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Post by gervaise21 on Oct 11, 2022 9:52:13 GMT
Or the Sea of Dreams, in other words the Fade. If Mythal was not a water spirit, then I think she has strong associations with the Lady of the Skies and thus a powerful spirit of the Fade that manifested as a result of the battle. Since Mythal was later known as the Adjudicator and dispenser of Justice in disputes, likely this conflict did cause such a spirit to come forth in order to stop the destruction. I think lyrium was the blood shed by the Sun during the battle, suggesting the Sun was in fact a Titan, although it could also mean the Great Spirit responsible for Creation. Curiously, enough the Chantry teach that lyrium is the essence of all creation, left around as residue after the world was created by the Maker and even call the sound it makes the voice of the Maker. It would be true that Elgar'nan was the firstborn of this spirit of the Fade and the earth from which he obtained his body.
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Post by dayze on Oct 11, 2022 17:59:08 GMT
Something to throw in here; notice how the Dread Wolf's head kind of looks like its coming down and making an impact on the city?
Almost like a meteor or something?
Maybe Solas is planning on bringing the sun down again?
Possibilities for bringing down the sun, a meteor burning in re-entry......a powerful spirit of faith or otherkind, they do tend to glow. Using an orb as an attack weapon.
Solas opens up a hole in the fade and uses some of it's energies to perform Death from above via mystical blast?
Andruil's spear might hint towards pulling down the sun as being some kind of energy/mystical laser beam attack.
Perhaps the least interesting variation might be simply doing what Corypheus did, opening up holes in the fade, creating a giant hole in the sky and letting out tons of demons.
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Post by dayze on Oct 11, 2022 18:02:48 GMT
I do believe that was how elves first came to be. Fade (Mind) + Titan (Body) = Sentient beings. I agree. Sun [forgotten ones (spirits)] + Earth [Titan (lyriumbody)] = Elgar'nan first born. Mythal walked out of the sea (lyrium). Maybe; though the Darkspawn might throw a kink in that theory. Qunari are thought to be part Dragon, Dragon's have the "blood of the earth" and they go to gigantic purportions when blighted. As of DA2 Genlock's who come from Dwarves that are probably from Titans and are "children of the earth" also grow to gigantic purportions......at least related to their original sizes. Elves while they do seem to be bigger seem to suffer greater negative effects like how the Hurlocks are supposed to be strong but are clearly suffering from some kind of disease of some kind. Less natural to their being than it seems to be than the Qunari and Dwarves.
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Post by gervaise21 on Oct 11, 2022 19:58:28 GMT
Qunari are thought to be part Dragon, Dragon's have the "blood of the earth" and they go to gigantic purportions when blighted. As of DA2 Genlock's who come from Dwarves that are probably from Titans and are "children of the earth" also grow to gigantic purportions......at least related to their original sizes. Elves while they do seem to be bigger seem to suffer greater negative effects like how the Hurlocks are supposed to be strong but are clearly suffering from some kind of disease of some kind. You have highlighted a feature of the blight here. Actually, the elves don't seem to suffer negative effects compared with the others because the attribute it enhances with Shrieks is speed as much as strength. Note a feature of red lyrium when given to the Red Templars is that it enhances their strength at the same time as reducing their humanity. It is the fact that the blight seems to increase the power of the target race that makes me think it was originally the result of one of the Evanuris, probably Ghilan'nain, conducting experiments to create ultra-warriors at some stage subsequent to her original experiments creating creatures for Anduril to hunt.
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Post by gervaise21 on Oct 11, 2022 20:05:41 GMT
Solas opens up a hole in the fade and uses some of it's energies to perform Death from above via mystical blast? Well one of his specialist magic attacks concerned meteor-like objects that presumably were conjured from the Fade. However, I would once again remind you of the first 2013 trailer for DAI, called "The Fires Above". Lots of fire raining from the sky in that and the Fade was ripped open from side to side, not just a hole punched in it. Morrigan says something about none being untouched by the fires above and asking if our hero is going to "stand against the darkness or lead this world to its bitter end?" I don't feel that anything in the game really matched what that promised but David Gaider always maintained we had only seen half the story, so this could be what Solas has planned (or rather what happens when his plan goes wrong). Also concept art does show floating landscapes very similar to what happens when Corypheus punched a hole in the Fade at the end of DAI, so presumably something like that is going to happen, even if it is only in a localised area, like the Arlathan Forest.
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Post by fairdragon on Oct 12, 2022 9:04:47 GMT
Cole in Trespasser: "They made bodies from the earth and the earth was afraid. It fought back, but they made it forget." As i think Cole said important things. This sentence says it quite clearly that the Titans are associated with the earth. @ gervaise21 If the earth is associated with the Titans, you think the sun is too. So earth and Sun are two Titans?
