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Post by gervaise21 on Nov 13, 2021 8:12:04 GMT
but it gives us knowledge and gives us advice throughout the game including, apparently, the knowledge to turn into a dragon if one were to have the ability... Strange that the ability to turn into a dragon is only given to Morrigan. Surely a mage Inquisitor should also have been able to do this with the requisite knowledge but apparently it was not forthcoming. Instead we had to tame a dragon. How much advice does it actually give us? To my mind it is very limited: They confirm Flemeth is telling the truth about being Mythal. They tell us how to kill Corypheus. Except that in the end we don't actually kill him but send him into the Fade, which oddly enough we had been trying to stop him doing throughout the game. This is confirmed in WoT2, where apparently mages checked out the Fade to see what became of him and concluded that as he was nowhere to be found, he perished because he entered the Fade demoralised and full of doubt and it had been written (by whom it doesn't say) that "nothing which knows doubt can survive the Fade". We do this whether we drank or not, so it has nothing to do with any information given by the Well. They allow us to read some ancient elven texts. They allow us the password to Fen'Harel's sanctuary. This doesn't require any real understanding; simply repeat parrot fashion what they place in your head. That is the sum total of knowledge we personally acquire from the Well. I can't speak for Morrigan because she only tells us as much as she feels she needs to and in any case she is a special case because of her relationship to Flemeth and thus Mythal. OGB Kieran calls her the inheritor, so clearly Flemeth/Mythal did intend to pass something onto her, most likely what was sent into the eluvian. What the spirits don't tell us: Solas is Fen'Harel or at least an ancient elf (Abelas certainly recognised him as such) Solas created the Veil (even if they don't know he did specifically, they know there was a time when there wasn't one). Fen'Harel and Mythal were allies (before the password incident) and what they were doing in the Deep Roads. Who killed Mythal? (it is possible they don't know but Solas seemed adamant it was the other gods). Abelas says it was murder, so not an accident. Anything about the Titans apart from translating that ancient codex (you can have drunk from the Well before the Descent). In fact a whole host of information that could have been helpful but apparently wasn't forthcoming. Surely when confronted by something new and elven/ancient, the automatic thing would have been for the Inquisitor to have thought "what do you know about this?" Yet the spirits are mute. So even if it is just a library of knowledge, clearly there is a knack to accessing it and it seems to me the spirits can deny you access if they wish, or possibly like Solas and Morrigan, only tell you on a need to know basis and they are the ones who determine if you need to know. Best of all, when Solas tells us his plan, surely the thought uppermost in our mind would be "How do I stop him?" The Well doesn't seem to have helped much with that.
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Post by gervaise21 on Nov 13, 2021 8:44:01 GMT
nd then the Inquisitor acts to work with those forces, clear their name, and close the initial rift point thus delaying the Breach even if by a littile. You are not given any choice in this and the reason they allow you the time is because of the doubt over whether you have been sent by Andraste and subsequently because of your rift closing ability.[ the Inquisitor then prevents Envy from taking their shape, assuming control of the Inquisition at that point in time, and then makes an in the moment decision on what to do with the Templars. This does show strength of mind but not all Inquisitors do this. Besides why should resisting one Envy demon impress the priesthood of an ancient goddess enough to slavishly follow your order? They then *miraculiously* survive that ordeal and return to the Inquisition and get crowned Inquisitor because of their actions. As I said, it is this whole business that makes you seem the right candidate to lead the Inquisition, even if the Inquisitor is deep down just a coward. Again, I don't recall being given any choice in the matter over being the distraction, merely over how you accept that role. I seem to recall that in the confrontation with Corypheus you can just opt to offer him the mark so he will leave you alone. Very noble, leadership qualities (sarcasm). In the Hinterlands, helping out the refugees Again, you can opt out of doing this. Of course, most people won't because it is obvious it is an easy way to pick up points to progress to the next stage of the game but it is something you can ignore. Just as you can side with the noble against the refugees in the War Table mission. being the public face which helped meet the Templars and Mages. Was that really the case? I thought our enemies wanted us to come into their trap. As for Fiona, I would imagine being the person with the mark was what attracted her notice because that is why anyone notices you initially. Word gets around; you could be the Herald of Andraste. Nothing about you personally as an individual opens doors but that mark and the backing of the Divine's former right and left hands. Also Josephine's considerable diplomacy skills. Being the ambassador which met with the Iron Bull and recruited him and Blackwall into the organization. Again, you don't have to do either of these. Besides you were hardly an ambassador. The Iron Bull was leader of a mercenary band who just wanted an intro to get his group employed, and get him on the inside on behalf of the Qun. If you sacrifice the Chargers for the sake of the alliance with the Qun, this does not reflect well on you, particularly if you romance Iron Bull, as the epilogue to Trespasser points out. To be honest, I always thought it laughable that the Inquisitor should have been surprised and shocked by that betrayal; what did they expect from a member of the Qun? I'm sure that really impressed the spirits of the priesthood (again sarcasm). The Inquisitor can be played in a variety of different ways, so it is not possible to state categorically on the basis of certain play throughs that they have the requisite strength of will to control a collective of ancient spirits. They are more than just a collection of knowledge. We can state that when we explain the geas and Cole confirms it when he says "you don't want all those voices in your head". So going forward, if they do make the Well decision relevant to the plot, I doubt it would be in a good way but I suppose it is possible that it will give them valuable knowledge to pass on to the new PC on how to deal with Solas, except they could have done that already.
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Post by gervaise21 on Nov 13, 2021 8:56:53 GMT
I doubt Mythal’s will will come into play anymore, considering Solas murdered her. He didn't kill Mythal but her host, Flemeth. Flemythal had an Horcrux to survive the Warden killing her in DAO and she sent something through the Eluvian before Solas killed her. She's not done, she just might not look like Flemeth anymore. This seems likely and the most obvious candidate to come back with Mythal onboard is Morrigan but she could easily have found another host. As I explained in one of my posts above, what Flemeth put into the eluvian could be what ensures Morrigan can't be controlled by Solas, if she drank, and ensures that he can't control anyone else who drank either. That could be the simple way they explain and side-line the importance of the Well decision, assuming that Solas does have some aspect of Mythal within him. Alternatively, it could also be a way to use the Well against him.
