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Post by gervaise21 on Apr 8, 2022 16:59:05 GMT
"For a moment, the scent of blood fills the air," bit sounds like they used blood magic. And everything was fine for "aeons," until something horrible happened that made something angry. I'm pretty sure the ancient elves weren't averse to using blood magic including Mythal, considering Solas doesn't have a problem with it provide it isn't misused. I found it strange that the Dread Wolf's chief objection to the magic used in the Mortalitasi's tale was that it was being used for binding spirits, completely ignoring the fact that a blood sacrifice had taken place. However, he also said that the ritual itself threatened all creation through using the idol carelessly. Now it was the Tevinter mage who came up with the ritual and that was specifically to unlock the power of the idol, so I wonder where he got his information. As I say in my previous post, Solas admits that Tevinter has the knowledge to harness the power of the idol and, thinking about it, I suppose he wasn't really revealing anything that the Mortalitasi hadn't already done so. Somewhere in Tevinter lies the information that the mage used. Seeing as we now know he was the son of Danarius, perhaps it is the same place where he got the knowledge about how to use the sarcophagus. Was it you or someone else who drew attention to the similarity between the shape of the sarcophagus and the depiction of the god's head in the mural? An oddity about the idol itself is its ability to regenerate. Meredith had it melted down, yet after she turned into a lyrium statue, the idol reformed inside of her. That suggests it is organic in some way. Is that the result of the red lyrium or something else? The ritual allowed the mage to unlock the sacrificial blade in the base of the idol, which he used on himself for the next stage. From what the Mortalitasi experienced, it seemed as though this part of the ritual was perhaps linking them to somewhere or something else, the mind of a titan perhaps? Then it took their minds beyond that into the Fade itself. What I find most puzzling about this story is that the blood magic ritual seemed to create a stronger connection with the Fade, which would be understandable from what we know about the ritual of the Ancient Magisters, but contradicts both what Solas said about blood magic and what Isseya observed in Last Flight. She knew Calien wasn't using regular magic because she detected his power wasn't coming from the Fade. Where then? So is it possible that the power does come from the Fade but a different part of it? Or even if the power comes from somewhere else, it helps by-pass the effects of the Veil?
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Post by ellehaym on Apr 9, 2022 18:29:43 GMT
I wonder what Solas ultimate goal is for the Idol? It looks like he's been observing it from afar if the comic is an indicator, so why has he not taken it after those events?
Is he waiting for someone foolish enough to "unlock" it the way he used Corypheus? Clearly he doesn't like it being used how the Mortalitasi did.
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Post by colfoley on Apr 9, 2022 20:11:46 GMT
I wonder what Solas ultimate goal is for the Idol? It looks like he's been observing it from afar if the comic is an indicator, so why has he not taken it after those events? Is he waiting for someone foolish enough to "unlock" it the way he used Corypheus? Clearly he doesn't like it being used how the Mortalitasi did. Maybe he's not actually intending to use it? Wouldn't be the first time that they did sort of an advertising Red Herring and it occurs to me if he's only observing it and not taking it their could be a reason. Maybe he just does not want anyone else to do what he is trying to do without the proper understanding of the consequences?
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Post by gervaise21 on Apr 9, 2022 20:31:21 GMT
Is he waiting for someone foolish enough to "unlock" it the way he used Corypheus? Clearly he doesn't like it being used how the Mortalitasi did A lot depends on whether you believe his story or not. If he already had it though, why did he bother attending the meeting at all? He already knew what had happened with the Carta dwarves because his agents were there and his Dread Wolf persona definitely knew about the Mortalitasi. Possibly he got wind of the fact that the Executor was going to be there and wanted to stop them disclosing anything damaging to his cause but he clearly was there in place of another invitee, the Orlesian Bard. Except the Bards are not a faction in their own right, each acting independently of the others and either offering themselves out to the highest bidder or connecting themselves to whoever is likely to require their services, based off knowledge they have gained of the current state of the Game. What you would not expect them to be knowledgeable on was the search for the Dread Wolf, certainly no more knowledgeable than agents of the Inquisition. Still I presume that it was the Bard from whom he, or his agents, acquired the knowledge of who was expected at the meeting and where it was taking place or at the very least they learned it from elsewhere but intercepted the Bard so Solas could take his place. Anyway, either he attended in order to neutralise the Executor and inform Charter she could stop the search for the idol because he already had it, or he doesn't have it and wanted to discover if they had any new information about where it might be found. That would suggest he lost track of it after it left the Mortalitasi ritual. As for how he intends to use it, I've already mentioned how he maintains his ritual has already started, so the idol wasn't needed to begin the ritual although it might be needed to complete it. I've also suggested above that perhaps the idol is part of his "plans" for the Evanuris. He doesn't need some chump to "unlock it" because it would seem possible to do this without it releasing a huge amount of energy. Also, quite clearly his agents were meant to recover it from the Carta dwarves but the plan went wrong and the idol went north to House Qintara. For some peculiar reason Solas didn't warn all his agents to keep an eye out for it because in the comic series his agent in House Qintara trades the idol for information without apparently realising what it was. Then, again according to the comic, he manages to discover its new location via an eluvian but still prefers to leave recovering it to chance rather than immediately intercepting the Tevinter mage. His orb was a foci and I think the name suggests that they were used to provide a focus for magical energy to be absorbed and stored, ready for release. The anchor started to do something similar towards the end. We had to constantly release the energy before it reached dangerous levels. His orb had clearly been drained by forming the Veil, which would presumably have required a huge amount of magical energy, which is why he needed to wait out the millennia for it to recover before he could reverse the process. It is also possible that the ritual drained him personally, either physically, mentally or both, so he needed to enter uthenera to recover as well. Did his recovery take longer than the orb, so it had built up beyond safe levels? Or was he forced to awaken earlier than he planned, which is why he wasn't strong enough to unlock the orb himself? I've often wondered exactly why he revived at the time he did and wonder if it did have something to do with the discovery of the idol in the Deep Roads or rather the awareness that it was on the surface because of the events in Kirkwall involving Meredith. That would pretty much tie in with when he says he revived. Apparently he didn't think it necessary to go after the idol straight away, probably because only he knew that it would reform inside the petrified Meredith. So instead he focused on unlocking his orb. Had that gone to plan, I think he would have gone to Kirkwall before tearing down the Veil because the idol never was needed for that. With the foci to provide the power and the anchor to keep him in the required location in the Fade, his ritual to remove the Veil would have gone far quicker. The reason it is taking so long this time is that he is using an alternative power source that is not so strong. Besides which, ancient elven rituals did take years so when he spoke of tearing down the Veil, may be he was leaving out the real timescale for dramatic effect and also to keep the Inquisitor in the dark about how long it will take. However, he did say he warned them to allow them a few years of peace, so clearly he did envisage it taking a while. May be that is why he didn't have the same sense of urgency about recovering the idol as he did about unlocking the orb.
