The Crazy Theory Center

New crazy theory concerning the Titans. Now I appreciate that the writers are constantly evolving and adjusting the lore, so something that seemed to be hinted at earlier, particularly associated media rather than the games, may have been altered or dropped altogether, particularly if the person behind it has now left the writing team. That said, I had a thought about the Titans in relation to the comment by Yavana in the Silent Grove that the "Blood of dragons is the blood of the world". When we made the discovery about the relationship between Titans and lyrium in the Descent, I assumed this superseded the information in Silent Grove because WoT definitely suggests that lyrium the "blood of the world" and that has now been shown to be the blood of Titans. However, I then started to think about how the dragons in Silent Grove had a sanctuary built for them underground where they could go into hibernation (uthenera?) and how they always make their nests underground, where their young are hatched and nurtured until big enough to leave. So what if the dragons were originally the children of the Titans in the upper levels of the Deep Roads, from where they emerged to "rule the skies", whereas the dwarves were the children who remained underground?

Various other ideas to support this. Dragons are said to be resistant to the taint and the darkspawn were not found at the lower levels nearest the Titan in the Descent, as though something in the raw lyrium repels them. This doesn't explain why lyrium can be infected with the taint but Solas did suggest at the beginning of DAI that the red lyrium in the Temple of Sacred Ashes could have been caused by the magical energy unleashed there. Since the Temple was built over a mountain of lyrium, this would suggest that large magical force can corrupt lyrium. I would also note that it was the Breach that disturbed the Titan.

If this theory did turn out to be correct, then the reason the Evanuris took on the form of dragons was because they were the embodiment of the power of the enemy they vanquished. Also, it would explain why Mythal was so concerned to preserve the dragons because she knew their connection with the Titans, having been one of those who subdued them. In the Dalish tale about the battle with the Sun, Elgar'nan simply seems to want vengeance and total destruction but it is Mythal who persuades him to back off and she finds a way to subdue the "Sun" instead. Since in the tale the stars are created by the blood of the sun being scattered across the sky during the fight with Elgar'nan, I've always assumed that was a reference to lyrium once the relationship with the blood of Titans was established.

Which leads me on the the final thought; that the Old Gods are connected in some way to the Titans rather than the Evanuris. This would also explain Flemeth's determination to try and save them, just as she does the dragons preserved by her daughter Yavana, because somehow their survival is important to that of the world. Ultimately it all leads back to the Titans, the Pillars of the Earth, literally the foundation of its existence.

Also, at least some people from ancient Tevinter where aware of the importance of dragons, since it was they who created the sanctuary for the Great Dragons in the Silent Grove and they did this after the Old God religion had been superseded in Tevinter because they feared dragons would be hunted out of existence as a result.

It also depends on when they came up with the Titan concept. Now considering how they do tie neatly into the whole dwarven thing with regard to the Stone, I'm thinking this has always been on the back burner to be introduced at some point. Which makes DG introducing the idea of the dragons being important to the survival of the world through their blood a bit odd. It could have been explained away by Yavana having been taught the wrong thing by Flemeth, except we now know that she harboured Mythal inside her and that is where she was getting her information from. However, we do know that Mythal had a very strong connection with dragons, almost as if perhaps they were her creation, and that it is entirely possible that, just like elves, the dragons have a strong connection with the Fade via their blood, that likely has a concentration of lyrium within it. So, may be that is what Yavana was referring to, since lyrium is essentially the "blood of the world".

Even the Chantry believe this, according to WoT, with some of them saying the sound it emits is the voice of the Maker, but generally believing that it is "not just the essence of magic but the essence of all creation". Even if they got the source of it wrong, since their theories were only based on what they knew of the mineral the dwarves mine, it does seem as though they could be right about its nature. I think lyrium is an integral part of the fabric of creation, appearing as it does both in the Waking World and the Fade, even to some extent providing a bridge between the two.

