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Post by gervaise21 on May 13, 2022 11:47:13 GMT
As a minor question, does this mean the senility is part of raising an archdemon or just some deterioration of the mind over time or by exposure? I do wonder about this. Even if you are "effectively immortal" in body, because it lasts far longer than normal, there is some sort of deterioration over time with a corresponding breakdown in mental capacity. However, this can be overcome by swapping to a new body. Hence Corypheus improving once he had jumped to Janeka/Larius and possibly improving some more when he jumped again following the explosion at the Temple of Sacred Ashes. This idea would seem confirmed by what happens with the Arch-demon. It is the corruption of the body which seems to cloud its mind. Once transferred to a largely non corrupted foetus (although apparently it is the small amount of taint from the Grey Warden that guides it in), the Old God can think clearly again and recover memories of its past life and knowledge gained therein. Likewise, I think there must have been something to the procedure that Morrigan uncovered in the Grimoire. Flemeth says she was never in any danger because the soul is not forced on the unwilling but that doesn't mean at some point Morrigan might not have agreed to some sort of union. Morrigan says it would work best with a new host that is as like as possible to the previous one. Clearly, using your own daughter would give a similarity as close as possible in the body and then training the mind until they finally agree to the procedure, would ensure the mind was ready to receive it. It is also possible that even Flemeth did not fully realise the implication of this, having been taught it by Mythal and the latter only revealing as much as suited her, so it was always going to be a case that Mythal would jump and leave Flemeth behind. Or Flemeth did realise the implication and that is why she placed something in the eluvian before Solas turned up, that would ensure Flemeth survived in her own right. You see, I do wonder if Flemeth's body was reaching the end of its useful life so far as Mythal was concerned and there was starting to be some urgency in finding a new host. If Yavana was truly killed by Alistair, that ruled out one potential host, although considering how long Yavana had been around I think she knew a trick or two about preserving herself. Still, let's assume she is dead. There may or may not be OGB Kieran but he is a boy and Flemeth makes the decision not to go with transferring to him but instead transferring the OG soul to her (unless that was always the plan). Anyway, Mythal had identified a better host in Solas; an ancient elf so much closer to what Mythal had been originally. So he turns up and shows himself willing for a transfer (had may be even indicated as much through the Fade) and Mythal makes the swap, leaving Flemeth's body lifeless. We already know from the OGB that it seems possible to have more than once spiritual essence sharing the vessel of the host and since Flemeth also says that they essentially become unified, perhaps Flemeth can still be said to exist within Solas along with the OGB and Mythal. Clearly, though, Mythal is the dominant force present, based off the fact that Fen'Harel now appears in the Fade as a dragon/wolf hybrid. As Solas has spent the millennia, and certainly the period of time Flemeth has been active, in uthenera, his body and mind are still working effectively. I'm guessing, though, that the longer he remains outside of uthenera, the greater the deterioration potential, at least so long as the Veil is present. The reason the Evanuris and the elves in general were immortal in ancient times was the absence of the Veil, because they were in constant connection to the magic of the Fade. When it comes to the Magisters Sidereal, it is possible that the taint does seem to give them some degree of longevity because they are now drawing on a different source of power than the Fade. Even so, there is still a limit to this "effective immortality" and that is why their minds seem to deteriorate over time.
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Post by Black Magic Ritual on May 13, 2022 12:53:57 GMT
I've been meaning to point this out, but I want to take a look at the current Archon in Tevinter, Radonis. He looks very similar to Archon Darinius, the Archon who founded Tevinter, and it's no coincidence that he comes from an ancient bloodline per Josephine. And also, the both vaguely look like the Chantry artwork of Archon Hesserian, the Archon who defeated Andraste. Surely, there must be a connection here to all three?
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Post by gervaise21 on May 13, 2022 19:53:24 GMT
I've been meaning to point this out, but I want to take a look at the current Archon in Tevinter, Radonis. He looks very similar to Archon Darinius, the Archon who founded Tevinter, and it's no coincidence that he comes from an ancient bloodline per Josephine. If you wanted to run with this idea, you might also point out that Radonis is very fond of cats. However, from a genetics point of view, if the Altus have tended to restrict their breeding program to those within their class, then over time it might result in certain similarity in appearance, as each subsequent generation favoured those who were most gifted in magic and had the greatest influence in society. After all, the first Magisterium comprised the priesthood of the seven Old Gods, who in turn claimed descent from the ancient dreamers. Even if there were further Altus who likewise claimed such descent, it stands to reason that they would try to marry into families represented by the Magisterium, thus automatically restricting the gene pool. Since the Archon is separate from the Magisterium and on the whole it is a hereditary role, with the position passed on to other members of their family, even if not direct descendants, it is not beyond the bounds of possibility that Radonis could in fact trace his ancestry back to Darinius because, whilst there have been breaks in direct line descent, no doubt he did have descendants via other branches of his family tree. And also, the both vaguely look like the Chantry artwork of Archon Hesserian, the Archon who defeated Andraste. Surely, there must be a connection here to all three? The same comment applies to Hessarian. There was an Archon, Almadrius, who had no direct descendants and instead tried to pass on the title to his most gifted apprentice, Tidarion, who was of lowborn birth and not even from Tevinter. After his assassination, this resulted in civil war and Archon Tidarion was finally killed as well, after which the Magisters fought over the vacant throne for 20 more years until Pathenius took the throne. He was the former High Priest of Dumat, so I wouldn't be surprised if he traced to the first Archon who was a High Priest of Dumat and that both Hessarian and Radonis may be able to trace back to him.
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Post by sporadicus on May 15, 2022 12:32:29 GMT
You are also right in saying that the Lady of the Skies has an association with the afterlife, that would point to a link with Falon'Din. This is why I say there are a lot of hints in the lore of links between the various pantheons but a lot of contradictions too. Mythal is also associated with death. Merrill says the elven prayer for the dead to invite Mythal to the altar on Sundermount. And Falon'Din, which is above the cave in Stone-Bear Hold, points in the direction of The Lady's Rest. Thus, I think that there is no contradiction in this.
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Post by Black Magic Ritual on May 27, 2022 12:25:04 GMT
I've been flipping through the Bioware 25 Years artbook, and something caught my eye in the Origins section. There's concept art of a Mage Grey Warden I've never seen before - presumably a major character in the story (He looks like a middle aged version of the wrestler Kevin Owens in my eyes) However, there's another concept art that looks very similar and it's someone we already know, but not in the class we expected. That's Right Duncan - and it seems at one point (from the concept art anyway) he was going to be a mage! So presumably, the Concept Art above was what he was intended to look like and would've been a mage. If that were the case, I wonder what the differences in the overall story would've been. However, I also like to point out something else with regard to his staff/stave/whatever you want to call a magic wand. It's the same one that Flemeth had during the events of DA2. It also looks oddly familiar to the head of this strange figure we've seen throughout the DA4 Marketing. Coincidence? I think not!
