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Post by duskwanderer on Sept 9, 2023 2:09:58 GMT
We only have one clan from the Inquisitor, and they are notably more tolerant, given how quick they are to speak and make deals with humans. You cannot assume it's an outlier with such flimsy evidence. I must assume therefore that you have never played DAO or read the codices there. Both our clan, the Sabrae clan, and that of Zathrian broadly have the same attitude and customs as Lavellan in DAI, if you choose to play them that way, since I believe it is possible to adopt a different stance and response to others about the traditions of the Dalish. I played my Lavellan as a Dalish who was consistent with what I knew from DAO and DA2, since I thought the Dalish thought it important to maintain their traditions down the years, so even if the clan hadn't had contact with the Ferelden clans for many decades, even centuries, they would have kept to the traditions that were part of the Dalish before they left. Had they uncovered new lore about the ancient elves during that time, then this might have informed their behaviour to act or think differently from the other clans or simply have adapted their behaviour in response to local conditions. To give an example. Apparently, the clan(s) in Antiva have developed a practice of hanging puppets in the trees that move and moan in the wind to frighten off human intruders to their area, something that didn't seem part of Dalish customs down south. What I mentioned in my post was ideas that were published subsequent to the main game in DAI that seemed to introduce ideas I was unaware of and seemed peculiar when compared to other practitioners of magic outside of the Circle system. When even the Chantry Circles don't prohibit magic involving spirits, even if the Templars keep a wary eye on those that do, it does seem odd that WoT should suggest the Dalish do not perform any magic involving spirits because they believe all spirits are dangerous. So, there are no spirit healers among the Dalish, even though they are said to specialise in nature and healing magic. Now you can argue that their treatment of excess mages is consistent with their attitude to spirits if they regard mages at particular risk of possession but, to be honest, if that is the reason why keep mages in the clan at all? Surely any mage is a danger? Why are 4 mages in a clan more dangerous than 3 or 2? Why make the leader of the clan a mage and why insist that they should always be replaced by a mage? Since most of their healing "magic" is now restricted to herbal remedies, anyone can concoct those with the requisite knowledge. Of course, mages also have some very useful defensive magic based on nature spells, as evidenced by the Keeper specialisation, but would the number of times they are called upon to utilise such magic really be worth the risk of having them around the rest of the time? As I keep repeating, it is not that a particular culture wouldn't have certain practices that seem brutal and barbaric by our standards but to have such a paradoxical set of customs related to mages as have been attributed to the Dalish, when compared with the rest of Thedas, does point to writers coming up with new ideas without considering whether they contradict or make sense with respect to the old ones, particularly with respect to a culture where its members would rather endure any hardship and live on the fringes of society rather than surrender their traditional way of life. The Dales lasted long enough that they would have been able to establish rules about the use of magic back then and the degree of risk that mages posed to their community. Whilst the Keepers weren't the secular leaders, they were the priesthood of the religion, had a lot of influence on society and held the respect of the rest of the community, rather as the Augurs do in the Avvar. When the secular leaders were killed in the war, they assumed leadership of those that remained free, so it is understandable they would emphasise the importance of mages going forward and that their magic showed they were closer to their ancestors than the mundane members of the clan, which makes it even stranger they would advocate for placing a limit on their numbers. That is not the sort of idea you would wish to introduce if you want to maintain your status in society. Are you certain it is you who never played it? Tamlen contradicts you. As does the attitude of the Dalish at the gates of the clan. I've noticed your frequent excuses for the elves, as is all the statements starting with "I" and "the way I played". Dear friend, your opinion is not fact and when the game contradicts, you must accept that it is you who are in error. You're making a fair amount of assumptions that "nature" and healing magic are intrinsic. We see only minor healing with the Keeper specialization, far weaker than even basic healing spells of the Circle. The healing plants we see in the game do not come from magic: Elfroot is called as such because humans who trade with elves find it common and associate it with elves. There was no magic of the elves that led elfroot to be used in healing.
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Post by duskwanderer on Sept 9, 2023 2:15:01 GMT
After all, the elves were pretty quick to abandon the humans when darkspawn were around. Ah yes, the idea that the elves just stood by and watched whilst Montsimmard was overrun by darkspawn. Also, that they refused to help up north. Well, may be they just refused to be part of Drakon's army because once again a codex we were given in DAO appeared to contradict this. In that a clan was actually up in the Anderfels during the 2nd Blight when they were attacked by darkspawn. Plus, the darkspawn were appearing at various locations across Thedas, so who is to say the Emerald Knights weren't engaging darkspawn back home? Ameridan said that their leaders didn't want to team up with Drakon because he was "no better than Tevinter", which based on the history of him in WoT2 was completely true. In fact, as the grandson of a Tevinter Altus, he actually was Tevinter in everything but name. Hence his ideas about establishing an empire and state religion, whilst destroying any opposition or variants to it. The leaders in the Dales would have witnessed this and had probably started to regret ignoring what was going on among the humans tribes as none of their business. Essentially Tevinter had come to their part of the world and they had no wish to support it whatever Ameridan might say in Drakon's defense. Note that Drakon didn't head north until some ten years after Ameridan disappeared. If Ameridan was such a good friend, why didn't he at least send someone to find out what happened to him? Why wasn't he questioning if the Avarr were still a threat? Why didn't he officially warn the Dalish leaders since the Jaws of Hakkon would have had to cross the Dales to reach Orlais and if Ameridan had warned them, it might explain why they didn't want to deplete their defenses to join an army commanded by Drakon. How do you know they didn't send help separately to Montsimmard? May be the elves arrived too late to do any good so decided to hold the line where they were, bearing in mind that Montsimmard lies well outside the Dales so they would have had to have traveled to the location in response to the danger, rather than simply happen on it by accident and then refuse to help. In fact, most evidence seems to contradict the idea that the Dalish abandoned the humans to the darkspawn. The Grey Wardens actually have treaties with the Dalish that they can call on them in the event of a Blight and which the Dalish honour once asked to. Zathrian might have used us to do his dirty work before he was willing to contact the other clans on our behalf but they responded once he or Lanaya did. So, the Dalish as a whole were honourable in this respect. That makes the whole Montsimmard business sound suspect to me and likely another bit of biased reporting of history. If the Chantry were willing to erase Shartan from history, why not every other instance when the elves of the Dales weren't the villains? Notice how when we uncover the truth about Red Crossing, the reaction of the Dalish is to try and build bridges with the human community, whilst the reaction of the Chantry is to use it as propaganda to continue to vilify them. Likewise, the truth about Ameridan. Leliana, the future Divine, and Josephine are willing to attempt to buy off his clan for political purposes. Only Cullen says that allowing the human nobles who have been profiting from lies down the years to continue to do so would be wrong. So, I think it is reasonable to leave it open to question as to what really happened during the 2nd Blight. We see no evidence of what you described. Ameridan himself discusses the thought processes, and we see no evidence of elves marching to attack the darkspawn. Again, you place a lot of weight on your theories, weighted heavily in your favor of elves and hatred of humans, rather than anything based on lore. Even more, you don't have any evidence as to "when" those treaties were created, do you? The fact that the treaties were in Ferelden suggests that Ferelden existed in a stable enough state for the Wardens to be stationed there. During the Second Blight, Ferelden wasn't a country. I'm willing to listen to evidence of what happened with the elves during the Blight. But given how even the elves themselves do not discuss fighting the darkspawn, even in their oral traditions, I must conclude they did not consider it noteworthy. That's fine, not everything is. But given how the elves are willing to butcher their own history in order to blame humans for something the elves did, as we saw with Red Crossing, I must conclude the elves are not as innocent as you fervently claim. Your own theory is not evidence.
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Post by xerrai on Sept 9, 2023 4:00:17 GMT
I'm not so sure the Montsimmard blight incident is all that complicated. It frankly doesn't take a lot for one nation to 'abandon' another during a Blight (just look at Orlais and Tevinter during the Third Blight. They even started conquering when the Blight was over since certain nations were weakened). Heck, I'd even argue just getting other nations to give a sh*t is half of the battle when any Blight occurs. The reasons for such abandonment can be as simple as not caring about the other party, genuinely thinking the situation is unwinnable, or dealing with their own incursions on the homefront. The only notable thing about the elves' situation is that they were mobilized not too far away and they (understandably, IMO) likely had a low opinion of Drakon and his expansionism. If humans can abandon other nations for less, why can't the elves abandon Orlais? There is a long history of distrust there. [...]The healing plants we see in the game do not come from magic: Elfroot is called as such because humans who trade with elves find it common and associate it with elves. There was no magic of the elves that led elfroot to be used in healing. Yes and no. Both the codex and WoT make references to certain plants having magical properties, the origin of which has not been clearly defined. But the most common theory is that this is due to some sort of interplay between Fade, lyrium, and/or nature. It's either that or certain plants derive magic from an as-of-yet unknown source, though it presumably depends on the plant in question. And then there's WoT volume 1 specifically saying "Magic courses through every living being in Thedas. Some even believe it is the power that gives all beings life". I usually wave it away as the writers trying too hard to explain a healing potion's magicey-ness with instant healing, but I'd argue there is enough for an argument to be made that all plants/animals hold a trace of magic that can make itself known through certain circumstances (e.g alchemy). In the case of elfroot however, we know that the elves of the Arlathan were the first ones to discover their healing properties according to the Origins codex entry. So the name probably came from that (and probably the pointed-looking leaves?). Edit: While we are on the topic, Keepers being associated with healing is mostly a result of WoT vol 2. rather than anything in the game itself. "Their spells have evolved to be deeply rooted in nature, manipulating earthly forces with a heavy emphasis on herbalism and healing".
