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Post by midnight tea on Oct 3, 2024 1:53:19 GMT
I'm not sure it's an appropriate thread to post, because I don't think it's crazy...
I'm watching someone playing Inquisition and we're at the moment of "Here Lies The Abyss" where we encounter the spirit that embodies Justinia. And I had a thought - provided it hadn't disappeared when it exploded in Nightmare's face, what are the chances of it showing up in Veilguard?
After all, we don't really know much about what it was in the first place, other than it's quite powerful and interested in helping us. And it did.
Or what if it's actually Caretaker? Or related to Caretaker in some way?
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Post by azarhal on Oct 3, 2024 2:17:49 GMT
I'm not sure it's an appropriate thread to post, because I don't think it's crazy... I'm watching someone playing Inquisition and we're at the moment of "Here Lies The Abyss" where we encounter the spirit that embodies Justinia. And I had a thought - provided it hadn't disappeared when it exploded in Nightmare's face, what are the chances of it showing up in Veilguard? After all, we don't really know much about what it was in the first place, other than it's quite powerful and interested in helping us. And it did. Or what if it's actually Caretaker? Or related to Caretaker in some way? Spirit-Justinia in "Here Lies the Abyss" was a Spirit of Faith I believe. I don't remember if it was officialized in-game, but her unique dialogue with Cassandra suggest it. That convo also brings up the Ship of Theseus Paradox. And I do think the Caretaker is also a Spirit of Faith. I don't think it is the same one thought. I also have a crazy theory that Spirits of Faith have an agenda. Since they have kinda been around since the first game despite supposedly being super rare.
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Post by dadithinkimgay on Oct 4, 2024 1:10:10 GMT
Regarding Ghilan'nain and The Executors. Spoilers for pretty much everything that's been revealed in the media thus far: Is Ghilan'nain fused with an Executor? She seems to have a connection with the sea, with her tentacles and all that. PLus, The Ossuary level contains her headpieces which means she was doing something down in the ocean. We also know her pools smelled of brine, just like the Executor from Tevinter Nights. Another distinctive trait is her voice - didn't Charter describe The Executor's voice as an "idea of a voice," or something along the lines of that? In Solas' memory, we hear her true voice which resonates normally. But with her new tentacle body, it sounds... strange. Almost like what Charter was describing in Tevinter Nights.
Why would she fuse herself with an Executor? Clearly for power and "creation", but namely, I think it has something to do with The Blight. When she uses her power to summon Darkspawn in the lates trailer, I noticed the tentacles on her back trigger as if they're being used or channeled. If this is true, The Executors are certainly more curious than I thought to ever think...
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Post by gervaise21 on Oct 4, 2024 8:02:26 GMT
Regarding Ghilan'nain and The Executors. Spoilers for pretty much everything that's been revealed in the media thus far: Is Ghilan'nain fused with an Executor? She seems to have a connection with the sea, with her tentacles and all that. PLus, The Ossuary level contains her headpieces which means she was doing something down in the ocean. We also know her pools smelled of brine, just like the Executor from Tevinter Nights. Another distinctive trait is her voice - didn't Charter describe The Executor's voice as an "idea of a voice," or something along the lines of that? In Solas' memory, we hear her true voice which resonates normally. But with her new tentacle body, it sounds... strange. Almost like what Charter was describing in Tevinter Nights.
Why would she fuse herself with an Executor? Clearly for power and "creation", but namely, I think it has something to do with The Blight. When she uses her power to summon Darkspawn in the lates trailer, I noticed the tentacles on her back trigger as if they're being used or channeled. If this is true, The Executors are certainly more curious than I thought to ever think... I also noticed how the Venatori soldiers now always have their faces covered with a veil, just like the Executor. This probably hides their altered appearance which would horrify anyone who saw it. I don't remember but do we ever get shown their faces after they are killed? I think somehow the Executors have probably infiltrated the Venatori and are now influencing them.