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Post by gervaise21 on Apr 9, 2022 20:39:40 GMT
Maybe he just does not want anyone else to do what he is trying to do without the proper understanding of the consequences? There is that too. After all, he knows one set of idiots have already tried using it without understanding the implications. However, I think he did need it for something but being Solas he hasn't been willing to trust even his own agents with full knowledge of its importance. Alternatively, may be he fears that if he told them, they might be tempted to use it for themselves. I do wonder if the idol was the ultimate weapon with which Merrill says he tempted the other gods into his trap. If this was the case, then Merrill says he told them it would win them the war if they acquired it. That could explain both his own interest in it and the Executors interest in his aims and methods of achieving them, because they clearly have prior knowledge of "the Wolf". He now knows they are taking an active interest in him too and he considers them dangerous. Bearing in mind how powerful he has become, that doesn't bode well for any future involvement with them.
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Post by colfoley on Apr 9, 2022 20:50:07 GMT
Maybe he just does not want anyone else to do what he is trying to do without the proper understanding of the consequences? There is that too. After all, he knows one set of idiots have already tried using it without understanding the implications. However, I think he did need it for something but being Solas he hasn't been willing to trust even his own agents with full knowledge of its importance. Alternatively, may be he fears that if he told them, they might be tempted to use it for themselves. I do wonder if the idol was the ultimate weapon with which Merrill says he tempted the other gods into his trap. If this was the case, then Merrill says he told them it would win them the war if they acquired it. That could explain both his own interest in it and the Executors interest in his aims and methods of achieving them, because they clearly have prior knowledge of "the Wolf". He now knows they are taking an active interest in him too and he considers them dangerous. Bearing in mind how powerful he has become, that doesn't bode well for any future involvement with them. It does also occur to me the much bally hoed commentary on how he does not want to use the "Blight" enters into it and this thing is obviously infected with it. He could be just keeping an eye on it to ensure no one uses it for that reason and continuing to spread the Blight/ Red Lyrium. Which does actually play rather nicely into the 'weapon' concept honestly. We know that Andruil and the gods were interested in the stuff in the first place and that it was spreading so...as you said...maybe he created or found a 'weapon' which is the idol which then can spread the Blight/ Red Lyrium super fast. Obviously he wasn't intending to use it back then himself per se but he knew that such a weapon would be enough of a temptation for the Evanuris and their enemies who were crazed and mad. Then maayyyybbbbee (though this could be a stretch) this is one of the things that started a wave of Blight expansion which is why he is so against the use of it because even his own incidental usage in the past caused tragedy? But yeah still I feel like you are right though and the idol does play part of his plans because it still has power, the other hand of this possibility is maybe he is looking for a way to purge the Idol of its corruption that way he can use it in his plan? It could be a powerful artifact in its own right, the Blight obviously super charges it, but he is trying to figure out how to use it without either spreading it, being corrupted, or purging it to make it safe.