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Post by gervaise21 on May 27, 2022 13:04:05 GMT
That's Right Duncan - and it seems at one point (from the concept art anyway) he was going to be a mage! I probably wouldn't read too much into that. They probably played around with a lot of ideas for which class Duncan would be, with corresponding concept art, before they arrived at their final decision. Bear in mind that the Arch-demon was originally literally going to be that, a supreme demon, rather than a dragon, which accounts for the origins of this statue, which is similar to a strange image found in World of Thedas p.38/39, presumably also pre-dragon concept art. So occasionally it seems likely that the designers, unwilling to ditch designs they had worked on, just used them randomly when ancient items are required. So does this staff have any relevance to the present? The similarity with the head of the goddess may be just coincidental or reuse of a design. However, with regard to the art by Solas, I found this interesting idea concerning the possible link of the one on the right with the vallaslin of Ghilan'nain. This being the case, if the one on the right is Ghilan'nain, who is the one on the left? Could it be the other goddess who is often linked with her, Andruil? Assuming that strange head/headdress points to her being the goddess shown in the picture with a glowing spear, that would make sense as the hidden writing on Andruil in the ToM makes reference to her constructing a magical spear, presumably out of lyrium (the radiance of the stars) which she intended to use in some great sacrifice. Then consider her vallaslin: There is that strange curved design once again. People have always assumed it is showing a bow but may be it is depicting the head of the goddess, with the arrow head merely being a later addition by the Dalish because they thought it showed a bow, since that is what they associate with Andruil, whereas the ancient elves link her to a spear. In fact, if you join up the lines down the centre of the face, that could even be depicting the goddess holding a spear in front of her. In the actual mural the two figures are shown upside down. What do you suppose Solas means by that? Is it to indicate they are his enemies? Or is it some reference to the fact that they have been corrupted? They are shown above two other characters who were corrupted by the Darkness. Or is it to indicate they were responsible for the Blight? Does he intend using them to achieve his purpose? Do they have any link to the remaining two Old Gods that have not yet arisen? I'm pretty sure Ghilan'nain is going to be involved in some way in DA4; there have been too many references to her and items associated with her in the various stories that have been released. It is just the other god that is less certain.
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Post by colfoley on Jun 8, 2022 2:27:26 GMT
Credit to @azharhal for planting the kernal which has encouraged me to develop this theory.
Now he proposed that the relationship between the Evanuris, the Elves, and the Fade spirits was similar to what we have seen with the Avaar and their gods...the spirits of the Fade. A popular counter theory to this that has already been discussed here is that the Elves are spirits given flesh, like Cole...and there is honestly evidence for both theories and the latter certainly would seem to have some thematic significance.
However it just bothers me in a lot of ways. Kind of a more vague theory I guess and vague simularities to what happened to the MET not withstanding I also think there is a few problems with the lore and the mere fact...I guess bottom line...if the Elves are spirits made flesh...then who were they imitating? Since spirits in the Fade are highly imitative creatures.
This theory does provide a lot of answers if it ends up being true but A. the Elves were their own seperate things and then the spirits of the Fade sensed them and began imitating them which B. led to some of the Elven wisemen deliberatley being possessed by these spirits to help guide their people...much like the Avaar. And C. While this might seem to contradict B I would think that maybe all Elves were possessed at some time or another because Solas mentioned that the Veil sundered the Elves from themselves. Now maybe they were only possessed part of the time like the Avaar were and then those who proved they could handle it long term because the Evanuris...who knows...but this would suggest the reasons why there were different classes of Elves which arose to rule the society.
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Post by gervaise21 on Jun 8, 2022 8:35:03 GMT
if the Elves are spirits made flesh...then who were they imitating? Since spirits in the Fade are highly imitative creatures. You have a point here and I have to admit that has always been the main problem with this theory. The theory did really have its basis in Cole, who seemed to be pointing us in that direction but, unless DG deliberately introduced Cole for that purpose, he was only introduced into the lore quite late on. It is also supported by the fact that Solas says the Evanuris didn't begin as gods but only became them over time, first as leaders, then as kings and finally deities, implying that originally they were the same as everyone else. Also, the fact that all elves were magical to some extent before the Veil or have we just assumed that it was something inherent to them and not acquired by being taught how to link to a spirit of the Fade? There are three other bits of lore that seem to contradict it. First, there is the teaching of Andraste. Much of what was revealed in DAI/Trespasser seemed to contradict her ideas but she definitely had the impression that there were mortals in the world and the spirits of the Fade envied them, until some of them said: "... We have power over heaven. Let us rule over earth as well. And become greater gods than our Father." So the Evanuris were always different from those they ruled over and became involved with mortals with the intent of assuming dominion over them. This could still have been a gradual process, thus fitting with Solas' narrative and in any case he may have adjusted it to suit himself. Second is the war with the titans. The assumption is that it was this war that led to the rise of the Evanuris, although it is possible that the war Solas referred to was another we have yet to learn about. It is not clear exactly what provoked the war with the titans. True the titans became restless, causing the earthquakes and destruction for which the elves sought retribution. When they appealed to Elgar'nan as leader of the Evanuris was this as a god or just as a being of superior power? When the titan stirred in the Descent, it had been disturbed by the magic from the Breach. Was it the advent of the use of magic on the surface of the world by the Evanuris that stirred up the original titans? Or was it the fact that they had already discovered lyrium and were mining it before the conflict and this is what provoked the titans? Lastly, there is the piece about the spirit of learning teaching the elves about how to perform magic safely in the company of elven teachers. This could be interpreted either way. Clearly the spirit is distinct from the elves and yet it says: " Those who never manifested outside the Fade will find it easier to find its stillest roots, but it is rare the compulsion overtakes our brethren of the air." Now these words do confirm that clearly some spirits did manifest outside the Fade at some point and since the spirit refers to them as "our brethren" that it would appear to see kinship between those present and the spirits of the Fade. However, it is possible to interpret the spirit as meaning itself and the various spirits that took on elven form but not necessarily all elves, or the fact that in order to do magic elves did have to join in some way with a spirit of the Fade. This theory does provide a lot of answers if it ends up being true but A. the Elves were their own seperate things and then the spirits of the Fade sensed them and began imitating them which B. led to some of the Elven wisemen deliberatley being possessed by these spirits to help guide their people...much like the Avaar. And C. While this might seem to contradict B I would think that maybe all Elves were possessed at some time or another because Solas mentioned that the Veil sundered the Elves from themselves. Now maybe they were only possessed part of the time like the Avaar were and then those who proved they could handle it long term because the Evanuris...who knows...but this would suggest the reasons why there were different classes of Elves which arose to rule the society. As you say, just as we assume Cole is an indication of what elves once were, it is equally possible the Avvar point to a different interpretation of why the elves were so badly affected by the Veil. What is peculiar is how the majority were affected and yet those, like Solas and Mythal, retained their magical abilities in spite of it. Despite imitating the character of a human mage, Cole doesn't seem to have any real magical ability apart from being able to influence thinking and make people forget, which he loses if you make him more human. Plus we have that apparent contradiction that whilst the elves lost their magic and immortality after the Veil, human mages started appearing and seemed to gain in magical knowledge and power but without the associated immortality. This is a problem with any theory about the origins of the elves. Why did the Veil have such a devastating effect on them but not the humans? Does this have anything to do with the apparent universal amnesia among the races, so the majority of what occurred before the Veil was totally forgotten or only recalled as half remembered legends? What was the relationship between elves, dwarves and humans before the Veil? The latter were definitely around in ancient times; they have even pushed back the timeline in the Keep to their appearance being 1000 years before the Veil, rather than just a few hundred as found in WoT. Avvar legends also seem to hint that they witnessed the creation of the Veil. Did the fact that the majority of elves almost immediately went into retreat account for why the spirits of the Fade transferred their attention to the humans? There does seem to have been a distinction in elven society between the ordinary elves, the Chosen of the Evanuris and the gods themselves. Members of the Chosen could be elevated to godhood, as evidenced by Ghilan'nain, and were then allowed to assume the form of the gods, which would seem to be either a dragon (Elgar'nan and Mythal - the senior Evanuris) or other creature of power, such as a Bear (Dirthamen), Owl (Falon'Din) or Wolf (Solas or whatever his true name is). The Forbidden Ones would seem to be of a similar nature to the Creators because of their ability to shed their form when they deserted from their armies, being banished as a result. The Forbidden Ones would also seem to be similar in nature to the Creators and resented their rule, so getting involved with the rebellion against them but are remembered in legend as opposing gods because they were different from ordinary elves.
