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Post by pessimistpanda on Jun 18, 2021 3:24:28 GMT
Would the dwarves have had slaves at any point? When Cory is released by Hawke he asks if they’re citizens of the empire or slaves to the dwarves. It seems an odd thing to ask unless he’s aware of them having some during his time. I don’t know why I never considered that a possibility. I'd say it's very likely that the Dwarves did take slaves, in Corypheus' time. Why wouldn't they? Slavery was widespread across all of Thedas at that point, and it's not as if dwarven society is some bastion of morality and equality *now*. Not to mention, if there are dwarves living and doing successful business in Tevinter in the current day (and we know that there are), then they probably have slaves, just like their non-dwarf competitors. They wouldn't deny themselves a financial edge that everyone else is using, and, frankly, most business owners wouldn't pay their workers if they didn't have to.
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Post by gervaise21 on Jun 18, 2021 8:20:26 GMT
Would the dwarves have had slaves at any point? As Panda says, there is no reason why the dwarves wouldn't have had slaves at that time as the predominant civilisation they had an alliance with had slaves and you would think they would not have done so if they had moral objections to the practice. What is more interesting to consider is whether they only started keeping slaves as an economic factor of dealing with Tevinter or whether they were already keeping slaves themselves before Tevinter made contact. If the latter then they must have been human slaves because they do not seem to regard the casteless as having even the status of slaves, although that could have changed since ancient times, and the elves were only enslaved en mass after the alliance of the Imperium with the dwarves. Nevertheless, since Cory asks this of Hawke, who is always human, it does seem as though he associates keeping human slaves with the dwarves, although by his time elves were the majority of slaves in the Imperium. Corypheus, of course, does seem to have been based in the south rather than Minrathous, so closer to barbarian lands, as was Orzammar, and thus human slaves would likely be more common.
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Post by fluffysmom on Jun 18, 2021 9:38:54 GMT
It makes sense of course now that I think about it but I guess with Orzammar being our only source of dwarven civilization at this point, it’s just hard to picture humans added to the mix. I know that was a thousand years ago or more and so much has changed for them since then but the concept just never crossed my mind. I’m beginning to realize how little attention I’ve been paying to what’s being said in-game. lol
On a different topic: Seekers of Truth are resistant to red lyrium, in theory because they were momentarily tranquil/touched by a spirit of faith. Why would that have any bearing on the blight at all?
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Post by Absafraginlootly on Jun 18, 2021 14:38:37 GMT
Perhaps it's not the blight part they're resistant too, but the lyrium part of red lyrium. Seekers don't use lyrium for their abilities right? They get them after their meditations draw a spirit to their mind (Does this make their dispelling of magic more like Mages than Templars, or a third category?). And I don't think it's ever been said they're resistant to normal spread of the taint, just red lyrium.
Perhaps the same process of connecting to a spirit of faith that gives them their abilities also makes them resistant to lyrium. If a Templar can push away magic by trying to connect to something else through lyrium, can a seeker push away the powers of lyrium/titans by trying to connect to the fade through the faith spirit?
Would you be better off fighting dwarves like Valta with seekers and spirit warriors than Templars?
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Post by xerrai on Jun 18, 2021 16:06:17 GMT
Perhaps it's not the blight part they're resistant too, but the lyrium part of red lyrium. Seekers don't use lyrium for their abilities right? They get them after their meditations draw a spirit to their mind (Does this make their dispelling of magic more like Mages than Templars, or a third category?). And I don't think it's ever been said they're resistant to normal spread of the taint, just red lyrium. [...] I don't know...I mean, yes, I think lyrium can potentially affect the rate of taint spread. I doubt the Titan depicted in Decent would still be around as an uncorrupted entity if this wasn't the case. But I think the spirit angle is more promising when it comes to modern races. Although that's mainly because of Anders/Justice. When asked about how his merge with Justice can affect Anders's potential Calling, they said this on the potential effects: "One is that the spirit within Anders can affect the level of his corruption, so it may delay or remove the necessity for his Calling altogether. Either that or at some point the corruption within Anders is going to corrupt the spirit." If this remains true, this is basically a confirmation that the presence of a spirit within a body can affect the rate of blight corruption. But it's no guarantee. The wording makes it slightly ambiguous, but the later part of the quote can imply that the corruption will either override the spirit's resistance and corrupt it, or it will use Anders's body as a conduit to corrupt the spirit. I'm inclined to believe the former interpretation. It is also important to note that when he says "corruption" he may not be referring to blight sickness itself, but just the corruption of a spirit turning into a demon due to overwhelming negative emotions. It's not entirely clear just how connected Seekers are to faith spirits. If they just have a 'spark' of one, if they are actively connected to a faith spirit in the fade, or if Seekers generate thier own faith spirit for themselves, etc. But I bet even a tenuous connection is enough to give them a certain amount of taint resistance. Whatever is going on with lyrium is only compounded on top of that.
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Post by gervaise21 on Jun 18, 2021 21:19:10 GMT
The wording makes it slightly ambiguous, but the later part of the quote can imply that the corruption will either override the spirit's resistance and corrupt it, or it will use Anders's body as a conduit to corrupt the spirit. I'm inclined to believe the former interpretation. It is also important to note that when he says "corruption" he may not be referring to blight sickness itself, but just the corruption of a spirit turning into a demon due to overwhelming negative emotions. The thing is it was implied both in what Anders believed and in the description of his specialism that Justice had already been corrupted into vengeance. Whilst I would dispute this interpretation because there are other signs that Justice was still functioning as justice, that is what the writer wanted us to believe based off the fact that they thought rivalry was a better relationship for Anders than friendship. Mind you, DG did seem to contradict this by saying that if you killed Anders, he was definitely dead and we would not be seeing him again, but Justice was a different matter. Anders also seemed to think this would be the case. So nothing was consistent in the writing about Anders' relationship with Justice. Nevertheless, if Justice was already corrupted by Anders' negative emotions, clearly it was not possible for the taint to corrupt the spirit further in the ordinary way. Thus it would seem we can only understand from this that the corruption of the spirit referred to its ability to keep the taint at bay.