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Post by gervaise21 on Apr 10, 2022 8:07:39 GMT
But yeah still I feel like you are right though and the idol does play part of his plans because it still has power, the other hand of this possibility is maybe he is looking for a way to purge the Idol of its corruption that way he can use it in his plan? It could be a powerful artifact in its own right, the Blight obviously super charges it, but he is trying to figure out how to use it without either spreading it, being corrupted, or purging it to make it safe. The other thing to consider is that even a non-mage, Meredith, was able to tap into its power. I've been thinking about the things she was able to do in that final fight and I'm pretty sure it couldn't purely have been because "red lyrium". Now we know that the idol wasn't destroyed by remaking it into the sword and apparently the latest ritual allowed the mage to access a ritual sword, that suggests that the sword Meredith used had the signature of the idol within it. Now it may be that a regular non-mage could not access the magic but Meredith's blood would have been full of regular lyrium, which presumably made her much closer to a mage or elf (all of whom apparently have magical blood even though it doesn't manifest as magical power). Anyway, it seems the likelihood is that if you have magical blood, whether naturally or through drinking lyrium, that you can tap into the magic of the idol. Now consider what the idol enabled Meredith to do. It gave her greatly increased physical abilities, able to jump like a flea and move faster from one point to another. She was able to animate inanimate statues; I'm assuming that the Tevinter mages who made them never intended for them to be able to move. Or did they merely find them and bring them there from somewhere else? In which case perhaps they were originally intended to be operational. There were giant statues in the Western Approach, apparently placed there by Vints but the juggernaut statues that guard Minrathous are giant stone golems intended for defense of the city and allegedly gifted to Minrathous by the dwarves, so may be these other statues were from a similar era. Except we know that the construction of normal golems was only invented by Caradin in response to the Blight, so the knowledge for the creation of the giant statues pre-dated his invention. Did he get his ideas from the methods used for the giant statues by the dwarves in earlier times? If that was the case, why did the Memories have no record of them that the dwarves could have called on in their hour of need? Why was the knowledge lost with Caradin? Perhaps they were never the invention of the dwarves but Caradin found some ancient texts that he translated that gave him his ideas. The juggernauts and other statues that were gifted to Tevinter were something the dwarves found, possibly in the Deep Roads, because the ancient dwarves assisted in their basic construction, but it was the Vints who found a way to unlock their abilities through magic, much as the ancient elves did or more precisely, Mythal. That would then make the connection between the idol and the ability to control the statues. So we have an idol that can make its wielder stronger physically, can perform a ritual to command spirits and can also control an army of giant stone and metal golems. Would that not be something worth killing for? However, would that also not be something that would give Mythal ultimate power over the other gods? In which case their action against her was also in self-defense before she could utilise it. (Or they created it and Fen'Harel stole it before they could use it). That would make a lot of sense, particularly if Fen'Harel had already started an uprising against their rule with Mythal's blessing and would also explain why we found it locked away in the Deep Roads, in an Ancient Thaig forgotten even by the dwarves. If we assume the Forgotten Ones were actually powerful elves that joined with Fen'Harel on the side of the rebels, then it fits Merrill's version of Fen'Harel's betrayal of both sides perfectly and is a lot more plausible than the other Dalish version that he simply persuaded them to go to their respective headquarters whilst he arranged a truce. Personally, I can't see the Evanuris agreeing to any sort of truce. However, I can see both the Evanuris and the Forgotten Ones responding to an enticement where he maintained he knew the location of this ultimate weapon. They left for the location he had identified, presumably through an eluvian, and then he sprang his trap. If I'm right about this then there are going to be a lot of people wanting to get their hands on that idol for the power it will give them. Probably, a bit like the one ring, it is something that you cannot use, even with good intentions, without it corrupting you. So our hero's job will not simply be to find it but to stop anyone else from using it and to resist the temptation to use it themselves, before finding a way to destroy it. This would also fit with Morrigan's words in that 2013 trailer for DAI: "Will you stand against the darkness or lead this world to its bitter end," plus Solas' words in that Behind the Scenes video: "They call me the Dread Wolf, what will they call you."
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Post by gervaise21 on Apr 11, 2022 13:32:00 GMT
I've just noticed what is in the background of this screenshot of Corypheus at the Shrine of Sacred Ashes. I dare say people have mentioned it before now but I completely missed it. So Whose head do you imagine that is? You might think Andraste but I don't recall any statue of that size when we visited there in DAO. Could it be Mythal since people have discovered her image on the floor of the temple? Or is it someone else entirely? Note that most statues we find of Mythal in game have her face obscured so this would be unusual if it were her. Also bearing in mind that site can often be viewed as sacred by more than one religion, for example the Black City is variously the home of the elven gods, the home of the Old Gods and the home of the Maker, could this site have been a place of worship between the time of Mythal and the time of Andraste? So this could be an image of, say, Razikale.
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Post by Cyberstrike on Apr 11, 2022 14:37:17 GMT
My theory is that Solas is possessed by Flemeth/Mythal and if Morrigan's son the soul or power of the old god she took that power basically making him a tranquil (and he doesn't the soul of an old god, isn't then she made him tranquil to either save him from demons and/or to mess with Morrigan or both) all of for her to achieve "a reckoning that will shake the very heavens!" Solas stated that Mythal was the most powerful of the ancient elves. We know she can body hop and I think that is what she did at the end in DAI she body hopped into Solas (with power of an old god if Keenan had the soul of an old god). Morrigan stated in DAO that really didn't understand the body hopping spell and the more powerful and trained the easier it's for Flemeth to settle in. Flemeth also stated in DAI that she couldn't force it on unwilling host but at the end of DAI Solas wants to "help" but doesn't have the power (or the desire to tear down the Fade) and Flemeth jumps into his body because he's willing and powerful. That it's Mythal wants to tear down the Fade and destroy those that betrayed her once and for all.
It's just a theory but the games seem to be pointing in that general direction.
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Post by azarhal on Apr 11, 2022 14:40:29 GMT
I've just noticed what is in the background of this screenshot of Corypheus at the Shrine of Sacred Ashes. I dare say people have mentioned it before now but I completely missed it. So Whose head do you imagine that is? You might think Andraste but I don't recall any statue of that size when we visited there in DAO. Could it be Mythal since people have discovered her image on the floor of the temple? Or is it someone else entirely? Note that most statues we find of Mythal in game have her face obscured so this would be unusual if it were her. Also bearing in mind that site can often be viewed as sacred by more than one religion, for example the Black City is variously the home of the elven gods, the home of the Old Gods and the home of the Maker, could this site have been a place of worship between the time of Mythal and the time of Andraste? So this could be an image of, say, Razikale. There was a lots of big "Andraste" statue in Ferelden in DAI that were nowhere to be seen in DAO. I think the statue size is more of a "engine limitation/art restyle" thing. Now who exactly is the woman on those statue is the real question, because even in DAO there was a lot of statues asset reuse and it was on purpose (instead of it just being production asset reusing to cut cost). The fact that DAI proved "this place is elven, look at the architecture" was accurate is proof enough, but then they doubled down on it with the Masked Andraste lore. Back in DAO, the Temple of Sacred Ashes had the DAO "Andraste statues", but also the winged Elven woman one that is probably a depiction of Mythal. She's also shown winged in her DAI statues. So the normal looking human woman must be someone else. Another interesting tidbits, there are "Andraste statues" in Kinloch Hold (no winged statues there) and the place was said to be build by Razikale's followers. Note that the place is mostly Elven architecture, saying that we don't know when those statues were put there. Was it the original elven builders, the Razikale's followers or the Andrastian circle of magi who put the statues there...