This is also why I'm pretty sure this is why Solas is so convinced he has to take his proposed action because of the release of red lyrium onto the surface of the world, in order to save it and thus the elven people. The Blight/red lyrium was the power the Evanuris lusted after that would have resulted in total annihilation in ancient times, Mythal tried to prevent it and they killed her, so Fen'Harel had no alternative but to seal them and the substance away where they could no longer harm creation. Unfortunately, the Magisters breaking into the Black City released it and now the only way to prevent it ultimately corrupting everything is to cleanse the world with a major injection of magic, resulting in the fires of chaos. I always thought it interesting that the Promissors believed the same thing, that the world could only be cleansed with fire.

It also explains Flemeth's willingness to involve herself in stopping the Blight in Ferelden, which she said was a threat to everyone including her, Solas' various conversations concerning the Grey Wardens and his anxiety about killing the last two Old Gods, which likely will mean there will be nothing keeping the darkspawn underground, and also his particular focus on disrupting the plans of the Venatori, whom we know are constantly misusing and spreading red lyrium.

That first trailer for Inquisition in 2013 started with Morrigan saying "None shall be untouched by the fires above".  It also showed scenes that never appeared in the final game, such as the Veil tearing across the sky with a dragon emerging from it and fire bombs raining down from the skies.    Even if that doesn't appear in Dreadwolf either, it is clear there was a concept with this in the original thinking of the writers and the theme underlying it may still be there.

You mean something like this:

The people are not on a ship but that big ass monster does seem to be coming out of the sea. However, is it using the lightning or is the lightning being used against it? It would certainly make sense to attack a creature surrounded by water in order to destroy it. This picture and caption taken from the section of the book referring to the next game says:The Evil Gods have Thedas in their sights and only heroes can stop them. The shadows of the past stir, and new heroes must rise to fight them. So is this an awakened Evanuris, an Old God or something else entirely?

I know, although they only appear in lore of the table top game, not anywhere in the actual game and much of the table top lore has subsequently been altered by the writers, even if it was relevant at the time DAO was written.

It didn't refer to the Cetus specifically, it merely says:
On the second day she drowned the giants of the sea, except those in deep waters, for they were too well-wrought, and Pride stopped her hand.
So that creature in the art could even be one of her "giants of the sea". It is also possible that Ghil did some sort of soul split that allowed her to bond with the creature as an insurance against future misfortune. I suppose the most relevant piece of information, though, is that Pride stopped her hand, where the capitalisation has made many of us think it referred to Solas. In which case, could the giant sea centipede be an ally of his out of gratitude for preventing their destruction in the past?

And then sent them all overseas? More likely it was followers of Ghilan'nain who left Thedas and did the experiments there if that is the origin of these two races. Remember both races are said to have come from across the sea and pretty much from the same direction. The Executors are also said to represent "those from across the sea", so there would seem to be some sort of civilisation out there. It is also worth noting that the Executor in TN seemed to think that the Qunari might fear to meet with them. Why would they assume this about a group they had never previously encountered?

Now I am prepared to admit that the Kossith may have been created by Ghilan'nain, possibly using both humans and elves as her subjects/victims until she arrived at something she was satisfied with and that the pools are somehow connected with this. She might then have sent them overseas to avoid the purge on her monsters. It is possible the old legend that says she spared the monsters of the sea at Pride's request, didn't refer to actual sea monsters but those sent away across the sea, in other words the kossith. It makes sense that Pride (Solas) may have objected to her killing sentient beings and so persuaded her to exile them instead. The Qun were simply an offshoot of this civilisation across the sea who were forced to flee when the ruling elite objected to their new philosophy. Hence the Executor thinking that the Qun might fear them.

However, I don't think Ghilan'nain created the humans, although I will admit their origins are somewhat vague. There is also some discrepancy concerning when they appeared in the timeline. According to WoT and the Dalish legend, it was around the time that Solas created the Veil, hence the elves of the time thinking there was some connection between the appearance of the humans and their loss of immortality. However, the timeline in the Keep puts the appearance of humans back a thousand years before this event and the story of Andruil in the ToM says how she grew tired of hunting "mortal men". Since they elves saw themselves as immortal, I assume this can only refer to humans. If this was the case, then this was well before the murder of Mythal. I can see where you are coming from, though, on assuming Ghilan'nain created them, since it would seem she likely did create her monsters for Andruil to hunt.