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Post by colfoley on Jun 8, 2022 11:02:58 GMT
On this subject how does everyone feel about getting the first two WOT books at this point? While good pieces of memorabeilia at this point given that they are full of contradictory information is it really worth it...or should I wait and hope they do a WOT volume 3 before DAD comes out?
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Post by gervaise21 on Jun 8, 2022 11:15:45 GMT
On this subject how does everyone feel about getting the first two WOT books at this point? While good pieces of memorabeilia at this point given that they are full of contradictory information is it really worth it...or should I wait and hope they do a WOT volume 3 before DAD comes out? May be you can pick them up cheap second hand. I do find it annoying how they keep ignoring lore established in WoT1 (and earlier games), explaining it as an in world unreliable narrator, or the inconsistencies between one entry and another in WoT2 (Dorian was a glaring example of this, plus both entries seemed to contradict what he said to us in game). However, I did find them an enjoyable read. I wouldn't rely on them for informing me going forward into the next game though. I've already stated elsewhere that I am going to approach it as a completely new game lore wise and learn what is going on along with my new PC. That way I won't experience the irritation I did with DAI. As for an additional lore book coming out, I think that is likely to be after DAD rather than before. Then it would be bringing together all the lore established since WoT2 and the backstories to the new characters introduced in the game, just as WoT2 did after DAI. Otherwise there would be a risk of them providing spoilers for DAD.
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Post by azarhal on Jun 8, 2022 12:03:29 GMT
Credit to @azharhal for planting the kernal which has encouraged me to develop this theory. Now he proposed that the relationship between the Evanuris, the Elves, and the Fade spirits was similar to what we have seen with the Avaar and their gods...the spirits of the Fade. A popular counter theory to this that has already been discussed here is that the Elves are spirits given flesh, like Cole...and there is honestly evidence for both theories and the latter certainly would seem to have some thematic significance. However it just bothers me in a lot of ways. Kind of a more vague theory I guess and vague simularities to what happened to the MET not withstanding I also think there is a few problems with the lore and the mere fact...I guess bottom line...if the Elves are spirits made flesh...then who were they imitating? Since spirits in the Fade are highly imitative creatures. This theory does provide a lot of answers if it ends up being true but A. the Elves were their own seperate things and then the spirits of the Fade sensed them and began imitating them which B. led to some of the Elven wisemen deliberatley being possessed by these spirits to help guide their people...much like the Avaar. And C. While this might seem to contradict B I would think that maybe all Elves were possessed at some time or another because Solas mentioned that the Veil sundered the Elves from themselves. Now maybe they were only possessed part of the time like the Avaar were and then those who proved they could handle it long term because the Evanuris...who knows...but this would suggest the reasons why there were different classes of Elves which arose to rule the society. It work with a lots of contradictory info dropped in the games too: - old elvish text talking about mortals before humans showed up while claiming there was only immortal elves around. - The Zathrian's story becomes foreshadowing: his clanmates even says they thought he found the secret of the "old elves". He was bald too. Maybe having a spirit in your body for too long cause the lost of hair... - why Solas doesn't see today elves as his people: they aren't merged/linked to a spirit - Uthenera being elves going to deep sleep sustaining themselves from the Fade, but not all of them being able to keep the body alive for a long time. We can even go further into the rabbit hole: - Sera is from the orphanage in DAO that had a demons/spirits outbreak. It's not that she has hidden magical power, it's that she has a "passenger" - Sebastian's questline in DA2 having an adult who never had magical powers turn into a mage after making a deal with a demon. Again "passenger" is probably the reason. - Cole took over the dead body of the real Cole, he didn't create one... - The Rite of Tranquility was originally created to split someone from their "passenger", it behave differently post-Veil (I have a theory that the Seekers originate from an organization pre-Veil). Another note about the Rite of Tranquility, there is clearly something about Mages and spirits that makes the merging/linking behave differently than for a none-mage. It's possible the distinction was still present pre-Veil as well.