I think the Executors were more likely servants of Ghlan'nain rather than a separate force in their own right. Her elite priesthood/chosen that she altered with her techniques. They referred to Solas as simply "the Wolf" and were interested in discovering more of his plans but I think more with a view of removing him as a threat rather then necessarily stopping his plans altogether. Solas warned they were dangerous and in this case I think he was being straight with Charter about that but as usual didn't explain why. Remember how in the story in the Temple of Mythal Pride originally persuaded her not to kill her "monsters of the sea"? I think it seems more and more likely these were the Executors and if Pride was Solas, then perhaps he persuaded her to send them into exile rather than kill them because they were sentient beings, a decision he probably now regrets.
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Post by colfoley on Oct 12, 2024 8:15:30 GMT
So perhaps an odd way of going about a crazy theory but been wondering something off and on. Now, there has been a debate on whether or not the Archon's Palace and Tevinter archetecture as described in TVN matches what we have seen from the trailer and the early game so far. It pretty much does, or at least is well in the realm of possibility as mentioned in Half Up Front. The Archon’s palace filled the Minrathous skyline. Dominated it—it was visible from pretty much anywhere. When you first came to the city, you spent a few weeks admiring it, in awe of it. Eventually, you got used to it, and it became part of the background, like the sun or the clouds.
Tourists loved it, though. Nobles from Orlais, from Antiva—the only ones who could afford to make the trip. The roadways outside were always crowded, full of people representing the nicer parts of Thedas. And, of course, those who preyed on them. Had to admire that local entrepreneurial spirit. Our entrance into the palace was a long way from the glittering arches of its front gates. No matter how beautiful the façade, every building needed a servants’ entrance, and we sat on the rooftops opposite. Much less glamorous—you could smell the stench of the sewers here, and there was little attention paid to appearances. The contrasts of Minrathous, in the flesh, so to speak.
Weekes, Patrick. Dragon Age: Tevinter Nights (p. 443). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition. However this does make me think about something I have been wondering, namely how you can see it form anywhere. The Black City in the Fade. So this does make me wonder about Minrathous's connection to the Black City and I have two possibilities. 1. Minrathous replaced the Black City when the Magisters breached it...erm. OK backing up for a second the popular (and still right even in this fan theory) is that Arlathan the Golden City and the Black City are one in the same because of how the Fade mirrors mirrors locations within Thedas and the connection between the Elves and the Fade. But what if when the magisters breached the Golden City and blackened it the City changed because the reflection changed...to Minrathous. 2. Alternatively Minrathous is built on the bones of Arlathan and is thus the same city. Now again the current fan acceptance is that Arlathan Forest was the likely location of the city and we even have some things from Veilguard pointing to that fact. But what if the 'forest' stretched across more of the north in the time of ancient arlathan and then the Imperium came along, buried the city in the ground, and built over it.
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Post by Reznore on Oct 12, 2024 10:24:25 GMT
Tevinter copy/paste ancient elven stuff they stumbled upon. They changed things a bit, some stuff they couldn't figure out (eluvians) and just went we have the ancient elven empire at home, honey.
Imho, the heart of Arlathan is the Golden/Black City in the fade. Humans fought what was left of the ancient elven empire, and destroyed a couple of stuff, pillaged all the things. But really they were just scavengers. They didn't *bury* Arlathan, more likely a piece was missing, they didn't understand how and made up silly stuff.
Minrathous might have been build over something, because well there's an Eluvian leading to Solas crossroad. The Eluvian network might make it hard to define Arlathan because you could imagine the capital had its own Eluvian network, and if you wanted a beach resort in your capital, build it in Antiva plop down an Eluvian, and call it part of Arlathan. The "gods" each could have had a temple quarter, for all we know Mythal main temple in the Arbor Wilds was part of Arlathan.
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Post by azarhal on Oct 12, 2024 11:38:11 GMT
Minrathous might have been build over something, Built over an Elven city, it was mentioned back in June by the devs in one of the early previews/interviews for Veilguard.
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Post by illuminated11 on Oct 14, 2024 9:09:19 GMT
This is less crazy theory and more potential interesting connection, but someone pointed out the new demon and spirit designs look similar to the Guardian from Descent DLC.
Maybe something there? Thoughts?