And i think "Lady of the Skies" got her name from the flying city. Where she lived in. Does spirit of the fade have to manifested themself before the veil?
Mythal is definitve a powerful spirit, but her body is something different i guess.
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Post by dayze on Oct 12, 2022 13:18:40 GMT
Cole in Trespasser: "They made bodies from the earth and the earth was afraid. It fought back, but they made it forget." As i think Cole said important things. This sentence says it quite clearly that the Titans are associated with the earth. @ gervaise21 If the earth is associated with the Titans, you think the sun is too. So earth and Sun are two Titans?
And i think "Lady of the Skies" got her name from the flying city. Where she lived in. Does spirit of the fade have to manifested themself before the veil?
Mythal is definitve a powerful spirit, but her body is something different i guess.
Sounds similar to what they say about I think Cole said about Elgar'nan wasn't it? Something about making him forget so he could be something else? Lady of the Skies:Could be Flemeth, though Dirthaman has a bird form and is associated with Ravens. I suppose it's also possible the Fade itself might be "The Lady of the Skies".....maybe it is in essence one giant spirit and all the other spirits are effectively her children. Though Morrigan might be Dirthaman, she's running around trying to collect ancient knowledge of the elves, involved in some kind of plot that she doesn't elaborate on, kind of like she is trying to "keep secrets".....power hungry but that's kind of what keeping secrets and gaining knowledge is about..... In Myth Morrigan was also associated with Ravens. What if Flemeth wasn't trying to create a new body for herself but was trying to create a new body for another of the Old Gods? Crazy Theory About Elves:The dalish tattoo's or the "blood writing" is what gave them their mystical abilities, it's referred to as "blood writing", Lyrium is called "blood of the earth" somewhere I believe, Fenris tattoo gives him arcane abilities. In the past when they were done properly each tattoo much like Ash Warrior body paint could do different focus/abilities for them. Solas is wrong about the blood ink, he looked at it as Slavery because he looked at it through the lens of Pride......the Elves might have looked at it as being dedicated to something "Greater" than themselves, something Solas as a Pride spirit would find almost offensive. Crazy Theory About Demons/Spirits:
They are basically the same thing, out there I know....., but I mean take Ishmael, refers to itself as a "Spirit of Choice", sure assumes the forms of demons but it also assumes the form of a human. To Ishmael it's just another aspect of shape changing. The big difference between Demons and Spirits seems to be Spirits are focused on specific activities or ideals and demons seem to be focused on more everyday human emotions/joining with them. Also look at Valor; he challenges you to a fight in the harrowing and says if you lose he will slay you. Interacting with Spirits doesn't seem much safer than Demons, just more straight forward. Could be part of the journey towards complexity ala Cole, starting out Spirits glow brightly like Wisps do but Demons don't. So it could be essentially Wisp-->Spirit-->Demon-->Mortal. I'm not totally sure on where to put "Ghosts" in that journey.....or really I guess that spirits are floating rocks, statues and buildings in the fade?
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Post by gervaise21 on Oct 13, 2022 9:49:10 GMT
In Myth Morrigan was also associated with Ravens. I must admit I did enjoy it when she finally turned into a raven because that is what the Morrigan of Irish myth does. In the Book of Conquests by Jim Fitzpatrick, which is based on the old myths of Ireland, she is also described as a "war witch blessed with beauty", which pretty much sums up Thedas Morrigan. In the book, Morrigan is also able to give visions of the past and future via dreams, which fits with Flemeth and, of course, she intended Morrigan to be the inheritor of her powers, so maybe Morrigan may pop up in our next hero's dreams. The dalish tattoo's or the "blood writing" is what gave them their mystical abilities, it's referred to as "blood writing", Lyrium is called "blood of the earth" somewhere I believe, Fenris tattoo gives him arcane abilities. I do think that the vallaslin in ancient times was probably associated with the rituals they performed in order to achieve major feats of magic that required many participants to work in concert. If they had originally been lyrium rather than real blood, that would account for the magical bond that formed between participants. Whilst the comic series Blue Wraith explained the mechanism by which Danarius marked Fenris, it still didn't explain where he got his ideas from or the sarcophagus for that matter. Either he found it or constructed it from diagrams that he found somewhere but I'm fairly certain the idea wasn't unique to Danarius and since we know that Tevinter acquired a lot of elven artefacts in ancient times that they re-purposed as their own, this was likely another of them. Solas calls them slave markings but then he probably regarded anyone who willingly served the Evanuris as no more than a slave to their will. It was clear from the memories of Abelas that he had a life prior to entering the service of Mythal, under a different name, changed it on entering her service (apparently of his own free will) and then changed it again on her death. Let's face it, if the Inquisitor drinks from the Well of Sorrows, no one forces them to do this, so even if they are now bound to the will of Mythal, it was their choice. I am sure that privately Solas now regards them as a slave of Mythal. I've also pointed out previously how being marked in that way probably also brings the individual under the protection of that god, so the other gods would know to