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Post by gervaise21 on Sept 3, 2023 8:15:26 GMT
Thinking about how the Dalish might abandon mage children in the woods if they have too many... Is a ridiculous retcon of the lore they made for DAI. I think it was in response to the argument that the Dalish seem to manage just fine with their mages, so why is the Chantry so against them? Also, the general tendency to make the Dalish look stupid or bad in DAI. The original tradition among the Dalish was that the clan should always have a Keeper to guide them, the title being short for "Keeper of the Lore", which is the function they performed in the Dales community, along with being the priesthood for the elven gods. When they fled with the survivors of the Exalted March, chiefly the families of the Emerald Knights, they assumed leadership of the refugees. It would seem that this priesthood were always made up of mages, taught that all their ancestors were magical (as has turned out to be true) and that every mage born to the clan brought them one step closer to becoming true elves once more and recovering their ancient ways. They also have a belief that once they remember what it is to be true elves, the gods will return. Do you see now why it would be illogical and unthinkable for a community with this belief to abandon mage children in the woods? Nor would they have sacrificed them to Andruil during the time of the Dales, as that is not how the Dalish see her. As for Fen'Harel, no self respecting Dalish would sacrifice their own children to a god that is invoked as a literal curse on their enemies. There was that group who were making blood sacrifices in a shrine to Andruil at the time of the Exalted March but I'm pretty sure it said they were using human victims and we have no proof this group were following an actual tradition. In Masked Empire, PW introduced the idea that the Dalish clan there would torture their captives with a "game" known as Fen'Harel's teeth, which was totally contrary to the Way of Three Trees. Since their attitude to city elves also differed markedly from our previous experience of the Dalish in DAO and DA2 and was also contrary to the attitude displayed in a codex about the Dalish in DAO, I have to assume that this clan's teaching had diverged from the others over the years, as Solas maintained was the case. Even so, Thelhen would have been more welcoming to Briala had she been a mage. In the Core Rule Book, first brought out shortly after DAO, to allow people to play a table top game, it confirms what was apparent in DAO when we talk with Lanaya, the First to Zathrian. She recounts how she competed with other mages in the clan for the position, so evidently there were more than 3 mages in the clan as she specifically mentions more than one competed with her and, of course, Zathrian was also a mage. The Core Rule Book says that effectively the other mages would be the equivalent of apprentices, the First being considered a more senior position even if they are a trainee Keeper, and if something should happen to the First, then another mage would be elevated to the position. Bearing in mind that there might be a considerable gap in age between one mage and the next, older mages should have been given sufficient basic training by the Keeper that they would know how to control their magic and also be able to assist in training the younger mages in the clan, so the burden wouldn't fall entirely on the Keeper. The three mage rule was originally introduced in DA2 in connection with Merrill because apparently the Sabrae clan had not been her birth clan. So, because that clan had more than 3 mages (essentially the Keeper, the heir and a spare), they allowed Sabrae to adopt Merrill so they would not be without a successor to Marethari. Again, this tradition among the Dalish emphasised the importance of mages among the clans, not a fear of them or inability to cope if they exceeded the paltry figure of 3. Merrill does say that if a mage should become possessed, then the clan will be forced to hunt them down and kill them, even if the Keeper, but that does suggest that the non-mage members of the clan are able to deal with the situation should it arise. So, no, I don't think the new false doctrine reflects a practice of the ancient elves and will blow a fuse if this is ever suggested in the future by the writing team. Considering all elves were in some way magical in ancient times, as confirmed by Solas, why would they abandon or sacrifice them simply for being mages? If anything, I would imagine they were more likely to reject those who were not particularly talented as the Evanuris would have no use for them in the complicated magical rituals they performed. However, I suppose it might be possible that elven families, particularly those from the nobility, were encouraged to give their third child into the service of their respective Evanuris, rather as the Chantry does with human nobility, but this would more likely be to serve in their priesthood than be killed or abandoned in the woods. This might then have transferred over into the original 3 mage rule we were told about in DA2. So far as Andruil hunting elves was concerned, these would likely either be escaped slaves or adjudged criminals.
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Post by duskwanderer on Sept 3, 2023 20:38:47 GMT
One thing that has to be remembered about the concept is that the tabletop RPG is not, and was never, canon.
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Post by xerrai on Sept 3, 2023 22:36:08 GMT
One thing that has to be remembered about the concept is that the tabletop RPG is not, and was never, canon. True. But part of the reason the wikia allows the information from the core rulebook to stick around (as opposed to ignoring it entirely) is because several aspects from the RPG like the locations, certain people, and so on came directly from Bioware itself and had to go through some sort of approval process before it was published. There was actually an interesting discussion back in the day on what should be considered canon and eventually resulted in a cautious banner appearing on certain pages. But the general mindset they seem to have now is that "the tabletop's core rulebook information is potentially canon until it is contradicted". Edited: For clarification.
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Post by gervaise21 on Sept 4, 2023 7:54:13 GMT
One thing that has to be remembered about the concept is that the tabletop RPG is not, and was never, canon. Nevertheless, as Xerrai points out, it was issued with the approval of Bioware and much of the information was taken from the codices associated with DAO. In the case of the information about the Dalish, I quoted it because this was only confirming what we had already been told in game both in codices and in conversation with actual Dalish. As I've also pointed out above, the writers are obviously aware that they have introduced ideas that are in direct contradiction with previous lore because they came up with the excuse that the clans are "growing apart" down the years. This was also an odd notion when the clans get together every 10 years to exchange news and reinforce the ties between them, specifically to ensure the continuity and preservation of their culture. What they should have said, perhaps, is that this is only found among the clans in Ferelden, the ones featured in DAO, which is where the Dalish originally fled. When increasing numbers meant that clans had to move away to other regions, they could no longer attend the Arlathvhen and this was the reason for the divergence from the traditional way of doing things. However, I still maintain that the tradition concerning the importance of always having a mage to act as Keeper and a desire to produce more mages to get closer to being "true elves" within the clan would be a fundamental belief that would not be compromised on. Now even the 3 mage idea in DAI was apparently interpreted differently by different clans. The member of the Chargers known as Dalish was allegedly told to get out and see the world when the clan exceeded three mages. This seemed odd, since the Dalish don't favour mixing with "the world" outside of their own people, so I think that something else lay behind that request for her to leave. After all, wouldn't it have made sense to suggest she simply sought out the nearest clan to see if they needed her services and then keep on until she found one that did? Still, asking an adult mage to make their own way in the world does make more sense than abandoning a young child to their fate. A reasonable explanation for the conduct of Minaeve's clan is that something else was behind their action but she misunderstood the reason. For example, perhaps their scouts warned of an approach of a large detachments of Templars. The Keeper said something to the effect of "we can't let them find so many mages here", so Minaeve was given a backpack and someone took her into the woods to hide. They then told her to wait there whilst they went back to the clan to see if it was safe to return but they never came back. Strangely enough, the Wiki says that the clans limit numbers in order to avoid attracting too much attention (from Templars?), which is odd because I don't recall that being given as a reason actually in game but would seem to be the interpretation the person making the entry put on it. Unless, someone from the Bioware team gave that as a reason at some point and I wasn't aware of it. Nevertheless, that is a rather odd reason for limiting the number of mages as you only attract attention if you are using your magic close to a human settlement. Most of the time the Dalish avoid human habitation and if they do want to approach a human village to do trade, then just send non mages to do this. Since Merrill says that the Templars are fully aware of the presence of mages within the clans, it wouldn't make much difference what the number was if the local Templars decided to crack down on it.