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Post by Reznore on Oct 14, 2024 9:55:26 GMT
This is less crazy theory and more potential interesting connection, but someone pointed out the new demon and spirit designs look similar to the Guardian from Descent DLC. Maybe something there? Thoughts? I have thoughts. But there are a big mess. I played Trespasser a bit couple of days ago, and as I was clicking on Cole like a looney he says all those mysterious stuff. "they made bodies from the earth but the earth was afraid . It fought back but they made it forget."
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Post by gervaise21 on Oct 14, 2024 12:27:39 GMT
This is less crazy theory and more potential interesting connection, but someone pointed out the new demon and spirit designs look similar to the Guardian from Descent DLC. The difference with that design though is that it was connected to the Titan rather than the Fade. However, I assume that they could explain the difference in the look of spirits now being related to a weakening of the Veil or something like that, at least when we see them on this side of it. Previously, they weren't so lit up because the Veil was reducing the amount of magic they were drawing from it. Meanwhile, when we encountered them in the Fade, the expectation of the person as to how the spirits would look, shaped what they saw. I hope that makes sense. I am really trying hard to excuse the lore and design changes but it isn't easy.
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Post by illuminated11 on Oct 14, 2024 12:49:53 GMT
I think you somewhat misunderstand my question. It’s not so much, how does this relate to past lore so much as, is this clue to new lore reveal in game? For example, perhaps it indicates Guardians are spirits somehow bound to titans. (Just an example, no clue if that’s true.)
Most of the demons we see are beyond the Fade, so their form remains static. Only the Charon-spirit dude is in the Fade, but he seems like a pretty special spirit, so I expect a lot of intent went into his design. (Plus there’s just limitations of game design, desire demons in previous games always looked the same even in the Fade, despite it making little sense, same with most spirits you fight in hushed whispers.)
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Post by Reznore on Oct 14, 2024 13:05:57 GMT
I think you somewhat misunderstand my question. It’s not so much, how does this relate to past lore so much as, is this clue to new lore reveal in game? For example, perhaps it indicates Guardians are spirits somehow bound to titans. (Just an example, no clue if that’s true.) Most of the demons we see are beyond the Fade, so their form remains static. Only the Charon-spirit dude is in the Fade, but he seems like a pretty special spirit, so I expect a lot of intent went into his design. (Plus there’s just limitations of game design, desire demons in previous games always looked the same even in the Fade, despite it making little sense, same with most spirits you fight in hushed whispers.) The connection I can imagine is..well magic? The guardian in Descent is animated by Lyrium. It's titan blood. But we know lyrium is like magical battery. Spirit in the fade, well I imagine they are animated by fade magic. It's unclear what are spirits exactly. Beyond the "first children of the Maker." The nervous system/vein like style might be a choice to make them look more organic, so for example if you say dwarves are the children of Titans, you can vaguely imagine golem like being slowly turning to flesh (somehow). Or if the elves were spirits it's easier to picture ?
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Post by illuminated11 on Oct 14, 2024 13:14:29 GMT
I think you somewhat misunderstand my question. It’s not so much, how does this relate to past lore so much as, is this clue to new lore reveal in game? For example, perhaps it indicates Guardians are spirits somehow bound to titans. (Just an example, no clue if that’s true.) Most of the demons we see are beyond the Fade, so their form remains static. Only the Charon-spirit dude is in the Fade, but he seems like a pretty special spirit, so I expect a lot of intent went into his design. (Plus there’s just limitations of game design, desire demons in previous games always looked the same even in the Fade, despite it making little sense, same with most spirits you fight in hushed whispers.) The connection I can imagine is..well magic? The guardian in Descent is animated by Lyrium. It's titan blood. But we know lyrium is like magical battery. Spirit in the fade, well I imagine they are animated by fade magic. It's unclear what are spirits exactly. Beyond the "first children of the Maker." The nervous system/vein like style might be a choice to make them look more organic, so for example if you say dwarves are the children of Titans, you can vaguely imagine golem like being slowly turning to flesh (somehow). Or if the elves were spirits it's easier to picture ? Hmm maybe. We know lyrium has its own form of magical property and that it can be used to breach the veil if you have enough of it. I wonder if titans waking have some sort of adverse effect on spirits and demons maintaining any sort of form outside the Fade. Like I keep coming back to this idea that design indicate an unraveling, almost. Part of me even wants to use the term flayed. I dunno.