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Post by gervaise21 on Sept 9, 2023 8:42:29 GMT
Even more, you don't have any evidence as to "when" those treaties were created, do you? The fact that the treaties were in Ferelden suggests that Ferelden existed in a stable enough state for the Wardens to be stationed there. During the Second Blight, Ferelden wasn't a country. Which is all the more reason why those treaties were made by the Wardens with the Dalish generally rather than those in a specific country. Calenhad didn't unite Ferelden as a nation until after the 4th Blight. The area of Ferelden was largely unaffected during that Blight. This was also the case with Orlais and the majority of Tevinter, which is why they didn't bother to send any troops officially to help out. As Xerrai points out, they "helped" during the 3rd Blight in the Freemarches, but only after pressure from the Grey Wardens to do so, only to remain in occupation of those areas once the darkspawn had been defeated and driven back underground. In fact, according to WoT2, the only reason Drakon headed north in the 2nd Blight was that he was hoping to make territorial gains from Tevinter proper but then turned aside at the call for assistance from the Grey Wardens in the Anderfels and annexed that nation instead. Hardly an example of selfless altruism. So, may be the reason neither Orlais nor Tevinter offered help in the 4th Blight is that they didn't see any profit from doing so. Why aren't you accusing them of abandoning their fellow human nations? Anyway, so far as the treaties with the Dalish went, how did the Grey Wardens organise this when the clans were scattered across southern Thedas, the 10 years gathering was a well guarded secret and there had been no sign of darkspawn threatening that part of Thedas since the 2nd Blight? The Grey Wardens hadn't even officially been allowed to operate in Ferelden for the 200 years before the 5th Blight. The other treaties were with the Circle generally, not just the one in Ferelden, and with the dwarves who had a long standing relationship with the Grey Wardens. Thus, it seems feasible to me that the treaty with the Dalish was originally drawn up whilst the Dales was still a nation and that is why all clans still felt compelled to honour it. May be the Grey Wardens did this so a situation like Montsimmard would not occur again as they would be the ones sending out the call for assistance rather than a human leader who was regarded with suspicion. Again, you place a lot of weight on your theories, weighted heavily in your favor of elves and hatred of humans, rather than anything based on lore. I don't hate humans, whatever gave you that impression? I hate the hypocrisy of the Chantry on many issues and think Drakon was a tyrant. That is based on countless evidence in game and the associated lore books. I don't generally play humans because I find it boring to be what I am in real life and I prefer not to be part of the corrupt, ruling elite. This generally places me at a disadvantage in the setting and puts my character, whether elf, surface dwarf or vashoth, further down the social scale. Note how every game has had the human PC come from a noble family, even if Hawke started out as a penniless refugee the reason they head for Kirkwall is because of their mother's link with a noble family there. In DAO you are either a Cousland, the second most important family in Ferelden, or a mage from the Amell family, and thus related to Hawke. In DAI you are a Trevellyan, an important noble family in the Freemarches. If I had been playing a peasant from Orlais, I would likely have even more reason to hate the nobility and the Chantry's support of them than the Dalish. I don't support everything the Dalish do but I don't recognise the clan in Masked Empire as being genuine Dalish. This isn't about their hostility to humans, their cruel custom when it comes to captives or attitude to magic (although as I pointed out previously Thelhen would have welcomed a mage) but their attitude towards city elves, which is in direct contradiction from what is said in DAO. Thelhen regards city elves as wholly corrupted by their contact with humans and no longer part of his people. However, I will admit that if his only contact with city elves was confined to those, like Briala, who had been caught up in the Game, then his attitude might be understandable as her attitude had been warped by her experience. I imagine it was a similar story back in ancient times, particularly if the humans around at that time had been recruited by Fen'Harel into his rebellion, which is likely considering the only use the Evanuris would have had for them would be as slaves or sport. This would explain why there was an association in the lore of the Dalish between the arrival of humans, a change in attitude in some of the elves and their loss of immortality. In DAO, the attitude is that the city elves are not part of their people so long as they are content to accept human rule and follow their customs but once the city elf rejects this, then the Dalish are happy to accept them into their community. It is possible that this was the same for Thelhen but it just didn't come across like that to Briala (or the reader). She thought he should care about the elves who were still living in the cities but, to be honest, why should he? His responsibility is towards his clan and by extension the survival of the Dalish as a whole. How would involving himself in the politics of a neighbouring hostile human state help with this? If the city elves weren't capable of winning on their own, then the addition of around 50 or so Dalish would not make any difference. They are separate from him culturally in the same way as humans in one part of Thedas are different from those in another part, even though they may have the same origins back in time. Bear in mind that Thelhen and his clan did help Celene's party when Felassan made them aware of their presence and saved them from the sylvans. Yet, just because he didn't seem inclined to extend his help any further with their cause, Briala saw fit to abandon them to being torn apart by a demon. So, how was she any different to him when it comes to those who are not your people? It is also said in the Dalish origin that the Sabrae clan at least recognise that if ever they should have another homeland, perhaps the city elves will be able to teach them something about how to co-exist with their human neighbours and that may also be true about those who flee to the clans in the wilds. To be honest, I would imagine that accepting city elves into the clans would be pragmatic as much as anything else in order to get a injection of new blood and bolster numbers. In Masked Empire, Celene noted that there were few children in Thelhen's clan and I seem to recall Merrill also makes some mention of falling birth rates (or was that just mages?), so it would seem the clans have a reason to be ultra careful about involving themselves in battles that are not their own. I would point out in this respect that one bad decision on the part of the Dalish Inquisitor can get their whole clan wiped out. First run that is what happened to me. I successfully negotiated the first two stages. However, when Leliana suggested sneaking Dalish hunters into the city to join with the city elf resistance and take out the human noble, I thought that was bound to backfire when their identity was discovered, so I went with direct action by Cullen instead with Inquisition forces in order to destroy the red lyrium supplies. Turned out that was a big mistake because whilst we succeeded in stopping the flow of red lyrium, the humans citizens continued to blame the elves for the trouble and killed them all, including Clan Lavellan. I still don't understand how that made sense, seeing as the human nobles still blamed the elves for the death of their leader in the successful outcome but opted to flee the city instead of fighting back. Our success apparently depended on us showing the human merchants and labourers the evidence of the red lyrium, so why couldn't Cullen's soldiers do this? Why would the citizens believe a bunch of rebellious elves and not Inquisition soldiers? Also, since our clan wasn't inside the city, why didn't they just flee with the Inquisition soldiers to protect them? So I've always felt they used some dodgy logic in making the War Table resolve the way it did. I also felt pretty annoyed when I discovered this was the only personal War Table mission that resulted in such fatalities. Hence, the feeling that the writers had something against the Dalish. I also have never understood how our Keeper heard of the Conclave out in the wilds in the Freemarches or why they thought it necessary to send one of their clan all the way to Haven. Why couldn't they have made it a Dalish clan in Ferelden? That would have made more sense as they might be more directly affected by the outcome. To be honest, though, I've always felt a city elf would have been a better fit as they would have a valid reason to be there as a servant or possibly a Circle mage. Lavellan should have stuck out like a sore thumb with their vallaslin and been prevented from entering the actual Conclave, so should never have got anywhere near the Divine. Security was really lax.
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Post by gervaise21 on Sept 9, 2023 14:43:25 GMT
Anyway, leaving the Dalish to one side, all that talk about the Blights has got me thinking again about the GREY WARDENS and their likely involvement in DA:D. They were one of the outstanding plot threads from the epilogue to DAI, there was a lot of concept art that looked like the Anderfels or Weisshaupt Fortress and, of course, there was that "leak" back at the beginning of the year that seemed to feature something happening at Grey Warden HQ involving darkspawn.
So, do you think it is going to involve one or more of the Old Gods? Or what about another intelligent darkspawn, since to date we have only accounted for 3 of the Magisters Sidereal, Corypheus, the Architect and one that was allegedly eaten.
Is there something specific to the Anderfels that makes it a beacon for the darkspawn? Or is it the presence of the Grey Wardens themselves? The 5th Blight was something of an outlier to the rest, since there was apparently no emergence of darkspawn anywhere else in Thedas to signal a true Blight had begun. This was contrary to what was experienced in the previous Blights, where there were outbreaks across Thedas apparently unconnected with the location of the Arch-demon.