leave them alone and if they had a problem with their behaviour, they would take it up with their patron. Could be part of the journey towards complexity ala Cole, starting out Spirits glow brightly like Wisps do but Demons don't. So it could be essentially Wisp-->Spirit-->Demon-->Mortal. All I know is that Cole is very unhappy if the Inquisitor chooses the Necromancy specialism because of the damage it can do to the spirits used, even if they are only wisps. This latter point seemed to be why Solas was pretty chilled about it because you are only using wisps. Yet, Flemeth says that when Mythal first came to her she was the "wisp of an ancient being" and I'm pretty sure that is what Solas' friends became when they returned to the Fade, so it does seem odd that he would have had no objection to Necromancy. I think PW realised this after the game came out and that is why in Tevinter Nights he has Solas/Fen'Harel be angry not only with the Mortalitasi involved in the blood ritual but even the one recounting the story, who is using a wisp spirit to perform menial tasks for her. Or maybe he has just hardened his outlook as a result of reverting to his original plan for removing the Veil.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Oct 13, 2022 10:18:37 GMT
All I know is that Cole is very unhappy if the Inquisitor chooses the Necromancy specialism because of the damage it can do to the spirits used, even if they are only wisps. This latter point seemed to be why Solas was pretty chilled about it because you are only using wisps. Yet, Flemeth says that when Mythal first came to her she was the "wisp of an ancient being" and I'm pretty sure that is what Solas' friends became when they returned to the Fade, so it does seem odd that he would have had no objection to Necromancy. I think PW realised this after the game came out and that is why in Tevinter Nights he has Solas/Fen'Harel be angry not only with the Mortalitasi involved in the blood ritual but even the one recounting the story, who is using a wisp spirit to perform menial tasks for her. Or maybe he has just hardened his outlook as a result of reverting to his original plan for removing the Veil. Most likely he was merely lying to the Inquisitor about his feelings on the matter because he still needed them.
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Post by Iddy on Oct 13, 2022 13:29:24 GMT
Solas calls them slave markings but then he probably regarded anyone who willingly served the Evanuris as no more than a slave to their will. It was clear from the memories of Abelas that he had a life prior to entering the service of Mythal, under a different name, changed it on entering her service (apparently of his own free will) and then changed it again on her death. Let's face it, if the Inquisitor drinks from the Well of Sorrows, no one forces them to do this, so even if they are now bound to the will of Mythal, it was their choice. I am sure that privately Solas now regards them as a slave of Mythal. I've also pointed out previously how being marked in that way probably also brings the individual under the protection of that god, so the other gods would know to leave them alone and if they had a problem with their behaviour, they would take it up with their patron. With that said, what is your general opinion on drinking from the Well of Sorrows?
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Post by gervaise21 on Oct 13, 2022 14:43:42 GMT
With that said, what is your general opinion on drinking from the Well of Sorrows? That entirely depends on the information available to you, although I have to agree with Sera that the name itself is ominous and should give anyone pause. My first ever run I was playing as an elven mage. She had taken the arcane knowledge perk so was able to work out about the geas for herself. She also had both Solas and Cole with her. Now the former gave mixed messages. He didn't seem keen to drink himself, which was an immediate red flag, but also seemed against Morrigan drinking, which did seem to point towards the Inquisitor doing so. However, Cole clinched the argument for me when he said I wouldn't want all those voices in my head, which sounded very dubious and make it seem like a form of possession, which to be honest I think it is. So, I decided it would be unwise to drink even with all that potential knowledge dangled before me. I still think this is the best decision for the Inquisitor. Of course, if you have a different set of companions, their advice can be different and it can seem more in the balance if you don't have the arcane knowledge to inform you about the geas. However, I still think on balance that the potential gains are outweighed by the possible danger. What if drinking it proved fatal? What if the geas made you incapable of fighting against Corypheus? What if you could no longer close the rifts because the spirits prevented you? As you are the only person capable of doing the latter, it seemed too bit a risk to take when there was another option available. As it turned out, it did mean you were controlled by Flemeth/Mythal and even if your aims coincided with hers with respect to Corypheus, what of the future? Whilst Morrigan might ultimately use the information against you, at least you would have freedom of action against her. From a hindsight point of view, I also question just how useful the knowledge you acquired was, particularly the information you do not get from Morrigan, such as reading the codices and the password in Fen'Harel's sanctuary. I do wonder if that is going to be the sum total of the impact of the Well going forward, particularly as the Inquisitor is not the protagonist next game. So, on the whole I am happy that the majority of my Inquisitors chose not to drink.* *If it does turn out to be significant then I shall go back and change the entry in the Keep for my second run, so I can experience both versions. In fact, I did this with Trespasser for that very reason.