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Post by Reznore on Oct 14, 2024 13:28:43 GMT
Not all demons/spirits look like that. Some looks like your spooky ghost. Spite for example, and some spirits in the crossroad look like white ghost of people? Not sure what's the art direction is when it comes to all that. I think perhaps they wanted those to look more organic, like they have a nervous system of some kind?
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Post by illuminated11 on Oct 14, 2024 13:29:11 GMT
Okay, after thinking it over, here's my theory: titans waking in conjunction with destabilization of the Veil means spirits that die when crossing over don't just return as energy to the Fade, to eventually reform (as mentioned in conclusion to Solas personal quest). Instead they are destroyed entirely, just gone.
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Post by illuminated11 on Oct 14, 2024 13:33:57 GMT
Not all demons/spirits look like that. Some looks like your spooky ghost. Spite for example, and some spirits in the crossroad look like white ghost of people? Not sure what's the art direction is when it comes to all that. I think perhaps they wanted those to look more organic, like they have a nervous system of some kind? Spite has physical body to reside in, which changes things somewhat I'd imagine. He does not have to manifest his own. The Spite we see in game seems more in line with 'spirits/demons reflect what the person sees' and also just operates as visual shorthand for the player.
As for other designs, true. Rage demons also have very specific new design. Not sure what to make of that.
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Post by colfoley on Oct 19, 2024 1:43:55 GMT
So I bumped into something curious in the Deep Roads last night which was quite curious and has some interesting implications for it which seems to be a bit of a nexus for several pieces of lore and theories. There was a statue of what is depicted of an 'Elven God' flanked by two Wolves. I was intrigued at first becuase thought I had completley forgotten about it and there was even a lore bit in front of the thing so I was excited...but then...well...spoilers for Veilguard: Now the statue had the very distinctive 'head shape' of the moon that we associate now with Ghil'anain thanks to her head dress in Veilguard and all the other associations with it. But the codex entry revealed it as being associated with Mythal. Now before everything admittedly this makes sense given we also saw Dread Wolf Statues within the Temple of Mythal so there is precedent....but it still brings up several interesting possibility because its also a completley different head shape.
The devs just messed up- This is one of the more simple theories but its possible that they hadn't settled on 'moon head' being associated with Ghil so they just decided later on to do so and thus there was a little bit of a retcon incongruity.
That's not Ghil- While it could be the case we have never seen 'Mythal's symbol' since she was never seen in the tamborine lineup since Solas never imprisoned her. So while the two head shapes are similar then they are actually different enough to belong to different Gods. I doubt it but its there.
The Dalish messed up- Now this is something and even if its a retcon they might go in that direction anyways. This is especially relevant since Ghil was a late addition to the Elven Pantheon and then given the whole 'EIghth Gold God' codex which did suggest some kind of sea creature which the fandom has associated with Ghil and also makes sense given that nine Evanuris (with Solas and Mythal) but only 7 got trapped. So they basically got the head shapes confused throughout the time.
Ghil took Mythal's spot in the Pantheon- Its also possible, and I just thought of it, and it does also help give credence to the above possibility, that when the Evanuris killed Mythal they basically completed Ghil's elevation to their council, because maybe she was key to the plot...including the symbolism. Afterall these beings were supposedly very hard to kill, and again we know she was really late to the party.
But the fun part is if it is Ghil then what's Solas doing there? Now the Dalish Qunari mentioned that she thought that the Wolves were in a position of protection, like in the Temple, and we also know there is some codexes that mention Fen'Harel being involved with Ghil as well. But the Wolf statues were facing towards whatever....well no actually realized they were facing each other so that does not actually indicate what I was about to say, but not exactly a 'protective' posture either.