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Post by colfoley on Nov 13, 2021 18:41:09 GMT
nd then the Inquisitor acts to work with those forces, clear their name, and close the initial rift point thus delaying the Breach even if by a littile. You are not given any choice in this and the reason they allow you the time is because of the doubt over whether you have been sent by Andraste and subsequently because of your rift closing ability.[ the Inquisitor then prevents Envy from taking their shape, assuming control of the Inquisition at that point in time, and then makes an in the moment decision on what to do with the Templars. This does show strength of mind but not all Inquisitors do this. Besides why should resisting one Envy demon impress the priesthood of an ancient goddess enough to slavishly follow your order? They then *miraculiously* survive that ordeal and return to the Inquisition and get crowned Inquisitor because of their actions. As I said, it is this whole business that makes you seem the right candidate to lead the Inquisition, even if the Inquisitor is deep down just a coward. Again, I don't recall being given any choice in the matter over being the distraction, merely over how you accept that role. I seem to recall that in the confrontation with Corypheus you can just opt to offer him the mark so he will leave you alone. Very noble, leadership qualities (sarcasm). In the Hinterlands, helping out the refugees Again, you can opt out of doing this. Of course, most people won't because it is obvious it is an easy way to pick up points to progress to the next stage of the game but it is something you can ignore. Just as you can side with the noble against the refugees in the War Table mission. being the public face which helped meet the Templars and Mages. Was that really the case? I thought our enemies wanted us to come into their trap. As for Fiona, I would imagine being the person with the mark was what attracted her notice because that is why anyone notices you initially. Word gets around; you could be the Herald of Andraste. Nothing about you personally as an individual opens doors but that mark and the backing of the Divine's former right and left hands. Also Josephine's considerable diplomacy skills. Being the ambassador which met with the Iron Bull and recruited him and Blackwall into the organization. Again, you don't have to do either of these. Besides you were hardly an ambassador. The Iron Bull was leader of a mercenary band who just wanted an intro to get his group employed, and get him on the inside on behalf of the Qun. If you sacrifice the Chargers for the sake of the alliance with the Qun, this does not reflect well on you, particularly if you romance Iron Bull, as the epilogue to Trespasser points out. To be honest, I always thought it laughable that the Inquisitor should have been surprised and shocked by that betrayal; what did they expect from a member of the Qun? I'm sure that really impressed the spirits of the priesthood (again sarcasm). The Inquisitor can be played in a variety of different ways, so it is not possible to state categorically on the basis of certain play throughs that they have the requisite strength of will to control a collective of ancient spirits. They are more than just a collection of knowledge. We can state that when we explain the geas and Cole confirms it when he says "you don't want all those voices in your head". So going forward, if they do make the Well decision relevant to the plot, I doubt it would be in a good way but I suppose it is possible that it will give them valuable knowledge to pass on to the new PC on how to deal with Solas, except they could have done that already. your argument is coming off as a huge double standard. It does not matter when you do something in universe because you don't have a choice and Its railroaded (keep in mind there wouldn't be a game if there wasn't) but also it does not matter if the Inquisitor can do things because they can opt out. It's an inherent contradiction. It can't be both. Also the point had nothing to do with what the Priesthood would be impressed by but demonstrating how the Inquisitor shows good leadership qualities in general which might make them powerful enough to command x group of Ancient Elves or spirits aligned with them.
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Post by Black Magic Ritual on Nov 13, 2021 19:10:28 GMT
I'm revisiting this tarot card again, but I do want to point something out I've noticed Now I definitely think Andraste if the figure in front, but I've noticed that Shartan is wearing a Trench Coat Just like this dude Coincidence? I'd also like to point out how similar his his magic rod is to Falon'din mosaic art piece Maybe it's me but I'm sure there's a connection between Falon'din/Shartan/Dirthamen. I mean, Dirthamen is supposed to be Falon'din Shadow and Shartan does sound similar to Shadow. I've also found this other neat tidbit from the DA wiki Hawke can find a book written by Shartan and gift it to Fenris. Hawke can also loot the sword Glandivalis that once belonged to Shartan from the pride demon Hybris. Interestingly, Hybris says that he has "fragments of every fool who held a throne, here or in the black."
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Post by xerrai on Nov 14, 2021 0:25:57 GMT
So given all this emphasis on cards is now a good time to mention that some people theorize that Solas is the "hidden storyteller" of DAI?
Epilogue aside (which are done by Morrigan), it seemed odd to some people that DAI lacked an early narrator. DAO had Duncan telling the story of the darkspawn and the creation of the wardens, and DA2 rather infamously had Varric who retold the story of Hawke's life. So why was there all of a sudden no means of recounting the story of the Inquisitor in DAI? One could just assume the writers had no need for an early narrator and that simple explanation is what I usually agree with. But I do think the theory below is interesting, none the less.
This theory thinks that maybe the story was, in fact, being told...but through art instead of words. Yes, some people believe that the tarot cards--the ones we use to select companions, difficulty, and review codex entries; are all part of the story being told. And its easy to why some people would this. The tarot cards themselves change depending on the choices of the Inquisitor and how it affects people, and these cards are quite notably drawn in an abstract art style. An art style that Solas is more than proficient in and was constantly shown using to show the "story of the Inquisition" by using the rotunda to reflect in-game choices.
Some people believe he's making those cards in the future, after every big event is said and done and he's left reminiscing. Others believe he is making this little card collection in real time, using the fade to get a general picture of each companion's life path and then painting an abstract piece on it regardless of how often the Inquisitor may or may not interact with him. And other theories still think it is not Solas at all, but is instead Morrigan since she is in the outro slides and can feasibly learn the elvhen fresco art style from her research given DAI telegraphed that she is an important figure who can come into play later.
Just an old theory that I thought worth mentioning.