I am just hoping that this time round the game is going to give us more information on the origins of the humans and the kossith, the elves and dwarves having been pretty comprehensively covered in the DLC to DAI.

Even this particular piece of information can be contradicted by other entries in WoT. According to the timeline the Old Gods first started whispering to the Neromenians in -2800 Ancient and teaching them magic (but not blood magic?), yet the recipients of this teaching were Dreamers, so were they human mages who didn't know how to do magic yet had abilities on a par with people like Solas? Then later,in -1595, Dumat decided to teach Thalsian how to do blood magic, so if this ultimately led to the assault on the Black City, it would seem Dumat was trying to get an advantage over the other gods. If you believe the legend in the Chant of Light, initially Thalsian only used animal blood sacrifices to gain his power, which gave the Neromenians the edge over their fellow barbarians and it was one of the other Old Gods who helped the Planascene tribes survive the attack of the Neromenians, so long as they rejected worship of the Maker. What was the intent in all this is anyone's guess.

Now Corypheus mentions how when he entered the Black City they found nothing but "dead whispers". Also, in Legacy, his admonishment of Dumat suggests he was promised the city would be golden, or at the very least Dumat never warned him that it wasn't. Could it be that Dumat wasn't aware? If the city was golden when the Old Gods were locked away, why would they expect it to be any different? If we go by the cinematic from last autumn, it appeared to show that the corruption occurred on the raising of the Veil, although it could also be showing how the Veil trapped the corruption within the city, whilst it still appeared golden from the outside. This would explain why it was black within when Cory got there and subsequently its appearance changed outwardly as well.

I wish they hadn't changed the terminology with reference to the elven gods. Previously, according to the Dalish, there were two distinct groups, the Creators and the Forgotten Ones, who were locked in war with one another. It may well be that the Evanuris were the Creators and the Forgotten Ones were the rebel faction who refused to accept their rule but it would have been helpful if Solas had confirmed this. The cinematic seemed to suggest that the gods around the rim were connected in some way to the Veil. However, it is still possible that they weren't the Evanuris but the Forgotten Ones, who helped Solas create the Veil but were double crossed by him, becoming trapped as well. This would explain why they started whispering to human mages rather than elves, since most of the survivors of the civil war were supporters of the Evanuris. It might also explain why they took different names, so Solas wouldn't be alerted to what they were doing. It would also explain why he was so upset at the thought of the Grey Wardens trying to kill the last two Old Gods because they were all that was holding the Veil together and he didn't want it removed until he recovered his orb. You will note that he got us to activate those artifacts that were also said to strengthen the Veil.

I would also note that in some texts it was suggested that the humans didn't learn blood magic from spirits voices in the Fade but from ancient elf survivors. I have previously suggested that it was unions between ancient elves and humans that resulted in the first Dreamer mages, with all trace of their elven ancestry being lost down the years and possibly deliberately suppressed, whilst outwardly they looked human like all elf bloodied humans do. Solas does not have a problem with blood magic, seeing it as just another form of magic that can be used for good or ill, so that suggests that the ancient elves were familiar with its workings. Thus, it does make sense that this was how blood magic originally passed to the humans and was then handed down within those specific families. It could be that Thalsian just found it convenient to attribute his knowledge to his god as he was his high priest and this would give him the edge over the priesthood of other gods. It is also possible that the ancient elves who intermarried with the humans were from the rebel faction, since according to Gisharel the Evanuris supporters attributed the change in their attitude to their interaction with humans and that is why it was subsequently prohibited. The timeline definitely confirms that humans were present in Thedas before the raising of the Veil, when the elves first felt the Quickening, which is why they assumed it was contamination by contact with humans that was responsible. The Evanuris supporters then retreated from contact and went into seclusion and likely Uthenera, as the priesthood of Mythal did, but that means they wouldn't know what happened to the ones who remained out in the world, mixing with the humans.