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Post by gervaise21 on Oct 19, 2024 7:18:48 GMT
So I bumped into something curious in the Deep Roads last night which was quite curious and has some interesting implications for it which seems to be a bit of a nexus for several pieces of lore and theories. There was a statue of what is depicted of an 'Elven God' flanked by two Wolves. I was intrigued at first becuase thought I had completley forgotten about it and there was even a lore bit in front of the thing so I was excited...but then...well...spoilers for Veilguard: Now the statue had the very distinctive 'head shape' of the moon that we associate now with Ghil'anain thanks to her head dress in Veilguard and all the other associations with it. But the codex entry revealed it as being associated with Mythal. Now before everything admittedly this makes sense given we also saw Dread Wolf Statues within the Temple of Mythal so there is precedent....but it still brings up several interesting possibility because its also a completley different head shape.
The devs just messed up- This is one of the more simple theories but its possible that they hadn't settled on 'moon head' being associated with Ghil so they just decided later on to do so and thus there was a little bit of a retcon incongruity.
That's not Ghil- While it could be the case we have never seen 'Mythal's symbol' since she was never seen in the tamborine lineup since Solas never imprisoned her. So while the two head shapes are similar then they are actually different enough to belong to different Gods. I doubt it but its there.
The Dalish messed up- Now this is something and even if its a retcon they might go in that direction anyways. This is especially relevant since Ghil was a late addition to the Elven Pantheon and then given the whole 'EIghth Gold God' codex which did suggest some kind of sea creature which the fandom has associated with Ghil and also makes sense given that nine Evanuris (with Solas and Mythal) but only 7 got trapped. So they basically got the head shapes confused throughout the time.
Ghil took Mythal's spot in the Pantheon- Its also possible, and I just thought of it, and it does also help give credence to the above possibility, that when the Evanuris killed Mythal they basically completed Ghil's elevation to their council, because maybe she was key to the plot...including the symbolism. Afterall these beings were supposedly very hard to kill, and again we know she was really late to the party.
But the fun part is if it is Ghil then what's Solas doing there? Now the Dalish Qunari mentioned that she thought that the Wolves were in a position of protection, like in the Temple, and we also know there is some codexes that mention Fen'Harel being involved with Ghil as well. But the Wolf statues were facing towards whatever....well no actually realized they were facing each other so that does not actually indicate what I was about to say, but not exactly a 'protective' posture either. Something weird is going on with the narrative. I assume you've seen the scene where Solas confronts Ghil. If not, stop reading now......
. . .
So, he says to her something to the effect that "you were always the sensitive, caring one" (or something like that). That stuck me as odd because that is what he said about Mythal in Trespasser. She was the only one who really cared for her people. So, what is going on with him saying something similar about Ghil?
Then there is a mural in the Lighthouse that shows Solas confronting Elgar'nan and Mythal when they first seem to be claiming godhood. He seems opposed to both and Mythal didn't seem to be objecting to Elgar'nan's assertions about it being for the benefit of the elves (or something like that).
There is also that strange mural in the Missing, showing two female gods, one of whom is thought to be Ghil.
Finally there is the fact that the two gods who escaped were Elgar'nan and Ghil. Were they imprisoned together? Or did he imprison them and transfer them in order of importance, so these two were last? Is it possible that Ghil did assume position number two in the pantheon as Elgar'nan's consort?
So, I was thinking back to the fact that the mosaic called the Arch-demon, which I actually think represents Mythal, seemed to suggest that whilst one group may have been responsible for striking the blow that killed her, she knew that the other one standing off to one side was really responsible. Then there are Flemeth's words, she was betrayed as I was betrayed. People have tended to think that related to being betrayed by her husband/consort but in what way? People have tended to go with the standard narrative as told by Leliana where Flemeth ran off with her lover and the jilted husband took revenge. (So they have equated this with Mythal taking Solas as her lover and Elgar'nan taking revenge as a result). However, in Morrigan's version it was the impoverished husband who effectively sold her to the lord, who then promptly killed him and imprisoned her so she couldn't run away. I think this is probably the true version.
