretty much matched the floating thing in the Tevinter art. Like it might hold what he needs to destroy the veil. I thought that at first, but the architecture of the buildings is different. One also has to wonder what Meredith and Corypheus would have to do with that structure. The city is not only infested with red lyrium, but it looks blighted. There’s also an unsettling red hue surrounding it. I believe it’s the Black City. I didn’t figure it was them tied to it so much as their actions. Her using the idol and Cory using his blight tainted magic with the orb that caused red lyrium to spread even further. His murals always depicted the Inquisitor’s choices/actions as well as his own at the end. Just as their choices have put the world in the state its in. And who knows, maybe in the years after when 4 takes place, Tevinter could be corrupted by lyrium to some degree that gets worse as we play. I could see some of the mages getting desperate enough to use red lyrium against the Qunari if they’ve gained too much of a foothold.
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Post by dadithinkimgay on Jun 10, 2021 14:07:51 GMT
I thought that at first, but the architecture of the buildings is different. One also has to wonder what Meredith and Corypheus would have to do with that structure. The city is not only infested with red lyrium, but it looks blighted. There’s also an unsettling red hue surrounding it. I believe it’s the Black City. I didn’t figure it was them tied to it so much as their actions. Her using the idol and Cory using his blight tainted magic with the orb that caused red lyrium to spread even further. His murals always depicted the Inquisitor’s choices/actions as well as his own at the end. Just as their choices have put the world in the state its in. And who knows, maybe in the years after when 4 takes place, Tevinter could be corrupted by lyrium to some degree that gets worse as we play. I could see some of the mages getting desperate enough to use red lyrium against the Qunari if they’ve gained too much of a foothold. I’m not so sure about that. This structure and the structure in Tevinter are shaped the same, but they have different architecture throughout. It’s noticeable if you were to bring up the trailer and compare it side by side with this image. It’d also make a lot of sense for Tevinter to take that architectural plan from the ancient elves, as it’s their MO to take from their dead empire.
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Post by gervaise21 on Jun 10, 2021 15:02:23 GMT
If you compare these images it would seem there is a similarity between ancient Tevinter architecture, as seen in Kirkwall, and that of the Black City, both from a distance and in the stylised drawing of it in the prologue to DAO. This could be because the ancient humans took over elven structures and then used them as a basis for their own designs or they could have been inspired by what they saw in the Fade. If we assume that city was always visible and was believed by both elves and humans to be the home of the gods, it is hardly surprising that their rules would want to copy the appearance of the golden city. What strikes me about the image in the latest video is that there would seem to be two cities, identical in appearance but one more distinct than the other. This seems to lend credence to a theory I have long held that the city in the Fade is in fact either a reflection of a hidden city in the Waking World or possibly the hidden city is the other half of a whole that was sundered by the Veil. Whatever the case, when Cory and his pals briefly broke in, the two parts were connected, either allowing the Blight to spread from the earthbound city into the Fade city (as suggested in the Chant), or simply breaking the illusion of it retaining its golden appearance because the city had been cut off in the Waking World precisely because it was corrupted but this only became apparent in the reflected city once they broke in (Cory's version). Essentially the city was golden so long as people believed it was golden but once the Magisters Sidereal discovered the truth, everyone could see that it was in fact corrupt. So this latest image could be showing how if/when the Dread Wolf breaks through the Veil, the twin cities will be reunited. I have no doubt it is meant to be the Black City and the top image is in the Fade because of it having no up or down, whilst the other is much sharper suggesting it is grounded in reality. In DAO when Tamlen looks into the eluvian he can see a black city that seems underground, which is why I've always thought that perhaps that had some connection with the city we can see in the Fade. As for the images of the two "gods", I am unwilling to speculate too much at this stage, apart from the fact that they are upside down, which could indicate they are coming out of the Fade. Are the golden discs behind their heads simply images of the moon or sun? Or could this be suggesting their own orbs and link back to the two remaining golden discs in the Dread Wolf Rises? In which case, if the blacked out discs indicate gods who are no longer active/old gods who have been slain by the Grey Wardens, then these two gods correspond to the two remaining golden discs around the edge of that image. If they are Old Gods, that would point to Razikale and Lusacan.