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Post by gervaise21 on Jun 8, 2022 14:18:11 GMT
Sera is from the orphanage in DAO that had a demons/spirits outbreak. It's not that she has hidden magical power, it's that she has a "passenger" Not the craziest idea. It would have been interesting to learn of her early life and what trauma caused her to hate her community as much as she did. The research which Leliana did could only go as far back as that lady merchant she spoke of. They couldn't find a record of anything earlier than that but apparently many records were lost in the Blight during the darkspawn attack on Denerim. The Crows also did some research into the Red Jennies and their contact thought her ability with a bow was unnatural and could not be self taught as Sera maintains but weren't able to establish who her trainer might be. So having been orphaned and then stuck in that orphanage, only to have it overrun by demons, would explain why she is so unnerved by anything to do with magic or spirits. It is then only a short stretch to imagine that she was rescued from death by a benign spirit but is unaware of that; the spirit perhaps sensing that she wouldn't be able to cope with the truth, so erased it from her memory. Sebastian's questline in DA2 having an adult who never had magical powers turn into a mage after making a deal with a demon. Again "passenger" is probably the reason. Lady Harriman was odd but I was never clear if she didn't have magic or had simply kept it hidden. After all, she wouldn't be the first noble to have done that. Gaspard du Pui appears to have gone under the radar of the Templars for years and was even able to fob off Meredith (bribe?) that Emmerick's accusations were unfounded. She even apologised to him for the intrusion. Cole took over the dead body of the real Cole, he didn't create one... Again, the whole business with Cole was odd. At the end of Asunder he told Lambert that the Templars discovered the dead body and then disposed of the evidence out of shame. Clearly some part of this was true because of the encounter with the Templar responsible in his personal quest. However, the whole point was that Cole wanted to be forgotten and then was, so why would the Templars have returned at all? Cole did seem to repudiate a lot of what we had understood about spirits. The whole point of Justice needing a host was that spirits find it hard to exist outside of the Fade without a host body. However, both Cole and Imshael were able to do this. In fact, Imshael seemed to be able to do either. He ripped apart the Dalish clan without the aid of a body but then did a deal to possess Mihris, only to leave her voluntarily when his cover was blown. So I think whether you need a body or not is dependent on the strength of the spirit. Imshael was a Forbidden One, so able to shed and take on form by force of his own will. He did seem to need to be summoned, though, to cross the Veil, unlike Cole who seems to be able to come and go as he pleases. Or is it that he remains invisible on this side of the Veil until he is needed? The Rite of Tranquility was originally created to split someone from their "passenger", it behave differently post-Veil (I have a theory that the Seekers originate from an organization pre-Veil). The Rite of Tranquility is a whole can of worms, particularly after the revelations about the Seekers. I am fairly convinced that the Seeker is carrying a passenger along with them or how do they manifest their powers? Is it really only a matter of a spirit touching your mind and then "poof" you have all these abilities, including some of them being able to do boil the lyrium in the blood of others that is very like what blood mages can do to the blood. It would make sense that if you already have one spirit in charge, it would be far harder for another to possess you without their permission. It is almost like the Seeker rite in fact does the reverse of the rite of tranquility; one joins your mind to a spirit, the other severs you from it. Since they originally discovered what it does to a mage because of a failed ritual to become a Seeker, no doubt thought essential to protect their mind from possession by a demon, perhaps the first part severed them from the spiritual self that gives them their magic and the second part should have connected them to a faith spirit, which would have given them back their magic as well. As the second part failed, they were left cut off from their spirit self. That would explain something of what happened to the elves when the Veil was raised. May be pre-Veil it was a more conscious connection. I'm increasingly beginning to wonder if all elves were able to do magic and it was just contact with the Fade that rendered them immortal. Since the Dalish legends come from the descendants of those who supported the Evanuris, it was likely they were the offspring of the Chosen. Perhaps the whole point of being Chosen was that you were permitted to join with a spirit and thus able to perform magic on behalf of the god. So from their point of view, they were all able to do magic and that is the story that was passed down. To perform major magical rituals required the elves to work in concert with one another. I have wondered how they co-ordinated this. Possible ideas include something about the vallaslin or linking their minds to a foci but it would make sense if they were doing this via their spirit guides. Thinking about this. If the above theory is true, then that would explain what Solas intends to do with all those elves flocking to him. He will team them up with a spirit from the Fade and then they all work together to maintain his ritual. He told us that elven spells often took years to enact. For something as big as he intends he would need a lot of elves and spirits all working together and getting them in harmony with one another might well take years to achieve. This would explain why something he likely began not long after he left the Inquisition is still underway in 9:52.
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Post by azarhal on Jun 8, 2022 15:30:38 GMT
The Rite of Tranquility was originally created to split someone from their "passenger", it behave differently post-Veil (I have a theory that the Seekers originate from an organization pre-Veil). The Rite of Tranquility is a whole can of worms, particularly after the revelations about the Seekers. I am fairly convinced that the Seeker is carrying a passenger along with them or how do they manifest their powers? Is it really only a matter of a spirit touching your mind and then "poof" you have all these abilities, including some of them being able to do boil the lyrium in the blood of others that is very like what blood mages can do to the blood. It would make sense that if you already have one spirit in charge, it would be far harder for another to possess you without their permission. It is almost like the Seeker rite in fact does the reverse of the rite of tranquility; one joins your mind to a spirit, the other severs you from it. Since they originally discovered what it does to a mage because of a failed ritual to become a Seeker, no doubt thought essential to protect their mind from possession by a demon, perhaps the first part severed them from the spiritual self that gives them their magic and the second part should have connected them to a faith spirit, which would have given them back their magic as well. As the second part failed, they were left cut off from their spirit self. Lucius interpreted the information he learned from the Lord Seekers's journal as them becoming abominations via the rituals. Cassandra is in denials over it after the quest, as shown by the Cole/Cassandra banter where Cole says they are the same (he - a spirit - touched a body, she - a body - touched a spirit = same) and she tells him to shut-up. We also know that "bringing a piece -spirit- of the Fade" near a tranquil temporary fix it from DA2, so the piece has to stay for the fix to be permanent. So I think it is accurate: Seekers are carrying the spirit of faith otherwise they would go back to being tranquil/normal. Or they have a permanent connection similar to Zatharian with the Lady of the Forest. But I suspect the Rite is important to the type of connection that is created with the spirit. Since a Seeker isn't like Wynne/Evangeline and their little wisp of faith passenger. Back to abominations, we are told that abominations are demon possessed people where the demon transform them physically when it fully take over. Works for mages, but also normal people since werewolves are humans possessed by hunger demons. That fit with "taking shape" doesn't it? But in the case of an agreed upon cohabitation, the person doesn't turn into a grotesque looking thing. There might be other kind of monsters that are the result of demon possession in the setting too, and the Rite of Tranquility might have been originally created as a way to do exorcism...
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Post by gnoll on Jun 8, 2022 19:02:53 GMT
That would explain something of what happened to the elves when the Veil was raised. May be pre-Veil it was a more conscious connection. I'm increasingly beginning to wonder if all elves were able to do magic and it was just contact with the Fade that rendered them immortal. Since the Dalish legends come from the descendants of those who supported the Evanuris, it was likely they were the offspring of the Chosen. Perhaps the whole point of being Chosen was that you were permitted to join with a spirit and thus able to perform magic on behalf of the god. So from their point of view, they were all able to do magic and that is the story that was passed down. To perform major magical rituals required the elves to work in concert with one another. I have wondered how they co-ordinated this. Possible ideas include something about the vallaslin or linking their minds to a foci but it would make sense if they were doing this via their spirit guides. Thinking about this. If the above theory is true, then that would explain what Solas intends to do with all those elves flocking to him. He will team them up with a spirit from the Fade and then they all work together to maintain his ritual. He told us that elven spells often took years to enact. For something as big as he intends he would need a lot of elves and spirits all working together and getting them in harmony with one another might well take years to achieve. This would explain why something he likely began not long after he left the Inquisition is still underway in 9:52. That's interesting how it works with humans - we know that mages (and only them) trying to bind with twisted spirits, the demons, by blood magic. When we see as Inquisitor, what is going on with Grey Wardens, it's a twisted way of what Solas want to do with elves and that's why he's so angry at the time. Maybe there were some texts about binding with spirits and how elvhen has done it but humans just twisted their ways.
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Post by gervaise21 on Jun 8, 2022 19:51:23 GMT
Maybe there were some texts about binding with spirits and how elvhen has done it but humans just twisted their ways. Well Solas was pretty scathing about Dorian's use of spirits and by extension the rest of Tevinter. Then in his persona of Fen'Harel he attacked a group of Mortalitasi trying to bend spirits to their will and promised the survivor if she ever did it again her life would be forfeit. She did and so he killed her. From what Dorian says about seeing pictures of the ancient Tevinter using foci and the fact that they not only built their cities over elven ruins but also scavenged many artifacts as well, it isn't too much of a stretch to think they copied what they found there, just as the Dalish later did and so had an incomplete picture of what went on. Demons aren't above passing on information either. That is how Andraste claims they came by their knowledge and that also doesn't seem too far fetched. I think the writers have been scattering breadcrumbs for a long time now, giving us small incomplete clues that will eventually lead to a complete revelation. Since Fen'Harel seems to have definitely claimed the Fade as his realm and it seems likely he is now going to come into direct conflict with us as a result, I'm hopeful all will be revealed next game.