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Post by duskwanderer on Sept 4, 2023 13:33:40 GMT
I don't see it as much of an oddity: Each clan is different, and according to the lore, they also fight with other clans as well.
Part of the reason why the Templars do not go after the Keepers, I would think, would be the lack of a phylactery. Dalish themselves are reclusive by design, and are known to be savage fighters. If you couple that with the fact you'd be unable to track the way an apostate goes, I could see why they would be lower on the priority list, especially since Dalish tend to be skittish.
Dalish (the person) would've had some trouble finding other clans because it's not like she has some sort of magic beacon to find them. As far as we can tell, she doesn't have that spell. And a solitary elf, even a mage, alone is easy prey for anyone.
I see no evidence that the Dalish had another reason for abandoning Minaeve. The solution you describe would assume they would leave a child by themselves: There'd be no reason not to send one hunter, an adult, with the child. We also don't hear Minaeve mention a slaughter or conflict. Until I see other evidence, I'm going to figure that Minaeve was abandoned and the Dalish have their flaws. It really is kind of odd the hoops people will jump through to excuse their poor treatment of others.
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Post by gervaise21 on Sept 4, 2023 16:00:24 GMT
I don't see it as much of an oddity: Each clan is different, and according to the lore, they also fight with other clans as well. Where does it say this? The most I am aware of is voicing disapproval of the actions of another clan or their Keeper. For example, some isolationist clans disapproved of Gisharel sharing Dalish lore with human scholars but he justified his action saying that greater understanding might lead to greater tolerance of their presence and customs. The members of the Hahren'al (council of elders), may also condemn an individual such as Zathrian, or even perhaps an entire clan if their crime was serious enough, but I don't recall being told they ever actually band together to enforce it. Those who didn't approve of Gisharel simply shunned his clan as a result. There are also those who follow the Vir Banal'ras, the Way of Shadows, individuals who dedicate themselves to avenging the misdeeds of others. This would more commonly be directed at humans, although I appreciate they may have a blood debt against an individual or group in another clan. However, I don't recall it being stated anywhere that this would involve bloodshed between whole clans. Dalish (the person) would've had some trouble finding other clans because it's not like she has some sort of magic beacon to find them. As far as we can tell, she doesn't have that spell. And a solitary elf, even a mage, alone is easy prey for anyone. Any more than heading for a human settlement and hoping she received a friendly reception? She is a mage after all, despite her protestations that her staff is really a bow. It must have been really good fortune that she just happened to cross paths with the Chargers. She had been brought up out in the wilds, so she would be better fitted than most to survive out there. Also, the clans must have some way of finding one another, at least within Ferelden, because Lanaya was able to contact the others in order to support the Warden. My Dalish Inquisitor was also told that the clans were watching to see what happened as a result of our leadership, so there must have been some way for the various clans to keep in touch. I also never understood why the clan couldn't simply wait until the next Arlathven and find a place for them there, which is why I've assumed that only clans from Ferelden attend these and quite possibly Dalish was from an outlying clan in Orlais or Nevarra, which is why there wasn't another clan close at hand. There'd be no reason not to send one hunter, an adult, with the child. We also don't hear Minaeve mention a slaughter or conflict. I've already said that likely that is what they did do and they only intended leaving her alone whilst they checked it was safe to return. If they went back and were slaughtered, then Minaeve would never know of it and think they had simply abandoned her. It really is kind of odd the hoops people will jump through to excuse their poor treatment of others. I've already said my objections are based on the fact that their actions contradicted previously stated lore about the Dalish, where it was clear that every mage child would be valued above all others. Thedas is a harsh world, so I was not saying that ordinarily the Dalish aren't as brutal as everyone else and we know they can be at times. It is just illogical that on one hand they say they cannot possibly manage without a Keeper to lead each clan, that the Keeper is always a mage and that having magic is the sign of a true elf, and then on the other they abandon the youngest mage in the clan because she exceeds the arbitrary figure of 3. It just doesn't make sense.
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Post by Buckeldemon on Sept 4, 2023 16:13:39 GMT
The three mage rule was originally introduced in DA2 in connection with Merrill because apparently the Sabrae clan had not been her birth clan. So, because that clan had more than 3 mages (essentially the Keeper, the heir and a spare), they allowed Sabrae to adopt Merrill so they would not be without a successor to Marethari. Again, this tradition among the Dalish emphasised the importance of mages among the clans, not a fear of them or inability to cope if they exceeded the paltry figure of 3. Merrill does say that if a mage should become possessed, then the clan will be forced to hunt them down and kill them, even if the Keeper, but that does suggest that the non-mage members of the clan are able to deal with the situation should it arise. That's less of a rule and more going according to supply and demand, so to speak. I have not seen anything suggesting that Dalish mages grow on trees in droves and Merrill also suggests the exact opposite IIRC. Strangely enough, the Wiki says that the clans limit numbers in order to avoid attracting too much attention (from Templars?), which is odd because I don't recall that being given as a reason actually in game but would seem to be the interpretation the person making the entry put on it. Unless, someone from the Bioware team gave that as a reason at some point and I wasn't aware of it. Nevertheless, that is a rather odd reason for limiting the number of mages as you only attract attention if you are using your magic close to a human settlement. Most of the time the Dalish avoid human habitation and if they do want to approach a human village to do trade, then just send non mages to do this. Since Merrill says that the Templars are fully aware of the presence of mages within the clans, it wouldn't make much difference what the number was if the local Templars decided to crack down on it. Ah, thanks for remembering me. *swoops off* I don't see it as much of an oddity: Each clan is different, and according to the lore, they also fight with other clans as well. Part of the reason why the Templars do not go after the Keepers, I would think, would be the lack of a phylactery. Dalish themselves are reclusive by design, and are known to be savage fighters. If you couple that with the fact you'd be unable to track the way an apostate goes, I could see why they would be lower on the priority list, especially since Dalish tend to be skittish. Dalish (the person) would've had some trouble finding other clans because it's not like she has some sort of magic beacon to find them. As far as we can tell, she doesn't have that spell. And a solitary elf, even a mage, alone is easy prey for anyone. I see no evidence that the Dalish had another reason for abandoning Minaeve. The solution you describe would assume they would leave a child by themselves: There'd be no reason not to send one hunter, an adult, with the child. We also don't hear Minaeve mention a slaughter or conflict. Until I see other evidence, I'm going to figure that Minaeve was abandoned and the Dalish have their flaws. It really is kind of odd the hoops people will jump through to excuse their poor treatment of others. Yeah, it is bias alright. If that treatment occured, it is BS and, again, contradictory to all we have heard before. Also funny how many hoops people are willing to jump through to somehow think it is anything but a shitty retcon for 'Dalish bad' purposes, which is, again, a bit of a trend in DAI.