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Post by bierkrug on Jun 23, 2021 15:42:28 GMT
Mind you, DG did seem to contradict this by saying that if you killed Anders, he was definitely dead and we would not be seeing him again, but Justice was a different matter. Technically, does that mean that Anders is functionally not a quantum character? When he reappears they could just say that Justice adopted Anders' form and personality (like Cole).
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Post by gervaise21 on Jun 23, 2021 16:27:08 GMT
Technically, does that mean that Anders is functionally not a quantum character? When he reappears they could just say that Justice adopted Anders' form and personality (like Cole). If they wanted to bring Anders back then I assume that is what they would do. However, I think it more likely that if they wanted to bring Justice back he would be in an entirely different form. This is further complicated by the fact the in DAO and DA2 it was implied that a spirit could only continue in this world as a material being by possessing either the live body or dead corpse of an earthly inhabitant. Then both Cole and Imshael were tossed into the mix who were able to exist by adopting a form that looked like a person but in fact they were wholly spirit. Imshael in fact could do either, depending on how the mood took him, whilst Cole could, of course, be made more human and thus less spirit. From what we learned in Trespasser, it would seem that the Forbidden Ones, like Imshael, were adept at shedding form to enter the Fade or taking on another form if they wanted to leave it. This was, of course, in the days before the Veil when there was nothing to stop a spirit from crossing over, apart from the prohibition of an Evanuris who possibly enacted some form of magical warding that set off alarm bells if the banished ones strayed into their territory. The Dread Wolf also seems to have recruited a number of Fade spirits to his cause. Tevinter Nights mentions that spirits that looked like Valour or Justice attacked the participants in the ritual, pouring out of the Fade at Fen'Harel's command. Now the Mortalitasi insists that they were demons that simply looked like spirits of Justice and Valour but only on the basis that she claims these benign spirits would never have attacked them like they did. I would think it would rather depend on how those spirits viewed what they had just done, including blood magic sacrifice and attempted spirit binding, so I don't feel it was surprising at all. That being the case, if our Justice had been persuaded that Fen'Harel's cause was just, even if tricked into thinking this, then we could see him again in the ranks of the Dread Wolf. Conversely, if Justice thought Fen'Harel's plan of restoring the elves at the cost of everyone else was unjust, then we might well find him an ally once more.
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Mass Effect Andromeda, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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XBL Gamertag: Beerfish77
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Post by Beerfish on Jun 23, 2021 18:37:31 GMT
As a loyal supporter of the Chantry and the Templars here is what I want to be able to do in the next game.
- Make a deal with Tevinter, we will herd all of our useless dangerous apostates and mages over to you. With this extra fodder we will support you in kicking the heretical horned devil Quanri out of par vollen and send them back across the sea with their tails between their legs. (Two problems solved)
- As part of the above deal Tevinter must help us crush egg head Solas and his dastardly plans. I want to see that bald head on a pike in front of my strong hold.
- Re-write the ancient Grey Warden writs. No you can't just lie to people and recruit them and then kill them if they won't gobble dark spawn blood, that is right out.
- Have a few little chats with the annoying dalish, stay out of our way and behave (no more demon summoning you dumbasses, you can't handle it). If you don't smarten up then we will enlarge the alienages and the 'knee deep mud' and herd you all into them like a bunch of halla.
- Create a crack elite army, multi race and go down to explore these old thaigs, I want all of that ancient dwarven phat loot.
I think that is about it for now. I demand to be able to do all of the above, BioWere plz
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Post by pessimistpanda on Jun 24, 2021 3:29:54 GMT
Being "quantum" didn't stop BioWare from bringing Office Waifu Leliana back for every single installment of the series, multiple novels, her own speshul DLC, and probably like 50 other things I forgot.
Obviously BioWare can bring back anyone they want, there's no point pretending that they can't. The only reason not to is because they just don't want to.
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Post by Black Magic Ritual on Jul 21, 2021 0:07:36 GMT
Another crazy Andraste theory, I know you guys love these since I always bring her up. This is taking from the mage end slide at the end of Inquistion look familiar, another blonde blue-eyed mage, who looks every bit the part of how the chantry depicts Andraste (besides the magick heresy stuff) However, what I want to point out is the little bell that's on the first paintings head. Consider this info on Andraste from one of the WoT books. "she also was known to display strange behavior, such as becoming still for long moments in a trance-like state, after which she would report voices as if from a lost memory and talk of strange auras or the sound of bells. Later on, Andraste came to remember her sister's death as a matter of heresy, suggesting that her alchemist mother had been whispering of the Old Gods.[7]
Coincidence? Unless Ma Bell headbands have become the next fashion trend among mages recently, I think not. So the first painting is what Andraste must look like in the present day (or not, since she was supposedly a redhead.)