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Post by gervaise21 on Apr 11, 2022 15:46:29 GMT
Another interesting tidbits, there are "Andraste statues" in Kinloch Hold (no winged statues there) and the place was said to be build by Razikale's followers. Note that the place is mostly Elven architecture, saying that we don't know when those statues were put there. Was it the original elven builders, the Razikale's followers or the Andrastian circle of magi who put the statues there... Long ago PW confirmed that a lot of Tevinter cities and structures are built over elven ruins, probably because they had a magical signature that their mages valued. We know that Kinloch Hold has long been a site of magical significance. I think it said somewhere that there was some sort of structure on the site built by the Avvar, which the Tevinter mages took over and improved upon, which makes sense considering the name isn't Tevinter but Avvar. However, it is also entirely possible that the Avvar selected the site because it had some ancient religious significance. Certainly, Lake Calenhad is connected with their legends about their gods and if I had to hazard a guess, I'd say it was likely a tower dedicated to the Lady of the Skies, whom I believe may well be connected with Mythal. We had some earlier discussions on this thread about a possible connection with Razikale as well. She was patron goddess of Minrathous before it became part of the united Imperium and I wouldn't be at all surprised to discover that Minrathous was originally the site of one of Mythal's cities/temples too. It may well be that in Minrathous at least the dragon statues pre-dated the worship of the Old Gods and probably influenced their association with dragons. In the Dalish origin in DAO we remark on the architecture looking like that of Tevinter, even though the structure it is largely below ground and also has elven statues within it, plus an eluvian. So despite Duncan erroneously connecting it to Tevinter, I think it is more likely that the architecture looks Tevinter because they built upon and co-opted similarly looking elven structures in the north. Which is why it is hard to say which god or goddess a statue might have originally meant to have honoured. That statue was clearly very large to begin with though and we know that Elgar'nan had a very large statue built to honour him, so why not Mythal too? The problem with that theory is the fact that you can clearly see the features and it doesn't strike me as elven. I don't think it would have been the work of the original cultists since they wouldn't have wanted to draw attention to the site when they originally constructed it and over the years seemed to have ignored it to a large extent, although it was interesting that they believed Andraste had been reincarnated as a dragon, which fits with barbarians beliefs, both the Avvar and the ancient Neromenians. Why did they choose that particular site for the ashes in the first place? Could it be that it had long had religious associations. Bearing in mind the mountain underneath was full of lyrium, according to Oghran, may be that is why the Augurs of the Avvar and the priesthood of the Old Gods could have been drawn to the site, because it had a tendency to enhance magical rituals for contacting the spirit world. This is why I wondered if between the time of the ancient elves and the hiding of the ashes here, it had already been adopted by the barbarians as a religious site and then by the priesthood of Razikale as well. They came down to the Frostback Mountains in order to try and make contact with their goddess when she fell silent on them, which does seem odd if they didn't already strongly associate her with this area. A further thought, could the ashes have been brought here because it was where Andraste had told her followers that she had first made contact with the Maker?
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Post by gervaise21 on Apr 11, 2022 16:24:31 GMT
Solas wants to "help" but doesn't have the power (or the desire to tear down the Fade) and Flemeth jumps into his body because he's willing and powerful. That it's Mythal wants to tear down the Fade and destroy those that betrayed her once and for all. Remember that Solas always planned to tear down the Veil using his orb and Flemeth/Mythal was expecting him to make contact with her. It is interesting that she already seemed to know of the destruction of the orb without him telling her. Did she feel it? Or had he already made contact with her through the Fade and suggested the place of their meeting? She admonished him for giving his orb to Corypheus. You would think that if he knew she was alive he would have contacted her first. That would suggest it was a surprise to him, yet he knew it was a possibility (or so he claims) because it was why he opted for locking away the Evanuris instead of simply killing them. He also visited Flemeth's Hut after he awoke, which seems an enormous coincidence if he didn't have some idea it was associated with Mythal. In DA2 Flemeth says how she needs to leave to make a meeting with someone. Could that be Solas? (Otherwise who?) Although that was 9:32 and he claims he didn't awaken until the end of 9:38/beginning of 9:39. Was being inside Flemeth making contact via the Fade more difficult for her? So Solas knew someone was looking for him but wasn't sure who? He certainly sounded astonished when he saw the inner sanctum of the Temple of Mythal and said "So Mythal lives", which suggests that the place would have fallen into decay if she was truly dead. Then again, why didn't he head there when he first woke up? So I think there are aspects to the story where the writers didn't really join the dots. It may well be that the presence of Mythal within him is going to influence his future actions but only if he becomes persuaded not to go through with his plan as I think she may have other ideas, whereas at present their ambitions are aligned and she is prepared to take a back seat, just providing the power but letting him decide how best to use it. As we have been discussing above, the interesting part seems to be how they intend dealing with the freed Evanuris and I'm fairly convinced that is where the idol comes in. That is why he was rather vague in revealing exactly what "his plans" for them were to the Inquisitor. Plan A was recover the orb (get some chump to unlock it), start the ritual for removing the Veil, recover the idol, step into the Fade and wait for his ritual to complete. This plan stalled at the first stage and then the orb was destroyed, so now he has moved to Plan B: Start the ritual for removing the Veil (which without the orb is going to take much longer), recover the idol and wait for his ritual to come to fruition. It remains to be seen whether he has actually recovered the idol or not.