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Post by duskwanderer on Sept 5, 2023 1:45:35 GMT
I don't see it as much of an oddity: Each clan is different, and according to the lore, they also fight with other clans as well. Where does it say this? The most I am aware of is voicing disapproval of the actions of another clan or their Keeper. For example, some isolationist clans disapproved of Gisharel sharing Dalish lore with human scholars but he justified his action saying that greater understanding might lead to greater tolerance of their presence and customs. The members of the Hahren'al (council of elders), may also condemn an individual such as Zathrian, or even perhaps an entire clan if their crime was serious enough, but I don't recall being told they ever actually band together to enforce it. Those who didn't approve of Gisharel simply shunned his clan as a result. There are also those who follow the Vir Banal'ras, the Way of Shadows, individuals who dedicate themselves to avenging the misdeeds of others. This would more commonly be directed at humans, although I appreciate they may have a blood debt against an individual or group in another clan. However, I don't recall it being stated anywhere that this would involve bloodshed between whole clans. Dalish (the person) would've had some trouble finding other clans because it's not like she has some sort of magic beacon to find them. As far as we can tell, she doesn't have that spell. And a solitary elf, even a mage, alone is easy prey for anyone. Any more than heading for a human settlement and hoping she received a friendly reception? She is a mage after all, despite her protestations that her staff is really a bow. It must have been really good fortune that she just happened to cross paths with the Chargers. She had been brought up out in the wilds, so she would be better fitted than most to survive out there. Also, the clans must have some way of finding one another, at least within Ferelden, because Lanaya was able to contact the others in order to support the Warden. My Dalish Inquisitor was also told that the clans were watching to see what happened as a result of our leadership, so there must have been some way for the various clans to keep in touch. I also never understood why the clan couldn't simply wait until the next Arlathven and find a place for them there, which is why I've assumed that only clans from Ferelden attend these and quite possibly Dalish was from an outlying clan in Orlais or Nevarra, which is why there wasn't another clan close at hand. There'd be no reason not to send one hunter, an adult, with the child. We also don't hear Minaeve mention a slaughter or conflict. I've already said that likely that is what they did do and they only intended leaving her alone whilst they checked it was safe to return. If they went back and were slaughtered, then Minaeve would never know of it and think they had simply abandoned her. It really is kind of odd the hoops people will jump through to excuse their poor treatment of others. I've already said my objections are based on the fact that their actions contradicted previously stated lore about the Dalish, where it was clear that every mage child would be valued above all others. Thedas is a harsh world, so I was not saying that ordinarily the Dalish aren't as brutal as everyone else and we know they can be at times. It is just illogical that on one hand they say they cannot possibly manage without a Keeper to lead each clan, that the Keeper is always a mage and that having magic is the sign of a true elf, and then on the other they abandon the youngest mage in the clan because she exceeds the arbitrary figure of 3. It just doesn't make sense. I'm not suggesting outright war, but hostility is certainly common. Merrill comments that her clan often do not get along with each other. Further, the deals with the Sabrae clan for halla seem to have fallen through. I know that Dalish's poorly disguised mage abilities are a joke, but we cannot assume that she doesn't know how to hide them. We only see her in Inquisition at one point and never see time before it. If Minaeve was left with an adult, the adult would know why. It's highly unlikely some random dude is told to wait in the woods with a child for no reason. Further, where would this adult have gone? It's unlikely he would've left the child. Further, slaughters are neither quiet nor clean, they leave tons of evidence. Minaeve would've likely heard it, or the adult would've likely told her. This theory doesn't hold up when examined. Even moreso, Minaeve never mentions a guardian who abandoned her, she specifically calls out the clan. The lore wasn't established, though. Nowhere in the lore did it state that the Dalish fill their clans with mages. We don't see elf mages gleefully running away to join the Dalish, even in Origins. Attempting to use the TTRPG fails because the TTRPG is not, and was never, canon. Having three makes perfect sense if the only role for a mage is either Keeper, First, or Second.
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Post by duskwanderer on Sept 5, 2023 1:51:43 GMT
Yeah, it is bias alright. If that treatment occured, it is BS and, again, contradictory to all we have heard before. Also funny how many hoops people are willing to jump through to somehow think it is anything but a shitty retcon for 'Dalish bad' purposes, which is, again, a bit of a trend in DAI. I'm not seeing a single piece of evidence that justifies the fact that it is a "retcon." All I see is a poorly treated young woman that people are excusing because they don't want the elves to look bad.