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Post by gervaise21 on Nov 14, 2021 9:06:12 GMT
Just an old theory that I thought worth mentioning. I'd not seen that theory before. It is an interesting one and I suppose a lot would depend on when they came up with the tarot card idea. You see, I think originally Morrigan was meant to be the narrator. She was the narrator in the first ever trailer for DAI and then, of course, narrated the epilogue. It is possible that the reason this was altered is because the plot altered from that first trailer. In that trailer, the opening of the Veil looks far more widespread, as though it has been torn open from the other side (just as Solas says he planned to do), rather than just a localised hole blown in the Veil from the Waking World side and a general weakening leading to further localised rifts. The dragon looks to have emerged from the Fade. This occurs whilst Cassandra is in the middle of a battle. There is widespread darkness across the entire land and the "fires above" raining down on people below. Then Morrigan asks: "Will you stand against the darkness or lead this world to its bitter end?" To my mind, none of what was showcased there made it into the game we were given. However, it does look very like what could occur, at least in the short term, if Solas achieves his aim of removing the Veil. Originally, I assume that was meant to occur in DA3 but around half way through, after dealing with Corypheus, because he was never meant to be the main villain, which is why he was so underdeveloped as a character, whereas Solas, who was the real villain was given a great deal of character development, even before the decision to include him as a romance, but prior to that decision was going to be more obviously a shifty sort of character, more in keeping with his reputation among the Dalish. It is also possible that the tarot cards were introduced at an early stage and were meant to be part of an opposing narrative to that of Morrigan, if your theory about Solas being responsible for them is correct. It is interesting that in the Temple of Mythal, Solas and Morrigan are very much in direct opposition to one another. Could that be because they are opposing forces in the narrative? So Morrigan began the narrative in the trailer, challenging the player and questioning about what sort of leader they will be. Solas subsequently does this as well, when he says he is interested to see what sort of hero they will be. Clearly he is not only trying to control the narrative in his constant questioning of both the companions and the PC but then keeps a record of his progress in the rotunda. So it is perfectly conceivable that the tarot cards are an extension of this. Then in the epilogue, Morrigan takes back the narrative. Of course, if she is the true inheritor of Mythal's power or, at the very least, Flemeth's knowledge, then it could well be that she will now be the one who "nudges" people in the direction she wishes them to take but the important part is that she will be in direct opposition to the "Darkness", whether Solas is responsible for it or not, and will be working the preserve the world from destruction.
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Post by gervaise21 on Nov 14, 2021 9:19:12 GMT
Now I definitely think Andraste if the figure in front, but I've noticed that Shartan is wearing a Trench Coat I still doubt it is Andraste because of the dragons on the shield. Surely she would be carrying a shield with the sun or something similar to represent the Maker? Also the three headed dragon does directly link to the iconography of Tevinter. Why would she be using heraldry directly associated with her enemies? So I do not believe the figure in the foreground is Andraste. However, that being the case, and if we discount that the figure in the background is Shartan as well, then it might well be a representation of Falon'Din. Alternatively, as I believe I have suggested before, it could be Mythal and Fen'Harel in the early days. A shield with dragons would be entirely appropriate for her and whatever Solas might like to maintain, it is clear he had acquired a somewhat dubious reputation when serving her, probably because he was her spymaster, hence him always being shown on her left, rather than her open protector, who would be on the right. Incidentally, the three headed dragon could be another hint to a link between Mythal and Razikale. I always imagined the three headed dragon only came about after the linking of the 3 kingdoms of Nerominian, Tevinter and Qarinus; hence the 3 heads. However, what if it had always been the symbol of Tevinter because it was associated with Razikale, the patron goddess of Tevinter? Seeing as the united kingdoms took the name Tevinter as opposed to one of the other two, it is possible that the iconography adopted was also largely that of Tevinter, although of course we do know that dragons were also important to the traditions of Neromenian and all the Old Gods were depicted as dragons by their faithful. Why are you so convinced it is meant to depict Andraste?
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Post by Black Magic Ritual on Nov 14, 2021 13:21:34 GMT
Now I definitely think Andraste if the figure in front, but I've noticed that Shartan is wearing a Trench Coat I still doubt it is Andraste because of the dragons on the shield. Surely she would be carrying a shield with the sun or something similar to represent the Maker? Also the three headed dragon does directly link to the iconography of Tevinter. Why would she be using heraldry directly associated with her enemies? So I do not believe the figure in the foreground is Andraste. However, that being the case, and if we discount that the figure in the background is Shartan as well, then it might well be a representation of Falon'Din. Alternatively, as I believe I have suggested before, it could be Mythal and Fen'Harel in the early days. A shield with dragons would be entirely appropriate for her and whatever Solas might like to maintain, it is clear he had acquired a somewhat dubious reputation when serving her, probably because he was her spymaster, hence him always being shown on her left, rather than her open protector, who would be on the right. Incidentally, the three headed dragon could be another hint to a link between Mythal and Razikale. I always imagined the three headed dragon only came about after the linking of the 3 kingdoms of Nerominian, Tevinter and Qarinus; hence the 3 heads. However, what if it had always been the symbol of Tevinter because it was associated with Razikale, the patron goddess of Tevinter? Seeing as the united kingdoms took the name Tevinter as opposed to one of the other two, it is possible that the iconography adopted was also largely that of Tevinter, although of course we do know that dragons were also important to the traditions of Neromenian and all the Old Gods were depicted as dragons by their faithful. Why are you so convinced it is meant to depict Andraste? Like I said before, the similarities between her and this depiction of Andraste in the glass stained window are too close to ignore. The three headed dragon thing could itself be a relic from the Avvars? I mean, I still think High Priestess of Razikale was an Avvar so that could've been a thing they brought to Tevinter with them.