Dumat circulated around the Silent Plains, I assume since that is where he met his demise, whilst there were outbreaks of darkspawn across Thedas from the Anderfels to Ferelden but with Tevinter particularly badly affected.
Zazikel actually emerged in the Anderfels in the 2nd Blight but darkspawn were found in southern and northern Orlais, the western Freemarches, in Ferelden and across the Imperium where they laid siege to Minrathous. Eventually Zazikel was killed near Starkhaven, so clearly did move cross country during the course of the Blight.
I am not sure exactly where Toth emerged in the 3rd Blight but once again Montsimmard was targeted in southern Orlais whilst they also attacked the cities of southern Tevinter around the Nocen Sea before moving on through what later became Nevarra and into the Freemarches. Toth was finally killed near Hunters Fell, which suggests he probably stayed pretty much in that general area. I wonder if there were any darkspawn in the Anderfels this time?
Andoral emerged in Antiva and seems to have based itself there throughout the 4th Blight, although the darkspawn moved through the Freemarches from east to west and also in the Anderfels. However, Andoral was killed above Rialto Bay, so didn't seem to go much beyond the general region of Antiva/the Freemarches. Also, Orlais, Ferelden and the majority of Tevinter were unaffected.
It may be that since we ended the 5th Blight so quickly, there wasn't enough time for darkspawn to emerge elsewhere but it does seem that darkspawn numbers may have reduced over time since they were much less widespread in the 3rd and 4th Blights than in the first 2. Alternatively, could it be that they generally stayed in the area of one particular Old God, which then stopped singing to them when it detected one of its fellows had broken free? In other words the various Old Gods were able to communicate with one another in some way or at least had some sort of awareness of what was going on? As each Old God in turn was freed, the darkspawn in that area followed them to the surface and there was nothing to entice them back underground in that location once the Arch-demon was killed but they had to travel across to the nearest Old God, which gradually become harder to find. This could account for why there was such a long interval between the 4th and 5th Blights.*
However, there always seems to be a heavy concentration of darkspawn beneath the Anderfels, with the surface having never really recovered from the 1st Blight because of their constant breakouts on the surface. Are they drawn there by the presence of Weisshaupt? Or is there some other reason for this?
EDIT: * I forgot to mention that the Blights have also successively become shorter in duration. The 1st Blight lasted 200 years, admittedly partly because of not knowing how to end them, but nevertheless it still took the Grey Wardens 100 years from their foundation to do so. The 2nd Blight lasted 80 years, the 3rd Blight 15 years and the 4th Blight 10 years. Was this reduction in time purely because the Grey Wardens had become more proficient in organising a resistance and forcing the Arch-demon into a fatal confrontation? Or were the darkspawn becoming less numerous? People thought so many darkspawn were killed in the 4th Blight that they thought they might never return, yet relatively speaking they had less of an impact on Thedas as a whole compared with previous ones, certainly the 1st and the 2nd. Mind you, I find it hard to believe they were that numerous in the 1st Blight or it is surprising that more of Thedas wasn't permanently blighted, bearing in mind the state of Lothering after only 1 year of having darkspawn making their base there.
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Post by mrobnoxiousuk on Sept 11, 2023 9:14:07 GMT
What if instead of a crazy hallucination distilled from the febrile booze addled mindscape of Oghren,Schleets were real and this is the true reason the Dreadwolf sundered the fade from the world.Now they are weak and realities must be merged to finish them off once and for all.
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Post by fenalaslavellan on Sept 12, 2023 2:12:36 GMT
I've thought about this for ages, indeed it was an odd call to make clan Lavellan be from the Free Marches, just like Adaar/Trevelyan/Cadash. I guess that was Bioware's only reasoning, having the new protag always be someone from the region of the previous game.
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Post by gervaise21 on Sept 12, 2023 8:47:11 GMT
I guess that was Bioware's only reasoning, having the new protag always be someone from the region of the previous game. I know people have assumed this must be the reason but it seems very odd if it were the case. It would also mean our new hero up in Tevinter would have to be from Orlais or Ferelden (since Skyhold sort of borders both). I sincerely hope not, particularly Orlais, since being forced to have that ridiculous accent the whole game would set my teeth on edge. Besides the Freemarches may be a region but it is made up of independent city states, each with their own ruler and individual character, so Kirkwall was no more indicative of the Freemarches than Ostwick or any other city. If our new hero's origins do lie in the south, then that makes it more likely that we will start out as a slave, having been kidnapped into service as a child (which would remove the need for a region specific accent). There was a connection between the human Inquisitor and the Circles, whether a mage or not, that made the link with the Freemarches more understandable in the light of the first act concentrating on resolving the mage/Templar issue. Ferelden's Circle was severely impacted by the events of DAO, whilst Orlais was closely connected with the actual commencement of the rebellion by both sides against the Chantry, even though the epilogue to DA2 suggested otherwise, so perhaps making the connection to the Freemarches allowed for the possibility of a more neutral stance by the PC in that conflict and also in the political decisions in subsequent acts. A lot of the dialogue would seem to have been written with a human Inquisitor in mind, with the odd bit of race specific dialogue to make it appear they had made a distinction between them. In fact, the Dalish background is the only one that really sticks out as being odd. The dwarf is a member of the Carta, who are based in Kirkwall and no doubt they would be interested in the outcome of the Conclave, having probably being profiteering from the conflict. The vashoth is part of a mercenary band employed to give added security to the Conclave and once again it may have been thought that a mercenary group from the Freemarches was less likely to be compromised from their contacts among the nobility. Only a Dalish clan from the wilds of the Freemarches really had no reason to know about the Conclave, much less be interested in the outcome, but I suppose that having made every other background from the Freemarches, they just thought it easier to go with the general trend.
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Post by fenalaslavellan on Sept 13, 2023 1:04:45 GMT
I guess that was Bioware's only reasoning, having the new protag always be someone from the region of the previous game. I know people have assumed this must be the reason but it seems very odd if it were the case. It would also mean our new hero up in Tevinter would have to be from Orlais or Ferelden (since Skyhold sort of borders both). I sincerely hope not, particularly Orlais, since being forced to have that ridiculous accent the whole game would set my teeth on edge. Besides the Freemarches may be a region but it is made up of independent city states, each with their own ruler and individual character, so Kirkwall was no more indicative of the Freemarches than Ostwick or any other city. If our new hero's origins do lie in the south, then that makes it more likely that we will start out as a slave, having been kidnapped into service as a child (which would remove the need for a region specific accent). There was a connection between the human Inquisitor and the Circles, whether a mage or not, that made the link with the Freemarches more understandable in the light of the first act concentrating on resolving the mage/Templar issue. Ferelden's Circle was severely impacted by the events of DAO, whilst Orlais was closely connected with the actual commencement of the rebellion by both sides against the Chantry, even though the epilogue to DA2 suggested otherwise, so perhaps making the connection to the Freemarches allowed for the possibility of a more neutral stance by the PC in that conflict and also in the political decisions in subsequent acts. A lot of the dialogue would seem to have been written with a human Inquisitor in mind, with the odd bit of race specific dialogue to make it appear they had made a distinction between them. In fact, the Dalish background is the only one that really sticks out as being odd. The dwarf is a member of the Carta, who are based in Kirkwall and no doubt they would be interested in the outcome of the Conclave, having probably being profiteering from the conflict. The vashoth is part of a mercenary band employed to give added security to the Conclave and once again it may have been thought that a mercenary group from the Freemarches was less likely to be compromised from their contacts among the nobility. Only a Dalish clan from the wilds of the Freemarches really had no reason to know about the Conclave, much less be interested in the outcome, but I suppose that having made every other background from the Freemarches, they just thought it easier to go with the general trend. I REALLY don't want to even begin thinking about an orlesian MC, unless it's an elf, Dalish, City or Circle. I honestly believe that a even a short origin story for each background would help a lot with roleplay, if the people at current Bioware are even thinking about that. As for accents, my guess is they'll keep the DAI method, british and american and call it good enough. And you're right, most of the dialogue was written with a human in mind and since Adaar/Cadash can mostly sell that Marcher background in the same way Trevelyan does, they thought it was good enough I guess?
It's been a few years, three I think, but I did write some background for my own Lavellan trying to figure out why the hell would Keeper Deshanna send him to the Conclave. All I could think was that since after the battle of the Gallows, many mages began to spread throughout the region, word would also reach the clan, specifically because clan Lavellan was as they say, used to dealing with humans. Which I assume means they trade with the city-states of the Free Marches I guess? I also like to think that my own character was at least used to doing that, just so I can headcanon that he's not some sheltered Dalish that never had any prior experience with the human society prior to Haven.
Anyway, I would also guess that just like in the Fereldan Hinterlands, the mage-templar war spilled through the countryside. Maybe clan Lavellan was traveling somewhere near one of these skirmishes. Indeed, I headcanon myself that after seeing these battles, to avoid problems, clan Lavellan hid within the Planasene Forest for a while, and when news of the Conclave came north they thought they needed someone there to see how things would go, and if they would still need to keep avoiding the human cities and the open countryside. Probably because the clan needs to keep on the move, as they do, and if they do trade with human cities they also need some supplies or whatever? But honestly, I highly doubt Bioware thought that much about it given how little it feels like we're playing as a Dalish elf.