I know this was likely meant as a joke but it isn't as crazy as it seems if you consider they Old Gods didn't enter hibernation/uthenera voluntarily. Corypheus used the Nightmare Demon to amplify his power, so what if Solas needed to put them to sleep, so used a Greater Sloth Demon to amplify his spell? According to Morrigan there was no limit to the range of Corypheus' ability to soul jump into Wardens, which I find hard to believe so maybe she was in error or deliberately misleading us, but taking it at face value it would seem that certain spells can operate on a Thedas wide scale provided they have sufficient power. At the time Cory had the orb to focus magical power and amplify his ability, Alexius needed the Breach to give him the required power for his time manipulation and in the comic series Until We Sleep, Titus was going to use a magical artifact, the Magrellen, to amplify his blood magic mind control spell.   So, there is certainly a precedent there, both with the Nightmare Demon and the other examples, for an amplifying of the area of effect for a spell or allowing it to operate beyond the normal constraints of magic.

On a related note, it may be that whilst Solas has already begun his ritual to remove the Veil, it will not be able to operate over more than a localised area without additional power.   Originally he was going to use his orb but without that, it may be he is still searching for an alternative.   If what was presumed by Varric and Harding in the Missing, that Solas was responsible for the strange occurrences in Arlathan Forest, then it could be that he has already been partially successful with his ritual and that it is a warning of what will happen to the rest of Thedas if he isn't stopped.   However, I suspect we will find that Solas isn't responsible for what is happening in Arlathan Forest and he may even be opposing those who are.

When you list them like this, it does make you wonder if there was originally some concept about this in the thinking of the writers, even if they subsequently altered direction. In the Chant of Light in WoT2 the Maker says of humans:
"From the Fade I crafted you and to the Fade you shall return each night in dreams, that you may always remember me."
This last part seems odd because whilst everyone dreams at some point, even if they don't remember them all, many of them had forgotten the Maker when he allegedly spoke to Andraste. Also, this only referred to humans but what about elves, who are also able to dream, or dwarves, who cannot? Now at least with dwarves, whilst they didn't remember the Titans, they do honour the "Stone" which suggests a vague residual memory of their origins.

I'm not sure about this but in Trespasser the rhyme about Mythal in relation to the dwarves seems to suggest that she may have put the Titan to sleep and then substituted her own dreams on the dwarves in place of those that connected them to the Titans. So, in a manner of speaking, instead of saying "Mythal gives you dreams," it should have said "Mythal cut off your dreams". Bearing in mind this was a half remember rhyme of the Dalish, it is possible they got the meaning muddled when they recovered/remembered it. Also, the sudden injection of magic by the Breach disturbed the Titan's slumber and it became agitated because it did seem to be trying to make contact with its children, the dwarves, but couldn't, not even those creepy ones in the Deep Roads that were devoted to it. So, if Cole did suggested the Titan makes music, that would fit with it trying to communicate with the dwarves, via the Fade perhaps?  Lyrium does give off a musical sound.   I think that is how dwarves are said to locate it but mages are certainly aware of this and the Chantry suggests it is the "song of the Maker".    Since lyrium is the blood of the Titans, Cole would not be wrong in saying they are making music if this was one of his monologues.

There were no sloth demons in DAI from what I recall but those demons we encountered outside the Fade were very active, so perhaps sloth demons didn't really appreciate the Breach and were among those spirits that kept well clear of it.