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Post by xerrai on Oct 15, 2022 19:10:19 GMT
All I know is that Cole is very unhappy if the Inquisitor chooses the Necromancy specialism because of the damage it can do to the spirits used, even if they are only wisps. This latter point seemed to be why Solas was pretty chilled about it because you are only using wisps. Yet, Flemeth says that when Mythal first came to her she was the "wisp of an ancient being" and I'm pretty sure that is what Solas' friends became when they returned to the Fade, so it does seem odd that he would have had no objection to Necromancy. I think PW realised this after the game came out and that is why in Tevinter Nights he has Solas/Fen'Harel be angry not only with the Mortalitasi involved in the blood ritual but even the one recounting the story, who is using a wisp spirit to perform menial tasks for her. Or maybe he has just hardened his outlook as a result of reverting to his original plan for removing the Veil. Most likely he was merely lying to the Inquisitor about his feelings on the matter because he still needed them. Maybe. But then again it is not like Solas is bending over backwards to stay in the Inquisitor's good graces. He never bothers to hide his disdain of certain things and is even willing to confront the Inquisitor at Skyhold if his disposition is low enough (and like certain other companions, you don't have the option to kick him out). In fact, like the other mandatory companions, it is clear he is staying for a personal goal and doesn't require the Inquisitor's preference or power at all. They (Cassandra, Varric, Solas) are just staying for the Inquisition itself and the benefits they can bring. Highlighting this is the "Request for Resources on the Fade" codex, which confirms that Solas has already ingrained himself as a "noted partner of the Inquisition" with or without the Inquisitor's input, and is able to make requests for practically any academic material Josephine can get her hands on. And it's not just a 'oh Josephine attends to everyone, even the smallest worker' thing either, look at Josephine's dialogue and you will see that she actually reaches out to Solas on certain matters. He's not top echelon in the organization, but he's not staying at the lower rungs either. To be sure, Solas would not mind being the on the Inquisitor's good side. But I don't see a reasonable motive for him to hide his true feelings on spirit/wisp bindings seeing as he has been unnatturally open about his otherwise unorthodox views on spirits in the past. Not to mention that the discussion appears to have no bearing on his standing at all within the Inquisition proper.
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Post by gervaise21 on Oct 16, 2022 8:03:02 GMT
Maybe. But then again it is not like Solas is bending over backwards to stay in the Inquisitor's good graces. He never bothers to hide his disdain of certain things and is even willing to confront the Inquisitor at Skyhold if his disposition is low enough (and like certain other companions, you don't have the option to kick him out). This is definitely true. I've never managed to antagonise him enough to get the negative dialogue in the game but it is definitely there, as I discovered when I surfed You Tube for the scenes. He can be scathing in his condemnation of their actions, so much so that they get the option of punching him, which is why his neutral reaction to necromancy seemed out of character for him. It also contrasts with his attitude to Dorian's use of spirits, which is coming from a necromancer, so no different to what the Inquisitor is doing. I think this could be another instance where PW briefly dropped the ball in his writing of Solas, rather like the reprimand after the Well of Sorrows if the Inquisitor drinks from the Well, when he says that he told them not to drink, when he did nothing of the sort. PW admitted that was an oversight on his part.
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Post by Absafraginlootly on Mar 26, 2023 23:39:50 GMT
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Post by gervaise21 on Mar 27, 2023 8:09:43 GMT
It is huge and creepy x.x Well ain't that a surprise. I would expect nothing less considering what Corypheus says about it. Also, the fact that even the demons avoid it. I do wonder if we will actually end up going there this time round. Clearly the image in Solas' mural is meant to show that city and the cinematic trailer even seems to show that it turned from Golden to Black as a result of the Veil, so at the very least I expect to discover more about that.
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Post by Entropy on Mar 27, 2023 20:38:27 GMT
I want to go there!
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Post by dayze on Mar 31, 2023 2:30:27 GMT
I don't think it'll be as simple as "Happy Titan = Blue Lyrium, Angry Titan = Red Lyrium." We know that the Titans shape The Stone, and The Stone has an impurity called "The Gangue" which is specifically called a "corruption" just as the Blight/Taint is. I imagine that the Titans infused Lyrium with the Gangue using their form of magic, turning it into Red Lyrium and weaponizing for use against the Evanuris. Related to the Titans need to reconnect, I think it's possible that the Dwarves' Stone Sense is essentially the Titans calling out to them, or at least some echo of their former connection. I also want to amend what I said about the relationship between Titans and Darkspawn, after thinking about it more. I do agree that there is probably some subconscious link between the two which is why the Darkspawn don't go near the Titans. What's interesting about the gangue that "corrupt" the stone, is that they are just "spirits" same as any other. And they are mentioned as being "innate to the stone" or even the dwarves. Solas has an association with two wolves, some of the official products have a white wolf as well as a black one. These wolves/the giant wolf in the fade associated with Solas, are the twin elven gods Dirthamen and Falon'Din? The twins control the ravens fear and deceit.....Nightmare from DAI was "fear" and the envy demon from DAI was deceit? Here's another theory, all those islands connected to the black city? Are themselves other cities (well duh but specifically) IE the Moon City/Base, one to an undersea base and so forth.