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Post by gervaise21 on Sept 5, 2023 9:25:46 GMT
I'm not suggesting outright war, but hostility is certainly common. Merrill comments that her clan often do not get along with each other. That can be true of any clan or community. In fact it is more likely to occur if you are not under immediate threat. However, you can bet that differences will be forgotten in the face of external aggression. This will be the case whether the hostility is between individuals or clans. Note that the Dalish of Ferelden were even prepared to forget their hostility to humans in the face of the darkspawn threat and join the Warden's army, in which they showed a great deal more sense than the human nobles who were more concerned with fighting each other or saving their own skins than dealing with the problem creeping up from the south. Further, the deals with the Sabrae clan for halla seem to have fallen through. Since the halla are as precious to them as their own family, I imagine the Dalish in the Freemarches might be concerned how Sabrae managed to lose their entire herd and whether they would be safe to entrust with some of their own. Merrill seems to suggest they didn't halla didn't cope with sea voyage. This was an odd decision to take when they could simply have headed north and west away from the darkspawn (leaving aside Marethari had a specific reason to head for Sundermount that the rest of the clan and other Dalish wouldn't know about). Also, where did they acquire the money to buy their passage? I can't think that the ship captains would be interested in anything the Sabrae had to offer, except it is known that halla horn is prized among the nobility of Thedas. Did that have anything to do with the demise of the halla? May be the other clans had similar suspicions, even if they were unfounded. They might also question why the Sabrae fled Ferelden when the other clans stayed and fought. I've asked the same question myself. Also, why they insisted on camping next to a haunted mountain not that far from a major human settlement, both of which would present dangers to the halla and the former would definitely impact on their mental well being, when they could have moved further away from the coast into places that halla would be happier in. So, I can imagine the other clans might have grounds for not being particularly co-operative with the newcomers and an unwillingness to part with their halla. Minaeve never mentions a guardian who abandoned her, she specifically calls out the clan. I was only trying to reconcile what I know of the Dalish with Minaeve's story. As I've said repeatedly it doesn't make sense in the light of their culture where every clan member, but particularly children and mages, are valued. I know that Vivienne suggests it would be a matter of survival but that is just from a Circle point of view and Dalish specifically reject the Chantry traditions. If Minaeve's clan did do what she said, then they are an anomaly among the Dalish clans, not the norm. Whilst our Dalish Inquisitor can say their clan doesn't do this, it is almost implied that we were the anomaly not the other way around. The lore wasn't established, though. Nowhere in the lore did it state that the Dalish fill their clans with mages. They don't because mages in the clans, as among the humans, are rare unless you are specifically trying to breed them (and even in Tevinter Altus don't always end up with mage children), which would be well nigh impossible if they keep abandoning mage children in the woods. The reason for the original 3 mage rule is precisely because there was no guarantee a clan would produce enough mages to even replace their Keeper when they died, let alone have enough spares they could afford to ditch them entirely from their ethnic group. The reason elf mages aren't constantly fleeing to the clans is that they are seldom given the opportunity. No doubt as soon as a child in the alienage displays magical gifts they are reported to the authorities and scooped up by the Templars. Chantry teaching on the dangers of mages, plus the occasional bad experience when parents try to hide the child in the community or, as with Meredith's sister, they panic at the approach of their captors, would only reinforce the idea that mages, whether elven or human, are best locked up. For a city elf mage to reach the nearest clan, they would need to avoid incarceration to begin with, know where the clan might be, which is likely in wilderness far removed from the alienage and then successfully make their way there when they have no training in survival skills and no weapon beyond a knife (anything else being forbidden to alienage elves). It is rare enough for a non-mage alienage elf to risk the journey and successfully navigate the dangers, let alone a mage when everything is stacked against them. Having three makes perfect sense if the only role for a mage is either Keeper, First, or Second. Mages are useful as healers and are quite capable of other duties. I recall the halla keeper in DAO was a mage. I keep saying, the Dalish believe all elves were once magical (I think this may have been Merrill who said this) and they also believe that they need to recover their culture and remember what it is to be true elves for their gods to return. This belief does seem somewhat odd considering they also teach that their gods were imprisoned by Fen'Harel. So, I do wonder if the idea actually came from the followers of Fen'Harel because they knew that eventually he would return and restore the world of the elves, which would necessitate freeing the gods. This idea then got muddled down the years so the Dalish believed they had to demonstrate their worthiness as true elves before Fen'Harel would free them. This actually does make sense if it originated from followers of Fen'Harel. After all, Solas actually thinks that modern elves are inferior because they have lost contact with the Fade through the imposition of the Veil and if that contact was resumed they would indeed become true elves once more with their magical nature restored. Anyway, regardless of the origin of this belief of the Dalish, they do think they need to prove themselves worthy of the gods and, since they regard the gods as benign entities, that would not square with abandoning elf children in the wilds, whether mages or not. In their religion, Sylaise is the goddess of the hearth and home and protector of children. I also find it strange that the Dalish are presented as having such an attitude when other human cultures on the fringes of society do not. Back in DAO we learn that the Rivaini have wise women who lead their communities, who allow themselves to be deliberately possessed (presumably by benign spirits) in order to impart wisdom to their communities and they are so revered outside of the Chantry controlled cities that it was impossible for even the Qun to attempt to eradicate it. Why would the people of Rivain be so attached to their mages if having mages walking free in their community was so dangerous? Likewise the Avvar. We learn there that they actually use spirits to train their children, once again through deliberate possession. After the period of training, it is normal for the spirit to depart but we encounter a girl who did not want her companion to go. Now she was excluded from the community as a result of not following accepted customs but that was her choice as a young adult and she was only required to live on the fringes whilst she considered her position. Had she accepted the ruling that she relinquish her spirit, she would have been allowed back. Also, once again, we find the Augur as a respected and important member of the community, to whom other people go for guidance, in which they are assisted by communing with spirits. There was no mention of a limit being set on the number of mages they allowed in their community. Now something I noticed about World of Thedas, which was originally published shortly after DAI came out, is that it mentions that the Dalish avoid all magic associated with spirits. I don't recall this being mentioned in DAO or DA2 but is consistent with the attitude displayed by the clan in Masked Empire, although not apparently their Keeper. Merrill was shunned by her clan because she disobeyed the Keeper with regard to the eluvian and Marethari had also warned them against her. This may have had to do with her use of blood magic as well, although the DA2 codex on this seemed to contradict the previous idea that this could only be conducted through doing deals with demons. Now I can understand the Dalish prohibiting spirit magic because they had identified this seemed to increase the risk of possession but it does seem odd that other outlier human communities have not seen this as a problem. However, the Dalish Keepers do teach that Fen'Harel prowls the Fade ready to devour the souls of the unwary so may be that has something to do with it. Is there perhaps some residual memory that Fen'Harel can command spirits to attack on his behalf, as the Mortalitasi in TN found to their cost? The Dalish certainly believe that the ancient elven dreamers could do this from Uthenera. Do they fear that mages who have too much dealings with spirits may be vulnerable to recruitment by Fen'Harel? Is this a residual memory from ancient times of a prohibition made by the gods for exactly this reason? You see, I think this was an alteration in the lore and it was connected in some way with the developing story concerning the Evanuris in ancient times and the impact that the action of Fen'Harel had on modern day elves. This applies to both the fear of spirits and the imposition of a limit on the number of mages in a clan. It remains to be seen whether this has any impact going forward. In DA2 we were told the Dalish keep well clear of Tevinter, yet in Tevinter Nights the clans seem to be heading there or at least Arlathan Forest. Mind you, I'm not convinced that Strife and Irelin's clan are regular Dalish. Even if they are, I do believe Strife was ever a regular city elf.
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Post by colfoley on Sept 5, 2023 10:59:48 GMT
I didn't ever find the whole restrictions on mages within the Dalish clans to be too incongrous based on what we know of the lore and the Dalish in general. As I am pretty sure that part of the plan was to have these mage children be traded amongst the clans in order to balance out their numbers. And well while we can't say for sure on the specifics but it is distinctly possible that the Templars would be able to pick up on/ consider a larger threat if there were more mages in an area. And if there were more mages in an area would require a much larger response to.
But since this is the Crazy Theory Center the whole thing with Mineave did make me wonder if that isn't how Dalish form new clans. Now obviously not in her case but the basic idea is if there are more mages in a clan then the usual then part of them splits off to form a new clan...which would help keep Dalish numbers diversified and everything else. But then them leaving a child, while maybe extreme in its circumstance, does have a little cold hard logic to it and something I could see an individual clan doing.