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Post by gervaise21 on Nov 14, 2021 17:56:49 GMT
Like I said before, the similarities between her and this depiction of Andraste in the glass stained window are too close to ignore. The only real similarity is that both are wearing armour but Andraste wasn't the first warrior woman even among the Alamarri/Avvar, let alone further back in ancient times. However, that stained glass window has got me thinking about the other figure depicted. Is that meant to be the Maker? If so, why has he got a tree of life depicted on him, seemingly symbolic of him as the source of life, when Andraste allegedly called him the Wellspring, suggesting water rather than a tree. Except that the tree of life is very much an elven symbol or possibly once again, a Neromenian one, according to the codex Fervanis, and harks back to the time before they worshiped the Old Gods. Now if that was true, it was a time when they still worshiped the Maker (as confirmed by David Gaider) but as part of their animist religion, just like the barbarians of the south. So there do seem to be strong similarities in religion between the ancient pre-Old God Neromenians and the Alamarri, possibly confirming that they did both originate from the same group of humans. Also, if the Maker was originally worshiped as one of many in the animist pantheon, this would account for why initially many of the barbarian cults to the Maker after the death of Andraste, did not worship him exclusively but just one of many. So far as they were concerned she had just revived an ancient tradition and whilst they may have forgotten the Maker, they had not actually rejected him as a condition of getting the assistance of the Old Gods, as suggested by the Chant, because they never worshiped the Old Gods. That was purely the Neromenian descendants in the north of the Continent. Then along came Drakon, whose family originated in the north, with its emphasis on official state worship of state sanctioned deities and later its own particular cult to the Maker, as envisioned by Hessarian, and insisted that his cult to the Maker was the only authentic and acceptable one, killing or conquering (with enforced conversion to his cult) of anyone who differed with his vision. Then his Divine enshrined his ideas in the Chant, leaving out any alternative versions that did not agree with it.
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Post by garrusfan1 on Nov 17, 2021 20:08:00 GMT
but it gives us knowledge and gives us advice throughout the game including, apparently, the knowledge to turn into a dragon if one were to have the ability... Strange that the ability to turn into a dragon is only given to Morrigan. Surely a mage Inquisitor should also have been able to do this with the requisite knowledge but apparently it was not forthcoming. Instead we had to tame a dragon. How much advice does it actually give us? To my mind it is very limited: They confirm Flemeth is telling the truth about being Mythal. They tell us how to kill Corypheus. Except that in the end we don't actually kill him but send him into the Fade, which oddly enough we had been trying to stop him doing throughout the game. This is confirmed in WoT2, where apparently mages checked out the Fade to see what became of him and concluded that as he was nowhere to be found, he perished because he entered the Fade demoralised and full of doubt and it had been written (by whom it doesn't say) that "nothing which knows doubt can survive the Fade". We do this whether we drank or not, so it has nothing to do with any information given by the Well. They allow us to read some ancient elven texts. They allow us the password to Fen'Harel's sanctuary. This doesn't require any real understanding; simply repeat parrot fashion what they place in your head. That is the sum total of knowledge we personally acquire from the Well. I can't speak for Morrigan because she only tells us as much as she feels she needs to and in any case she is a special case because of her relationship to Flemeth and thus Mythal. OGB Kieran calls her the inheritor, so clearly Flemeth/Mythal did intend to pass something onto her, most likely what was sent into the eluvian. What the spirits don't tell us: Solas is Fen'Harel or at least an ancient elf (Abelas certainly recognised him as such) Solas created the Veil (even if they don't know he did specifically, they know there was a time when there wasn't one). Fen'Harel and Mythal were allies (before the password incident) and what they were doing in the Deep Roads. Who killed Mythal? (it is possible they don't know but Solas seemed adamant it was the other gods). Abelas says it was murder, so not an accident. Anything about the Titans apart from translating that ancient codex (you can have drunk from the Well before the Descent). In fact a whole host of information that could have been helpful but apparently wasn't forthcoming. Surely when confronted by something new and elven/ancient, the automatic thing would have been for the Inquisitor to have thought "what do you know about this?" Yet the spirits are mute. So even if it is just a library of knowledge, clearly there is a knack to accessing it and it seems to me the spirits can deny you access if they wish, or possibly like Solas and Morrigan, only tell you on a need to know basis and they are the ones who determine if you need to know. Best of all, when Solas tells us his plan, surely the thought uppermost in our mind would be "How do I stop him?" The Well doesn't seem to have helped much with that. I might be wrong but didn't the inquistor send corypheus through in pieces? I imagine having your body arrive in several different places at once would be fatal to anyone. Why they would risk sending him into the fade in any way, shape, or form is beyond me.
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Post by gervaise21 on Nov 17, 2021 21:39:29 GMT
I might be wrong but didn't the inquistor send corypheus through in pieces? I imagine having your body arrive in several different places at once would be fatal to anyone. Why they would risk sending him into the fade in any way, shape, or form is beyond me. That's what I thought we had done at the time; we opened a rift inside him which would have blown him apart, which would be pretty terminal. However, we did say that we were sending him to the Fade and then that is what they say happened to him in WoT2, which came as something of a surprise to me too. I thought we were just being ironic. You want into the Fade? I'll open a rift inside you. As you say, just sending him into the Fade didn't make any sense unless he was dead on arrival and even then it might have been a bit risky. Also, if all you need to survive the Fade is a bit of self-confidence, does that mean Hawke is still alive and running around in there somewhere? Mind you World of Thedas, particularly volume 2, has some very dodgy entries that contradict not only what we had previously been told in game but in some instances even other entries within the same tome. So, I'd be inclined to ignore what was said in WoT2 and stick to the evidence of my own eyes in game.
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Post by colfoley on Nov 18, 2021 0:26:56 GMT
Here's a thought that whatever happened to him really did make him immortal but how we killed him was like how one 'kills' a spirit. Something new will form just not quite like what had existed before.
On maybe a more meta note I think its safe to say though from whatever happened to Corypheus did essentially defang him and leave him...neutralized...whatever else he may be up to. But in the end maybe they didn't want to fully close the door on him and give us the possibility that they could bring him back, leave themselves a small out within the lore which could become relevant if ever needed.