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Post by bloodmagereaver on Jul 21, 2021 2:17:26 GMT
Well... Another crazy Andraste theory, I know you guys love these since I always bring her up. This is taking from the mage end slide at the end of Inquistion look familiar, another blonde blue-eyed mage, who looks every bit the part of how the chantry depicts Andraste (besides the magick heresy stuff) However, what I want to point out is the little bell that's on the first paintings head. Consider this info on Andraste from one of the WoT books. "she also was known to display strange behavior, such as becoming still for long moments in a trance-like state, after which she would report voices as if from a lost memory and talk of strange auras or the sound of bells. Later on, Andraste came to remember her sister's death as a matter of heresy, suggesting that her alchemist mother had been whispering of the Old Gods.[7]
Coincidence? Unless Ma Bell headbands have become the next fashion trend among mages recently, I think not. So the first painting is what Andraste must look like in the present day (or not, since she was supposedly a redhead.) Andraste was a hedge mage, only mages can hear beings from the Fade unless the veil is ridiculously torn like Kirkwall but since she heard the Maker everywhere it is unlikely that she was a normal person. Case in point the Maker is probably real and some kind of spirit of creation that got corrupted by the thoughts of mortal beings it created. The taint is the Maker's corrupted residue which twists all living things. The Old Gods are the first seven spirits it created and which turned mortals against the Maker in the first place. Before being completely turned into the demon responsible for the taint, the Maker retreated to the depts of the Fade and sealed himself using the Old Gods as keystones to hold him dormant. This whole ordeal probably happened during the age of the Elves and the ordeal that corrupted the Maker was probably the Elves attacking the Titans under the guidance of the Old Gods. The genesis of Thedas started with the Maker creating the Old Gods and other spirits in the Fade, he then created the material realm along with the Titans. The Old Gods and the Titans then competed for the attention of the Maker with the first creating the Elves and the second creating the Dwarves. This competition eventually led to a war between the Elves and the Dwarves which resulted in Mythal slaying a Titan under the Old Gods's instructions an act which began the corruption of the Maker. The myth of Elgar'nan defeating the Sun is actually a fabricated story covering for the moment the Maker first showed signs of corruption, when the Maker momentarily became a demon after the Elven general slayed one too many Titans, the Maker nearly destroyed the world before Mythal struck a deal with the Maker to heal the world and seal himself. Mythal's deal was that the Evanuris would stop killing Titans and in exchange the Maker would spare the world from his wrath, the deal was sealed with the Old Gods becoming the Maker's seal and the war between Elves and Dwarves coming to an end. Over several thousand years the accounts were twisted on behest of the Evanuris so that the Maker and the Old Gods were completely erased to the point that Elgar'nan became credited with defeating the "Sun" and scorching the world rather than cowering in fear from the Maker's wrath and having his hide saved by Mythal. The orbs of destruction powering the Evanuris "divine status" were in fact harvested Titan cores which kept accumulating magical energy long after the titans died but since they could only be used once in every few millenia the "Elven Gods" were in fact just extremely powerful and experienced mages who could be overthrown by others whenever their orbs were recharging. Knowing this they became increasingly paranoid and power hungry as those dubbed now as the Forgotten Ones were in fact other extremely powerful mages looking to displace them. This came into a head when Ghilan'nan, an outsider of the Elven pantheon, slew a titan to harvest it's power and caused the Maker to unleash a horde of tainted monsters upon the world in retribution. Ghilan'nan helped kill the monsters and was inducted into the Elven pantheon as it's newest member after which they covered the Maker's involvement by inventing that Gilan'nan was the creator of the monsters. However, after defeating the "retribution" of the Maker the Evanuris grew more careless and daring over time. They started to believe that the Maker had grown weak under his seal and that punishment would no longer come in a way which they couldn't handle. Only Mythal and Solas knew they were wrong and tried to stop the others from bringing doom upon all the world. Ultimately their efforts were in vain, Mythal was betrayed and killed by the six Evanuris who rejected her deal with the Maker while Solas waged war on them in open rebellion. Solas knew he couldn't win against the might of the other six Evanuris combined so he made deals with the Forgotten Ones to bolster his war effort and gain time before they began slaying more titans and the Maker destroyed everyone. Keep in mind that even if the Forgotten Ones somehow won they would have began killing titans themselves so things would still go to hell. While the two factions engaged in war, Solas infused the corrupt essence of the Maker on a titan to create the Red Lyrium Idol, the fabled weapon of Dalish tale that Fen Harel used to trick the two sides of the conflict into pursuing before sealing them. The Red Lyrium Idol combined with the Old Gods's power resulted in the creation of the Veil which banished the Evanuris in a similar fashion to the Maker's seal and had the side effect of corrupting Arlathan, which we know as the Golden City, into the Black City which housed the taint of the Maker brought by the Red Lyrium Idol. With their capital gone, their magic crippled and their leaders sealed the Elven empire crumbled. Solas, too tired after performing the ritual went to sleep but placed his orb to charge a counter ritual he would use upon awakening. He wasn't counting two things however, one that the Maker created a new race called humans when Solas used his powers to create the Veil and two that the Old Gods resenting their imprisonment would turn said race against the elves. The Old Gods raised Tevinter preying on the ashes of the Elven empire while ultimately manipulating humanity to gain the Maker's power for themselves, they wanted control of the Fade through sealed Arlathan rather than being digged out of their prisons physically. They were fools and the seven magisters they tricked into breaching into the Black City were instantly corrupted by the taint and tossed back into the physical world as the first darkspawn. The Maker was awoken and his taint would consume the very Old Gods themselves as the corrupted creator twisted them into Archdemons to lay waste against the world. The Grey Wardens were the turning point in this story, with their crazy research on the taint with blood magic they managed to destroy the Archdemon Dumat and end the blight. The death of Dumat briefly purified a piece of the Maker's soul which found it's way to Andraste and taught her the Chant of Light. The Chant of Light affects the morals of every thinking being in Thedas and if enough people follow it then the Maker himself can be purified from it's demonic corruption and the taint will be gone from the world. Sadly, Andraste got betrayed before the chant could save the world and subsequent corruption of the Chantry by politics made her efforts moot. The Maker remained a demon bent on destroying the world with darkspawn and Thedas continued to slowly move into oblivion.