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Post by dayze on Sept 13, 2023 2:05:26 GMT
What if instead of a crazy hallucination distilled from the febrile booze addled mindscape of Oghren,Schleets were real and this is the true reason the Dreadwolf sundered the fade from the world.Now they are weak and realities must be merged to finish them off once and for all.
Could be, after all something that resembles pants wouldn't be "that" far out of concept, make it some kind of creature adapted to hiding in the city....it still eats so presumably biological entity of some form.
Some kind of cross between a necromorph, darkspawn and a varterral? But from pants?
Honestly I can kind of see it now, why start out using rare "supermonsters" and expensive iron bark when you can experiment with some low level creatures, the blight and cloth?
And of course they are going to hang out under ground or in dark places where it's harder to tell at first, natural predator of the dwarves when you get down to it.
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Post by colfoley on Sept 13, 2023 2:53:07 GMT
Like it does depend but some trends may be followed or some trends may not be. Like the protagonist could be from Orlais...Ferelden...or the Inquisition itself and that will be the continuity. But I really don't think that is a given.
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Post by gervaise21 on Sept 13, 2023 9:32:23 GMT
It's been a few years, three I think, but I did write some background for my own Lavellan trying to figure out why the hell would Keeper Deshanna send him to the Conclave. All I could think was that since after the battle of the Gallows, many mages began to spread throughout the region, word would also reach the clan, specifically because clan Lavellan was as they say, used to dealing with humans. Which I assume means they trade with the city-states of the Free Marches I guess? I also like to think that my own character was at least used to doing that, just so I can headcanon that he's not some sheltered Dalish that never had any prior experience with the human society prior to Haven. I did a similar thing for my Lavellan. If they were setting up such an unlikely situation, I needed to think up a suitable back story to draw on for role playing. So, as you say, they encountered the odd group of mages fleeing the Circle, may be even adopting the elf ones into the clan, but that led to Templars being more interested in them, which was unwelcome. I then had the idea that they encountered a small party of clerics who were making their way to the Conclave, saving them from bandits, and that gave the Keeper the idea of offering the services of one of their clan to see them safely to Haven. That then explained how Lavellan managed to gain admission, because they had the endorsement of the clergy. I still think a city elf would have been more appropriate. When the game was announced and the broad plot at the beginning but without the backgrounds we were eventually given, I had worked on a back story for an elf mage who had formerly been part of the Circle in Montsimmard. Strangely enough that would have been ideal because of the prior connection with Vivienne. Sadly, though, it never came to be.
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Post by catcher on Sept 13, 2023 14:18:59 GMT
"Never ascribe to ignorance what can better be explained by marketing." - Catcher's corollary on Hanlon's Razor. The simple answer as to why the elven Inquisitor was Dalish instead of a City Elf was that there was far more interest by the customers in a Dalish Elf than a City Elf. I'm sure you can appreciate that gervaise. They almost certainly didn't have the resources to cover two elf options, so the more popular option was chosen and the logic be damned. Easy answer. As for why the Free Marches locations, I think this might be a vestige of the cancelled DA2 DLC Exalted March. We saw little bits of this in Inquisition anyway so it wouldn't be a surprise if they just pulled these off the shelf, dusted them off, and called them good enough. Also kept your character from being too likely to get entangled in either Orlesian or Fereldan politics early. I don't have any solid proof but it fits the situation the best.
Hope this helps some.
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Post by colfoley on Dec 5, 2023 0:54:30 GMT
So new teaser and this is the most important trailer/ teaser of plot expansion we've gotten in these many years because now they are teasing not just the Tevinter and Solas stuff but actively confirming other locations for the games along with teasing what plot points we might face on them, and thus the story of Dreadwolf is taking shape, thus I now have theories to speculate on it based on what the voices are saying.
-The Grey Warden: Not much to say and this really seems like the standard Grey Warden stuff we have been hearing since Awakening and Inquisition really brought it to the fore. Grey Wardens not staying aloof from society but going out there to help Thedas deal with their problems whether not they are Dark Spawn related or not.
-The Rivani: Bit more interesting when talking about 'risen gods' and also the blurb attached to the artwork mentioned that Dragons are rising and are wrekcing Lord of Fortune Ships. This makes me think that maybe we have a Dragon worshipping cult that we'll have to deal with in Rivain. But also makes me think about the 'ghilinain' picture rising from the waves. I think the safe theory was that would happen in Tevinter but if Rivain is specifically teasing stuff to do with the ocean and rising gods then it would make sense...also the concept art of people swimming in the ocean makes a little bit more sense now though that could relate later.
-The Antivan Crow(s): Something I've been going back and forth on and the difference is ultimatley semanticle. But at first I thought that it was actually two people speaking. The accent sounded different enough between the two to make me wonder. If they are different characters then we are likely dealing with a *good* Crow or agent outside their influence dealing with a *bad* Crow. One declaring that they want to help the people and the other arrogantly saying 'we rule Antiva.' If its just the same person then they are probably keeping in mind and talking to the Qunari and their occupation of Treviso. But either way this does harken back to the 'Eight Little Talons' in Tevinter Nights and the Crows being agents dedicated to helping the people, vs the Crows being more rich busy bodies only hired thugs for the rich merchant princes. It could still work.
The 'Tevinter' voice-. By far the most interesting and juicy from a theory crafting perspective for me. Now way back I had the theory that the Solas portion of the game would only be the 'first half' like during Inquisition and the Mage-Templar conflict was teased and set up to be a huge conflict that we'd have to resolve but instead ended up being the apetizer/ set up to the larger conflict with Corypheus. And that effectively we'd deal with Solas in the first half and then something he'd do would set up the real big bad of the game by unleashing them onto Thedas. Maybe even resulting in us killing, or working with the Dreadwolf. This theory for me lost a lot of punch when it was revealed that the title would be Dreadwolf because it would be very odd to name your game after something that would only be set up for the actual villain. Well that theory is back on because of the word choice, the timing, and what the voice is saying. So my crazy theory is it is Elgar'nan. Which Ghil in her 'Evanuris bingo card' after last year's teaser suggested would be one of the only two active orbs so that would fit. And it also fits because he expresses a lot of arrogance. A lot of drama. He mentions ruling which suggested he has ruled before and Elger'nan was the ruler of the Evanuris. And it showing, but also not mentioning Tevinter by name, suggests to me that he will rise in the Imperium but then him mentioning that the world will enjoy the peace of his rule suggests he will be a bigger threat then those just mentioned in the Rivain/Antiva/Anderfels portion of the video. Then most interestingly of all you hear a weak Wolf howl on the edge of his words. Almost being drowned up but rising up in defiance and challenge as if in opposition to the two ideas. Like the Dread Wolf is saying 'oh no you don't. So yeah good possibility that somehow Solas is going to free the last two Evanuris and then maybe we will be able to work with him to put an end to them. Also though what is fascinating because given that I find it likely that the Old Gods=Evanuris to we have never actually heard an Old God speak nor has one spoken in lore. Urthemiel didn't. None of the others did. Only the Old God Magisters (the Architect, Corypheus) have. So from there this is either that situation, or maybe Elgar'nan is possessing a human agent, or his soul has fully merged allowing him to speak.
From there two more general comments and theories:
First of all this seems well in line with the theme that was established in the BTS trailer that we are going to be fighting, in part, against those who are ignoring the 'real problems'. The Tevinter and Rivain voices do sound like very high level fantasy 'muhahaha' stuff but the Grey Warden and Antivan voices feel very much in line with those themes. It will depend on exactly who the speaker is talking to, like for the Grey Warden it could easily be challenging the orders of a corrupt higher officer and pointing out that he will stand and not abandon his men. And for the Antivan could be the Qunari, could be a member of the Antivan Nobility, or could be another fellow Crow who is not acting as they should. Either way that does set up that power dynamic.
Second, the big question is this does seem to establish overarching plot threads for each of these zones. The question then is what will the connection be to Solas, if any. Because that is something Inquisition struggled from. But will we be just recruiting allies in each zone like Dragon Age Origins and the plots itself won't have much to do? Will they just be three random zones? Or will the Player character have the option to go to each place specifically because they need to find something to stop Solas and just gets pulled into the local intrigue? In the last example like maybe one of those LoF ships have something on it that is related to Solas so we have to go and help the Lords of Fortune but they are in the midst of their Dragon problems. But anyways no matter how this goes I hope each zone does have their own things to offer and the story telling in this game ends up being tight...with Tevinter/ Solas/ possibly now Elgar'nan serving as the meat that we may have to come back to again and again.