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Post by gervaise21 on Sept 5, 2023 12:55:47 GMT
But since this is the Crazy Theory Center the whole thing with Mineave did make me wonder if that isn't how Dalish form new clans. Now this is not such a crazy theory. We know that the clans have split over time to avoid having too many in one area, both to avoid attracting the attention of hostile humans but also to avoid being wiped out should this occur. Since each clan would seem to require a Keeper and every Keeper is a mage, it follows that to start a new group would require at least one mage. Thus, if the mages become too numerous in the clan, it would make sense to suggest that the eldest, most experienced of these (the First) take a group of hunters and artisans to begin an offshoot clan. Then the Second would be promoted to First and so on. If the clan had as many as 5 mages, the departing Keeper would take one of the younger mages with them to act as their First. I have to admit I would find it amazing if any clan amassed as many as 5 mages, bearing mind I think it was said somewhere (I think by Merrill) that mages were on the decline in the clans. But then them leaving a child, while maybe extreme in its circumstance, does have a little cold hard logic to it and something I could see an individual clan doing. Bearing in mind what I say about their traditions regarding magic and overall drop in birth rate of mages, I think it would have to be a clan not in regular contact with the rest of the Dalish. I have to admit that the clans over in Orlais seem a peculiar lot, whose beliefs seem out of step with those in Ferelden. Thelhen had a completely different attitude towards city elves from that expressed by the story teller in DAO. Now either the Orlesian clans represented a branch that split off from the rest as they fled the advancing Exalted March, or they must be the result of splits that occurred later in history, when they chose to return to the Dales and attempt to re-establish themselves in their ancestral home. I have to admit that being in close proximity to Orlesians and the Chevaliers in particular, who seem to enjoy hunting elves for sport and training, would make anyone harder and more ruthless in their outlook as a result. By contrast, our clan in DAI had worked out that you can successfully play off one city state against the other in the Freemarches and probably had a more relaxed outlook as a result.
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Now stealin' more kidz.
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Post by Buckeldemon on Sept 5, 2023 18:49:05 GMT
Yeah, it is bias alright. If that treatment occured, it is BS and, again, contradictory to all we have heard before. Also funny how many hoops people are willing to jump through to somehow think it is anything but a shitty retcon for 'Dalish bad' purposes, which is, again, a bit of a trend in DAI. I'm not seeing a single piece of evidence that justifies the fact that it is a "retcon." All I see is a poorly treated young woman that people are excusing because they don't want the elves to look bad. Well, it is a clear inconsistency with a bunch of odd vibes. Very clear odd vibes. I could turn it around and say "all I'm seeing is people who want to see the Dalish look bad with a token shilling for the circles and templars." Bonus points for Mineave being also kinda inconsistent in her circle praise. I didn't ever find the whole restrictions on mages within the Dalish clans to be too incongrous based on what we know of the lore and the Dalish in general. As I am pretty sure that part of the plan was to have these mage children be traded amongst the clans in order to balance out their numbers. And well while we can't say for sure on the specifics but it is distinctly possible that the Templars would be able to pick up on/ consider a larger threat if there were more mages in an area. And if there were more mages in an area would require a much larger response to. But since this is the Crazy Theory Center the whole thing with Mineave did make me wonder if that isn't how Dalish form new clans. Now obviously not in her case but the basic idea is if there are more mages in a clan then the usual then part of them splits off to form a new clan...which would help keep Dalish numbers diversified and everything else. But then them leaving a child, while maybe extreme in its circumstance, does have a little cold hard logic to it and something I could see an individual clan doing. The funny thing is, that 'cold hard logic' is also inconsistent. Like, am I supposed to buy that a bunch of templars, that is those peeps who go by the thinking of 'better safe than sorry for the greater good" on a good day (and behaving like arbitrary brownshirts on a bad one) does not resort to working down the list of - mage
- elf - out in the forest, perhaps for days - therefore apparently not city elf and hence perhaps not properly indoctrinated in the andrastian way of thinking RE magic
- in distress
and then concluding that putting her to the sword is safer?
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Post by colfoley on Sept 5, 2023 19:55:04 GMT
I'm not seeing a single piece of evidence that justifies the fact that it is a "retcon." All I see is a poorly treated young woman that people are excusing because they don't want the elves to look bad. Well, it is a clear inconsistency with a bunch of odd vibes. Very clear odd vibes. I could turn it around and say "all I'm seeing is people who want to see the Dalish look bad with a token shilling for the circles and templars." Bonus points for Mineave being also kinda inconsistent in her circle praise. I didn't ever find the whole restrictions on mages within the Dalish clans to be too incongrous based on what we know of the lore and the Dalish in general. As I am pretty sure that part of the plan was to have these mage children be traded amongst the clans in order to balance out their numbers. And well while we can't say for sure on the specifics but it is distinctly possible that the Templars would be able to pick up on/ consider a larger threat if there were more mages in an area. And if there were more mages in an area would require a much larger response to. But since this is the Crazy Theory Center the whole thing with Mineave did make me wonder if that isn't how Dalish form new clans. Now obviously not in her case but the basic idea is if there are more mages in a clan then the usual then part of them splits off to form a new clan...which would help keep Dalish numbers diversified and everything else. But then them leaving a child, while maybe extreme in its circumstance, does have a little cold hard logic to it and something I could see an individual clan doing. The funny thing is, that 'cold hard logic' is also inconsistent. Like, am I supposed to buy that a bunch of templars, that is those peeps who go by the thinking of 'better safe than sorry for the greater good" on a good day (and behaving like arbitrary brownshirts on a bad one) does not resort to working down the list of - mage
- elf - out in the forest, perhaps for days - therefore apparently not city elf and hence perhaps not properly indoctrinated in the andrastian way of thinking RE magic
- in distress
and then concluding that putting her to the sword is safer?
not sure if my first point has much to do with yours but then it seems a little on the extreme side...but there could very easily be a hierarchy of threats within the Order. This was mentioned by Meril. A small clan won't draw too much attention but they will eventually. As to the rest, yes I expect you to believe that because otherwise there wouldn't be a circle system. Yes we've seen abuses inherent in the system and the abuses of extremists within the Order but the SOP of the order is to take apostate mages in...especially in cases when they are new. Maelificar and those who flee the circle are a bit more of a threat.
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Post by colfoley on Sept 5, 2023 20:18:00 GMT
Speaking of crazy though all we know is the story from Mineave's perspective who was admittedly a child. While the story does also trigger a sense of horror and sympathy within us it is still important to note we don't have the side of the clan itself, which is always crucial context.