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Post by gervaise21 on Nov 18, 2021 8:17:40 GMT
But in the end maybe they didn't want to fully close the door on him and give us the possibility that they could bring him back, leave themselves a small out within the lore which could become relevant if ever needed. Quite possibly, although they do have the Architect and five other possibilities of ancient darkspawn Magister they could use instead. It just made the whole business of killing the dragon seem a bit pointless if we weren't intending on actually killing him and thus removing his threat permanently. Also, the explanation he perished because he was demoralised. How about "being a creature of the Darkness he didn't belong in the Fade"? Back in DAO they said that even the demons avoided the Black City, so clearly there is something about it that even the most powerful denizens of the Fade are afraid of. Flemeth said that her rescue mission for the Old God soul was saving it from being lost to the darkness, which suggests it would have gone somewhere other than the Fade. Corypheus says they "discovered the darkness" in the Black City, so it clearly is separate from the Fade, possibly why it stays at a fixed point as is not altered by it. Technically, Corypheus was trying to return to the Black City, not the Fade generally, although maybe he hoped to gain entry to the Black City from the Fade but that doesn't mean he would have been correct about that. When we were running around the Fade, the Black City was still inaccessible. This is why it required that specific ritual to take the Magisters there rather than anywhere else in the Fade.
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Post by Black Magic Ritual on Mar 20, 2022 14:04:23 GMT
I've been recently revisiting the cut content from DAO, and I've always been fascinated by the lost Avvar origin and urn storyline. This is speculation on the development on my part, but taken from Gaider's post about it o the old Bioware forums web.archive.org/web/20151105102944/http://forum.bioware.com/topic/85228-lore-question-the-old-fereldan-tribes/?bioware=1And from his Tumblr blog [/b][/quote] I'm not sure why, but I think whoever the bad guy chieftain in this origin was he might have utilised a blood magic ritual to wipe out the Avvar tribe quickly and efficiently. It reminds me of the Aeonar purge where there was a sole survivor after Andraste's "death" when the Avvars raided it. Could there be a connection?
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Post by gervaise21 on Mar 20, 2022 19:00:18 GMT
I'm not sure why, but I think whoever the bad guy chieftain in this origin was he might have utilised a blood magic ritual to wipe out the Avvar tribe quickly and efficiently. It reminds me of the Aeonar purge where there was a sole survivor after Andraste's "death" when the Avvars raided it. Could there be a connection? It's hard to say but it is possible some of the original plot for the Avvar origin and the associated later quest was resurrected in Jaws of Hakkon. There was the chief of the Hakkonites that we had to deal with, some strange ritual that he used to connect with Hakkon and of course the dragon itself. If the original plot was connected to the Urn of Sacred Ashes and we had to deal with Avvar rather than Andrastrian cultists in order to recover it, then the fact that there is a dragon involved in both plots does suggest a connection. As for the blood magic ritual, there is that whole business with the priesthood of Razikale and how they came south to try and make contact with their silent goddess, which we have previously speculated about. It was an Avvar who helped direct them to a place where the Veil was thinnest and it was easier to make contact. Of course, the Reaver spec, which the cultist leader can teach us in DAO, does seem to be a form of blood magic that a warrior can learn, so it would have been interesting if it had actually been taught by an Avvar.
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Post by dadithinkimgay on Apr 5, 2022 6:37:39 GMT
I want to bring the discussion Solas and his plan/means in the upcoming game here as I have further thoughts, particularly about the Dread Wolf/Dragon Hybrid So let's say the Wolf/Dragon hybrid is a representation of Fade Solas AKA his mind, in the upcoming game. TDW has reptilian characteristics as described in Dread Wolf Take You. And the recent Dev shirt posted in the twitter thread shows a half feline, half dragon wolf. Since he absorbed Mythal, one would assume the reptilian side of the creature comes from Mythal, and of course Solas is the feline side. So Mythal is apart of his mind. I can't say for certain if Solas is somehow subduing her control on him or what their connection is. But they're together now. Solas is her host. Which I find really interesting because it all seemed to start with Solas and Mythal, and now it's ending with Solas and Mythal. Hell The Red Lyrium Idol allegedly depicts Solas and Mythal (and someone else.) Their relationship has been emphasized since The Masked Empire when Felassan couldn't even mention her name before Solas silenced her. So we all know they have a story but it truly makes me wonder just how significant it will be. And I bet it will be really heartbreaking
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Post by gervaise21 on Apr 5, 2022 8:49:59 GMT
I've brought his over from the Schmooples Thread: I also hope they don't pay too much attention to the addition of Mythal to his psyche. It can't be used as a total excuse for his actions because he was already planning on tearing down the Veil before he absorbed Mythal. He also took his original act of defiance and revenge against the Evanuris because of her death. Likewise, his adoption of the moniker Fen'Harel even appears to have been whilst working with her, if the wolf statues in the Deep Roads and at her temple are anything to go by, plus the fact that both her ancient priesthood and Flemeth refer to the Dread Wolf, not Solas or whatever other name he once had (according to Rasaan). I've also drawn attention to his self portrait from ancient times. The big black fearsome wolf was already something he identified with and used, for propaganda if nothing else. The Dread Wolf was also pretty ruthless with followers who don't follow his plan, as evidenced by his execution of Felassan, who fully expected that fate if he confronted the Dread Wolf in the Fade rather than continually avoided him.
I also hope they don't try to do another Anders/Justice type of scenario because the writer sent very mixed messages with that one, largely based on whether you followed the friendship or rivalry path, but also in what Anders also claims. He was adamant when we first discuss his possession with him that it was his anger and desire for revenge that twisted Justice into something different from his original outlook. Yet, particularly on the rivalry path, we are meant to believe that it was Justice overcoming Anders that led to his actions in Act 3. Even so, when we confront him at the end he claims it was done of his own free will. The trouble with Anders is that the writer was using him as a vehicle to work through her own prejudices and resentment about someone she had known with mental illness. Now I know, as someone who has suffered from paranoid delusions, that it can seem like possession by an external being but it really isn't and the whole thing is much more complex than such a simplistic explanation, so I really didn't appreciate the writer using Anders as a vehicle in that way.