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Post by gervaise21 on Jul 21, 2021 8:06:23 GMT
So the first painting is what Andraste must look like in the present day (or not, since she was supposedly a redhead.) That picture of the College of Enchanters always struck me as strange. I assumed the central figure is meant to be Fiona, since you can't depose her as leader of the mages on the mage path, but it looks nothing like her and to be honest does look a bit vacant (although Vivienne might say that was appropriate). The headdress on the central figure and the mages to her left are also odd considering we never see anything like that in game. she also was known to display strange behavior, such as becoming still for long moments in a trance-like state, after which she would report voices as if from a lost memory and talk of strange auras or the sound of bells.I never knew what they were trying to suggest with this passage in WoT2. We learn from Jaws of Hakkon that the Avvar believe in reincarnation and that the person may recall bits of their former life through dreams and visions, so I assumed that possibly that is what was going on with Andraste. Since it was also linked to her recollection of the violent death of her half sister, that might suggest that it triggered the memory of some similarly violent event in her former life. Why the bells though? Correct me if I'm wrong but outside of this reference to Andraste I do not recall bells as having a significance anywhere in Thedas. They are not used in worship or for other ceremonial functions and there is no mention of them being associated with manifestations of spirits. So why did Andraste hear bells (imaginary or otherwise)? As for her being a redhead, I don't recall that being a proven fact about her either. I thought that only came about because of a theory that was suggested about Leliana being her descendant, plus red hair being common in that part of Thedas. Mind you, I don't think she was the blue eyed blond of Chantry iconography either. That was just a later idea that probably grew out of one artist's idea of her appearance that became popular and then traditional. Plus many of the depictions are meant to be of a transcended Andraste, glowing with the Maker's light. That said, the stained glass windows of Redcliffe's Chantry must date to a fairly early period because of the fact that Shartan is prominent among them, so must have been done before the Chantry's prohibition against his image. The image above Shartan's head is that of a red headed woman. However, Shartan is remembered by the elves as a warrior and the most memorable event was him saving her in the Battle of Valarian Fields and being given a famous sword. So this image of him in white robes and a holding a key, plus it being the central panel of the sequence at the head of the aisle, doesn't make much sense. The Dalish teach that Andraste saw him as an equal but (allegedly) the barbarian tribes had all but forgotten him until Drakon sent his scholars to write down the Dalish oral history. Yet apparently here in Ferelden, not that far from the Frostback Mountains and the ancient sect at Haven, they not only remembered Shartan but gave him central importance in the story of Andraste. It does rather confirm my belief that the Dalish version is the correct one and Andraste felt that like her Shartan had been called by the Maker to free his people from bondage, just as she had been called to free hers. Thus the cause that united them was freeing the slaves. "Take this my champion and free our people forever."
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Post by gervaise21 on Jul 21, 2021 8:54:42 GMT
He wasn't counting two things however, one that the Maker created a new race called humans when Solas used his powers to create the Veil and two that the Old Gods resenting their imprisonment would turn said race against the elves. Humans were around before the Veil. Dalish tales recall their arrival before they felt the Quickening; hence them associating it with human contact. There is a reference in the tale about Andruil that she was hunting humans. There was clear evidence in the ruins back in DAO that elves and humans had been cohabiting at one time. The Avvar legends also seem to recall the moment when the Veil cut off the realm of the gods (spirits) when it had previously been accessible. Plus the timeline in the Keep pushes the arrival of humans even further back than shown in World of Thedas, from a few hundred years to nearly a 1000 before the Veil. What the Veil did and the subsequent retreat of the majority of elves from contact with the outside world, was allow the human tribes to develop their own civilisation, religion and magical traditions. However, they also built many of their structures over elven ruins and scavenged magical items that they discovered there, either in tombs or hidden caches from the elven civil war. Hence the similarities between certain traditions that grew up among the humans with what had gone before. There is also the possibility that not all the elves went into retreat and those who had been in contact with the humans (possibly Fen'Harel supporters who had seen them as allies in the war against the Evanuris) stayed in circulation and even intermarried with them, passing on their knowledge and their magical genes entering the human population but no trace of it being apparent in their descendants. Also, considering the Avvar know their gods are merely spirits of varying degrees of power, it is hardly surprising that Old God worship grew up among the early Neromenian barbarians since it was normal for their Seers and Augurs to be in contact with spirits who then guided and protected them in return for fulfilling whatever requirements were demanded of them. DG said that they had originally worshiped the Maker, presumably not exclusively but among the rest of their gods. However, the Old Gods clearly had some sort of ancient feud with the Maker, probably because he had imprisoned them, so a condition of giving their aid was to renounce all contact with the Maker. As the power they could give in return was considerable, this was why Maker worship gradually fell out of favour until people forgot that he even existed. I am still not convinced that the Maker as the first cause of the universe is the same being as the "Maker" who made contact with Andraste. We will never know if the former does or does not exist but it wouldn't surprise me if we do discover the identity of the "Maker". I have always thought of the Maker as a powerful spirit. Nevertheless, in the oldest texts associated with Andraste's teaching she does not call him the Maker but the Wellspring of All and in the Descent they called the domain of the titan, the Wellspring, so it is possible that the Maker has a close association with the titans and maybe the ultimate titan, although if that was the case, why didn't he/she tell Andraste that. Until the Descent we had no idea the titans even existed. Incidentally, being the "bride" of a fade spirit was not unique to Andraste. Tyrdda Brightaxe was the consort of the Lady of the Skies and the first line of her saga says that she was a "spirit bride". So this was probably a common concept among the barbarians. It should be noted that Tyrdda was a mage and the Augurs of the Avvar are mages and their contact with the gods, so that points once again to the fact that Andraste would have been a mage. Thus Maferath was the secular leader of their people and Andraste the spiritual one, which was the traditional way for the barbarians to arrange things.