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Post by duskwanderer on Sept 5, 2023 22:14:11 GMT
I'm not suggesting outright war, but hostility is certainly common. Merrill comments that her clan often do not get along with each other. That can be true of any clan or community. In fact it is more likely to occur if you are not under immediate threat. However, you can bet that differences will be forgotten in the face of external aggression. This will be the case whether the hostility is between individuals or clans. Note that the Dalish of Ferelden were even prepared to forget their hostility to humans in the face of the darkspawn threat and join the Warden's army, in which they showed a great deal more sense than the human nobles who were more concerned with fighting each other or saving their own skins than dealing with the problem creeping up from the south. Further, the deals with the Sabrae clan for halla seem to have fallen through. Since the halla are as precious to them as their own family, I imagine the Dalish in the Freemarches might be concerned how Sabrae managed to lose their entire herd and whether they would be safe to entrust with some of their own. Merrill seems to suggest they didn't halla didn't cope with sea voyage. This was an odd decision to take when they could simply have headed north and west away from the darkspawn (leaving aside Marethari had a specific reason to head for Sundermount that the rest of the clan and other Dalish wouldn't know about). Also, where did they acquire the money to buy their passage? I can't think that the ship captains would be interested in anything the Sabrae had to offer, except it is known that halla horn is prized among the nobility of Thedas. Did that have anything to do with the demise of the halla? May be the other clans had similar suspicions, even if they were unfounded. They might also question why the Sabrae fled Ferelden when the other clans stayed and fought. I've asked the same question myself. Also, why they insisted on camping next to a haunted mountain not that far from a major human settlement, both of which would present dangers to the halla and the former would definitely impact on their mental well being, when they could have moved further away from the coast into places that halla would be happier in. So, I can imagine the other clans might have grounds for not being particularly co-operative with the newcomers and an unwillingness to part with their halla. Minaeve never mentions a guardian who abandoned her, she specifically calls out the clan. I was only trying to reconcile what I know of the Dalish with Minaeve's story. As I've said repeatedly it doesn't make sense in the light of their culture where every clan member, but particularly children and mages, are valued. I know that Vivienne suggests it would be a matter of survival but that is just from a Circle point of view and Dalish specifically reject the Chantry traditions. If Minaeve's clan did do what she said, then they are an anomaly among the Dalish clans, not the norm. Whilst our Dalish Inquisitor can say their clan doesn't do this, it is almost implied that we were the anomaly not the other way around. The lore wasn't established, though. Nowhere in the lore did it state that the Dalish fill their clans with mages. They don't because mages in the clans, as among the humans, are rare unless you are specifically trying to breed them (and even in Tevinter Altus don't always end up with mage children), which would be well nigh impossible if they keep abandoning mage children in the woods. The reason for the original 3 mage rule is precisely because there was no guarantee a clan would produce enough mages to even replace their Keeper when they died, let alone have enough spares they could afford to ditch them entirely from their ethnic group. The reason elf mages aren't constantly fleeing to the clans is that they are seldom given the opportunity. No doubt as soon as a child in the alienage displays magical gifts they are reported to the authorities and scooped up by the Templars. Chantry teaching on the dangers of mages, plus the occasional bad experience when parents try to hide the child in the community or, as with Meredith's sister, they panic at the approach of their captors, would only reinforce the idea that mages, whether elven or human, are best locked up. For a city elf mage to reach the nearest clan, they would need to avoid incarceration to begin with, know where the clan might be, which is likely in wilderness far removed from the alienage and then successfully make their way there when they have no training in survival skills and no weapon beyond a knife (anything else being forbidden to alienage elves). It is rare enough for a non-mage alienage elf to risk the journey and successfully navigate the dangers, let alone a mage when everything is stacked against them. Having three makes perfect sense if the only role for a mage is either Keeper, First, or Second. Mages are useful as healers and are quite capable of other duties. I recall the halla keeper in DAO was a mage. I keep saying, the Dalish believe all elves were once magical (I think this may have been Merrill who said this) and they also believe that they need to recover their culture and remember what it is to be true elves for their gods to return. This belief does seem somewhat odd considering they also teach that their gods were imprisoned by Fen'Harel. So, I do wonder if the idea actually came from the followers of Fen'Harel because they knew that eventually he would return and restore the world of the elves, which would necessitate freeing the gods. This idea then got muddled down the years so the Dalish believed they had to demonstrate their worthiness as true elves before Fen'Harel would free them. This actually does make sense if it originated from followers of Fen'Harel. After all, Solas actually thinks that modern elves are inferior because they have lost contact with the Fade through the imposition of the Veil and if that contact was resumed they would indeed become true elves once more with their magical nature restored. Anyway, regardless of the origin of this belief of the Dalish, they do think they need to prove themselves worthy of the gods and, since they regard the gods as benign entities, that would not square with abandoning elf children in the wilds, whether mages or not. In their religion, Sylaise is the goddess of the hearth and home and protector of children. I also find it strange that the Dalish are presented as having such an attitude when other human cultures on the fringes of society do not. Back in DAO we learn that the Rivaini have wise women who lead their communities, who allow themselves to be deliberately possessed (presumably by benign spirits) in order to impart wisdom to their communities and they are so revered outside of the Chantry controlled cities that it was impossible for even the Qun to attempt to eradicate it. Why would the people of Rivain be so attached to their mages if having mages walking free in their community was so dangerous? Likewise the Avvar. We learn there that they actually use spirits to train their children, once again through deliberate possession. After the period of training, it is normal for the spirit to depart but we encounter a girl who did not want her companion to go. Now she was excluded from the community as a result of not following accepted customs but that was her choice as a young adult and she was only required to live on the fringes whilst she considered her position. Had she accepted the ruling that she relinquish her spirit, she would have been allowed back. Also, once again, we find the Augur as a respected and important member of the community, to whom other people go for guidance, in which they are assisted by communing with spirits. There was no mention of a limit being set on the number of mages they allowed in their community. Now something I noticed about World of Thedas, which was originally published shortly after DAI came out, is that it mentions that the Dalish avoid all magic associated with spirits. I don't recall this being mentioned in DAO or DA2 but is consistent with the attitude displayed by the clan in Masked Empire, although not apparently their Keeper. Merrill was shunned by her clan because she disobeyed the Keeper with regard to the eluvian and Marethari had also warned them against her. This may have had to do with her use of blood magic as well, although the DA2 codex on this seemed to contradict the previous idea that this could only be conducted through doing deals with demons. Now I can understand the Dalish prohibiting spirit magic because they had identified this seemed to increase the risk of possession but it does seem odd that other outlier human communities have not seen this as a problem. However, the Dalish Keepers do teach that Fen'Harel prowls the Fade ready to devour the souls of the unwary so may be that has something to do with it. Is there perhaps some residual memory that Fen'Harel can command spirits to attack on his behalf, as the Mortalitasi in TN found to their cost? The Dalish certainly believe that the ancient elven dreamers could do this from Uthenera. Do they fear that mages who have too much dealings with spirits may be vulnerable to recruitment by Fen'Harel? Is this a residual memory from ancient times of a prohibition made by the gods for exactly this reason? You see, I think this was an alteration in the lore and it was connected in some way with the developing story concerning the Evanuris in ancient times and the impact that the action of Fen'Harel had on modern day elves. This applies to both the fear of spirits and the imposition of a limit on the number of mages in a clan. It remains to be seen whether this has any impact going forward. In DA2 we were told the Dalish keep well clear of Tevinter, yet in Tevinter Nights the clans seem to be heading there or at least Arlathan Forest. Mind you, I'm not convinced that Strife and Irelin's clan are regular Dalish. Even if they are, I do believe Strife was ever a regular city elf. It's a pretty big assumption to make, and assumes externality without evidence. After all, the elves were pretty quick to abandon the humans when darkspawn were around. We only have one clan from the Inquisitor, and they are notably more tolerant, given how quick they are to speak and make deals with humans. You cannot assume it's an outlier with such flimsy evidence.