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Post by gervaise21 on May 2, 2023 8:53:39 GMT
NEW THEORY BASED OF THE COMIC SERIES THE MISSING (so beware spoilers) Okay, so we now appear to have a new faction in Minrathous, the Shadow Dragons. Whilst it isn't explicitly stated in the comic series, it seems likely they are connected with the short story about a group led by the Viper, since characters from the other short stories have appeared in the other three issues of the Missing. It would also seem to tie into the 2020 trailer, since at the time their Twitter thread said that it showcased factions we would be working with and there were basically 4 shown: Grey Wardens; Crows; Veil Jumpers (the mysterious Arcane Archer) and another unidentified group associated with Minrathous and effectively working in the shadows. The short story for DA Day with the Viper is entitled Minrathous Shadows, so that seems a pretty big clue it is about this group. So, we know that they have attracted disaffected Imperial Templars and that they regard themselves as the "Tevinter you forgot", which I take to mean the ruling class of Altus, not just the Venatori, although they do represent the most corrupt elements of the system. Thus, we have a new group challenging the status quo in Tevinter that does not appear to come from the ruling elite, unlike the Lucerni who are from the Magisterium trying to reform the current system rather than overthrow it. Further clues/hints about this group may be possibly be found in Tevinter Nights, since the story featuring Neve (who is also in the comic) mentioned a new group that had arisen that is anti-slavery (they assist freed slaves in the comic) and at least one former Venatori who had renounced their group had become a supporter of this movement. The story with Lucanis had him sponsored by an identified benefactor to kill off Venatori, which also gave him access to some sort of underground network to assist him. Now comes my crazy theory part. What if this group call themselves Shadow Dragons not just because of the association of these creatures with Tevinter or the fact they work from the shadows but because they are an Old God cult who actually worship Lusacan, who is associated with shadows and darkness and has not yet arisen as an Arch-demon. This caused me to wonder a bit more about what Lusacan was really the patron of. Most of what we have been told about the Old Gods is pretty sketchy and World of Thedas even seems to suggest that their patronage either changed overtime or had been misinterpreted by modern scholars. For example, Zazikel is said to be the Dragon of Chaos when referring to the Arch-demons and yet elsewhere it is said that they were celebrated as the Goddess of Freedom. Satinalia was originally the feast day attributed to her and seems very much about freedom of expression but also wild celebrations that can appear somewhat chaotic. Andoral is said to the the Dragon of Slaves but was originally known as the Old God of Unity. Hence the symbolic chains in their iconography that could indicate either slavery or the individual links that combined make the community strong. Their feast day, which occurred in mid summer was commonly associated with marriage, which continued into the Chantry era, again pointing to them being a patron of various bonds that are found in society, which makes more sense than being purely about slavery since their patronage predated the conquest of the elves and the sudden injection of a large number of slaves into the society (although slavery may well have been present before this). So, returning to Lusacan. If the Dragon of Night is more a modern concept of Chantry scholars rather than a true reflection of what the god stood for, what else might they be patron of? The constellation associated with them is Tenebrium, that translates as Shadow. We tend to associate shadows with assassins and spies, who could well have had a patron in old Tevinter, but what if the shadows referred to the people who go largely unseen by the ruling elite? In other words, the Soporati, Liberati and Slaves that make up the Mundane class in Tevinter. They are the people on which the Imperium depends in order to function and yet are often overlooked, mistreated and dismissed as unimportant. They also considerably outnumber the mages, even when Altus and Laetans are combined. The mages maintain their positions of power through a combination of fear and political know how. However, we know at least once in the history of the Imperium the power of the mundanes was sufficient that Archon Hessarian thought it expedient to adopt a new religion and elevate them in society in order to maintain his own hold on power. However, over time the mages gradually took back control, with the backing of the Imperial Chantry, which those among the mundane class may well have seen as a betrayal by the religious leaders. In such a scenario, might they not look for patronage by a former champion of their class, Lusacan, the Old God of Shadows and thus the Shadow Dragons were formed. It is even a possibility that some among they have succeeded in making contact with Lusacan, bearing in mind that they may even have succeeded in attracting mages to their cause, considering that mages can still be slaves in the Imperium. Could it be possible that the Old God Lusacan is going to be involved in some way with the plot of DA:D? Regardless, I still find the Shadow Dragons an interesting faction and look forward to working with them. If this character from the trailer is a Shadow Dragon, then this would appear to be the dress/symbols associated with them:
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Post by gervaise21 on May 2, 2023 14:51:21 GMT
I suppose I should offer a rebuttal to my idea about a connection to Lusacan, which is that the Core Rule Book at least introduced the idea of a Dragon Cult dedicated to Lusacan, called the Last Moon, which was very much focused on the idea of Lusacan returning at the end of time, when all the world would be plunged into eternal darkness. Plus, the high priest was known as the Watchman of the Night, at least according to the Canticle of Silence by Hessarian. Nevertheless, it could still be that the patronage and concept of the god changed over time, as it did with Andoral and Zazikel, so my idea could fit an earlier way of regarding him. It does seem odd to me that the early Neromenians would favour a god that wanted to bring about the end of the world, rather than simply the demise of their enemies, and Lusacan was definitely one of the three patron gods of the kingdom of Neromenian, along with Dumat and Toth.