Seems a bit counter intuitive to me if this is what happened since fear tends to make people very agitated and more likely to wakefulness and activity. Sloth is more likely to be related to apathy if we are considering negative traits are those of demons, so industry and activism would be the opposing positive traits. I seem to recall that the demon trying to possess Feynriel was a sloth demon and was able to appeal to him because of his fear of the spirits trying to contact him. So fear led to sloth rather than the other way round. Still, in relation to this idea about sleep and dreams, Feynriel was a Dreamer and sought refuge in the Fade from his fears, leading him into a deeper state of sleep, where he was controlled by a demon who specialised in keeping people trapped in the Fade. In some ways, the sloth demon is causing the person to "forget" their fears and the rest of the Fade or beings they could encounter there. I've mentioned in the past how there seems to have been a collective amnesia among the people of Thedas concerning events which should have been ingrained in their racial memory, for example the fact that there wasn't always a Veil. Could this be the influence of a powerful Sloth demon?

A related thought. Felassan knew if he entered the Fade he was going to encounter Fen'Harel and this would likely lead to his death. It was possible for him to avoid this by staying "awake" using herbs that would prevent him from dreaming and when they failed, spell wards that would protect him from entering the Fade, or rather I suppose from the denizens of the Fade finding him. That almost sounds like his own personal Veil. In the end he decided that he would rather face the music but considering PW wrote Masked Empire and also was lead writer on Trespasser, plus of course is lead writer on DA:D, I think this theme of sleep and dreaming is going to feature and possibly a major sloth demon could be involved in the plot.

I'm not sure but I believe that varterral were meant to have been created by Dirthamen. However, that may just come from Dalish legends which aren't always accurate. The same is true of wolf guardians. I've been discussing this on the wolf statue thread but I think the Emerald Knights may have thought pictures showing wolves guarding elves were actual wolves, whereas it could have been showing arcane warriors if I am correct and they were symbolically depicted as wolves because of their loyalty to the People (Pack) and how they guard the nobility (Alpha male/female). The idea of wolf guardians being used by the Emerald Knights did surprise me because in the Core Rule Book it says how the Dalish disapprove of using animals in that way, regarding it as cruel, which is odd when the majority of the Dalish are families descended from the Emerald Knights. To get a wolf to bond with the elf, they would have to take them as cubs, which is why I could understand the Dalish disapproving of the practice. The alternative would be to cast some sort of spell on the adult wolf, so it still wouldn't be its choice to serve them but effectively enslaving it. However, our Dalish could be a Ranger in DAO and no mention was made there of racial scruples against it, so may be they dropped the idea from the final version that they carried forward in the games.

I think we may encounter varterral again in DA:D as PW wrote about them in Masked Empire and Tevinter Nights, whilst a strange forest guardian was shown in the Arlathan Forest in the comic series the Missing. May be we will find out there exactly what makes them tick. Their ability to sense and react to intruders does seem to suggest some sort of demon/spirit was bound to the created structure. Since Silvans are possessed trees that respond to intrusion into their area of forest, I assume that gave Dirthamen, or whoever was responsible for the varterral, their idea for the construct.

Solas has an extensive knowledge of the Fade and identifies strongly with spirits, so I imagine he would be familiar with varterral and how to control them, even if he isn't directly linked to them. The main reason people equate Solas with a Pride demon is his name, which means Pride in elvish, and the fact that his demon wolf alter ego in the Fade has six eyes like a Pride demon. However, I wonder if it is possible for a spirit to change its identity altogether with the right conditions.

Ancient elves changed their name on changing their role in society and also, if Abelas is any guide, to reflect their state of mind. Abelas took his name, which means Sorrow, on the death of Mythal, so previously was known by something different when he wasn't sad. Since he changed his name on entering Mythal's service, perhaps his name then was "Joy" or "Happiness" on being selected to join her priesthood. That bears a strong resemblance to how spirits are identified. However, clearly he was known by something else before he entered her service that likely wasn't related to the names he took later. So may be spirits back in ancient times before the Veil were more complex and not so tied to one attribute or its opposite but could change to something else entirely. May be the difference between elves and spirits, or pre-Veil spirits and their post Veil counterparts, is that they weren't attracted to and reflected the emotions of others but expressed what they felt themselves.