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Post by bloodmagereaver on Jun 12, 2021 18:56:01 GMT
Well...
I don't think that the old gods are the elven gods because their genders don't match as there are three female goddesses and four gods in the supposed Pantheon excluding Mythal and Solas versus the six males and one female of the older gods.
However, there is a connection between them in that one may have directly empowered the other.
To be blunt I think that the old gods were the first spirits made by the maker before he made the titans and the physical realm.
The Maker himself has a dragon form which explains the arch demons being a corrupted mockery of him.
Those spirits helped the Maker make the elves and the titans helped him make the dwarves.
All was going well until the old gods decided that their creation was better than the titans' and taught Mythal how to kill their rival "gods".
The Maker got pissed off at this transgression and sealed the old gods in their prisons but this didn't stop the war from continuing and the Maker decided to abandon the world leaving the taint of darkspawn behind as punishment to those that continued warring.
Without the old gods guiding them but fueled by their titan slaying capabilities the Evanuris took on the mantles of the deities they once worshiped and nearly destroyed the world by digging the blinght from under the titans' realm.
When Solas made the veil and stopped the war, the Maker returned and made the humans to succeed at what the elves and dwarves failed to accomplish.
The kossith meanwhile came into being through blood magic experimentation of surviving elves trying to use dragon blood to stall the quickening.
The old gods saw the humans as their get out of prison cards and unlike the Evanuris who knew what they are and came to the conclusion they could live without them the ignorant humans followed them credously.
Once again the Maker got pissed and left but not before bobby trapping the Golden City, which is actually sealed Arlathan with the same taint he left below the titans.
The old gods wanting freedom believed that the Golden City was their key to it when in truth it was just a clever trap from the Maker to kill them and their followers.
If Solas free the old gods and the Evanuris when he destroys the veil then he likely plans to throw one against the other to prevent any dominant force from taking over Thedas.
Personally I think the Maker will sort of intervene if Solas gets his way and our new protagonist will become a demi god of sorts.
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Post by azarhal on Jun 16, 2021 23:35:02 GMT
I was in the thread "Role of the Inquisitor And Inquisition in DA4" and I was thinking about how the Inquisition/Inquisitor can't have any important role because Solas is near omniscient now and would easily track the protagonist if they interacted with the Inquisition. Solas can track people through the Fade, killed them while in the Fade. He has spirit as spies, along lots of physical people that he talks to and monitor via the Fade. And he can used Eluvians for scrying to spy on anyone now apparently. That's as good as omniscient in the setting. I pushed my reflection to "who can hide" from Solas and the answer was: the tranquils. They aren't connected to the Fade so he can't track them or talk to them in the Fade and spirits tend to ignore them. Also, Solas probably don't even see them as alive, which means he ignores them even more than everyone else does. That lead to more thinking (down the rabbit hole you know) and now I'm wondering if people cured of tranquility are reconnected to the Fade directly or if the spirit that fix them act as a proxy (i.e. that person still doesn't show up in the Fade unless they enter it physically, it's the spirit that show up as them). I've been wondering about that because in DA2 Anders's friend revert into the tranquil state when Vengeance subdue. That would also explain why Lucius says Seekers are abominations: the spirit needs to stay in them/connected all the time. ----- Then I went deeper into the rabbit hole on a totally different direction, because I read the DAI Rite of Tranquility codex and others after that. Short version of my crazy theory (#2): - The first "Templar" was an attempt at recreating a Sha-Brytol (Revered Defenders who drink Lyrium) - The first "Seeker" (Rite of tranquility) was an attempt at recreating a Titan Pure with a sleeping Titan instead of an awake one (both have to be pure to get chosen, I remember someone theorizing that Faith spirits are the Titans sleeping) It created people without as much of a link to the Titan compared to the originals, but they still have some type of connections which grant them their abilities to reinforce reality.
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Post by fluffysmom on Jun 18, 2021 1:13:04 GMT
Would the dwarves have had slaves at any point? When Cory is released by Hawke he asks if they’re citizens of the empire or slaves to the dwarves. It seems an odd thing to ask unless he’s aware of them having some during his time. I don’t know why I never considered that a possibility.
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