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Post by colfoley on Jun 8, 2022 20:31:56 GMT
Credit to @azharhal for planting the kernal which has encouraged me to develop this theory. Now he proposed that the relationship between the Evanuris, the Elves, and the Fade spirits was similar to what we have seen with the Avaar and their gods...the spirits of the Fade. A popular counter theory to this that has already been discussed here is that the Elves are spirits given flesh, like Cole...and there is honestly evidence for both theories and the latter certainly would seem to have some thematic significance. However it just bothers me in a lot of ways. Kind of a more vague theory I guess and vague simularities to what happened to the MET not withstanding I also think there is a few problems with the lore and the mere fact...I guess bottom line...if the Elves are spirits made flesh...then who were they imitating? Since spirits in the Fade are highly imitative creatures. This theory does provide a lot of answers if it ends up being true but A. the Elves were their own seperate things and then the spirits of the Fade sensed them and began imitating them which B. led to some of the Elven wisemen deliberatley being possessed by these spirits to help guide their people...much like the Avaar. And C. While this might seem to contradict B I would think that maybe all Elves were possessed at some time or another because Solas mentioned that the Veil sundered the Elves from themselves. Now maybe they were only possessed part of the time like the Avaar were and then those who proved they could handle it long term because the Evanuris...who knows...but this would suggest the reasons why there were different classes of Elves which arose to rule the society. It work with a lots of contradictory info dropped in the games too: - old elvish text talking about mortals before humans showed up while claiming there was only immortal elves around. - The Zathrian's story becomes foreshadowing: his clanmates even says they thought he found the secret of the "old elves". He was bald too. Maybe having a spirit in your body for too long cause the lost of hair... - why Solas doesn't see today elves as his people: they aren't merged/linked to a spirit - Uthenera being elves going to deep sleep sustaining themselves from the Fade, but not all of them being able to keep the body alive for a long time. We can even go further into the rabbit hole: - Sera is from the orphanage in DAO that had a demons/spirits outbreak. It's not that she has hidden magical power, it's that she has a "passenger" - Sebastian's questline in DA2 having an adult who never had magical powers turn into a mage after making a deal with a demon. Again "passenger" is probably the reason. - Cole took over the dead body of the real Cole, he didn't create one... - The Rite of Tranquility was originally created to split someone from their "passenger", it behave differently post-Veil (I have a theory that the Seekers originate from an organization pre-Veil). Another note about the Rite of Tranquility, there is clearly something about Mages and spirits that makes the merging/linking behave differently than for a none-mage. It's possible the distinction was still present pre-Veil as well. I would be cautious about speculating too much about Sera in particular. While there is something weird there I would take a lot of it at face value since I doubt we will see her again and these mysteries will be further explored. At least she hsa not appeared in any of the post DAI content nor any of the marketing for DAD. Sera is from the orphanage in DAO that had a demons/spirits outbreak. It's not that she has hidden magical power, it's that she has a "passenger" Not the craziest idea. It would have been interesting to learn of her early life and what trauma caused her to hate her community as much as she did. The research which Leliana did could only go as far back as that lady merchant she spoke of. They couldn't find a record of anything earlier than that but apparently many records were lost in the Blight during the darkspawn attack on Denerim. The Crows also did some research into the Red Jennies and their contact thought her ability with a bow was unnatural and could not be self taught as Sera maintains but weren't able to establish who her trainer might be. So having been orphaned and then stuck in that orphanage, only to have it overrun by demons, would explain why she is so unnerved by anything to do with magic or spirits. It is then only a short stretch to imagine that she was rescued from death by a benign spirit but is unaware of that; the spirit perhaps sensing that she wouldn't be able to cope with the truth, so erased it from her memory. Sebastian's questline in DA2 having an adult who never had magical powers turn into a mage after making a deal with a demon. Again "passenger" is probably the reason. Lady Harriman was odd but I was never clear if she didn't have magic or had simply kept it hidden. After all, she wouldn't be the first noble to have done that. Gaspard du Pui appears to have gone under the radar of the Templars for years and was even able to fob off Meredith (bribe?) that Emmerick's accusations were unfounded. She even apologised to him for the intrusion. Cole took over the dead body of the real Cole, he didn't create one... Again, the whole business with Cole was odd. At the end of Asunder he told Lambert that the Templars discovered the dead body and then disposed of the evidence out of shame. Clearly some part of this was true because of the encounter with the Templar responsible in his personal quest. However, the whole point was that Cole wanted to be forgotten and then was, so why would the Templars have returned at all? Cole did seem to repudiate a lot of what we had understood about spirits. The whole point of Justice needing a host was that spirits find it hard to exist outside of the Fade without a host body. However, both Cole and Imshael were able to do this. In fact, Imshael seemed to be able to do either. He ripped apart the Dalish clan without the aid of a body but then did a deal to possess Mihris, only to leave her voluntarily when his cover was blown. So I think whether you need a body or not is dependent on the strength of the spirit. Imshael was a Forbidden One, so able to shed and take on form by force of his own will. He did seem to need to be summoned, though, to cross the Veil, unlike Cole who seems to be able to come and go as he pleases. Or is it that he remains invisible on this side of the Veil until he is needed? The Rite of Tranquility was originally created to split someone from their "passenger", it behave differently post-Veil (I have a theory that the Seekers originate from an organization pre-Veil). The Rite of Tranquility is a whole can of worms, particularly after the revelations about the Seekers. I am fairly convinced that the Seeker is carrying a passenger along with them or how do they manifest their powers? Is it really only a matter of a spirit touching your mind and then "poof" you have all these abilities, including some of them being able to do boil the lyrium in the blood of others that is very like what blood mages can do to the blood. It would make sense that if you already have one spirit in charge, it would be far harder for another to possess you without their permission. It is almost like the Seeker rite in fact does the reverse of the rite of tranquility; one joins your mind to a spirit, the other severs you from it. Since they originally discovered what it does to a mage because of a failed ritual to become a Seeker, no doubt thought essential to protect their mind from possession by a demon, perhaps the first part severed them from the spiritual self that gives them their magic and the second part should have connected them to a faith spirit, which would have given them back their magic as well. As the second part failed, they were left cut off from their spirit self. That would explain something of what happened to the elves when the Veil was raised. May be pre-Veil it was a more conscious connection. I'm increasingly beginning to wonder if all elves were able to do magic and it was just contact with the Fade that rendered them immortal. Since the Dalish legends come from the descendants of those who supported the Evanuris, it was likely they were the offspring of the Chosen. Perhaps the whole point of being Chosen was that you were permitted to join with a spirit and thus able to perform magic on behalf of the god. So from their point of view, they were all able to do magic and that is the story that was passed down. To perform major magical rituals required the elves to work in concert with one another. I have wondered how they co-ordinated this. Possible ideas include something about the vallaslin or linking their minds to a foci but it would make sense if they were doing this via their spirit guides. Thinking about this. If the above theory is true, then that would explain what Solas intends to do with all those elves flocking to him. He will team them up with a spirit from the Fade and then they all work together to maintain his ritual. He told us that elven spells often took years to enact. For something as big as he intends he would need a lot of elves and spirits all working together and getting them in harmony with one another might well take years to achieve. This would explain why something he likely began not long after he left the Inquisition is still underway in 9:52. Perhaps the Templars discovered him on a routine check? Kind of the feeling I got when reading Asunder anyways. As for the rest I do find it likely that you are right about the more powerful the spirit the more they are able to manifest. Afterall this seems to be a quality that all the Forbidden Ones have pretty much been able to achieve on some level or another. Granted the one we saw in DA2 might have only been doing it for a short time but I get the feeling from the codex and information provided by Unbound in Origins that the original Forbidden One we ran into in there was active for quite awhile. Of course this then does beg about fifteen different questions about Mythal because the general assumption is that the Elven Gods have something to do with spirits in the first place. 'Whisp of a powerful being' could of course be the answer and couple what we found out during All New Faded For Her.