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Post by Absafraginlootly on Dec 5, 2023 9:54:43 GMT
Now way back I had the theory that the Solas portion of the game would only be the 'first half' like during Inquisition and the Mage-Templar conflict was teased and set up to be a huge conflict that we'd have to resolve but instead ended up being the apetizer/ set up to the larger conflict with Corypheus. And that effectively we'd deal with Solas in the first half and then something he'd do would set up the real big bad of the game by unleashing them onto Thedas. Maybe even resulting in us killing, or working with the Dreadwolf. This theory for me lost a lot of punch when it was revealed that the title would be Dreadwolf because it would be very odd to name your game after something that would only be set up for the actual villain. Maybe it's the other way around? Maybe what Solas is doing is related to or the cause of something/s being unleashed and we first go after them before finding out its solas' fault/what he's doing and end up killing or allying with a different god against Solas?
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Post by gervaise21 on Dec 5, 2023 14:40:18 GMT
thus I now have theories to speculate on it based on what the voices are saying. Grey Wardens not staying aloof from society but going out there to help Thedas deal with their problems whether not they are Dark Spawn related or not. Could be this but there is a strong chance that it is going to be related to the two remaining Old Gods and so is Grey Warden business, even if they aren't tainted with the Blight, although I find it strange they would know of their location if they weren't tainted. Let's face it, the southern Wardens went into panic mode when they thought they were all hearing the Calling and were planning on seeking out the two remaining Old Gods to kill them. That would suggest the Old Gods were located in the south but since rational thinking wasn't Clarel's strong point, it is quite possible they were going to try and reach them wherever they were. We do know that the Grey Wardens have a good idea of their location, so presumably would also be aware if they shifted. Also, the Grey Wardens would appear to be the ones who identified the Arch-demons when they arose, although the priest in the memories in the Fade seemed to recognise Dumat even though by rights they had never seen him. Unless the priesthood saw him in their dreams. It may also have something to do with the Grey Warden conflict that was never really expanded upon from the epilogue to DAI. So, as you suggest, the speaker is a representative of the southern Wardens, who want to get actively involved, and the opposition is provided by the First Warden who doesn't. Then, based off concept art and that "leaked" footage, may be a direct attack on Weisshaupt forces their hand. -The Rivani: Bit more interesting when talking about 'risen gods' and also the blurb attached to the artwork mentioned that Dragons are rising and are wrekcing Lord of Fortune Ships. Did you notice how the land of Rivain actually formed into the image of a dragon? However, I don't think it is hinting at dragons generally but the risen gods mentioned by the voice. Or could it be a sea dragon? One of Ghilan'nain's monsters of the sea that "Pride" stopped her from killing. I'm actually pleased they showcased Rivain, not for the Lords of Fortune, but the fact that it is the home of the Seers. We are constantly told they have they own magical traditions that likely date back to humans first arriving in Thedas and likely their own unique specialisms, so I hope I get my wish and we may be assisted by a Rivaini Seer. I much prefer that to just some generic fortune hunter. -The Antivan Crow(s): Something I've been going back and forth on and the difference is ultimatley semanticle. But at first I thought that it was actually two people speaking. The accent sounded different enough between the two to make me wonder. If they are different characters then we are likely dealing with a *good* Crow or agent outside their influence dealing with a *bad* Crow. It could be Teia is the first voice and then Caterina the second. I'm pretty sure about the second voice as it sounds older but I was wondering if the first one was connected to the Crows at all. However, "good" Crow, "bad" Crow would fit with what we know about Teia and Caterina. There was line in Eight Little Talons when Teia objects to the fact that the murderer killed the innocent servants, saying it is against the rules, to which Viago points out that it is her personal morality and the other Talons don't share her scrupples. So, you could be right about the identity of the voices. So my crazy theory is it is Elgar'nan. This crossed my mind. If the Old Gods are alternative manifestations of the Evanuris, then Lusacan as the Old God of Night would actually fit with Elgar'nan since when he attacked the "Sun" and pulled it down, he covered the land with darkness until Mythal persuaded him to relent and free the Sun once more. So Elgar'nan is effectively the god of light and darkness. Of course, the alternative would be Falon'Din, who in their dual was represented by a figure clothed in black as opposed to the champion of Elgar'nan who was in gold. However, based off Solas' representation of him, Falon'Din doesn't sound like someone who aims to bring peace by his reign, nor would he claim as much, whereas Elgar'nan would likely justify his rule with such a claim considering that is how the Evanuris consolidated their power over the elves the last time. Whatever the identity of the voice, I find it promising that he does sound so measured and reasonable, rather than a deranged cackling villain. With any luck he will prove a worthy antagonist and initially we might even be persuaded to side with him for valid reasons rather than just because the plot needs us to. Did the voice sound familiar to you? Then most interestingly of all you hear a weak Wolf howl on the edge of his words. Almost being drowned up but rising up in defiance and challenge as if in opposition to the two ideas. Like the Dread Wolf is saying 'oh no you don't. I definitely agree with you on this one. Which is why I'm hoping it isn't obvious they are the villain and that it may be a case of choosing to side with them against the threat of the Dread Wolf because they have a convincing, logical reason to do so. Alternatively, they convince the majority of people to accept their rule because of the various dangers that are threatening them but our Hero gradually realises the folly of doing so. So from there this is either that situation, or maybe Elgar'nan is possessing a human agent, or his soul has fully merged allowing him to speak. He is also quite possibly a shapeshifter. May be the charismatic elf companion will actually turn out to be him. I know that would make it two in a row but it is not beyond the bounds of possibility. Either that or he will be an actual talking dragon. I suppose there is another possibility and, as you suggest, the spirit of the god is merged with a mortal. That person might be a companion or it could be someone else entirely, like the Black Divine. It could even be the leader of the Shadow Dragons, the Viper. That would make sense since they are opposed to the status quo in Tevinter and they seem to have an increasing number of ordinary people joining their ranks. When the Viper said they represented the people the Magisters forgot, may be he was referring to the Old God worshipers. I think the Shadow Dragons are going to be involved with the speaker in some way but whether in support or opposition remains to be seen. Second, the big question is this does seem to establish overarching plot threads for each of these zones. Likely they will be linked to one another with some sort of logical progression to connect them or may be we will only discover the connection by the time we reach the end of the cycle. So, we will start in one location and deal with a problem specific to it, from which we will get a clue as to our next port of call, but we won't realise the overarching connection until much later. And that effectively we'd deal with Solas in the first half and then something he'd do would set up the real big bad of the game by unleashing them onto Thedas. Maybe even resulting in us killing, or working with the Dreadwolf. This theory for me lost a lot of punch when it was revealed that the title would be Dreadwolf because it would be very odd to name your game after something that would only be set up for the actual villain. There is also a theory of mine to consider that our Hero is actually going to turn out to be the Dreadwolf by the end. By this I mean they take on the mantle of Solas as a rebel who works to defeat a tyrant or tyrants but in doing so may end up being hated by most people because of the chaos that results. Essentially we do what we have to do to save the world but people never know how much worse things would have been had we not done so. This may particularly be the case if the "god" promised them peace and appeared to be coming through with their claim. After all the last time, those who had the favour of the Evanuris likely did enjoy a peaceful existence. It is just there were many others from the lower ranks who were being exploited who did not have a pleasant time of it at all. We know from Dalish legends that the Forgotten Ones (the rebels) and Falon'Din are not remembered with any fondness and that the peace of Elven'han was broken by their war and the subsequent loss of the Creators.