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Post by duskwanderer on Sept 5, 2023 22:15:07 GMT
I'm not seeing a single piece of evidence that justifies the fact that it is a "retcon." All I see is a poorly treated young woman that people are excusing because they don't want the elves to look bad. Well, it is a clear inconsistency with a bunch of odd vibes. Very clear odd vibes. I could turn it around and say "all I'm seeing is people who want to see the Dalish look bad with a token shilling for the circles and templars." Bonus points for Mineave being also kinda inconsistent in her circle praise. I didn't ever find the whole restrictions on mages within the Dalish clans to be too incongrous based on what we know of the lore and the Dalish in general. As I am pretty sure that part of the plan was to have these mage children be traded amongst the clans in order to balance out their numbers. And well while we can't say for sure on the specifics but it is distinctly possible that the Templars would be able to pick up on/ consider a larger threat if there were more mages in an area. And if there were more mages in an area would require a much larger response to. But since this is the Crazy Theory Center the whole thing with Mineave did make me wonder if that isn't how Dalish form new clans. Now obviously not in her case but the basic idea is if there are more mages in a clan then the usual then part of them splits off to form a new clan...which would help keep Dalish numbers diversified and everything else. But then them leaving a child, while maybe extreme in its circumstance, does have a little cold hard logic to it and something I could see an individual clan doing. The funny thing is, that 'cold hard logic' is also inconsistent. Like, am I supposed to buy that a bunch of templars, that is those peeps who go by the thinking of 'better safe than sorry for the greater good" on a good day (and behaving like arbitrary brownshirts on a bad one) does not resort to working down the list of - mage
- elf - out in the forest, perhaps for days - therefore apparently not city elf and hence perhaps not properly indoctrinated in the andrastian way of thinking RE magic
- in distress
and then concluding that putting her to the sword is safer?
What tokenism? The only thing Minaeve said is that the templars helped her. Wynne said the same thing.
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"Abso-fraggin-lutely!" ~ Captain John Sheridan and Satai Delenn
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Post by Absafraginlootly on Sept 6, 2023 0:47:27 GMT
The practise of abandoning a mage child in the woods is so at odds with the way the Ferelden and Free Marches clans we're familiar with act that I'm treating it as a behaviour either unique to one clan or to a handful of orlesian clans until/unless future games prove otherwise.
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Post by colfoley on Sept 6, 2023 1:17:47 GMT
The practise of abandoning a mage child in the woods is so at odds with the way the Ferelden and Free Marches clans we're familiar with act that I'm treating it as a behaviour either unique to one clan or to a handful of orlesian clans until/unless future games prove otherwise. honestly part of the problem is trying to assume universal standards of ethics and morality amongst the Dalish clans is probably a fool's errand. They are inherently individual because of the nature of their nomadic travel and isolation from one another. And it's not the only issue this is relevant. Afterall look at Maerethari's attitude towards Meril and her Eluvian experience vs that clan in Orlais gleefully making deals with demons for a piece of their history.
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Post by gervaise21 on Sept 6, 2023 8:39:17 GMT
We only have one clan from the Inquisitor, and they are notably more tolerant, given how quick they are to speak and make deals with humans. You cannot assume it's an outlier with such flimsy evidence. I must assume therefore that you have never played DAO or read the codices there. Both our clan, the Sabrae clan, and that of Zathrian broadly have the same attitude and customs as Lavellan in DAI, if you choose to play them that way, since I believe it is possible to adopt a different stance and response to others about the traditions of the Dalish. I played my Lavellan as a Dalish who was consistent with what I knew from DAO and DA2, since I thought the Dalish thought it important to maintain their traditions down the years, so even if the clan hadn't had contact with the Ferelden clans for many decades, even centuries, they would have kept to the traditions that were part of the Dalish before they left. Had they uncovered new lore about the ancient elves during that time, then this might have informed their behaviour to act or think differently from the other clans or simply have adapted their behaviour in response to local conditions. To give an example. Apparently, the clan(s) in Antiva have developed a practice of hanging puppets in the trees that move and moan in the wind to frighten off human intruders to their area, something that didn't seem part of Dalish customs down south. What I mentioned in my post was ideas that were published subsequent to the main game in DAI that seemed to introduce ideas I was unaware of and seemed peculiar when compared to other practitioners of magic outside of the Circle system. When even the Chantry Circles don't prohibit magic involving spirits, even if the Templars keep a wary eye on those that do, it does seem odd that WoT should suggest the Dalish do not perform any magic involving spirits because they believe all spirits are dangerous. So, there are no spirit healers among the Dalish, even though they are said to specialise in nature and healing magic. Now you can argue that their treatment of excess mages is consistent with their attitude to spirits if they regard mages at particular risk of possession but, to be honest, if that is the reason why keep mages in the clan at all? Surely any mage is a danger? Why are 4 mages in a clan more dangerous than 3 or 2? Why make the leader of the clan a mage and why insist that they should always be replaced by a mage? Since most of their healing "magic" is now restricted to herbal remedies, anyone can concoct those with the requisite knowledge. Of course, mages also have some very useful defensive magic based on nature spells, as evidenced by the Keeper specialisation, but would the number of times they are called upon to utilise such magic really be worth the risk of having them around the rest of the time? As I keep repeating, it is not that a particular culture wouldn't have certain practices that seem brutal and barbaric by our standards but to have such a paradoxical set of customs related to mages as have been attributed to the Dalish, when compared with the rest of Thedas, does point to writers coming up with new ideas without considering whether they contradict or make sense with respect to the old ones, particularly with respect to a culture where its members would rather endure any hardship and live on the fringes of society rather than surrender their traditional way of life. The Dales lasted long enough that they would have been able to establish rules about the use of magic back then and the degree of risk that mages posed to their community. Whilst the Keepers weren't the secular leaders, they were the priesthood of the religion, had a lot of influence on society and held the respect of the rest of the community, rather as the Augurs do in the Avvar. When the secular leaders were killed in the war, they assumed leadership of those that remained free, so it is understandable they would emphasise the importance of mages going forward and that their magic showed they were closer to their ancestors than the mundane members of the clan, which makes it even stranger they would advocate for placing a limit on their numbers. That is not the sort of idea you would wish to introduce if you want to maintain your status in society.