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Now stealin' more kidz.
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Post by Buckeldemon on Jun 8, 2022 21:36:54 GMT
The Rite of Tranquility was originally created to split someone from their "passenger", it behave differently post-Veil (I have a theory that the Seekers originate from an organization pre-Veil). The Rite of Tranquility is a whole can of worms, particularly after the revelations about the Seekers. I am fairly convinced that the Seeker is carrying a passenger along with them or how do they manifest their powers? Is it really only a matter of a spirit touching your mind and then "poof" you have all these abilities, including some of them being able to do boil the lyrium in the blood of others that is very like what blood mages can do to the blood. It would make sense that if you already have one spirit in charge, it would be far harder for another to possess you without their permission. It is almost like the Seeker rite in fact does the reverse of the rite of tranquility; one joins your mind to a spirit, the other severs you from it. Since they originally discovered what it does to a mage because of a failed ritual to become a Seeker, no doubt thought essential to protect their mind from possession by a demon, perhaps the first part severed them from the spiritual self that gives them their magic and the second part should have connected them to a faith spirit, which would have given them back their magic as well. As the second part failed, they were left cut off from their spirit self. That would explain something of what happened to the elves when the Veil was raised. May be pre-Veil it was a more conscious connection. I'm increasingly beginning to wonder if all elves were able to do magic and it was just contact with the Fade that rendered them immortal. Since the Dalish legends come from the descendants of those who supported the Evanuris, it was likely they were the offspring of the Chosen. Perhaps the whole point of being Chosen was that you were permitted to join with a spirit and thus able to perform magic on behalf of the god. So from their point of view, they were all able to do magic and that is the story that was passed down. To perform major magical rituals required the elves to work in concert with one another. I have wondered how they co-ordinated this. Possible ideas include something about the vallaslin or linking their minds to a foci but it would make sense if they were doing this via their spirit guides. Thinking about this. If the above theory is true, then that would explain what Solas intends to do with all those elves flocking to him. He will team them up with a spirit from the Fade and then they all work together to maintain his ritual. He told us that elven spells often took years to enact. For something as big as he intends he would need a lot of elves and spirits all working together and getting them in harmony with one another might well take years to achieve. This would explain why something he likely began not long after he left the Inquisition is still underway in 9:52. The Rite of Tranquility is a whole can of worms, particularly after the revelations about the Seekers. I am fairly convinced that the Seeker is carrying a passenger along with them or how do they manifest their powers? Is it really only a matter of a spirit touching your mind and then "poof" you have all these abilities, including some of them being able to do boil the lyrium in the blood of others that is very like what blood mages can do to the blood. It would make sense that if you already have one spirit in charge, it would be far harder for another to possess you without their permission. It is almost like the Seeker rite in fact does the reverse of the rite of tranquility; one joins your mind to a spirit, the other severs you from it. Since they originally discovered what it does to a mage because of a failed ritual to become a Seeker, no doubt thought essential to protect their mind from possession by a demon, perhaps the first part severed them from the spiritual self that gives them their magic and the second part should have connected them to a faith spirit, which would have given them back their magic as well. As the second part failed, they were left cut off from their spirit self. Lucius interpreted the information he learned from the Lord Seekers's journal as them becoming abominations via the rituals. Cassandra is in denials over it after the quest, as shown by the Cole/Cassandra banter where Cole says they are the same (he - a spirit - touched a body, she - a body - touched a spirit = same) and she tells him to shut-up. We also know that "bringing a piece -spirit- of the Fade" near a tranquil temporary fix it from DA2, so the piece has to stay for the fix to be permanent. So I think it is accurate: Seekers are carrying the spirit of faith otherwise they would go back to being tranquil/normal. Or they have a permanent connection similar to Zatharian with the Lady of the Forest. But I suspect the Rite is important to the type of connection that is created with the spirit. Since a Seeker isn't like Wynne/Evangeline and their little wisp of faith passenger. Back to abominations, we are told that abominations are demon possessed people where the demon transform them physically when it fully take over. Works for mages, but also normal people since werewolves are humans possessed by hunger demons. That fit with "taking shape" doesn't it? But in the case of an agreed upon cohabitation, the person doesn't turn into a grotesque looking thing. There might be other kind of monsters that are the result of demon possession in the setting too, and the Rite of Tranquility might have been originally created as a way to do exorcism... *starts swopping session* I personally thought that seekers have at least a permanent spirit companion, even if it resides in the fade, it is still connected. As opposed to seeker powers just plopping into existence and then staying regardless. Heck, if the procedure would work like that, a lot of people could essentially be turned into mages of sorts. And the "Seeker rituals" main focus being essentially to deprive the person in question of all other emotions/thoughts beside the one embodied by the spirit which one wants to attract.