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Post by gervaise21 on Apr 13, 2022 13:54:49 GMT
I've been doing some more musing on elven lore, having watched a scene from the Vir Dirthara this morning. It was where the spirit memory was talking about Fen'Harel and I realised that the speaker was totally aware that Fen'Harel was responsible for raising the Veil, that he had disappeared straight afterwards, after which the elven empire, including all its magical structures, started to crumble and that to stop the rot they needed to get rid of the Veil, something that apparently only Solas knew how to do. There is the threat to kill Fen'Harel, so did they think killing him would remove the Veil?
This made me wonder about Abelas since he claimed the empire was destroyed by civil war but that was no more accurate than the Dalish believing the destruction of Arlathan was the responsibility of the humans. The rebellion preceded Fen'Harel erecting the Veil and this is remembered by the Dalish as the war between the Creators and the Forgotten Ones but whilst it probably did result in a fair bit of destruction, both the memory in the Vir Dirthara and Solas himself admits that it was the Veil that was the chief cause of the fall of the elves, both in their loss of immortality and their magnificent buildings. The poem Where the Willows Wail, allegedly found in the Temple of Mythal, also bemoans how they lost the People to war. This and other writings we can find in the game at the ToM would suggest that it was fairly soon after Mythal's death that they cut themselves off from the outside world but then how can Abelas have been so adamant that the elves had been responsible for their own destruction? Seeing as the enclave at the other end of Thedas in the Arlathan Forest also seemed to go into retreat almost immediately after the Veil was raised and did not even know about Mythal's death, it is hardly surprising that when they awoke hundreds of years later and saw the destruction of their empire, they thought the human civilisation currently attacking them was responsible for it.
What happened to Fen'Harel's other followers? Whilst he locked away the Forgotten Ones, they were merely the generals in the rebellion and there had to be many others. Clearly some went into retreat to await his return, for example Felassan and other ancient elves mentioned in Tevinter Nights. Did he contact them through the Fade and encourage them to do this? Or, if he remained silent, did they simply do so until such time as he contacted them again? I'm still puzzled why Felassan was around some 20 years or possibly longer before Solas awoke. If his mission was to get the eluvian network up and running again why did it take him so long? If that was his mission, why get involved with Briala at all? There has to be something else we don't know about.
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Post by catcher on Apr 21, 2022 15:20:08 GMT
OK, I'm feeling like letting my Dragon Age freak flag fly. What if, while the "Solas" form was sleeping, Fen'Harel was actually wandering Thedas in different bodies? What would make even my off-kilter brain conjure this up? The Hissing Wastes seems like a real waste in Inquisition, not only in plot (the Big Bad Venatori doesn't even get a fancy name) but in lore. Except there is one piece about dragons (and fear of them) being enshrined in Fariel's clan's coat of arms and history which is a puzzlement as the dwarves aren't even supposed to have interacted frequently with dragons. Then I found out about the small dragon (maybe Mythal) shrine on the top of the portico into Fariel's Tomb itself. I was thinking about possible meanings when I found myself thinking about Fariel's name and how I heard another Player pronounce it. I had been using the long E sound Feh-REEL but he pronounced both vowels with separate sounds like Far-i-ell. Then it struck me how close that sounds to Fen'Harel. This thought is coming to me as I'm discussing with gervaise the Descent side quest The Rune Locked Doors of Segrumar and how the 'Creator' speaker writes like Solas sounds (check out the Halla Enigma thread if you're not following). Then there's Feynriel, the Dreamer in Exodus when we know Fen'Harel has those powers and look at that name. OK, I'll stop spouting crazy now.
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Post by gervaise21 on Apr 21, 2022 18:25:29 GMT
What if, while the "Solas" form was sleeping, Fen'Harel was actually wandering Thedas in different bodies? May be not actually possessing their bodies but controlling them from the Fade in some way? There is something odd about how he has been perceived by different people. The memories in the Vir Dirthara said that not only did the gods disappear after his action but that he fell silent too. Why did he go silent on them? They seem to be associated with him in some way because they know what he has done with the Veil and want him to reverse it. Not surprisingly they were not happy with him leaving them in the lurch like that. Meanwhile, the Dalish know why he took the action he did but nothing about the Veil. As far as they are concerned, Fen'Harel is very much present in the Fade, which I now suspect lies behind their fear of working with spirits. They seem to be of the opinion that he could help them if he wanted to but doesn't really care about the elves. This is likely because they are the wrong sort of elves in his eyes; the followers of the Evanuris. However, another thing that Mihris says about the ancient dreamers is their ability to contact people from the Fade. This seems to tie in with the people in the Vir Dirthara thinking he should have contacted them. We know Fen'Harel can do this from his interaction with Felassan and, of course, Solas recounts various things he "saw in the Fade". Some of it is likely knowledge he had from before his slumber but it does seem that he is able to travel to other parts of the world and see what people are doing there, since he tells the story of the Qunari baker, when I doubt he has been to Par Vollen since the Qun occupied it. So I would imagine it is perfectly possible that he could have influenced people down the years. The question is, was Solas doing this from his slumber or was it Fen'Harel operating independently? Did the creation of the Veil sunder Solas in some way from his alter ego in the Fade? Or does his consciousness in the Fade flip flop between Solas and Fen'Harel, with him not actually remembering what the other half did when in control?