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Post by bloodmagereaver on Jul 21, 2021 13:47:12 GMT
Well... He wasn't counting two things however, one that the Maker created a new race called humans when Solas used his powers to create the Veil and two that the Old Gods resenting their imprisonment would turn said race against the elves. Humans were around before the Veil. Dalish tales recall their arrival before they felt the Quickening; hence them associating it with human contact. There is a reference in the tale about Andruil that she was hunting humans. There was clear evidence in the ruins back in DAO that elves and humans had been cohabiting at one time. The Avvar legends also seem to recall the moment when the Veil cut off the realm of the gods (spirits) when it had previously been accessible. Plus the timeline in the Keep pushes the arrival of humans even further back than shown in World of Thedas, from a few hundred years to nearly a 1000 before the Veil. What the Veil did and the subsequent retreat of the majority of elves from contact with the outside world, was allow the human tribes to develop their own civilisation, religion and magical traditions. However, they also built many of their structures over elven ruins and scavenged magical items that they discovered there, either in tombs or hidden caches from the elven civil war. Hence the similarities between certain traditions that grew up among the humans with what had gone before. There is also the possibility that not all the elves went into retreat and those who had been in contact with the humans (possibly Fen'Harel supporters who had seen them as allies in the war against the Evanuris) stayed in circulation and even intermarried with them, passing on their knowledge and their magical genes entering the human population but no trace of it being apparent in their descendants. Also, considering the Avvar know their gods are merely spirits of varying degrees of power, it is hardly surprising that Old God worship grew up among the early Neromenian barbarians since it was normal for their Seers and Augurs to be in contact with spirits who then guided and protected them in return for fulfilling whatever requirements were demanded of them. DG said that they had originally worshiped the Maker, presumably not exclusively but among the rest of their gods. However, the Old Gods clearly had some sort of ancient feud with the Maker, probably because he had imprisoned them, so a condition of giving their aid was to renounce all contact with the Maker. As the power they could give in return was considerable, this was why Maker worship gradually fell out of favour until people forgot that he even existed. I am still not convinced that the Maker as the first cause of the universe is the same being as the "Maker" who made contact with Andraste. We will never know if the former does or does not exist but it wouldn't surprise me if we do discover the identity of the "Maker". I have always thought of the Maker as a powerful spirit. Nevertheless, in the oldest texts associated with Andraste's teaching she does not call him the Maker but the Wellspring of All and in the Descent they called the domain of the titan, the Wellspring, so it is possible that the Maker has a close association with the titans and maybe the ultimate titan, although if that was the case, why didn't he/she tell Andraste that. Until the Descent we had no idea the titans even existed. Incidentally, being the "bride" of a fade spirit was not unique to Andraste. Tyrdda Brightaxe was the consort of the Lady of the Skies and the first line of her saga says that she was a "spirit bride". So this was probably a common concept among the barbarians. It should be noted that Tyrdda was a mage and the Augurs of the Avvar are mages and their contact with the gods, so that points once again to the fact that Andraste would have been a mage. Thus Maferath was the secular leader of their people and Andraste the spiritual one, which was the traditional way for the barbarians to arrange things. In my view, humans were created at a later date than elves and dwarves. I don't know about Andruil hunting them, I only know of her hunting the Forgotten Ones which were elves or spirits of some kind. What the cronology points to is that humans only began showing up in large numbers once the Veil was already there and if Cole is any indication they were once more spiritual beings which got trapped in the material side of the split. Changing subjects, I am inclined to believe the Maker is a Dragon deity like Sothis of Fire Emblem but far more powerful. The taint turns the Old Gods into dragons because the Maker gives them his image as punishment for trying to usurp him in the eyes on humanity. Like I said, the Maker was once a Spirit of Creation who shaped the foundations of Thedas but once it's beings began to think of evil and do atrocities the Maker got corrupted into a Demon of Destruction. Dragons were created by him in his image before his corruption and are resistant to the Taint because the Maker himself is. The Maker is the source of the Taint but also it's cure on the large scale if he ever shifts back from Demon to Spirit. On the small scale only advanced blood magic can cure the Taint.