If PW does the same thing with Solas then I shall be very disappointed but I don't see that happening if he stays true to his original writing. He admitted he used the romance to make Solas into a more sympathetic character because he was originally going to be much more obviously closer to his depiction by the Dalish. However, that doesn't mean that underlying aspect to his character wasn't already there. Felassan's numerous stories about him to Briala always seemed to emphasis his clever trickster aspect with a rather amoral outlook. Solas admitted himself that he doesn't see things so much in terms of good and evil but cause and effect. This is why it seems he can contemplate destroying a great many lives in order to save the few that he particularly cares about. This is nothing new.
So I tend to feel that the dragon/wolf hybrid is more symbolic of the fact that his power has grown due to absorbing Mythal rather than it significantly altering his outlook or character. For example, he has always cared about spirits and was willing to punish, even kill, people who abused them; now he has Mythal's power it seems he can do this to greater effect than he previously could from the Fade. It is also possible that he didn't have the ability to petrify with a thought before either. Solas and Mythal together are obviously stronger than either was on their own at this passage of time. The necessity for absorbing Mythal probably arose from his plan to deal with Evanuris and, for all we know, it may have always have been necessary to meet up with Flemeth before taking any further action with regard to the Veil; hence her admonishing him for messing up over his orb. So originally the plan would have been: Corypheus blows himself up unlocking the orb, Solas recovers it and then meets up with Flemeth, he absorbs Mythal and tears down the Veil; the united Fen'Harel/Mythal deal with the Evanuris. The first bit went haywire and then the orb was destroyed so he has to find an alternative means of conducting his ritual (the idol) but before he seeks this out, he checks in with Flemeth and takes Mythal on board so at least he will be ready for the Evanuris when the ritual completes.
I think the reference to Rasaan looking for his true name may become significant to the plot in DA4. May be using his true name will remind him of the elf he was originally and enable him to reject his adopted persona of the Dread Wolf. Something like that.
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Post by gervaise21 on Apr 5, 2022 9:27:18 GMT
Their relationship has been emphasized since The Masked Empire when Felassan couldn't even mention her name before Solas silenced her. I don't think he was going to mention Mythal per se but was going to say that Briala reminded him of Fen'Harel himself. Now it can be argued that there are parallels between Mythal/Solas and Celene/Briala but that doesn't necessarily mean romantic ones. Briala was working with Celene to achieve better conditions for her people, the elves. That was why Felassan advised her to return after she had killed Lady Mantillon because she could do more good for them as Celene's spymaster than among the Dalish. Fen'Harel was working with Mythal but we don't know exactly in what capacity. However, I do think that spymaster would account for why he already had a dubious reputation before his rebellion. Also, he is shown on Mythal's left, which would seem to be the position traditionally assigned to the covert protector as opposed to the openly acknowledged bodyguard. Being an expert with the Fade and having a good relationship with the spirits there would also lend itself to a spymaster. This might well have brought him into conflict with Falon'Din/Dirthamen, who considered the Fade and its secrets their domain. What might be interesting to consider is whether or not Fen'Harel started his rebellion before Mythal's death and whether or not he did it with her approval. Could he have abandoned her, as Briala did Celene, over something he discovered that Mythal had kept from him? That horror he discovered in the Deep Roads perhaps? Then did he feel responsible for her death because he hadn't been there to watch her back? It is difficult to get to the truth about their relationship. Her murder had to have been pretty near the time of raising the Veil or I think it would have found its way into Dalish lore, with may be Fen'Harel even being blamed for it. Instead, it would seem that no one outside of Mythal's own priesthood was aware of her death but they assert Fen'Harel's innocence. If the rebellion had only started in response to her death, there doesn't seem enough time for the sanctuary to have been established before the Veil went up. It could well be that Mythal's followers joined the rebellion after her death, which is how the knew the password but, if that was not the case, it would suggest that she was colluding with it. That could have been a reason for the other Evanuris killing her, except Solas maintains it was due to their lust for power, which suggests something else was involved, for example she was preventing them accessing something they wanted. Or may be they just got fed up with her interfering in their affairs. Yet, the story about Andruil suggest she only interfered because the other gods requested it and were fearful for their own safety and Solas says she only stopped Falon'Din when his actions threatened her own people (so apparently wasn't bothered about anyone else). She stepped in to prevent a conflict between Elgar'nan and Falon'Din escalating into all out war. Since Elgar'nan's champion was the victor, why would he have a problem with that? Why would any of the gods apart from Andruil and Falon'Din be resentful of her controlling their antics? Even if we assume that Ghilan'nain supported Andruil and Dirthamen supported Falon'Din, that still leaves Sylaise, June and Elgar'nan, plus Fen'Harel, you would think she could count on for support. Given she and Elgar'nan were the most powerful of the gods, you would think that would be sufficient to counter the other four. Yet Solas blames all the Evanuris for her death, so either he was misrepresenting the facts or something else was in play to make them all turn against her. I suppose covertly supporting a rebellion could make them see her as a traitor but why would she do this and why did Solas not admit this was the case? There is definitely something involved that he did not tell us and probably deliberately so.
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Post by ellehaym on Apr 5, 2022 15:38:02 GMT
With the exception of Sylaise, Ghilan'nain (unless she came up with the idea to promote her if she destroyed her creations) and June, Mythal has gotten involved in many of the Evanuris lives. She prevented, Falon'Din from directly fighting Elgar'nan, Ordered the rest of the Evanuris to fight Falon'Din when he started invading her lands, fought Andruil and made her forget hot to get back to the Void, calmed Elgar'nans rage, maybe others that I forget. Perhaps Solas always had rebellious tendencies, but Mythal convinced him to not act on it ... until something happened.
I do think that Mythal did or was planning to support Solas rebelion, but somehow the Evanuris found out and decided to lure Mythal and murder her.
Why would Mythal support the rebellion? Maybe something happened that made her see things differently?