It is worth remembering that Rasaan believes that Solas is not his "true name" but something he adopted later in life in response to his situation at the time. This being the case he could have been Wonder that turned into Terror, before Wisdom that turned into Pride or, considering his two friends were Wisdom/Pride and Purpose/Desire, may be the latter could be an indication of his identity before he became Pride.

Snipping just to try to avoid double Wall of Text


Meant to comment on this a while back but I'm glad I was delayed because it gave me more time for research and some adventuring in the Hissing Wastes which is central to what I'll be writing below.

The timing on your theory may not quite work out, but there are strong indications from various sources in the Hissing Wastes of a powerful, ancient connection between the Dwarves and Dragons that was previously unguessed in lore. Before I get into that, a little bit on my comment about timing. Several different items in the Hissing Wastes place the founding of Kal Repartha well before the 'dragon preserve' in the comic. First, the Four Pillars landmark contains a Tevinter scholar placing the founding of the thaig before 700 TE. That would be at least 300 years before Andraste begins preaching, much less before Andrastianism overtakes the Empire. Further evidence, one of the Ventori notes claims Corypheus himself had been to Kal Repartha (and I don't think it was as an darkspawn). Finally, and I only got this by going with Iron Bull, he is certain that the ruins are impressively ancient as well which isn't precise dating but definitely hammers home that Kal Repartha is very old, probably far older than any dragon sanctuary.

That doesn't mean I think your theory is wrong. There's a lot more in the Hissing Wastes that points to some kind of ancient link between the Dwarves and the dragons. The most obvious is the entry from A Journal on Dwarven Ruins where the unknown explorer logs this inscription from the heraldry of Fairel:


The explorer tells us that urtok is dwarven for dragon. She/he also tells us that this inscription has been passed down by several generations of Fairel's ancestors (which adds even more years to when this link was active). It's the clearest, but by no means only indication. There's the fact that one of the artefact 'treasures' you can pickup right alongside plates, toy soldires, crests, etc. are Dwarven Dragon Statues. They would have to be numerous to survive the centuries but strange for a subterranean race that had never seen dragons. Then there is the dragon shrine atop the Tomb of Fairel itself. Maybe a little in joke by a designer since the Player really would have to work to get up there but there is another indicator I just spotted playing a few days ago. Atop one of the rocks to the northeast of the first Inquisition camp, just at the 'entrance' of the path leading to Fairel's Tomb is an unmistakable 'dragon with shield' statue. This hit me, if you'll excuse the expression, like a hammer. To my knowledge, we do not see this kind of statue in any other dwarven areas, but they are common in places like Din'an Hanin (over Elendrin's Tomb, for example) and other elven areas. I haven't traced down that path in my current game but I will be watching out for more on the way. What does all of this mean? I've got a pretty solid theory.

Somehow, Fairel's clan far back in the mists of time have a memory of the Evanuris driving the dwarves back underground, probably in their dragon form. That's why the inscription exists and is placed in something that will persist long af6ter the memory is faded. Whatever drove Fairel's clan (and there are some notes from the unknown explorer that more than one clan joined Fairel so whatever it was was BIG) to the surface had to overcome fear deeply ingrained fears. It had to be something more fearsome or more driving because not only did they flee to the surface, according to one of the Venatori, they collapsed the tunnels to the Deep Roads behind them. This then makes the meaning of the name Kal Repartha ("A place where we may meet in peace") plain but in a different way. This was no dwarven pacifist looking for peace with other dwarves who misused his work. They were still far underground and would not appreciate the work. who were still leaving underground. The statues, the honor, the symbology were all directed towards the dwarves meeting dragons in peace. If peace were not an option, they were otherwise prepared as well. Iron Bull points out the construction as 'siege mentality'. Since the darkspawn were not to arrive for at least a couple of hundred years (though I do wonder if Fairel's people may have contacted them before the First Blight), the sturdy construction was against the possibly hostile urtok.

As always, good to talk with you and thank you for your time. Much better talking about this than more current events.