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Post by colfoley on Dec 6, 2023 0:31:17 GMT
Now way back I had the theory that the Solas portion of the game would only be the 'first half' like during Inquisition and the Mage-Templar conflict was teased and set up to be a huge conflict that we'd have to resolve but instead ended up being the apetizer/ set up to the larger conflict with Corypheus. And that effectively we'd deal with Solas in the first half and then something he'd do would set up the real big bad of the game by unleashing them onto Thedas. Maybe even resulting in us killing, or working with the Dreadwolf. This theory for me lost a lot of punch when it was revealed that the title would be Dreadwolf because it would be very odd to name your game after something that would only be set up for the actual villain. Maybe it's the other way around? Maybe what Solas is doing is related to or the cause of something/s being unleashed and we first go after them before finding out its solas' fault/what he's doing and end up killing or allying with a different god against Solas? Of course the other theory that has been banging around in my head on this is that it is the Dread Wolf manifestation. If we are taking the idea that Solas and the Dread Wolf will actively be two different beings in some way. The dialogue doesen't quite match up but could still work. thus I now have theories to speculate on it based on what the voices are saying. Grey Wardens not staying aloof from society but going out there to help Thedas deal with their problems whether not they are Dark Spawn related or not. Could be this but there is a strong chance that it is going to be related to the two remaining Old Gods and so is Grey Warden business, even if they aren't tainted with the Blight, although I find it strange they would know of their location if they weren't tainted. Let's face it, the southern Wardens went into panic mode when they thought they were all hearing the Calling and were planning on seeking out the two remaining Old Gods to kill them. That would suggest the Old Gods were located in the south but since rational thinking wasn't Clarel's strong point, it is quite possible they were going to try and reach them wherever they were. We do know that the Grey Wardens have a good idea of their location, so presumably would also be aware if they shifted. Also, the Grey Wardens would appear to be the ones who identified the Arch-demons when they arose, although the priest in the memories in the Fade seemed to recognise Dumat even though by rights they had never seen him. Unless the priesthood saw him in their dreams. It may also have something to do with the Grey Warden conflict that was never really expanded upon from the epilogue to DAI. So, as you suggest, the speaker is a representative of the southern Wardens, who want to get actively involved, and the opposition is provided by the First Warden who doesn't. Then, based off concept art and that "leaked" footage, may be a direct attack on Weisshaupt forces their hand. -The Rivani: Bit more interesting when talking about 'risen gods' and also the blurb attached to the artwork mentioned that Dragons are rising and are wrekcing Lord of Fortune Ships. Did you notice how the land of Rivain actually formed into the image of a dragon? However, I don't think it is hinting at dragons generally but the risen gods mentioned by the voice. Or could it be a sea dragon? One of Ghilan'nain's monsters of the sea that "Pride" stopped her from killing. I'm actually pleased they showcased Rivain, not for the Lords of Fortune, but the fact that it is the home of the Seers. We are constantly told they have they own magical traditions that likely date back to humans first arriving in Thedas and likely their own unique specialisms, so I hope I get my wish and we may be assisted by a Rivaini Seer. I much prefer that to just some generic fortune hunter. -The Antivan Crow(s): Something I've been going back and forth on and the difference is ultimatley semanticle. But at first I thought that it was actually two people speaking. The accent sounded different enough between the two to make me wonder. If they are different characters then we are likely dealing with a *good* Crow or agent outside their influence dealing with a *bad* Crow. It could be Teia is the first voice and then Caterina the second. I'm pretty sure about the second voice as it sounds older but I was wondering if the first one was connected to the Crows at all. However, "good" Crow, "bad" Crow would fit with what we know about Teia and Caterina. There was line in Eight Little Talons when Teia objects to the fact that the murderer killed the innocent servants, saying it is against the rules, to which Viago points out that it is her personal morality and the other Talons don't share her scrupples. So, you could be right about the identity of the voices. So my crazy theory is it is Elgar'nan. This crossed my mind. If the Old Gods are alternative manifestations of the Evanuris, then Lusacan as the Old God of Night would actually fit with Elgar'nan since when he attacked the "Sun" and pulled it down, he covered the land with darkness until Mythal persuaded him to relent and free the Sun once more. So Elgar'nan is effectively the god of light and darkness. Of course, the alternative would be Falon'Din, who in their dual was represented by a figure clothed in black as opposed to the champion of Elgar'nan who was in gold. However, based off Solas' representation of him, Falon'Din doesn't sound like someone who aims to bring peace by his reign, nor would he claim as much, whereas Elgar'nan would likely justify his rule with such a claim considering that is how the Evanuris consolidated their power over the elves the last time. Whatever the identity of the voice, I find it promising that he does sound so measured and reasonable, rather than a deranged cackling villain. With any luck he will prove a worthy antagonist and initially we might even be persuaded to side with him for valid reasons rather than just because the plot needs us to. Did the voice sound familiar to you? Then most interestingly of all you hear a weak Wolf howl on the edge of his words. Almost being drowned up but rising up in defiance and challenge as if in opposition to the two ideas. Like the Dread Wolf is saying 'oh no you don't. I definitely agree with you on this one. Which is why I'm hoping it isn't obvious they are the villain and that it may be a case of choosing to side with them against the threat of the Dread Wolf because they have a convincing, logical reason to do so. Alternatively, they convince the majority of people to accept their rule because of the various dangers that are threatening them but our Hero gradually realises the folly of doing so. So from there this is either that situation, or maybe Elgar'nan is possessing a human agent, or his soul has fully merged allowing him to speak. He is also quite possibly a shapeshifter. May be the charismatic elf companion will actually turn out to be him. I know that would make it two in a row but it is not beyond the bounds of possibility. Either that or he will be an actual talking dragon. I suppose there is another possibility and, as you suggest, the spirit of the god is merged with a mortal. That person might be a companion or it could be someone else entirely, like the Black Divine. It could even be the leader of the Shadow Dragons, the Viper. That would make sense since they are opposed to the status quo in Tevinter and they seem to have an increasing number of ordinary people joining their ranks. When the Viper said they represented the people the Magisters forgot, may be he was referring to the Old God worshipers. I think the Shadow Dragons are going to be involved with the speaker in some way but whether in support or opposition remains to be seen. Second, the big question is this does seem to establish overarching plot threads for each of these zones. Likely they will be linked to one another with some sort of logical progression to connect them or may be we will only discover the connection by the time we reach the end of the cycle. So, we will start in one location and deal with a problem specific to it, from which we will get a clue as to our next port of call, but we won't realise the overarching connection until much later. And that effectively we'd deal with Solas in the first half and then something he'd do would set up the real big bad of the game by unleashing them onto Thedas. Maybe even resulting in us killing, or working with the Dreadwolf. This theory for me lost a lot of punch when it was revealed that the title would be Dreadwolf because it would be very odd to name your game after something that would only be set up for the actual villain. There is also a theory of mine to consider that our Hero is actually going to turn out to be the Dreadwolf by the end. By this I mean they take on the mantle of Solas as a rebel who works to defeat a tyrant or tyrants but in doing so may end up being hated by most people because of the chaos that results. Essentially we do what we have to do to save the world but people never know how much worse things would have been had we not done so. This may particularly be the case if the "god" promised them peace and appeared to be coming through with their claim. After all the last time, those who had the favour of the Evanuris likely did enjoy a peaceful existence. It is just there were many others from the lower ranks who were being exploited who did not have a pleasant time of it at all. We know from Dalish legends that the Forgotten Ones (the rebels) and Falon'Din are not remembered with any fondness and that the peace of Elven'han was broken by their war and the subsequent loss of the Creators. 1. Keep in mind to be clear about the Grey Wardens I'm not assumign that the problem isn't Darkspawn/ Old God related per se. It could still very easily be just that whatever the problem is you have one faction of Wardens wanting to stay in their castles and retreat there, effectively leaving Thedas to its own mess in regards to this issue, and then you have another faction of Grey Wardens actively wanting to stand and fight. 2. I did catch that as well. And you are right, good catch, as it could really help flesh out human background lore from a source other then the Tevinter Imperium. Which also while I haven't read it you have, I believe the stuff happening with Yevena and the Silent Grove? 3. Yah it does sound pretty familiar. I was actually instantly thinking of the Nightmare Demon in DAI in terms of muhahahaness but you are effectively just as right as it does sound...quite even keeled. Affable is the wrong word but something close to affable. Like this could be a big threat/ the big threat of the game but you are right there is a level of intelligence behind the voice overall. Which then leads to the rest of your thoughts nicely. It might be a bit of a stretch but since this is an RPG we can never discount the idea out of hand of us having to choose between the two factions/ forces in this regard. Behind the voice and whatever it is and represents versus the Dread Wolf and trying to decide which one might be better off for Thedas could easily be a thing and something that could provide some nuance. However where your thoughts gets more then a little jucy is tying the voice to the Shadow Dragons which is just perfect. Because A. we have seen BioWare do this kind of reversal of morality before by taking an organization with benign intentions and really adding an asterisk to them. While they weren't fleshed out the Freemen of the Dales come to mind in this regard because they were a very sympathetic organization being against the Orlesian nobility and sick of the Civil War...but in so doing because of their status they fell under the influence of Corypheus. B. And suddenly thier name makes a lot more sense because if 'Shadow Dragons' is tied to Elgar'nan, someone who has taken the form of a Dragon, then that ties in directly. And its juicy to because Dragon Age, as I've pointed out, does this thing where it has a high level threat and a low level threat. Loghain and the Blight. The Qunari and Red Lyrium. The Mage-Templar War...and Corypheus. So it would be logical to assume that Solas and Elgar'nan would be the high level threat but if this is Elgar'nan and he just woke up he might not be that powerful. So he himself could be using the Shadow Dragons and the Plight of Slaves as the means of gathering power to himself. But this could keep pretty much all the conflicts in the game as a shadow war happening behind the scenes with the Qunari as the main ones. 4. And yeah that does dove tail into us becoming a rebel and joining in with Solas could be something that has a high likeliehood of happening.