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Post by eaglepursuit on May 2, 2023 15:00:17 GMT
My crazy theory for the Shadow Dragons is that they are a group of Tal-Vashoth operating in Minrathous.
The Shadow part comes from the former qunari being fairly undesirable and out of place members of society in Tevinter. Their legal status is in question. They are treated with suspicion and contempt, so they make their lives in the shadows. As former qunari, they tend to organize themselves in a communist fashion. They pursue objectives for the good of their community. But they also engage in charitable work for groups they sympathize with, like escaped slaves.
As for the Dragons part, this is a reference to their appearance as imposing beings with cranial horns.
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Post by gervaise21 on May 2, 2023 18:11:23 GMT
My crazy theory for the Shadow Dragons is that they are a group of Tal-Vashoth operating in Minrathous. I wouldn't rule out Tal'Vashoth being part of the group but the short story Minrathous Shadows definitely seems to be about this faction and one of those featured was a human Imperial Templar. The Viper is the character that intrigues me because nothing was really said about him apart from the fact that the Venatori recoiled when she saw his face and thought he was just a tale put around rather than a real person. She also seemed to realise that he was the source of the negation of her magic rather than the Templar, which would make sense since Imperial Templars are just regular soldiers without any of the powers associated with their southern counterparts. I'm not sure if the illustration is meant to depict the Viper but, if so, he appears to have weird glowing eyes, which would make him rather memorable, although I would associate that with being possessed. Not sure what to make about that but whatever his personal motivations, it would seem the group is definitely about overturning the current status quo and opposed to the Venatori. I imagine they wouldn't take kindly to an elven "god" trying to undermine them by restoring elven glory either but until we know more about those leading the faction, I wouldn't be absolutely sure about that as there could be agents of Fen'Harel among them using this group for their own ends.
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Post by xerrai on May 27, 2023 3:46:16 GMT
So. Old theory of mine.
So if you ascribe to the common evanuris-were-once-spirits theory, people usually talk about the evanuris as if they spirit-like enough that they have some sort of drive to pursue the purpose their spirit selves once had. (E.g., If Elgar'nan was once a vengeance spirit it was simply his 'nature' to act as heavy-handed as he did, if Dirthamen was once a spirit of knowledge then it was simply natural for him to hoard secrets, etc.). And that the pursuit of this purpose, or perversion of it, is a major part of why the evanuris ended up as corrupt as they were.
But what if the pursuit of that old spirit-like purpose is the problem in and of itself?
Because as often as we talk about them like they were spirits...there is a very distinct and even likely possibility that they just weren't. Even if they were spirits in the beginning, there isn't much of a reason to assume they stayed that way all the way through when they transitioned into elves. Maybe as Solas claims, maybe they were JUST mortal at the end of the day. Even if they were powerful and knowledgable enough to barely have that label apply to them when they reached their evanuris status. But the idea that they missed their simple spirit selves, or that simple spirit-like way of being, isn't entirely out of the question. After all, even Solas seems to miss it to a degree.
Cole: You don't need to envy me, Solas. You can find happiness in your own way. Solas: I apologize for disturbing you, Cole. I am not a spirit, and sometimes it is hard to remember such simple truths. Cole: They are not gone so long as you remember them. Solas: I know. [-Continued discussion-]
And I think the mindset of "It's just my nature" also provided a simple logic to excuse their own actions to themselves. And the desire to at least emulate their old spirit selves to bring a degree of self-satisfaction can be a solid motivation in and of itself--even if their actions would never be enough to satisfy them. Ironically in an effort to be more like a spirit, it can be argued they perverted the more complex and nebulous 'nature' of being mortal.