Hmm, let's think about this. Ghil was originally one of the people, a chosen of Andruil so the Dalish claim. We have never really got to the bottom of what being "chosen" actually means but it does seem to be some sort of bound servitude. So, she made monsters for Andruil to hunt but she grew tired of hunting them and went into the Void (where possibly some of the monsters had fled) and went crazy. Then Mythal stole her memories. Perhaps she stole more than her memories but Ghil too and needed her because the battle with Andruil had weakened her. She offered her a place in the pantheon if she killed her monsters, which had been Elgar'nan's request. Then he suggested to Ghil that she should kill Mythal instead and he would then make her his consort in her place.
Not a perfect analogy and I've probably got some of the details wrong but I do think that it is possible that Elgar'nan replaced Mythal with Ghil as his consort. Also, the double wolf guardians are representative of the Arcane Warriors, the elite fighters who protected the nobles and likely originally were under the direction of Solas, the chief Wolf. When he went renegade he thus became known as the Dread Wolf, because he had done the unthinkable and rebelled against those he was originally bound to protect.
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Post by colfoley on Oct 19, 2024 7:29:12 GMT
So I bumped into something curious in the Deep Roads last night which was quite curious and has some interesting implications for it which seems to be a bit of a nexus for several pieces of lore and theories. There was a statue of what is depicted of an 'Elven God' flanked by two Wolves. I was intrigued at first becuase thought I had completley forgotten about it and there was even a lore bit in front of the thing so I was excited...but then...well...spoilers for Veilguard: Now the statue had the very distinctive 'head shape' of the moon that we associate now with Ghil'anain thanks to her head dress in Veilguard and all the other associations with it. But the codex entry revealed it as being associated with Mythal. Now before everything admittedly this makes sense given we also saw Dread Wolf Statues within the Temple of Mythal so there is precedent....but it still brings up several interesting possibility because its also a completley different head shape.
The devs just messed up- This is one of the more simple theories but its possible that they hadn't settled on 'moon head' being associated with Ghil so they just decided later on to do so and thus there was a little bit of a retcon incongruity.
That's not Ghil- While it could be the case we have never seen 'Mythal's symbol' since she was never seen in the tamborine lineup since Solas never imprisoned her. So while the two head shapes are similar then they are actually different enough to belong to different Gods. I doubt it but its there.
The Dalish messed up- Now this is something and even if its a retcon they might go in that direction anyways. This is especially relevant since Ghil was a late addition to the Elven Pantheon and then given the whole 'EIghth Gold God' codex which did suggest some kind of sea creature which the fandom has associated with Ghil and also makes sense given that nine Evanuris (with Solas and Mythal) but only 7 got trapped. So they basically got the head shapes confused throughout the time.
Ghil took Mythal's spot in the Pantheon- Its also possible, and I just thought of it, and it does also help give credence to the above possibility, that when the Evanuris killed Mythal they basically completed Ghil's elevation to their council, because maybe she was key to the plot...including the symbolism. Afterall these beings were supposedly very hard to kill, and again we know she was really late to the party.
But the fun part is if it is Ghil then what's Solas doing there? Now the Dalish Qunari mentioned that she thought that the Wolves were in a position of protection, like in the Temple, and we also know there is some codexes that mention Fen'Harel being involved with Ghil as well. But the Wolf statues were facing towards whatever....well no actually realized they were facing each other so that does not actually indicate what I was about to say, but not exactly a 'protective' posture either. Something weird is going on with the narrative. I assume you've seen the scene where Solas confronts Ghil. If not, stop reading now......
. . .
So, he says to her something to the effect that "you were always the sensitive, caring one" (or something like that). That stuck me as odd because that is what he said about Mythal in Trespasser. She was the only one who really cared for her people. So, what is going on with him saying something similar about Ghil?
Then there is a mural in the Lighthouse that shows Solas confronting Elgar'nan and Mythal when they first seem to be claiming godhood. He seems opposed to both and Mythal didn't seem to be objecting to Elgar'nan's assertions about it being for the benefit of the elves (or something like that).
There is also that strange mural in the Missing, showing two female gods, one of whom is thought to be Ghil.
Finally there is the fact that the two gods who escaped were Elgar'nan and Ghil. Were they imprisoned together? Or did he imprison them and transfer them in order of importance, so these two were last? Is it possible that Ghil did assume position number two in the pantheon as Elgar'nan's consort?