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Post by gervaise21 on Dec 6, 2023 8:29:58 GMT
2. I did catch that as well. And you are right, good catch, as it could really help flesh out human background lore from a source other then the Tevinter Imperium. Which also while I haven't read it you have, I believe the stuff happening with Yevena and the Silent Grove? Yavana had been floating around in my mind as well since she was located in the wilds of Antiva and I can't believe she wouldn't have some sort of contingency plan against a fatal attack bearing in mind whose daughter she is/was. With regard to the voices in the Antiva part, she could even be the first one. Whilst Morrigan didn't seem particularly invested in helping people generally, that might not apply to all Flemeth's daughters. I can't help remembering that when the Qunari overran Antiva in the Steel Age, it was Yavana and her dragons who broke the siege of Seleny and drove the Antaam into wild retreat. She had no real vested interest in doing this other than opposition to the Qun on principle, like Solas, or a desire to protect the people of Antiva from them. So may be the "we" spoken of by the first person was not the Crows but Yavana and her dragons. She was adamant that she believed the world would one day need the dragons again and that those slaughtering them did not realise the implications of their actions. If the speaker in the Tevinter section is associated with a dragon or dragons in some way, may be she would be on their side. However where your thoughts gets more then a little jucy is tying the voice to the Shadow Dragons which is just perfect. Because A. we have seen BioWare do this kind of reversal of morality before by taking an organization with benign intentions and really adding an asterisk to them. That's why it occurred to me this could be what they are doing. We should also remember that the way Hessarian originally managed to bring down his political rivals, who happened to be Old God worshipers as well, was aligning himself with the Maker and then courting the support of the Soporati and slaves, by giving the former positions of power both within his new religion and in the Magisterium, whilst freeing many of the latter and allowing them to go south, so no longer his problem but weakening those who relied upon their labour. This seems pretty much what the Shadow Dragons are currently doing in Tevinter, no doubt helped by the fact that the Magisterium are making pretty lousy defence of their country against the Qunari. The fact is, though, that it states in the lore books that Old God worshipers never entirely disappeared but continue to exist in the shadows. It would also explain their objection to the Venatori and Corypheus, because in setting himself up as a god, they would regard him as a traitor and heretic, whilst the Venatori were the same for supporting him. So, on the face of it, they seem just the sort of organisation we would want to align ourselves with but I wouldn't be surprised if there was a sting in the tail for doing so. Of course, there are also the Executors but their only true representative, as shown in Tevinter Nights, did seem somewhat creepy, so whilst they were opposed to the "Wolf", I wouldn't necessarily jump to support them as I would agree with Solas' warning about them, particularly as those weird pools in Horror of Hormack smelled of the sea, just like the Executor. They might well come to the fore in Rivain, given the association with the sea hinted at there. They might also support the newly arisen god in that area. Of course, there could be a link between them and the Shadow Dragons. After all, the ancient Neromenians were seafarers, so may be their origins did lie in "those across the sea".
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Post by colfoley on Dec 6, 2023 8:34:34 GMT
2. I did catch that as well. And you are right, good catch, as it could really help flesh out human background lore from a source other then the Tevinter Imperium. Which also while I haven't read it you have, I believe the stuff happening with Yevena and the Silent Grove? Yavana had been floating around in my mind as well since she was located in the wilds of Antiva and I can't believe she wouldn't have some sort of contingency plan against a fatal attack bearing in mind whose daughter she is/was. With regard to the voices in the Antiva part, she could even be the first one. Whilst Morrigan didn't seem particularly invested in helping people generally, that might not apply to all Flemeth's daughters. I can't help remembering that when the Qunari overran Antiva in the Steel Age, it was Yavana and her dragons who broke the siege of Seleny and drove the Antaam into wild retreat. She had no real vested interest in doing this other than opposition to the Qun on principle, like Solas, or a desire to protect the people of Antiva from them. So may be the "we" spoken of by the first person was not the Crows but Yavana and her dragons. She was adamant that she believed the world would one day need the dragons again and that those slaughtering them did not realise the implications of their actions. If the speaker in the Tevinter section is associated with a dragon or dragons in some way, may be she would be on their side. However where your thoughts gets more then a little jucy is tying the voice to the Shadow Dragons which is just perfect. Because A. we have seen BioWare do this kind of reversal of morality before by taking an organization with benign intentions and really adding an asterisk to them. That's why it occurred to me this could be what they are doing. We should also remember that the way Hessarian originally managed to bring down his political rivals, who happened to be Old God worshipers as well, was aligning himself with the Maker and then courting the support of the Soporati and slaves, by giving the former positions of power both within his new religion and in the Magisterium, whilst freeing many of the latter and allowing them to go south, so no longer his problem but weakening those who relied upon their labour. This seems pretty much what the Shadow Dragons are currently doing in Tevinter, no doubt helped by the fact that the Magisterium are making pretty lousy defence of their country against the Qunari. The fact is, though, that it states in the lore books that Old God worshipers never entirely disappeared but continue to exist in the shadows. It would also explain their objection to the Venatori and Corypheus, because in setting himself up as a god, they would regard him as a traitor and heretic, whilst the Venatori were the same for supporting him. So, on the face of it, they seem just the sort of organisation we would want to align ourselves with but I wouldn't be surprised if there was a sting in the tail for doing so. Of course, there are also the Executors but their only true representative, as shown in Tevinter Nights, did seem somewhat creepy, so whilst they were opposed to the "Wolf", I wouldn't necessarily jump to support them as I would agree with Solas' warning about them, particularly as those weird pools in Horror of Hormack smelled of the sea, just like the Executor. They might well come to the fore in Rivain, given the association with the sea hinted at there. They might also support the newly arisen god in that area. Of course, there could be a link between them and the Shadow Dragons. After all, the ancient Neromenians were seafarers, so may be their origins did lie in "those across the sea". Crap I thought Yavanna and the Silent Grove was in Rivain and not Antiva so my bad on that one.
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Post by gervaise21 on Dec 9, 2023 10:14:44 GMT
I've notice that a couple of the on-line reviews of the teaser have suggested the theory that the voice at the end is in some way connected with Solas. Jackdaw suggested it is the voice of the dragon/wolf hybrid whilst another person brought up an idea that I had previously suggested, that of some split personality occurring, so the Dreadwolf of the Fade is no longer the same as the person we encounter in the Waking World. This was also a theory going around at the time of the 2018 trailer because Solas appeared to be in confrontation with the figure of the Dreadwolf. I have also suggested previously that it may be we can only defeat Solas by confronting him in the Fade as that is where he is most powerful and that could be the only way to "save him from himself".
There have been various hints in that direction in addition to the 2018 trailer. His tarot card changes to either one with the Dreadwolf looming over him as the default option or with the tamed, white wolf if you continue the romance. PW explained that Solas rejected his lover because of the conflict their romance had created within him. Essentially in order to continue he felt he would have to come clean but also abandon his mission but that would mean not being true to himself, so he ended the romance instead. At the end of Trespasser, the epilogue seems to indicate she still has some influence over him but it is likely weakening the longer they are apart. His self portrait also shows the figure of Solas with the Dreadwolf as an ominous presence following him. This could be just symbolic of the Dreadwolf being an identity he adopted and by which his enemies know him but it could mean something more.
Meanwhile, a non romanced Solas has no such conflict or does he? In Tevinter Nights he continues to apologise to the Inquisitor via Charter, which seem empty words if he is proceeding regardless. However, he also suggested that those who survived may prefer the world he creates and his message to Varric in the Missing indicated he is going to try and mitigate the damage he causes. So, it would seem that there is still conflict with Solas. Could it be that even if we convince him to abandon his plan, his alter ego in the Fade will ignore him and start a separate existence? Or simply possess and dominate him so he can no longer resist?