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Post by gervaise21 on Jul 21, 2021 19:22:14 GMT
In my view, humans were created at a later date than elves and dwarves. The humans may well have come into existence later than the elves and dwarves but they were definitely around before the Veil. However, both Dalish lore and the codex connected with the constellation Peraquialis point to the first humans in Thedas having arrived from over the sea, so were not originally part of Thedas at all, if by that we simply mean the Continent we are familiar with. This is where it would be helpful to know where they came from. The first humans, the Neromenians came from across the sea and landed in Par Vollen. From there they spread to Seheron, whose own legends speak of their heroes "who learned at the feet of the elves", and the mainland, the latter quite possibly after the Veil (but see my comment above about the Avvar, who may of course have arrived from the opposite side of the Continent independently of the Neromenians). The Qunari later came from a similar direction to the Neromenians, we know there is a legend of a magical human civilisation called the Par Ladi on an island somewhere in the Boeric Ocean and of course we have now been introduced to a new faction called the Executors, who serve "those across the sea". This would appear to point to an origin for the humans that lies outside of the continent Thedas and independent of the titans, elves and dwarves that inhabited it before they arrived.
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Post by gervaise21 on Jul 21, 2021 19:35:30 GMT
What the cronology points to is that humans only began showing up in large numbers once the Veil was already there and if Cole is any indication they were once more spiritual beings which got trapped in the material side of the split. I'm pretty sure that if Cole was referring to anything it was the elves. There were strong indications in Trespasser that elves have a close relationship to spirits and during the time before the Veil these spirits could adopt a material form in order to be part of the world outside the Fade but equally shed that form at will if they wanted to escape into it. The modern elves are the descendants of the spirits who got trapped the wrong side of the Fade. As I point out in my post above, humans originally seem to have arrived from across the sea, initially probably only in small numbers, which may have helped them escape notice at first. They clearly did start having interactions with the elves before the Veil, as I have explained above and it would seem there was some difference of opinion among the elves over the wisdom of this. Once the Veil was up and the elves largely went into retreat, it is probably true this allowed humans to grow in numbers fairly rapidly because they were no longer in danger from their more magically gifted neighbours and no doubt more humans were encouraged to join them from wherever they originated. I'm pretty sure the reason why the lore speaks of humans becoming more magically adept after the Veil is that the Evanuris and their priesthood were no longer around to prevent intermarriage between elves and humans. The offspring of such unions always present as human but it wouldn't surprise me to learn that is how magic entered the bloodlines of the human race. Then as the timeline recounts it was these more magically gifted individuals that gradually assumed the leadership and control of the human tribes, in the north at least, until finally the Tevinter Imperium came into being.
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Post by bloodmagereaver on Jul 22, 2021 2:56:08 GMT
Well... What the cronology points to is that humans only began showing up in large numbers once the Veil was already there and if Cole is any indication they were once more spiritual beings which got trapped in the material side of the split. I'm pretty sure that if Cole was referring to anything it was the elves. There were strong indications in Trespasser that elves have a close relationship to spirits and during the time before the Veil these spirits could adopt a material form in order to be part of the world outside the Fade but equally shed that form at will if they wanted to escape into it. The modern elves are the descendants of the spirits who got trapped the wrong side of the Fade. As I point out in my post above, humans originally seem to have arrived from across the sea, initially probably only in small numbers, which may have helped them escape notice at first. They clearly did start having interactions with the elves before the Veil, as I have explained above and it would seem there was some difference of opinion among the elves over the wisdom of this. Once the Veil was up and the elves largely went into retreat, it is probably true this allowed humans to grow in numbers fairly rapidly because they were no longer in danger from their more magically gifted neighbours and no doubt more humans were encouraged to join them from wherever they originated. I'm pretty sure the reason why the lore speaks of humans becoming more magically adept after the Veil is that the Evanuris and their priesthood were no longer around to prevent intermarriage between elves and humans. The offspring of such unions always present as human but it wouldn't surprise me to learn that is how magic entered the bloodlines of the human race. Then as the timeline recounts it was these more magically gifted individuals that gradually assumed the leadership and control of the human tribes, in the north at least, until finally the Tevinter Imperium came into being. I don't think Elf blood is the source of human magic, humans of old would have been proud of their Elf parent and it's difficult to depict the Tevinter Imperium crushing elves as second class beings if Elf breeding could yield stronger magic was common knowledge. It would have been far more likely that elves ended up as nobles in Tevinter rather than slaves because humans would value intermarriage with them. I agree, however, that Elves had a part of their being more connected to the Fade akin to spirits which made them once immortal. Cole's existence as a near human entity is what implies that humans came to be in large numbers once a certain group of spirits got caught in the wrong side of the Veil. Prior to the Veil their existence was more unstable and spirit like and if Solas's dream of a Spirit driving them away from their homeland means anything it's because they really had no idea how they came to be. Interestingly humanity has the dominant genetics over elves and dwarves, this means that whichever way humanity came to be is also connected with these two races in their origins. My idea is that Elves were created by the Old Gods while Dwarves were created by the Titans and that humans are sort of a middle ground between the two races who were created by the one we call the Maker.
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Post by Absafraginlootly on Jul 22, 2021 3:34:19 GMT
The spirit compassion that now calls itself Cole copied his name, appearance ( and for awhile when he was confused about what he was in the book Asunder, the identity) of the human Mage Cole.
If the mage who was left in that cell and forgotten to starve to death had been an elf then Cole the spirit would presumably look like an elf.
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Post by Absafraginlootly on Jul 22, 2021 3:55:38 GMT
Like I wouldn't be surprised if all the races used to be spirits before they came to the physical world and acqiured physical form. Save the dwarves whom I suspect of having either been made by, or at the the same time as, the titans and having a symbiotic relationship with them.
I also think that Yavanna's statement about Dragons being "the blood of the world" is something thats gonna come back around.