So, I was thinking back to the fact that the mosaic called the Arch-demon, which I actually think represents Mythal, seemed to suggest that whilst one group may have been responsible for striking the blow that killed her, she knew that the other one standing off to one side was really responsible. Then there are Flemeth's words, she was betrayed as I was betrayed. People have tended to think that related to being betrayed by her husband/consort but in what way? People have tended to go with the standard narrative as told by Leliana where Flemeth ran off with her lover and the jilted husband took revenge. (So they have equated this with Mythal taking Solas as her lover and Elgar'nan taking revenge as a result). However, in Morrigan's version it was the impoverished husband who effectively sold her to the lord, who then promptly killed him and imprisoned her so she couldn't run away. I think this is probably the true version.
Hmm, let's think about this. Ghil was originally one of the people, a chosen of Andruil so the Dalish claim. We have never really got to the bottom of what being "chosen" actually means but it does seem to be some sort of bound servitude. So, she made monsters for Andruil to hunt but she grew tired of hunting them and went into the Void (where possibly some of the monsters had fled) and went crazy. Then Mythal stole her memories. Perhaps she stole more than her memories but Ghil too and needed her because the battle with Andruil had weakened her. She offered her a place in the pantheon if she killed her monsters, which had been Elgar'nan's request. Then he suggested to Ghil that she should kill Mythal instead and he would then make her his consort in her place.
Not a perfect analogy and I've probably got some of the details wrong but I do think that it is possible that Elgar'nan replaced Mythal with Ghil as his consort. Also, the double wolf guardians are representative of the Arcane Warriors, the elite fighters who protected the nobles and likely originally were under the direction of Solas, the chief Wolf. When he went renegade he thus became known as the Dread Wolf, because he had done the unthinkable and rebelled against those he was originally bound to protect. I'll have to put a pin on this for later. I have seen pics of it and know of it but I listened to what I saw without audio so I basically don't know anything...so yeah lets hope we can remember this for post release.
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Post by colfoley on Oct 19, 2024 7:55:57 GMT
Something else worth considering regarding my theory and something else a bit weird in things I do know about in Veilguard, or at least enough of to form a theory. So in the Siege of Weishaupt Ghil'anain is running around in the sky but then she has deployed a Dragon she is calling an Arch demon into the struggle against the Wardens as well. While this is forming the basis of my new cooking fan theory that essentially all the Old Gods/ Arch demons are to the Evanuris what Cory's Blighted Dragon was to him, more or less, it does also provide a problem. Because consider as I have mentioned Ghil has been associated with 'moonhead' and sea creatures. We saw in the BioWare concept art of a team of fighters engaging a giant sea creature. Now maybe this has changed but there has been other connections between Ghil and Sea monsters.
Further while I do not know the context because I have not seen it but I have seen spoilerish comments to suggest that the Evanuris are also going by Luscan and Razikale to influence the Venatori. So it seems logical that the Archdemon at Weishaupt is Razikale and thus Razikale has been bound to Ghil.
But what if Razikale was originally supposed to be bound to Mythal? And Ghil just assumed the role as part of her elevation so we also both get her associated with the Arch demon that was originally tied to Mythal and her sea creature form. Which also if this theory does hold up fully, which I think I am pretty close, all the Evanuris also seemed to have other animal forms they were known by so they could transform into their chosen form and were bound to a Dragon.
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Post by azarhal on Oct 19, 2024 12:12:44 GMT
So I bumped into something curious in the Deep Roads last night which was quite curious and has some interesting implications for it which seems to be a bit of a nexus for several pieces of lore and theories. There was a statue of what is depicted of an 'Elven God' flanked by two Wolves. I was intrigued at first becuase thought I had completley forgotten about it and there was even a lore bit in front of the thing so I was excited...but then...well...spoilers for Veilguard: Now the statue had the very distinctive 'head shape' of the moon that we associate now with Ghil'anain thanks to her head dress in Veilguard and all the other associations with it. But the codex entry revealed it as being associated with Mythal. Now before everything admittedly this makes sense given we also saw Dread Wolf Statues within the Temple of Mythal so there is precedent....but it still brings up several interesting possibility because its also a completley different head shape.