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Post by gervaise21 on Jun 9, 2022 7:30:14 GMT
There might be other kind of monsters that are the result of demon possession in the setting too, and the Rite of Tranquility might have been originally created as a way to do exorcism... It is possible it was used for this purpose but I think it more likely that initially it was simply a way of removing a mage's ability to do magic and rendering them "harmless". It was clear the old Seekers originally saw the potential for this, which is why Ameridan says they promised him it would never be used for that purpose. However, it may be that originally it was a case of using the rite to protect them from possession and that is how it was sold to mages generally. Naturally, they would agree to this because who wants to be vulnerable to every passing demon? It is repeatedly emphasised in the novels that every time a mage taps into the Fade they feel the spirits on the other side reaching out for their mind and have to consciously resist this. How much easier if you no longer have to worry about this? So the Rite started with the intent of joining them with a spirit but it gradually became clear that it was more likely to fail than not. Could this be because they were already joined with a spirit at a subconscious level, which is why they had magical ability, and it was imprinting by this spirit, which deterred the faith spirit? In other words, even though the Rite had severed the connection, there was still some sort of marker there saying "mine". When the Seekers handed over the process to the Templars, they missed out the bit about attracting a faith spirit, because they didn't want to reveal the source of their power, so the Rite simply became a way of stripping the mage of the ability to connect with the Fade. We shouldn't forget that up in Tevinter they purely use it as a punishment. I wonder if they came up with the process independently of the southern Chantry? Other oddities about the ritual. Why does lyrium severe the connection with the Fade when lyrium is also used to boost a mage's mana and thus their connection with the Fade? How does the ritual work with Seekers since they are not given a lyrium brand? Clearly some other magic must be involved that temporarily blocks their contact with the Fade; some sort of lyrium amulet or headband perhaps? Cassandra seemed to think it was simply her own force of will that emptied her of emotion during her meditative state. This would be in keeping with real world mystics but doesn't explain why a spirit of faith would be attracted to this if being tranquil makes you invisible to spirits. Something I've also asked in the past is why a spirit would only be attracted to a person with faith in the Maker? If it is the strength of faith that is the important factor then surely belief in any god would suffice? The Avvar way of training their young mages would actually seem to confirm this. Since they regard all spirits as their "gods" then presumably there are specific spirits that they attract to train the child. Presumably these are either faith spirits because of the belief in the gods generally or wisdom spirits because of the desire for knowledge. Then once the period of training has been completed, they use a specific ritual to severe the connection. Or does it entirely go away? It also seems increasingly likely that Andraste was a mage, as Tevinter maintain. Since the Avvar were an offshoot of the Alamarri, it seems likely that their religious practices were rooted in the ancient barbarians of that region and the lowlanders continued to practice after their break up. Andraste had been appealing to the gods generally for help against the Imperium but it was the Maker who answered her. I've also always thought that the reason the Imperium burnt her wasn't just to make her suffer but also so there wouldn't be a body left for a spirit to revive. After all, they knew about such things.
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Post by gervaise21 on Jun 9, 2022 8:01:06 GMT
Of course this then does beg about fifteen different questions about Mythal because the general assumption is that the Elven Gods have something to do with spirits in the first place. 'Whisp of a powerful being' could of course be the answer and couple what we found out during All New Faded For Her. I thought it was pertinent that Flemeth referred to Mythal as the wisp of an ancient being rather than an ancient elf. The fact that Mythal was happy to cohabit with a different race seems to suggest that she is not attached to the elven identity, even though she does seem to take an interest in the Dalish. I've often wondered if it was those elves keeping the memory of Mythal alive that allowed her to retain her semblance of self. The Avvar lore about reincarnation would seem to suggest this. Which is why Mythal didn't simply return to her base identity of an idea, as Solas' friend did. A few other thoughts about the nature of elves. When talking with Solas after the Wicked Eyes quest, as a Lavellan you can say something to him along the lines of at least Briala is helping our people and for a moment Solas appears confused, before the penny drops and he says: "Oh, you mean the elves." This always seemed odd and I was thinking "of course, who did you think I meant?" but we aren't allowed to quiz him further on this. Abelas recognses Solas as the same sort of being as himself but not Lavellan or Sera. He outright says to Lavellan "You are not my people" and that the Dalish are merely "shadows wearing vallaslin". So clearly the modern elves are missing something. Is it their spirit self that is absent? Solas says something similar in Trespasser. "I took everything from the elves, even themselves." Yet according to Corypheus they do have a connection with the Fade in their blood that is absent from other races. That is why elves have always been favoured in blood magic rituals. According to Calpernia's short story this would also seem to be true of mages. The threat hung over her as a slave that if she didn't behave herself then she would be given to the Circles for magical experimentation because her blood was different from normal slaves. It is this aspect of different blood in elves and mages that made me wonder if the reason blood magic suddenly started to appear among humans after the Veil is that some elves didn't go into retreat but instead intermarried with the humans. They also passed on their magical knowledge at the same time. I'm pretty sure it was stated in a codex somewhere that some scholars claim it was the elves who taught humans blood magic, not demons of the Fade. May be it was a bit of both. This is why Tevinter magical traditions seem so markedly different from those of the Rivaini and Avvar, although even they may have had their origins in elven intermarriage. It is just that those elves passed on a different tradition. The difference between the followers of the Evanuris and the followers of Fen'Harel perhaps? Somehow or other a lament by the followers of Fen'Harel wound up in an Alamarri war poem and a later Ferelden lullaby. How could this be if their hadn't been some sort of co-existence in ancient times? This could also account for the followers of the Evanuris attributing their rebellious behaviour to being corrupted by contact with humans.
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Post by gnoll on Jun 9, 2022 10:29:30 GMT
As you said, Abelas and Solas are the same and as we see their names had meaning - Sorrow and Pride (well, just like demons). Maybe that's the spirit they have attracted or the spirits they were, their true nature which Lavellan and Sera don't know.
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Post by gervaise21 on Jun 9, 2022 14:37:55 GMT
As you said, Abelas and Solas are the same and as we see their names had meaning - Sorrow and Pride (well, just like demons). Maybe that's the spirit they have attracted or the spirits they were, their true nature which Lavellan and Sera don't know. There is a curious thing that Solas says in Tevinter Nights when he is in disguise and the group are discussing their interest in Fen'Harel, the Inquisition's wolf. Charter says that Solas denied he is a god and continues: "He is merely a very old, very powerful elven mage." To which Solas (in disguise) responds: "Or possiblement a very young mage. He could be a simple elf who stumbled onto old magic." Now why would he advance that idea? After all, he is meant to be a Bard so would have no real knowledge of magic that would make him doubt her declaration. Charter's statement does not really threaten him and on the face of it only states what Solas said to the Inquisitor. Yet he chooses to challenge the notion. Since he allows Charter to live, he knows his words will be reported to the Inquisitor. So does he want them to consider him differently? Or does he imagine the words will be ignored as just part of his disguise? Then there is Rasaan, who is convinced that Solas is not his true name and seems intent on finding out what it is. The Qunari do hold a great deal of significance in names. Strangely enough they do have a similar culture to the elves in that respect; your name reflects your role or status in society. If you change your role, you change your name. In the ancient writing, Abelas says he changed his name on entering Mythal's service and then changed it again on her death. Solas says to him that he hopes he will find a new name on leaving the temple. So it may take a fair bit of tracing back in someone's history to discover their original name. Is their original name also their true name? Or is the true name the one that most embodies their core identity? Is Rasaan's interest in his true name merely a reflection of Qunari culture or does she know more about the ancient elves? I've suggested before that may be Koslun was a follower of Fen'Harel from ancient times, or his thinking was influence by Solas through the Fade. I wonder if the reason he so hates the Qun is what the later priesthood did with Koslun's teaching, which was meant to lead to a fairer, more equal society and yet ultimately became just another way of enslaving the masses, with freedom of thought punished by re-education or, even worse, a dose of qamek and mages treated worst of all. Kieran said that something was done to their race for which he was sorry when talking to a vashoth Inquisitor. Was that before or after they became the kossith? Who did it?