But that old theory was pre-Trespasser. And now the one thing I could never work around was if this was the case: then why didn't they make like the Forbidden Ones and just go back into the Fade. Was it just so they couldn't give up their power? Or were they too connected to the mortal realm to ever make it back successfully? Or were they unintentionally bound by their worshippers somehow?
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Post by colfoley on May 27, 2023 7:49:38 GMT
A couple of minor theories and maybe even a bit of a segue from xerrai up above. Watched someone play Mark of the Assassin today and it struck me...was Salit giving Prosper the list of names at the end there a sanctioned operation within the Qun? Now this is one of those theories which is perfect for the Crazy Theory Center (tm) because probably no way or knowing per se...so discuss! But it would be well within how the Qunari operate. It would also explain a few weird factors like how Salit even came to possess such a list in the first place and, perhaps more damning, that Talis was specifically told not to do it and there was some question if she wasn't effectively Tal-Vashoth as long as this was going on. Plus Talis makes a rather big deal of mentioning that the list also includes people who are no longer agents. So it would make a lot of sense for the Qunari/ Ben-Hassrath to have a bunch of agents go rogue on them...as they naturally do...but find it difficult to get at them...for various reasons...so they hatch a plan to let the Orlesians do it for them. Theory number 2 and kind of backing up on the whole 'Evanruis are spirits' thing. And while I do believe this theory pretty strongly now it does present an interesting problem because what of the...Forgotten Ones...the gods that Solas abandoned underneath the Earth. And then if they were spirits then why would their physical bodies be seperate. But perhaps the answer is one in the same. Solas set up the Veil to trap the spirits of the Evanruis and then used the bodies of the Evanuris as the basis to trap the Forgotten Ones afterall it has been suggested that the 'Old Gods' are serving as a prison for something. Only outstanding issue becomes the nature of the 'Old God Soul' which Mythal/ Flemeth was very eager to save, the question then kind of becomes...well, why? How? If the spitis are in the Fade and the Bodies are in the real world/ underground then this would suggest that the process of being blighted then sucks the spirit back into the body...or there is no connection at all.
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Post by gervaise21 on May 27, 2023 8:10:35 GMT
Because as often as we talk about them like they were spirits...there is a very distinct and even likely possibility that they just weren't. Even if they were spirits in the beginning, there isn't much of a reason to assume they stayed that way all the way through when they transitioned into elves The is also the problem that we don't know if spirits generally have always been the same or if the Veil altered them in some way. Currently spirits seem to embody some emotion or quality that is associated with mortal beings. Yet, if the Fade and spirits came first, as the Chant of Light suggests, when/where did they acquire these attributes? In fact the Chant of Light suggests they weren't driven by anything and that the Maker saw this as a problem that could only be fixed by creating the material world and mortal creatures. However, it also suggests that the Veil was also there from the outset, so it is hard to say how much validity the Chant of Light has when it comes to the sequence of events or nature of spirits. When we were in the Fade with the Nightmare demon, Solas suggested that fear was the first emotion to be focused upon by spirits, which is why Nightmare is so ancient and powerful. I would question this assertion with regard to which emotion was first which a spirit attached itself to but it still begs the question, did the Fear spirit only arise because of the emotion or was it simply a case of a spirit without direction latching onto it? (A bit of a chicken and egg scenario). When his friend dissipated into spiritual energy and returned to the Fade, Solas said it was possible to detect that energy where he used to encounter his friend and that it would eventually coalesce into a new spirit of wisdom but that it would never be the same as the spirit he knew. Or were they too connected to the mortal realm to ever make it back successfully? Or were they unintentionally bound by their worshippers somehow? I have theorised that the reason Mythal was able to retain her identity after being "killed" is because of the continued worship by her followers. The various codices concerning the Avvar and their gods/beliefs would seem to reinforce this idea. However, it doesn't help much to establish the nature of Mythal as a spirit because the Avvar also believe that mortals can be reincarnated. The conversations between Solas and Cole about spirits are revealing and that one you quote is interesting because it is not clear as to the "them" he remembers. Cole says Solas "You didn't do it to be right. You did it to save them." So, what were they and what did he do? Solas also tells the Inquisitor that he didn't opt for killing the Evanuris because he knew it wouldn't be permanent, which is odd because in that case surely he knew that Mythal wasn't really gone either. However, we do know from the Avvar that slaying the mortal vessel frees the spirit within. Was he afraid that the spirit would return from death or that it would be freed of whatever effect the mortal body had upon it? Apparently he wanted his revenge/punishment for their betrayal of her to be permanent and that is why he chose banishment rather than death, which might have freed them in more ways than one, but it required the Veil so there was a barrier preventing their return. In this context it is worth remembering what happens with the Old God soul depending on whether