The devs just messed up- This is one of the more simple theories but its possible that they hadn't settled on 'moon head' being associated with Ghil so they just decided later on to do so and thus there was a little bit of a retcon incongruity.
That's not Ghil- While it could be the case we have never seen 'Mythal's symbol' since she was never seen in the tamborine lineup since Solas never imprisoned her. So while the two head shapes are similar then they are actually different enough to belong to different Gods. I doubt it but its there.
The Dalish messed up- Now this is something and even if its a retcon they might go in that direction anyways. This is especially relevant since Ghil was a late addition to the Elven Pantheon and then given the whole 'EIghth Gold God' codex which did suggest some kind of sea creature which the fandom has associated with Ghil and also makes sense given that nine Evanuris (with Solas and Mythal) but only 7 got trapped. So they basically got the head shapes confused throughout the time.
Ghil took Mythal's spot in the Pantheon- Its also possible, and I just thought of it, and it does also help give credence to the above possibility, that when the Evanuris killed Mythal they basically completed Ghil's elevation to their council, because maybe she was key to the plot...including the symbolism. Afterall these beings were supposedly very hard to kill, and again we know she was really late to the party.
But the fun part is if it is Ghil then what's Solas doing there? Now the Dalish Qunari mentioned that she thought that the Wolves were in a position of protection, like in the Temple, and we also know there is some codexes that mention Fen'Harel being involved with Ghil as well. But the Wolf statues were facing towards whatever....well no actually realized they were facing each other so that does not actually indicate what I was about to say, but not exactly a 'protective' posture either. There is a Veilguard tarot card that shows Solas wearing a crown similar to Mythal, but the shape is actually another of the seven Evanuris's hats (that the fandom believe is June's). The symbol is on some of the Lighthouse furnitures as well.
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Post by gervaise21 on Oct 19, 2024 15:56:17 GMT
Something else worth considering regarding my theory and something else a bit weird in things I do know about in Veilguard, or at least enough of to form a theory. So in the Siege of Weishaupt Ghil'anain is running around in the sky but then she has deployed a Dragon she is calling an Arch demon into the struggle against the Wardens as well. While this is forming the basis of my new cooking fan theory that essentially all the Old Gods/ Arch demons are to the Evanuris what Cory's Blighted Dragon was to him, more or less, it does also provide a problem. Because consider as I have mentioned Ghil has been associated with 'moonhead' and sea creatures. We saw in the BioWare concept art of a team of fighters engaging a giant sea creature. Now maybe this has changed but there has been other connections between Ghil and Sea monsters.
Further while I do not know the context because I have not seen it but I have seen spoilerish comments to suggest that the Evanuris are also going by Luscan and Razikale to influence the Venatori. So it seems logical that the Archdemon at Weishaupt is Razikale and thus Razikale has been bound to Ghil.
But what if Razikale was originally supposed to be bound to Mythal? And Ghil just assumed the role as part of her elevation so we also both get her associated with the Arch demon that was originally tied to Mythal and her sea creature form. Which also if this theory does hold up fully, which I think I am pretty close, all the Evanuris also seemed to have other animal forms they were known by so they could transform into their chosen form and were bound to a Dragon. Well, Mythal was said to be born of the sea of the earth's tears. Of course, the Fade is also known as the Sea of Dreams, so it could just be a poetic way of saying she was a spirit of the Fade. However, we know of at least one spirit, the Lady of the Forest, who wasn't from the Fade but part of the land when Zathrian summoned her. So, it is possible that Mythal was originally a water spirit/sea spirit. She certainly has a water association through the Well of Sorrows and her Temple was surrounded by water, so there do seem strong associations there. There are definitely Sea Dragons known as Cetus and Flemeth entrusted Yavana with preserving the Great Dragons of the land. So, it may be that Mythal had both an association with the sea and with dragons. Perhaps the others wanted her out of the way not just so they could use the bligh/red lyrium but have complete control over the dragons too.
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