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Post by Absafraginlootly on Jun 12, 2022 2:40:38 GMT
So occasionally it seems likely that the designers, unwilling to ditch designs they had worked on, just used them randomly when ancient items are required. So does this staff have any relevance to the present? The similarity with the head of the goddess may be just coincidental or reuse of a design. However, with regard to the art by Solas, I found this interesting idea concerning the possible link of the one on the right with the vallaslin of Ghilan'nain. That's Dirthamen's vallaslin. dragonage.fandom.com/wiki/VallaslinGhilan'nain's vallaslin looks closer to the being on the left upside down.
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Post by Absafraginlootly on Jun 12, 2022 2:56:02 GMT
Solas said he never guessed that an ancient Magister would have worked out the secret of effective immortality but it is unclear what exactly that secret is. For Flemeth it seemed to be putting a piece of herself in an object; for Corypheus we were told it was sharing his soul with the dragon. We can leave Flemeth alive in DAO so what happened to her then? Did her body dissolve in one location so she can reappear on Sundermount? Did Corypheus sharing his soul with the dragon mean he could share consciousness with it as well? So when the dragon accompanied Erimond, was that actually Corypheus controlling its actions? Since flemythal made a copy of herself in da2 I have wondered whether multiple versions of her could be running around Thedas (possibly even after what Solas did at the end of DAI) And I also wonder if the reason Solas was able to trap both the Evanuris and the Forgotten Ones supposedly separately, while escaping himself, is because he made copies of himself to lure each group to their prison while the original finished the veil. Perhaps those copies are the "leg" he gnawed off? Perhaps he became weaker for splitting his power up like that? Perhaps the wolf he faces off with in the dread wolf Rises mural is his copy/spilt off portion. I love this idea. I was disappointed we didn't get to talk to Corypheus while he was disguised as a warden, seemed like a wasted opportunity.
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Post by Absafraginlootly on Jun 12, 2022 3:15:53 GMT
The Rite of Tranquility is a whole can of worms, particularly after the revelations about the Seekers. I am fairly convinced that the Seeker is carrying a passenger along with them or how do they manifest their powers? Is it really only a matter of a spirit touching your mind and then "poof" you have all these abilities, including some of them being able to do boil the lyrium in the blood of others that is very like what blood mages can do to the blood. It would make sense that if you already have one spirit in charge, it would be far harder for another to possess you without their permission. It is almost like the Seeker rite in fact does the reverse of the rite of tranquility; one joins your mind to a spirit, the other severs you from it. Since they originally discovered what it does to a mage because of a failed ritual to become a Seeker, no doubt thought essential to protect their mind from possession by a demon, perhaps the first part severed them from the spiritual self that gives them their magic and the second part should have connected them to a faith spirit, which would have given them back their magic as well. As the second part failed, they were left cut off from their spirit self.
That would explain something of what happened to the elves when the Veil was raised. May be pre-Veil it was a more conscious connection. I'm increasingly beginning to wonder if all elves were able to do magic and it was just contact with the Fade that rendered them immortal. Since the Dalish legends come from the descendants of those who supported the Evanuris, it was likely they were the offspring of the Chosen. Perhaps the whole point of being Chosen was that you were permitted to join with a spirit and thus able to perform magic on behalf of the god. So from their point of view, they were all able to do magic and that is the story that was passed down. To perform major magical rituals required the elves to work in concert with one another. I have wondered how they co-ordinated this. Possible ideas include something about the vallaslin or linking their minds to a foci but it would make sense if they were doing this via their spirit guides.
Thinking about this. If the above theory is true, then that would explain what Solas intends to do with all those elves flocking to him. He will team them up with a spirit from the Fade and then they all work together to maintain his ritual. He told us that elven spells often took years to enact. For something as big as he intends he would need a lot of elves and spirits all working together and getting them in harmony with one another might well take years to achieve. This would explain why something he likely began not long after he left the Inquisition is still underway in 9:52. Lucius interpreted the information he learned from the Lord Seekers's journal as them becoming abominations via the rituals. Cassandra is in denials over it after the quest, as shown by the Cole/Cassandra banter where Cole says they are the same (he - a spirit - touched a body, she - a body - touched a spirit = same) and she tells him to shut-up. We also know that "bringing a piece -spirit- of the Fade" near a tranquil temporary fix it from DA2, so the piece has to stay for the fix to be permanent.
So I think it is accurate: Seekers are carrying the spirit of faith otherwise they would go back to being tranquil/normal. Or they have a permanent connection similar to Zatharian with the Lady of the Forest. But I suspect the Rite is important to the type of connection that is created with the spirit. Since a Seeker isn't like Wynne/Evangeline and their little wisp of faith passenger.
Back to abominations, we are told that abominations are demon possessed people where the demon transform them physically when it fully take over. Works for mages, but also normal people since werewolves are humans possessed by hunger demons. That fit with "taking shape" doesn't it? But in the case of an agreed upon cohabitation, the person doesn't turn into a grotesque looking thing. There might be other kind of monsters that are the result of demon possession in the setting too, and the Rite of Tranquility might have been originally created as a way to do exorcism...
*starts swopping session* I personally thought that seekers have at least a permanent spirit companion, even if it resides in the fade, it is still connected. As opposed to seeker powers just plopping into existence and then staying regardless. Heck, if the procedure would work like that, a lot of people could essentially be turned into mages of sorts. And the "Seeker rituals" main focus being essentially to deprive the person in question of all other emotions/thoughts beside the one embodied by the spirit which one wants to attract. More and more I've come to believe that Seekers are just a type of Spirit Warrior. That they do their ritual to attract a spirit of faith who grants then powers and protection from possession. (Even if they don't realise that's what their vigil is for) Spirit Warrior's description: Sounds like basically the same thing as a seeker but with probably different rituals to attract spirits like justice or faith, and without the Templars persecuting them for it. What with them not knowing where seekers powers come from (not that the Templars are above the hypocrisy if they had known, see: phylactories).
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Post by xerrai on Jun 12, 2022 6:04:15 GMT
*starts swopping session* I personally thought that seekers have at least a permanent spirit companion, even if it resides in the fade, it is still connected. As opposed to seeker powers just plopping into existence and then staying regardless. Heck, if the procedure would work like that, a lot of people could essentially be turned into mages of sorts. And the "Seeker rituals" main focus being essentially to deprive the person in question of all other emotions/thoughts beside the one embodied by the spirit which one wants to attract. More and more I've come to believe that Seekers are just a type of Spirit Warrior. That they do their ritual to attract a spirit of faith who grants then powers and protection from possession. (Even if they don't realise that's what their vigil is for) Spirit Warrior's description: Sounds like basically the same thing as a seeker but with probably different rituals to attract spirits like justice or faith, and without the Templars persecuting them for it. What with them not knowing where seekers powers come from (not that the Templars are above the hypocrisy if they had known, see: phylactories). I more or less thought the same thing when I first made the connection. Makes you wonder if the Seeker tradition was adopted from the traditions of Andraste's barbarian clan. After all, it would make sense for the first formal Seekers to adopt something that came from their prophet's culture, no? Heck, maybe Andraste was a Seeker/Spirit Warrior herself, and thus would explain the blur between warrior and mage that we see in some of her depictions.
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