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Post by xerrai on Apr 26, 2022 3:05:48 GMT
What if, while the "Solas" form was sleeping, Fen'Harel was actually wandering Thedas in different bodies? May be not actually possessing their bodies but controlling them from the Fade in some way? There is something odd about how he has been perceived by different people. The memories in the Vir Dirthara said that not only did the gods disappear after his action but that he fell silent too. Why did he go silent on them? They seem to be associated with him in some way because they know what he has done with the Veil and want him to reverse it. Not surprisingly they were not happy with him leaving them in the lurch like that. Meanwhile, the Dalish know why he took the action he did but nothing about the Veil. As far as they are concerned, Fen'Harel is very much present in the Fade, which I now suspect lies behind their fear of working with spirits. They seem to be of the opinion that he could help them if he wanted to but doesn't really care about the elves. This is likely because they are the wrong sort of elves in his eyes; the followers of the Evanuris.[...] Cole may have given us a clue. "He broke the dreams to stop the old dreams from waking. The wolf chews its leg off to escape the trap." I think whatever Solas did to trap the Evanuris, a piece of himself got trapped with them while giving him a serious spiritual injury. It has always been implied that whatever he did back then put him in a deep dreamless slumber (which would explain why he went silent that day) but Cole's quote opens up the possibility that something could have spawned from the metaphorical 'leg' that he left behind....although one would presume it would be trapped with the Evanuris, and thus unable to interact with the fade/physical realm in a significant way. But then, is that piece of him 'awake' as opposed to the 'old dreams' he tried to prevent from 'waking'? We know from Mythal that small pieces of a soul can exist and have a spark of the will/memories of their original owner, so it is definitely a possibility, at least.
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Post by gervaise21 on Apr 26, 2022 8:28:09 GMT
Cole may have given us a clue. "He broke the dreams to stop the old dreams from waking. The wolf chews its leg off to escape the trap." I've wondered about this too. Perhaps in order to get them to enter his trap he actually had to go with them or at least have some piece of him present there which would entice them in. Could it have something to do with the Dalish idea that he told them he wanted to call a truce? If he was the leader of the rebellion it would make sense that he would need to be present for them to take it seriously. There is also the possibility that he had to use more than one piece of himself if the rest of the legend is correct and both sides returned to their respective HQ. In Felassan's story about Fen'Harel, Andruil and Anaris, he speaks of the two gods having to sleep to recover from their wounds, whilst Fen'Harel chews through the ropes to free himself, so there is that idea of him needing to destroy something in order to escape. Whatever he did does seem to have so drained him that it required millennia for his physical self to recover and possibly his spiritual self too. Alternatively, did he need someone to bring him out of slumber in the Waking World? For Flemeth to be restored from her locket someone had to do that ritual on Mythal's altar. May be Solas was the same. So the piece of him that he had left in the Waking World was stuck in limbo until he was released. In which case, back in ancient times, did someone double cross him by not instantly calling him back? So the rest of his followers were expecting him to contact them but instead he remained silent. Meanwhile, his alter ego, Fen'Harel, stalked the Fade but whilst Solas was still trapped in limbo, he had no control over it and it did behave like a devouring monster. I also wonder if he was in a safe house behind an eluvian and unable to get out until the system was restored. In fact, may be the eluvian was needed so that someone else could get in and restore him. That would explain why he was so pissed with Felassan. Even if he was now able to leave through the network becoming operational, Felassan's actions could have jeopardised his freedom. The only thing that would seem to contradict this idea is that he said he awoke a year before the Breach but I don't think the civil war that followed on from Masked Empire had been going that long. However, the writers were a bit vague with dates and needing the eluvian network to start working before his active return to the Waking World would explain the timing of his awakening. Otherwise, I have continually asked, why then? What event triggered his return to the world that had happened precisely at that time? Did it really take that long for him/his orb to recover? The solution is that he was trapped behind the mirror himself, unable to awaken physically, so only able to interact with the world through the Fade.
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Post by Cyberstrike on Apr 28, 2022 14:31:25 GMT
I think that Jade Empire is set on the same world as Thedas, just on different continent and maybe different time periods.
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Post by colfoley on Apr 29, 2022 20:28:49 GMT
So here is a crazy off the cuff thought. I do wonder how much of this game is going to be centered around the central question brought up at the end of Tresspasser. Now this seems like a 'no duh' in a lot of ways but it occurs to me that given the nature of the question, and how powerful Solas is, I wonder if part of convincing him will result from finding peaceful solutions to these problems, where possible, rather then violent ones. Now while BioWare could easily fashion us with some sort of weapon to defeat him so the threat is removed either way the best ending might result from convincing him peacefully, and if you convince him peacefully that should require you to react to peace in the other situations presented in game.
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Post by gervaise21 on Apr 30, 2022 8:32:27 GMT
Now while BioWare could easily fashion us with some sort of weapon to defeat him so the threat is removed either way the best ending might result from convincing him peacefully, and if you convince him peacefully that should require you to react to peace in the other situations presented in game. This reminds me of the original Planescape: Torment. When I played it I maxed out on my wisdom score, which meant I had the option to resolve a lot of conflict situations just by talking my way out of them. When I couldn't then my more martial companions helped me out of the fix. I also fashioned a weapon that could resolve my problem of constant rebirth. So at the end, I had 3 options: Fight my opponent, simply use the weapon or reason them into surrender by threatening to use it. I opted for the latter. It is the first time I had ever "won" a fantasy game by not engaging in final battle to the death and I found it really satisfying, but I appreciate not everyone feels that way. That was what was so great about it, though. People who wanted a big battle were able to have one and likely wouldn't even get the option of using superior wisdom to talking their enemy down because they had focused on other attributes like strength and dexterity. I wouldn't have any objection if they used a similar outcome for Solas, particularly if how you played in the rest of the game did determine which options are available to you. That would entirely respect player choice; ultimately giving the same conclusion but using different methods to achieve it.