I just don't think Cole looking human is indicative of all spirits becoming human when they become physical.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Jul 22, 2021 4:03:06 GMT
Well... I'm pretty sure that if Cole was referring to anything it was the elves. There were strong indications in Trespasser that elves have a close relationship to spirits and during the time before the Veil these spirits could adopt a material form in order to be part of the world outside the Fade but equally shed that form at will if they wanted to escape into it. The modern elves are the descendants of the spirits who got trapped the wrong side of the Fade. As I point out in my post above, humans originally seem to have arrived from across the sea, initially probably only in small numbers, which may have helped them escape notice at first. They clearly did start having interactions with the elves before the Veil, as I have explained above and it would seem there was some difference of opinion among the elves over the wisdom of this. Once the Veil was up and the elves largely went into retreat, it is probably true this allowed humans to grow in numbers fairly rapidly because they were no longer in danger from their more magically gifted neighbours and no doubt more humans were encouraged to join them from wherever they originated. I'm pretty sure the reason why the lore speaks of humans becoming more magically adept after the Veil is that the Evanuris and their priesthood were no longer around to prevent intermarriage between elves and humans. The offspring of such unions always present as human but it wouldn't surprise me to learn that is how magic entered the bloodlines of the human race. Then as the timeline recounts it was these more magically gifted individuals that gradually assumed the leadership and control of the human tribes, in the north at least, until finally the Tevinter Imperium came into being. I don't think Elf blood is the source of human magic, humans of old would have been proud of their Elf parent and it's difficult to depict the Tevinter Imperium crushing elves as second class beings if Elf breeding could yield stronger magic was common knowledge. It would have been far more likely that elves ended up as nobles in Tevinter rather than slaves because humans would value intermarriage with them. I agree, however, that Elves had a part of their being more connected to the Fade akin to spirits which made them once immortal. Cole's existence as a near human entity is what implies that humans came to be in large numbers once a certain group of spirits got caught in the wrong side of the Veil. Prior to the Veil their existence was more unstable and spirit like and if Solas's dream of a Spirit driving them away from their homeland means anything it's because they really had no idea how they came to be. Interestingly humanity has the dominant genetics over elves and dwarves, this means that whichever way humanity came to be is also connected with these two races in their origins. My idea is that Elves were created by the Old Gods while Dwarves were created by the Titans and that humans are sort of a middle ground between the two races who were created by the one we call the Maker. Bigotry isn't rational to begin with, so the notion that humans would want to integrate with elves for their sweet, sweet magic doesn't really follow. In our own history, the cultures of the middle east had advanced medical and scientific knowledge in the medieval period, compared to Christendom, but that didn't lead to any integration or even alliance of any kind. Also, seeing as how Thedas eschews basically every other scientific principle that governs our own reality, assuming that genes and genetics are even a thing at all in the setting is quite a leap.
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Post by gervaise21 on Jul 22, 2021 7:40:03 GMT
I don't think Elf blood is the source of human magic, humans of old would have been proud of their Elf parent and it's difficult to depict the Tevinter Imperium crushing elves as second class beings if Elf breeding could yield stronger magic was common knowledge. By the time the Imperium came into being it was some 1800 years since the elves went into retreat and the first generation of elf/human children. As I say, once those original parents died off, it is hardly surprising that their descendants forgot their elven origins. Instead they focused on the fact that they were descendants of the Dreamers. It has never made any sense to me that wholly human Dreamers would have appeared in ancient times immediately following the raising of the Veil when magic as a whole was being suppressed and the elves were suffering the consequences of this in losing their immortality and universal gift for magic. However, those elves who retained their magic and did not go into retreat would have had increased status among the inhabitants of that time, as would their magically gifted children. It would have been far more likely that elves ended up as nobles in Tevinter rather than slaves because humans would value intermarriage with them. As I've pointed out, the majority of elves did go into retreat cutting themselves off from all contact with the humans, so the number of elves still in contact would have been limited and likely not enough to sustain their population, particularly if not all of them were marrying other elves. However, think on this. When the Imperium started to expand and encroached on Arlathan Forest, the settlers were attacked by the awakened elves (pretty much like the Sentinels in the Arbor Wilds I should imagine). Yet Tevinter's initial response was not to retaliate but to send diplomatic envoys to try and negotiate a peaceful resolution and maybe even an alliance, just as they had done with the dwarves. The elven response to these peaceful overtures was to kill envoys and anyone else who subsequently came anywhere near the forest. Still the Imperium did nothing more that create a fortress on the edge of the forest to keep watch. This continued to be the situation for several decades until the citizens locally insisted on something being done and a new Archon decided he would respond. It always seemed odd to me that the most powerful and magical human nation was so reluctant to take action against their repeatedly aggressive neighbours. Could it be that somewhere in their archives there was a record of their previous encounters with the elves back when their ancestors first rose to power? Could it be that they knew that those foci that Dorian says he saw in pictures depicting that time did actually come from the elves? Could it be that they were aware their own empire was founded on elven magic? That would explain their reluctance to take up arms against them and their initial desire to form an alliance with people who embodied the source of their own magical power. Then when they finally took action, marched on the elves and besieged the city in the forest, the elves held out against the might of the Imperium for 6 years. It drained the Imperium's resources to such an extent it meant they were not able to adequately defend other parts of the Imperium where uprisings started to occur, so the Archon resorted to drastic action to end the stalemate. After which it is hardly surprising that the Imperium preferred to enslave their former enemies and ensure they could never be a threat to them again. Kal-Sharok took a similar view about dwarves who sheltered some of the refugees from Arlathan. Knowing what we now do about the relationship between the Evanuris and the dwarves, I do wonder if this action on the part of Kal-Sharok was not simply to preserve the alliance with Tevinter but because they also have some ancient memories that record the time they were slaves of the elves and so they never want them to rise to power again either. Actually it has occurred to me this could be a reason for involving Kal-Sharok next game in the hunt for Solas, not because they fear annihilation from dropping the Veil, because they may believe themselves able to survive it, but because it could herald a return of the Evanuris or at the very least a new elven empire and that is something that Kal-Sharok definitely don't want to happen because they do remember what it was like before.