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Post by gervaise21 on Apr 5, 2022 18:03:54 GMT
Why would Mythal support the rebellion? Maybe something happened that made her see things differently? I think the most likely theory here is connected with the Horror of Hormack. Solas apparently discovered something in the Deep Roads that horrified him and made him realise that rebellion was the only answer. Those terrible pools would fit the bill. I've mentioned elsewhere that it is possible that Ghilan'nain may have set these up in secret, originally to create monsters for Andruil to hunt that we are told about in the Temple of Mythal. After she was ordered to destroy her original creations, it is possible she started a new project using elves as her subjects and she was able to keep this knowledge from Mythal, quite possibly with the assistance of Dirthamen, the god of secrets and his twin, Falon'Din. Andruil was also likely in on the secret as she was probably supplying elves from her own people. If the intent was to create an army of super warriors, that would fit with Solas' assertion that it was their lust for power that led to Mythal's death. So Solas reports to Mythal and perhaps she felt unable to act against all four combined, so she approved Fen'Harel's rebellion to increase the forces available to challenge the others. Dirthamen or Falon'Din (due to his connection with the Fade) got wind of her complicity in the rebellion and used it to persuade the other Evanuris that she had turned traitor, which meant all seven united against her. Without her spymaster Solas to warn her, the others succeeded in murdering her and he held all of them culpable for the deed. That would fit what we have been told up to now.
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Post by dadithinkimgay on Apr 7, 2022 19:26:11 GMT
So I tend to feel that the dragon/wolf hybrid is more symbolic of the fact that his power has grown due to absorbing Mythal rather than it significantly altering his outlook or character I'm hoping, as I said the possession may be completely different than how we know it now. Because Mythal certainly isn't just gone, and if she's not gone, she's either apart of Solas or is hiding in Solas or something. Perhaps Solas knows how to subdue a spirit's influence in order to use their power to his own means. I agree that I don't want to see another Anders/Justice situation but there are SO many parallels, even down to Solas becoming more "tortured" and "dark," as Anders did. But Solas and Mythal are both Gods so perhaps there's an answer there. I think the reference to Rasaan looking for his true name may become significant to the plot in DA4. May be using his true name will remind him of the elf he was originally and enable him to reject his adopted persona of the Dread Wolf. Something like that. I think so too. Perhaps his original name is attached to something in which we can summon him from, much like Mythal's altar. What might be interesting to consider is whether or not Fen'Harel started his rebellion before Mythal's death and whether or not he did it with her approval. I think they were both planning something, because as you said the timeline would make little sense. Unless The Evanuris were planning a decade-long ritual to end the world, I assume that Solas had to act rather quickly. What Mythal and Fen'Harel may have planned, who knows. But Mythal clearly had her own agenda beyond how Solas settled things. Or may be they just got fed up with her interfering in their affairs. That's what the stories seem to point toward. The in-fighting probably stopped them from being able to succeed in killing Mythal, but they all may have finally agreed in overthrowing Mythal's rule for some reason. Whatever power they wanted would have destroyed the world in their hands, and it seems to connect to The Golden City. But as far as everyone being culpable for Mythal's murder - I think there's something fishy with that too. I would argue that certain individuals wanted Mythal dead more than others. Andruil, Falon'Din, Ghili'nain, and Sylaise all seemed to have something against her. Dirthamen, Elgar'nan, and June are somewhat of a mystery. I actually theorize that they needed Mythal's body for said power, and in that comes Ghili'nain to experiment on her to build something monstrous. One huge thing that stands out to me is Mythal's statue in the deep roads and how her head has the same exact moon-shape as that "evil god" we've seen in a couple of teasers. If they are different beings, then it's peculiar that the "evil god" has the same exact head shape when the designers make sure to differentiate the Elven gods. So... I wonder if the "evil god" has Mythal's head attached onto their body? Much like what we saw in DA2's tragic quest surrounding Hawke's mother. Perhaps a hunting prize for Andruil.
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Post by gervaise21 on Apr 7, 2022 20:04:56 GMT
I actually theorize that they needed Mythal's body for said power, and in that comes Ghili'nain to experiment on her to build something monstrous. I wonder if the "evil god" has Mythal's head attached onto their body? Much like what we saw in DA2's tragic quest surrounding Hawke's mother. Perhaps a hunting prize for Andruil. This is an interesting idea that hadn't occurred to me. There could have been some foreshadowing of this is several previous story lines. Certainly Quentin got his ideas from a book of Necromancy that wasn't common knowledge. The books were passed onto him by Orsino, so likely came from the Gallows archives or may be a cache of books from some hidden place in Darktown. Either way they likely originated from the collection of some ancient Magister and we know that Tevinter scavenged a lot from elven ruins. It is also possible that the book wasn't so much written text as anatomical drawings. WoT2 makes reference to a book known as the "Grim Anatomy" by those that discovered it and includes anatomical drawings of various creatures. Could this be related to the text we find in Trespasser, which could have been the journal of Ghilan'nain, but in that case how come we could read it? So may be some ancient Magisters did experiments based on ancient illustrations of how Ghilan'nain conducted her own. There are also the flesh golems that can be encountered in that DAO DLC and which Orsino also appears to transform into, using knowledge he gained from the books given to Quentin. The knowledge to create the flesh golems in that old thaig would seem to have come from a Tevinter mage, from what I can recall but, as I say, it could have come from elven ruins originally. I think there could be a connection between the magic used in creating Quentin's monstrosities, the flesh golems and the monsters formed by the pools in the Deep Roads. Something else to consider is what the idol is depicting. I've mentioned this before but it looks to me as though the figures are either being birthed or consumed and I did wonder if it was connected to what happened to Mythal at the end. Was the reason Mythal had to flee to the Fade rather than revive herself because they did something to her original body?
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Post by dadithinkimgay on Apr 7, 2022 21:27:32 GMT
I think there could be a connection between the magic used in creating Quentin's monstrosities, the flesh golems and the monsters formed by the pools in the Deep Roads. Oh yes definitely. Didn't Quentin harp on about "touching the face of The Maker," or something like that? Maybe the tool behind these creations was the power that Mythal (or someone or something else) was trying to hide, at least The Grey Pool stuff, as the Grey Warden victim expressed that "she can't have it," making it seem like the power needs to be protected. I've mentioned this before but it looks to me as though the figures are either being birthed or consumed and I did wonder if it was connected to what happened to Mythal at the end. Was the reason Mythal had to flee to the Fade rather than revive herself because they did something to her original body? You know, I have to ask, why wouldn't they? And if the power was beyond her body, why did they have to kill her to obtain said power? Even if she were defending something, say, behind an Eluvian or a door, they could have just incapacitated her to get what they wanted. And once they gain said power, couldn't they have just overpowered her after obtaining it? Maybe it was Mythal's blood, or just something physical about her that the Evanuris needed. Perhaps through her blood she had control over whatever power the Evanuris were trying to obtain? Remember this codex: Hail Mythal, adjudicator and savior! She has struck down the pillars of the earth and rendered their demesne unto the People! Praise her name forever!"