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Post by gervaise21 on May 10, 2022 8:42:16 GMT
One of the strange things about the Magisters Sidereal is how they were completely absent from the First Blight. This lasted 200 years, which was a long time for them to be in circulation and yet not detected. Why did the Grey Wardens only become aware of Corypheus after the death of Dumat. He was clearly drawn to the corpse of the Arch-demon because they used this to entrap him, so why wasn't he following the Arch-demon around when it was alive? Why wasn't he it's chief lieutenant? In Legacy he was still complaining about the state of the city to Dumat as though suffering from amnesia about previous events involving the Grey Wardens and the fact that Dumat was dead. We have a similar strange aspect to the Architect. He was active well before the Fifth Blight trying to turn everyone into darkspawn, then after his plan was foiled he came up with a different plan of trying to free the darkspawn from the call of the Old Gods. To this end he also tried to contact Urthemiel, which according to the titles given to the priesthood of the various gods, was actually the deity he served. This seems too much of coincidence for there not to be something else to it. However, a further thought has occurred to me. Where was the Architect during the Fifth Blight? (Now it may be the writers didn't even consider this plot hole but I'm going to assume there is a relevance).
I've suggested before that the trigger for each god to arise is not simply darkspawn breaking in but the action of their respective Magister Sidereal. The Architect touching Urthemiel was not what corrupted the Old God because it was already corrupt. Why would the Architect think it needed to be freed of its thrall to the blight if it wasn't already blighted? Why would Grey Wardens be able to hear the song of an unbligted creature? If the Old Gods were already blighted in their prisons, may be they were imprisoned because they were blighted. No one could hear their song so could not locate and free them. The only way this could be achieved would be for some intelligent creature to become tainted and then seek them out, using the song as a guide. The only way for that to happen would be for the intelligent creature to go to the city in the Fade, where the blight was also contained, and become tainted. It is said that the Old Gods spoke to the early humans via the Fade and taught them blood magic. An alternative hypothesis that has been put forward in world is that they learned it from the elves. Since it seems highly likely the ancient elves did use blood magic, this theory could also be true. Whatever the case, it was apparently Dumat (or elves connected with him) who made the first contact. From there the gods advanced the progress of Tevinter to the point where they had the knowledge and resources to break into the Fade City. This included enslaving large numbers of elves because it couldn't be achieved with the blood of any other race.
I think those first words Corypheus speaks after being freed from his prison suggest a disorientation after being so long in a form of hibernation. For a time, his memory returns to another time when he had slumbered before being awakened. He recognised he was in the Deep Roads but not a part he was familiar with. He complained to Dumat that the city was not what he had expected to find. Back in ancient times, what followed was being called by Dumat to locate and free him. On doing so, there was some sort of mental connection made between them that left Corypheus unconscious underground whilst Dumat roamed abroad. Then when Dumat was finally slain, it broke the mental connection and Corypheus returned to the surface but with a residual attraction to the corpse of his god. This brought him into contact with the Grey Wardens but still suffering from a degree of amnesia. It is possible that killing his original body, allowing him to jump to a fresh mind, is what finally cured him of his amnesia and allowed him to recall all the events surrounding the Black City enterprise.
If this theory is anywhere near the truth, then each Magister was necessary to revive each god, with a degree of memory loss before before reviving it and after its death. Hence the Architect seemingly unaware of his origins and that other group of Magisters Sidereal that the dwarf encountered in the Deep Roads. Also, as each priest was mentally connected to their own god, this would account for why Corypheus seemed to think he was the only one left of his party that had entered the Black City. Yet the Architect is likely still alive (whether or not we kill him) but presumably had no desire to get involved in the schemes of Corypheus a second time.
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Post by colfoley on May 10, 2022 11:03:36 GMT
One of the strange things about the Magisters Sidereal is how they were completely absent from the First Blight. This lasted 200 years, which was a long time for them to be in circulation and yet not detected. Why did the Grey Wardens only become aware of Corypheus after the death of Dumat. He was clearly drawn to the corpse of the Arch-demon because they used this to entrap him, so why wasn't he following the Arch-demon around when it was alive? Why wasn't he it's chief lieutenant? In Legacy he was still complaining about the state of the city to Dumat as though suffering from amnesia about previous events involving the Grey Wardens and the fact that Dumat was dead. We have a similar strange aspect to the Architect. He was active well before the Fifth Blight trying to turn everyone into darkspawn, then after his plan was foiled he came up with a different plan of trying to free the darkspawn from the call of the Old Gods. To this end he also tried to contact Urthemiel, which according to the titles given to the priesthood of the various gods, was actually the deity he served. This seems too much of coincidence for there not to be something else to it. However, a further thought has occurred to me. Where was the Architect during the Fifth Blight? (Now it may be the writers didn't even consider this plot hole but I'm going to assume there is a relevance). I've suggested before that the trigger for each god to arise is not simply darkspawn breaking in but the action of their respective Magister Sidereal. The Architect touching Urthemiel was not what corrupted the Old God because it was already corrupt. Why would the Architect think it needed to be freed of its thrall to the blight if it wasn't already blighted? Why would Grey Wardens be able to hear the song of an unbligted creature? If the Old Gods were already blighted in their prisons, may be they were imprisoned because they were blighted. No one could hear their song so could not locate and free them. The only way this could be achieved would be for some intelligent creature to become tainted and then seek them out, using the song as a guide. The only way for that to happen would be for the intelligent creature to go to the city in the Fade, where the blight was also contained, and become tainted. It is said that the Old Gods spoke to the early humans via the Fade and taught them blood magic. An alternative hypothesis that has been put forward in world is that they learned it from the elves. Since it seems highly likely the ancient elves did use blood magic, this theory could also be true. Whatever the case, it was apparently Dumat (or elves connected with him) who made the first contact. From there the gods advanced the progress of Tevinter to the point where they had the knowledge and resources to break into the Fade City. This included enslaving large numbers of elves because it couldn't be achieved with the blood of any other race. I think those first words Corypheus speaks after being freed from his prison suggest a disorientation after being so long in a form of hibernation. For a time, his memory returns to another time when he had slumbered before being awakened. He recognised he was in the Deep Roads but not a part he was familiar with. He complained to Dumat that the city was not what he had expected to find. Back in ancient times, what followed was being called by Dumat to locate and free him. On doing so, there was some sort of mental connection made between them that left Corypheus unconscious underground whilst Dumat roamed abroad. Then when Dumat was finally slain, it broke the mental connection and Corypheus returned to the surface but with a residual attraction to the corpse of his god. This brought him into contact with the Grey Wardens but still suffering from a degree of amnesia. It is possible that killing his original body, allowing him to jump to a fresh mind, is what finally cured him of his amnesia and allowed him to recall all the events surrounding the Black City enterprise. If this theory is anywhere near the truth, then each Magister was necessary to revive each god, with a degree of memory loss before before reviving it and after its death. Hence the Architect seemingly unaware of his origins and that other group of Magisters Sidereal that the dwarf encountered in the Deep Roads. Also, as each priest was mentally connected to their own god, this would account for why Corypheus seemed to think he was the only one left of his party that had entered the Black City. Yet the Architect is likely still alive (whether or not we kill him) but presumably had no desire to get involved in the schemes of Corypheus a second time. It is worth pointing out to while i have not mentioned it further it did occur to me that Corypheus being alive might be the biggest indication Dumat might also be alive in some form and this still fits in nicely...though I guess the Architect did survive Urthemiel's death, damn.