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Post by colfoley on Dec 9, 2023 11:09:54 GMT
I've notice that a couple of the on-line reviews of the teaser have suggested the theory that the voice at the end is in some way connected with Solas. Jackdaw suggested it is the voice of the dragon/wolf hybrid whilst another person brought up an idea that I had previously suggested, that of some split personality occurring, so the Dreadwolf of the Fade is no longer the same as the person we encounter in the Waking World. This was also a theory going around at the time of the 2018 trailer because Solas appeared to be in confrontation with the figure of the Dreadwolf. I have also suggested previously that it may be we can only defeat Solas by confronting him in the Fade as that is where he is most powerful and that could be the only way to "save him from himself". There have been various hints in that direction in addition to the 2018 trailer. His tarot card changes to either one with the Dreadwolf looming over him as the default option or with the tamed, white wolf if you continue the romance. PW explained that Solas rejected his lover because of the conflict their romance had created within him. Essentially in order to continue he felt he would have to come clean but also abandon his mission but that would mean not being true to himself, so he ended the romance instead. At the end of Trespasser, the epilogue seems to indicate she still has some influence over him but it is likely weakening the longer they are apart. His self portrait also shows the figure of Solas with the Dreadwolf as an ominous presence following him. This could be just symbolic of the Dreadwolf being an identity he adopted and by which his enemies know him but it could mean something more. Meanwhile, a non romanced Solas has no such conflict or does he? In Tevinter Nights he continues to apologise to the Inquisitor via Charter, which seem empty words if he is proceeding regardless. However, he also suggested that those who survived may prefer the world he creates and his message to Varric in the Missing indicated he is going to try and mitigate the damage he causes. So, it would seem that there is still conflict with Solas. Could it be that even if we convince him to abandon his plan, his alter ego in the Fade will ignore him and start a separate existence? Or simply possess and dominate him so he can no longer resist? I did have the same thought and I can see it happen in a way as possible, even enough for them to cast an entirely different voice actor in the role. Unless of course they are doing this because Gareth David Lloyd is not available anymore. And it could work for symbolism and well these trickster type characters always seem to straddle the line of morality between good and bad. However I do have issues and concerns: 1. It really does not match Solas's MO. Even as prideful as he is he has shown no real desire to rule or control people and its been his entire mission statement to free people and also let people live and also try and save the Elves. Plus he kind of also has this sort of guilt in what he is doing to. So it is one heck of an corruption even of the 'Dread Wolf' version of himself in order to go all 'muahaha I am going to control everything!'. 2. Unless Gareth David Lloyd has been replaced its going to be a really weird decision to have the Dread Wolf voiced by someone other then him. Its possible to throw off the scent. But it would be just a huge stretch. 3. While there is a lot of evidence pointing towards a split personality situation happening with Solas/ The Dread Wolf...there is also a lot of evidence suggesting the rise/ return of other forces which could also provide their own threat. The two figures. And with the implication that they are going to have some connection to the Evanuris. And possibility even of a Titan rising as well. That voice could easily belong to one of them and if one of them is Elgar'nan, which we have also gotten some hints about, then that would fit considering he already was the ruler of the Elven pantheon. (As an aside I almost feel like I am just regurgitating stuff but it does bear mentioning. ) 4. Given BioWare's story structure with Dragon Age there pretty much have always been two threats within the game for us to deal with. A more 'grounded' and, at least structually speaking, 'grey' threat and a high level more black threat. All this being said though I kind of still find it likely that we could see either a metaphorical or actual split with the Dread Wolf and this even raises the possibility even more. With Solas being cast as the villain he could take on the role of anti hero, anti villain, villain turned alley and perhaps back again. And well there is a lot of projection going on here and it just gets more...kaliscope in its efforts...but A. this would also avoid the problem with TIM because if Solas isn't the Big Bad per se then he can still be presented with some nuance. I'm actually watching them pull off the same trick with the show Justified right now. And B. If they manage to write Solas with nuance and then give 'Elgar'nan' some nuance as well then we have fodder for some really excellent story telling...at least on paper. Though ocum's razor suggests that if I'm right about this then dear old Elgar'nan is likely to be just 'muhahaha.' Edit: Oh and 5. We did hear a wolf howl at the end of the statement which we both think was challenging the voice and the wolf howl would be most likely associated with the Dread Wolf so the Dread wolf is fighting Solas and then himself at the same time. I do doubt it.
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Post by gervaise21 on Dec 9, 2023 12:18:41 GMT
So it is one heck of an corruption even of the 'Dread Wolf' version of himself in order to go all 'muahaha I am going to control everything!'. Except that wasn't the vibe I got from it. It is why I was hoping it was the main villain because he wasn't going "muahaha, I'm the god this world needs and I shall rule over all" like Corypheus, but has a sort of serene confidence and assurance that his reign is going to be one of comfort and peace. Remember how Solas thought that helping us defeat the Qun and then telling us his plan would give us a few years of peace before the chaos he knew his plan would cause. I've always argued that he was deluded in thinking it would give us any peace knowing what he had planned, as Charter emphasised to him in Tevinter Nights, so it would seem consistent that his alter ego might have a similar degree of self deception. Whilst he always fought for freedom, he might have developed the idea that the only way forward is for him to rule, bearing in mind that he disapproved of the Inquisitor sharing the power of the Well with others but approved if you indicated if things didn't work out as you wanted, you would keep on trying until it did. Like you, I do think it more likely that the voice is that of one of the newly arisen gods and Elgar'nan or Lusacan would be a good candidate, hence the dragon rumble and the challenge of the wolf howl, but I haven't ruled out the idea it could be the Dreadwolf entirely. Of course, another option would be some sort of spirit/demon offering temptation to our PC. People have also pointed out how the blurb on the Bioware site talks of finding a leader rather than a hero, so that could be a possibility. In the Behind the Scenes video they have Solas saying "They call me the Dreadwolf, what will they call you?" I've always wondered if this could hint at some sort of twist occurring with respect to our PC, so we end up as a sort of anti-hero, a bit like the control option at the end of ME3: the galaxy has peace but with an AI overlord controlling and enforcing it. I have to admit that the final voice is the one I find most intriguing, although the one connected with Rivain could be connected, since he is honouring the risen gods, whereas the final voice is likely one of them. I'm pretty sure they are going to be opposed to Solas and that is what will make the narrative interesting because it may well be a situation where the "right" choice isn't obvious.
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https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Ftse1.mm.bing.net%2Fth%3Fid%3DOIP.hVm-5wNStlyTEXjhwDoa_wHaEK%26pid%3DApi&f=1&ipt=8f745a5f30b08f8231ddb64664df7375d23cc10878aa50d66fec54e9d570c7e2&ipo=images
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Post by Sartoz on Dec 9, 2023 12:48:58 GMT
I love to read these "crazy" theories and ideas about the world of Thedas. It make Dragon Age bloom into 3d technicolour. Then, reality comes crashing down with the game's launch where we find ourselves with the bare minimum. Low populated market squares with mannequins strewn about. Vendor establishments with only one proprietor and no other shopper in it. NPCs sitting or standing in front of their tents in the camp. A world where all the populations are standing still just waiting.... kinda punctures my built up fantasy bubble.
As to the "contradictions" in the story/lore, leading to different interpretations, I put it down to simply "The Case of the Missing Lore Editor".
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Post by celestielf on Dec 9, 2023 16:00:18 GMT
This. Even though I expect to see some kind of corrupted Solas in DA4, Solas suddenly becoming an evil overlord wannabe would be completely antithetical to his character. (Edit: Although I do recognize that Solas can be hypocritical at times). Given that his writer has not changed, I just don't get Solas from that voice, even if they did give his Dread Wolf form a different VA for some reason.
I think they wanted to tease something in the trailer that isn't just Varric or Solas, so they did.
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Post by colfoley on Dec 10, 2023 1:37:26 GMT
So it is one heck of an corruption even of the 'Dread Wolf' version of himself in order to go all 'muahaha I am going to control everything!'. Except that wasn't the vibe I got from it. It is why I was hoping it was the main villain because he wasn't going "muahaha, I'm the god this world needs and I shall rule over all" like Corypheus, but has a sort of serene confidence and assurance that his reign is going to be one of comfort and peace. Remember how Solas thought that helping us defeat the Qun and then telling us his plan would give us a few years of peace before the chaos he knew his plan would cause. I've always argued that he was deluded in thinking it would give us any peace knowing what he had planned, as Charter emphasised to him in Tevinter Nights, so it would seem consistent that his alter ego might have a similar degree of self deception. Whilst he always fought for freedom, he might have developed the idea that the only way forward is for him to rule, bearing in mind that he disapproved of the Inquisitor sharing the power of the Well with others but approved if you indicated if things didn't work out as you wanted, you would keep on trying until it did. Like you, I do think it more likely that the voice is that of one of the newly arisen gods and Elgar'nan or Lusacan would be a good candidate, hence the dragon rumble and the challenge of the wolf howl, but I haven't ruled out the idea it could be the Dreadwolf entirely. Of course, another option would be some sort of spirit/demon offering temptation to our PC. People have also pointed out how the blurb on the Bioware site talks of finding a leader rather than a hero, so that could be a possibility. In the Behind the Scenes video they have Solas saying "They call me the Dreadwolf, what will they call you?" I've always wondered if this could hint at some sort of twist occurring with respect to our PC, so we end up as a sort of anti-hero, a bit like the control option at the end of ME3: the galaxy has peace but with an AI overlord controlling and enforcing it. I have to admit that the final voice is the one I find most intriguing, although the one connected with Rivain could be connected, since he is honouring the risen gods, whereas the final voice is likely one of them. I'm pretty sure they are going to be opposed to Solas and that is what will make the narrative interesting because it may well be a situation where the "right" choice isn't obvious. You do argue your case well and there is some simularities in the language. However though that pretty much is Corypheus because Corypheus still has that background of being an ancient being waking up after a time, finding out that the world has changed and is far more worse then he found it from his perspective, and resolves to do something about it. Just right now presumably Corypheus and Solas does have different end games and different...demeanors...in how they are dealing with things. But if Solas does just get in it to muhaha and rule then it will pretty much just be a one to one. As for the morality of the situation I do agree with you and well BioWare has been moving in a more grey direction, at least with Dragon Age, where none of the choices presented in Inquisition really had clear cut answers per se. Though Andromeda did have some which were more traditionally 'black and white'. Its just going to be curious though if there is a 'right' decision when it comes to siding with one side or another...if that is even an option. And given some of the word choice in marketing the 'right' decision could easily be one that might come with a heavy cost associated with it...or a situation where we are so much in the shadows behind the scenes where doing the right thing won't give us any thanks. We'll just be known as 'Rook' like Solas is Fen'Harel.
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