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Post by gervaise21 on Sept 6, 2023 9:15:12 GMT
After all, the elves were pretty quick to abandon the humans when darkspawn were around. Ah yes, the idea that the elves just stood by and watched whilst Montsimmard was overrun by darkspawn. Also, that they refused to help up north. Well, may be they just refused to be part of Drakon's army because once again a codex we were given in DAO appeared to contradict this. In that a clan was actually up in the Anderfels during the 2nd Blight when they were attacked by darkspawn. Plus, the darkspawn were appearing at various locations across Thedas, so who is to say the Emerald Knights weren't engaging darkspawn back home? Ameridan said that their leaders didn't want to team up with Drakon because he was "no better than Tevinter", which based on the history of him in WoT2 was completely true. In fact, as the grandson of a Tevinter Altus, he actually was Tevinter in everything but name. Hence his ideas about establishing an empire and state religion, whilst destroying any opposition or variants to it. The leaders in the Dales would have witnessed this and had probably started to regret ignoring what was going on among the humans tribes as none of their business. Essentially Tevinter had come to their part of the world and they had no wish to support it whatever Ameridan might say in Drakon's defense. Note that Drakon didn't head north until some ten years after Ameridan disappeared. If Ameridan was such a good friend, why didn't he at least send someone to find out what happened to him? Why wasn't he questioning if the Avarr were still a threat? Why didn't he officially warn the Dalish leaders since the Jaws of Hakkon would have had to cross the Dales to reach Orlais and if Ameridan had warned them, it might explain why they didn't want to deplete their defenses to join an army commanded by Drakon. How do you know they didn't send help separately to Montsimmard? May be the elves arrived too late to do any good so decided to hold the line where they were, bearing in mind that Montsimmard lies well outside the Dales so they would have had to have traveled to the location in response to the danger, rather than simply happen on it by accident and then refuse to help. In fact, most evidence seems to contradict the idea that the Dalish abandoned the humans to the darkspawn. The Grey Wardens actually have treaties with the Dalish that they can call on them in the event of a Blight and which the Dalish honour once asked to. Zathrian might have used us to do his dirty work before he was willing to contact the other clans on our behalf but they responded once he or Lanaya did. So, the Dalish as a whole were honourable in this respect. That makes the whole Montsimmard business sound suspect to me and likely another bit of biased reporting of history. If the Chantry were willing to erase Shartan from history, why not every other instance when the elves of the Dales weren't the villains? Notice how when we uncover the truth about Red Crossing, the reaction of the Dalish is to try and build bridges with the human community, whilst the reaction of the Chantry is to use it as propaganda to continue to vilify them. Likewise, the truth about Ameridan. Leliana, the future Divine, and Josephine are willing to attempt to buy off his clan for political purposes. Only Cullen says that allowing the human nobles who have been profiting from lies down the years to continue to do so would be wrong. So, I think it is reasonable to leave it open to question as to what really happened during the 2nd Blight.
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Post by gervaise21 on Sept 6, 2023 9:24:41 GMT
The practise of abandoning a mage child in the woods is so at odds with the way the Ferelden and Free Marches clans we're familiar with act that I'm treating it as a behaviour either unique to one clan or to a handful of orlesian clans until/unless future games prove otherwise. As my numerous posts have indicated, I'm with you on this. It seems something likely confined to either one clan or group of clans in a particular region. They are inherently individual because of the nature of their nomadic travel and isolation from one another. I've also answered this one. To suggest something as important as this would not be one of the customs they established early on and then would preserve over time, does seem unlikely. There are plenty of nomadic tribes in real life from the same ethnic group, who follow the same traditions as their counterparts in other locations even though it may be years since they came into contact with one another. That is how it is possible to identify that they share the same origins. Oral traditions can be just as strong as written ones and if preservation and transmission of traditions is important to their culture then they will keep to them faithfully. The Dalish also have the Arlathvhen at which they come together every 10 years to renew bonds between them and ensure continuity of culture and consistency of lore. I have questioned how easy it would be for those outside Ferelden to attend these, so it is possible they only have regional gatherings rather than the whole population of Dalish, leading to regional variations in culture, although the fact that our Keeper heard about the human Conclave and was able to send a representative to spy on it, shows that it might be possible for individual clans to do the same for the Arlathvhen. However, I am prepared to accept regional variants occurring outside of the main body of the Dalish in Ferelden, depending on how long the clan(s) have been separated from them.
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Post by catcher on Sept 6, 2023 21:15:48 GMT
Quick one that I just thought of in the last day or so at random: Leliana is also secretly dragon-blooded. In the alternate history of In Hushed Whispers, she is noted to be particularly resistant to the Taint and be able to give some degree of that resistance to others via her blood and skin (Note: Studies on the Blight).
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Post by catcher on Sept 6, 2023 21:29:29 GMT
Deleted inadvertent double-post.
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Post by gervaise21 on Sept 7, 2023 9:02:06 GMT
Leliana is also secretly dragon-blooded. Anything is possible once that idea was introduced with regard to Alistair. Note also the lore concerning Andraste's descendants and that apparently her mother foresaw her daughter's destiny in the womb, or at least that she would die young, as revealed in the Gauntlet. She got her elven sword that she gave to Shartan from her mother. So, at the very least, I think Andraste's line was elf bloodied. Could it be that it was dragon bloodied too? In which case, Leliana could be one of her descendants, since the lore says that each generation only gives birth to daughters and so the family heritage has been concealed by them constantly taking the name of the male line. Even without the Andraste connection, it might be supposed that Calenhad, or his subsequent descendants, may have had offspring other than those in the direct line, or out of wedlock, so Leliana could be one of these seeing as her origins lay in Ferelden not Orlais. That would explain her unusual resistance to the Blight. However, a more mundane explanation would be her repeated exposure to it whilst following the Warden gave some sort of natural immunity. It is a pity they never pursued this further in order to give an explanation for this aspect of her but since it was revealed via an optional branch of the story, presumably they didn't feel the need to explain the reason for it. It is a bit like the alternative path where we hear Corypheus's own reflections that give rise to questions that are never answered. Or the fact that his choice of vessel for the Well of Sorrows is just random depending on which path you choose to take, when the selection of Calpernia makes far more sense, as does perfecting the binding ritual on her old master. Sometimes what seems like a significant detail is just a bit of fluff and the writers never considered the need to explain why it might be. It is possible that they intended that codex to explain why they kept her alive for so long, rather than anything else. Since Alexius was trying to find a way to save Felix, discovering she was resistant to the taint would focus his attention on her.
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