you choose to do the dark ritual or not. In DAO there are two versions of what happens when the Grey Warden kills the Archdemon. One says that it simply results in their mutual death but the other in the actual destruction of both their souls. Flemeth also says of the Old God soul in Kieran that it was "snatched from the jaws of darkness". This would suggest that the soul would have been destroyed and that the ritual was specifically intended to save it from such a fate. Interestingly, the soul inside Kieran seems relatively benign in nature and actually seems to feel guilt about actions that were done in the past that it had witnessed, for example when speaking to a Qunari Inquisitor. Was it just the fact that the dragon body had been corrupted by the taint that had altered the nature of this spirit or was it having existed for too long as a mortal? Returning to the worshiper idea, the Avvar are under no illusion that their gods are anything but spirits, with the named gods among them being the most powerful. Those gods do not embody emotions so much as aspects of the natural world. This is very close to how the Creators are thought of by the Dalish. Elgar'nan = Sun/Light; Mythal = Moon/Water; Andruil = Trees/hunting; Sylaise = Fire/domestic pursuits; June = Crafting of practical items; Dirthamen = the state of Uthenera seeking knowldege; Falon'Din = Air(Fade) and Death. Could it be that the Dalish are recalling what these spirits originally identified with before the war (with the Titans) changed them? Remember not all spirits are associated with emotions or the Fade. The Lady of the Forest states she was not summoned from the Fade but called out of the earth itself. Incidentally, she also says that she embodies both the beautiful and savage aspects of nature, so may be the Creators were the same. To be honest, I'm not convinced that the writing team have ever really had a proper theory and development of spirits they are working to but simply made it up as they went along, hence the contradictions that are apparent in the lore as the series has progressed. However, I think they were beginning to form their ideas into a cohesive whole during DAI, Jaws of Hakkon and Trespasser, so hopefully we will get some answers in DA:D.
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Post by gervaise21 on May 27, 2023 8:50:32 GMT
Watched someone play Mark of the Assassin today and it struck me...was Salit giving Prosper the list of names at the end there a sanctioned operation within the Qun? Now this is one of those theories which is perfect for the Crazy Theory Center (tm) because probably no way or knowing per se...so discuss! But it would be well within how the Qunari operate. It would also explain a few weird factors like how Salit even came to possess such a list in the first place and, perhaps more damning, that Talis was specifically told not to do it and there was some question if she wasn't effectively Tal-Vashoth as long as this was going on. Plus Talis makes a rather big deal of mentioning that the list also includes people who are no longer agents. So it would make a lot of sense for the Qunari/ Ben-Hassrath to have a bunch of agents go rogue on them...as they naturally do...but find it difficult to get at them...for various reasons...so they hatch a plan to let the Orlesians do it for them. I've long questioned if Salit was really a traitor and that is why Talis was specifically warned off from interfering by her superiors. Of course, they may have felt that trying to stop him would only validate his information, whereas letting it go ahead when they knew many of those on his list were no longer agents would make it less credible to the Orlesians when this became apparent. Either theory falls apart somewhat when the person receiving this information is such an idiot he apparently doesn't recognise the value of it. Also, the fact that Talis can infiltrate the meeting wearing nothing more than a helmet as a disguise. Even is Prosper is a complete fool, wouldn't Salit be cautious enough to be keeping guard against possible assassins? So, I don't think the writers had really thought this through sufficiently as to the complexity it could be adding the the scenario and it was just a vehicle for promoting Talis. Mind you, the whole set up with MoA is reflected to a large extent in Trespasser and what happens with Iron Bull if he is still Hissrad. If Par Vollen had washed their hands of Viddasala, wouldn't it have made more sense for them get a message to Hissrad to that effect? It would make their protestations of innocence in the plot far more plausible if Hissrad refused to obey her. Then there is that whole business with Iron Bull as Tal'Vashoth and their attempts to eliminate him, which to be honest were pretty pathetic, making it possible to believe that he was still part of the Qun but that now his cover was complete, as everyone thinks he is not longer a spy but a defector. Of course, it was rather strange how he originally introduced himself to us as a spy because apparently he though Leliana would find him out anyway. In other words, he was a pretty useless spy if that was the case. Let's face it, her intelligence team didn't spot Corypheus and his Grey Wardens infiltrating the Conclave (which should have been very high security bearing in mind there had already been attempts on the life of the Divine), nor did they spot the numerous Qunari agents within the Inquisition (funny how Iron Bull never mentioned them when he is allegedly so good at spotting signs of infiltrators) and the Viddasala apparently knew of the connection between Solas and Fen'Harel (even if she didn't know they were one and the same) but this was never passed on to Iron Bull. Why did Par Vollen keep us in the dark? So, essentially I think we often see the possibilities for complexity in the plots that were never considered by the writing team, which is a pity because I would have liked this to be the case.
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