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Post by gervaise21 on May 10, 2022 12:42:29 GMT
It is worth pointing out to while i have not mentioned it further it did occur to me that Corypheus being alive might be the biggest indication Dumat might also be alive in some form and this still fits in nicely...though I guess the Architect did survive Urthemiel's death, damn. We only have the Grey Wardens' assertion that a Grey Warden killing the Arch-demon destroys its soul. In fact one version we are given in DAO (was it in the codex?) doesn't say it destroys the soul, just kills both the Arch-demon and the Grey Warden. The Arch-demon is a corrupted Old God, so why doesn't killing them both free the Old God to continue an untainted life? Dumat could have returned to the Fade and be happily doing his thing from there. Seeing as he is the god of silence, you wouldn't expect to hear much from him. The only reason I think we can assume that all previous Old Gods are dead and gone is the Dark Ritual. Flemeth wanted to save it, or at least that is what she told Morrigan. Was it merely because she wanted its power or genuinely wished to preserve it, either from annihilation or the Void? ("Snatched from the jaws of darkness" could mean either). OGB Kieran seems fairly benign and even apologetic about actions he is aware of from the past; is that merely the child Kieran speaking or the Old God through him? Who gave the Wardens the idea about how to stop the regeneration of the Arch-demon originally? Did some bright spark from among their number merely work it out in theory and they took a punt with their idea in practice? Or did some helpful denizen of the Fade tell them? I am still puzzled why the Arch-demon regeneration works differently from that of Corypheus, or Flemeth for that matter. Morrigan suggests it has to do with his dragon but that doesn't make sense because there was no dragon in Legacy, or that the Grey Wardens were aware of in ancient times. Until Morrigan came up with her theory, I thought the dragon was merely something that Corypheus had acquired since Hawke freed him. Solas said he never guessed that an ancient Magister would have worked out the secret of effective immortality but it is unclear what exactly that secret is. For Flemeth it seemed to be putting a piece of herself in an object; for Corypheus we were told it was sharing his soul with the dragon. We can leave Flemeth alive in DAO so what happened to her then? Did her body dissolve in one location so she can reappear on Sundermount? Did Corypheus sharing his soul with the dragon mean he could share consciousness with it as well? So when the dragon accompanied Erimond, was that actually Corypheus controlling its actions? Anyway, if they suddenly said that Dumat (and the other Old Gods) didn't really die when their dragon was killed, it wouldn't come as an enormous surprise. Also, I do wonder if the two remaining Old Gods are going to be involved in some way in the next game. Could a disguised Magister Sidereal even feature among our companions? We know Corypheus spent some considerable time as either Janeka or Larius, so apparently could control whether or not there was an instant transformation back to his original appearance, so what if either the Augur of Mystery or the Watchman of the Night had done the same?
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Post by Cyberstrike on May 10, 2022 21:58:51 GMT
Thedas is actually a Cybertronian colony world from The Transformers.
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Post by catcher on May 11, 2022 17:43:07 GMT
Just backing up some things gervaise has theorized, here's a bit of lore from Valamar called A Different Darkspawn from the Wiki
Several items from this little gold mine. First, the friendly darkspawn was most likely The Architect from temperament, time, and location. Temprament is easy (though its always possible there's another politeish MS, I doubt it based on the report of the three above). Time was around 20 years ago based from the note which would have been 10 years before the archdemon Urthemiel emerged somewhere in Ferelden (which seems about right for how long it takes an archdemon to gather forces and emerge based on past history. Second, this lore further confirms the story that The Architect was responsible for starting the Fifth Blight and so gives credence to gervaise's theory. Third, it also reinforces the idea that there is some kind of 'amnesia' or perhaps better 'senility' that affects the Magisters Sidereal after their transformation. This would probably explain why they hadn't taken a more noticeable, significant role in history (outside Corypheus). An aside: I think Cory was at least partly restored by the red lyrium. that could become an important plot point in DA4. Fourth, and here's the biggie, is one of the MS truly dead and if so, which one? The tale above I place roughly 120 years after the events of DA:I (25 years per generation plus 20 for the age of the note) which would be before the Fifth Blight but after all others. If each one is required to awaken their respective archdemon, then is the dead one one who has already raised an archdemon, or one of the two left? What if we're closer than we think to having no more archdemons (and possibly something worse given Fen'harel's digs at Blackwall and reaction to Clarel's plan)? As a minor question, does this mean the senility is part of raising an archdemon or just some deterioration of the mind over time or by exposure?
Thanks for your time.
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