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Post by bloodmagereaver on Jul 22, 2021 11:48:45 GMT
Well... I don't think Elf blood is the source of human magic, humans of old would have been proud of their Elf parent and it's difficult to depict the Tevinter Imperium crushing elves as second class beings if Elf breeding could yield stronger magic was common knowledge. By the time the Imperium came into being it was some 1800 years since the elves went into retreat and the first generation of elf/human children. As I say, once those original parents died off, it is hardly surprising that their descendants forgot their elven origins. Instead they focused on the fact that they were descendants of the Dreamers. It has never made any sense to me that wholly human Dreamers would have appeared in ancient times immediately following the raising of the Veil when magic as a whole was being suppressed and the elves were suffering the consequences of this in losing their immortality and universal gift for magic. However, those elves who retained their magic and did not go into retreat would have had increased status among the inhabitants of that time, as would their magically gifted children. It would have been far more likely that elves ended up as nobles in Tevinter rather than slaves because humans would value intermarriage with them. As I've pointed out, the majority of elves did go into retreat cutting themselves off from all contact with the humans, so the number of elves still in contact would have been limited and likely not enough to sustain their population, particularly if not all of them were marrying other elves. However, think on this. When the Imperium started to expand and encroached on Arlathan Forest, the settlers were attacked by the awakened elves (pretty much like the Sentinels in the Arbor Wilds I should imagine). Yet Tevinter's initial response was not to retaliate but to send diplomatic envoys to try and negotiate a peaceful resolution and maybe even an alliance, just as they had done with the dwarves. The elven response to these peaceful overtures was to kill envoys and anyone else who subsequently came anywhere near the forest. Still the Imperium did nothing more that create a fortress on the edge of the forest to keep watch. This continued to be the situation for several decades until the citizens locally insisted on something being done and a new Archon decided he would respond. It always seemed odd to me that the most powerful and magical human nation was so reluctant to take action against their repeatedly aggressive neighbours. Could it be that somewhere in their archives there was a record of their previous encounters with the elves back when their ancestors first rose to power? Could it be that they knew that those foci that Dorian says he saw in pictures depicting that time did actually come from the elves? Could it be that they were aware their own empire was founded on elven magic? That would explain their reluctance to take up arms against them and their initial desire to form an alliance with people who embodied the source of their own magical power. Then when they finally took action, marched on the elves and besieged the city in the forest, the elves held out against the might of the Imperium for 6 years. It drained the Imperium's resources to such an extent it meant they were not able to adequately defend other parts of the Imperium where uprisings started to occur, so the Archon resorted to drastic action to end the stalemate. After which it is hardly surprising that the Imperium preferred to enslave their former enemies and ensure they could never be a threat to them again. Kal-Sharok took a similar view about dwarves who sheltered some of the refugees from Arlathan. Knowing what we now do about the relationship between the Evanuris and the dwarves, I do wonder if this action on the part of Kal-Sharok was not simply to preserve the alliance with Tevinter but because they also have some ancient memories that record the time they were slaves of the elves and so they never want them to rise to power again either. Actually it has occurred to me this could be a reason for involving Kal-Sharok next game in the hunt for Solas, not because they fear annihilation from dropping the Veil, because they may believe themselves able to survive it, but because it could herald a return of the Evanuris or at the very least a new elven empire and that is something that Kal-Sharok definitely don't want to happen because they do remember what it was like before. I concede, it's possible we got the Shartan situation were positive stuff got erased and maybe the Neromenian founders were Fenryels and the like but humans having magic of their own is also possible because not every mage is a descendant of the Neromenian founders and magic manifests randomly not just by blood. It's just too difficult to depicture every barbarian tribe of Thedas having an Elf ancestor as they moved inwards the countinent in the millenia before Tevinter came to be. We would likely have seen elves living amongst the Avvars and other human tribes because they wouldn't willingly breed themselves with humans to their own extinction and humans would also worship the Elven pantheon if their cultures interwined heavily along the way. I don't think Elf blood is the source of magic but you maybe right that it does increase it's potency on the short term of interracial marriages.
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Post by gervaise21 on Jul 22, 2021 17:21:39 GMT
not every mage is a descendant of the Neromenian founders and magic manifests randomly not just by blood. Until we know the origins of the humans we can't say this for certain. However, the Altus do have a fixation with breeding for magic and whilst this isn't always successful, as evidenced by Felix and his negligible, though not non existent, skills or Drakon's father, it would seem that it must have been successful enough they stuck with it down the years. As for the magic showing up randomly, with Tevinter having once conquered much of Thedas and having links to families in many unexpected places (Dorian being related to Trevelyan for example), maybe it isn't quite as random as people would have us believe. maybe the Neromenian founders were Fenryels Well he is a case in point. An elf mother crossed with a non-mage father resulting in an extremely powerful Dreamer, when pure bloodied elf mages are on the decrease in the clans. Maybe the writers did put him in the story for a reason beyond simply getting Hawke to rescue him from the Fade.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jul 22, 2021 17:58:23 GMT
So now people are saying mages and possibly humans are because of ancient elves too?
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