For a moment, the scent of blood fills the air, and there is a vivid image of green vines growing and enveloping a sphere of fire. The vision grows dark. An aeon seems to pass. Then the runes crackle, as if filled with an angry energy. A new vision appears: elves collapsing caverns, sealing the Deep Roads with stone and magic. Terror, heart-pounding, ice-cold, as the last of the spells is cast. A voice whispers:
"What the Evanuris in their greed could unleash would end us all. Let this place be forgotten. Let no one wake its anger. The People must rise before their false gods destroy them all."
"For a moment, the scent of blood fills the air," bit sounds like they used blood magic. And everything was fine for "aeons," until something horrible happened that made something angry. Maybe in order to defeat the Titans, Mythal had to use blood magic, and thus gained some kind of power to perhaps control the Titans or subdue them. As they were connected through blood, perhaps once they killed (or maybe blighted?) Mythal, it caused a chain reaction illustrated by the bit about runes crackling and there being angry energy. And in a sense, the Evanuris' lust for power in orchestrating Mythal's death echoes this event, in that their greed for power will destroy the world.
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Post by gervaise21 on Apr 8, 2022 8:29:46 GMT
Maybe in order to defeat the Titans, Mythal had to use blood magic, and thus gained some kind of power to perhaps control the Titans or subdue them. As they were connected through blood, perhaps once they killed (or maybe blighted?) Mythal, it caused a chain reaction illustrated by the bit about runes crackling and there being angry energy. And in a sense, the Evanuris' lust for power in orchestrating Mythal's death echoes this event, in that their greed for power will destroy the world. I think everything hinges around the reason for Mythal's death, particularly since Solas' explanation of their motivation was pretty generic, a lust for power, without expanding on this. Then when we ask the question "why does this world have to die" he evades giving an answer on the grounds it tells us too much, as it revealing his plan to destroy the world wasn't damaging enough if you don't want the Inquisitor interfering. There are some further curiosities in the Dread Wolf Take You. According to Solas' story both the Tevinter Siccari and the Ben-Hassrath are searching for the idol. When these two sides confront one another, the Qunari points out they are all threatened by the Dread Wolf, so if the Siccari back off and give them the idol the Ben-Hassrath will allow them to leave in peace. In reply the Siccari says: "Do you honestly think you know how to harness this idol's magic better than the mages of Tevinter? We know of the elven upstart...... his ritual has already started to affect the Fade. We cannot risk him acquiring the idol and finishing what he has begun." Now I know by the end that Solas wants Charter to believe that he both has the idol and there is nothing that can be done to stop him and the entire story could have been a fabrication by him to reinforce this idea. However, why would he suggest that the Tevinter mages did have the knowledge to stop him? Why would he suggest that the idol was necessary to complete his project when not only had his ritual already begun but that it had already started to affect the Fade? He is adamant to Charter that not only will his actions destroy the world but they are also necessary save it. This seems repeating the justification he gave for acting against the Evanuris and I had previously thought it was him just trying mitigate his actions in the eyes of the Inquisitor so they don't seem solely motivated by revenge or a selfish desire to restore the world as he wants it. However, what if in some way they are connected? What if whatever he was trying to prevent destroying the world before is going to destroy it now? To some extent this comes back to my idea that it will cleanse the world of the Blight but may be the Blight was only the result of something worse that he managed to contain. Whatever the case, PW did say there were clues about DA4 in Tevinter Nights. It has occurred to me that the tale by Solas would seem to suggest that possibly one part of the plot is going to be to get the Siccari and the Ben-Hassrath to work together, or at least their agents in our party (I'm still hopeful that Rasaan is going to be the Qunari lady). The fact that one of his agents was also trying to create an irreversible breach between Minrathous and Par Vollen would suggest that he does fear them working together against him. The idol is going to be key to everything whether Solas already has it or not. Either we have to stop him finding it or we have to discover where he has hidden it. The knowledge for how to neutralise the idol or use it ourselves, depending on what we discover about its origins and purpose, is probably going to form a major part of our search. Likely the ancient archives of Tevinter are going to be helpful but also the secrets of the Mortalitasi (who after all were founded by a Tevinter mage), plus the ancient memories of Kal-Sharok and secret teachings of the Ariqun. Depending on whether they want to stop the ritual or control it for themselves, the Executors are likely to also have some part to play. What is the importance of that halla statue in the short story Ruins of Reality? The fact that Solas says the ritual had already begun and started to affect the Fade probably accounts for the appearance of the "evil god" shown in some concept art and the trailer, plus the floating landscape that is likely in the area of the Arlathan Forest, bearing in mind that it seems DA4 is going to be set some 7 years after the events in Dread Wolf Take You, meaning that Solas probably started his ritual not long after he met the Inquisitor the previous year. In other words, even before the complete removal of the Veil, weird stuff is going to start happening. Perhaps the halla statue is used to summon Ghilan'nain or her avatar that has been sleeping/imprisoned somewhere, even if the original is still trapped in the Black City. Could the twin headed dragon in the art work be an indication the last two Old Gods are going to be released or is it rather the shape-shifted manifestation of the other god shown in Solas' mural? (Or both). Could the twin heads be a sign it is a manifestation of the twin souls Dirthamen and Falon'Din, whose precise relationship is still ambiguous? I also wonder if we remind Solas of his true self, even if it breaks the Dread Wolf's hold over him, whether the underlying spirit of Mythal will emerge and possess him? Also, whether the drinker of the Well will become significant to how the plot resolves or whether that aspect has been quietly forgotten by the writers.
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