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Post by azarhal on Sept 14, 2024 0:16:57 GMT
The 'Primeval' thaig where the red lyrium idol/dagger was found was said to be so old that it didn't even look dwarvish to Bartrand. I don't remember any elvish statues.. The Primeval Thaig has a unique ring called the "carved ring of the Vhenadahl" as loot and Solas claims to be the master of the idol in Tevinter Nights. Both these suggest the Thaig had elven habitants at some point. The codex for it says that it's not mentioned at all in the memories and they are supposed to go back as far as the 1st Thaig, But Valdasine staff being there suggest it is that specific thaig. That codex also says the Dwarves who found it in 8:48 believe it could only have been built via magic (also it suggest the idol was taken from there in 8:48...how did it go back? or there was a set?). The Gates of Segrummar had magic involved, so magic being used for the Primeval Thaig might not be out of the ordinary back then: dragonage.fandom.com/wiki/Note:_The_Gates_of_Segrummar. But... There are multiple (techncially) none-dwarven statues in that place. One looks very similar to the "The Claw of Dumat" in Here Lies the Abyss fade section (named after the codex dragonage.fandom.com/wiki/Note:_The_Claws_of_Dumat) in DAI. Similar statues can be found elsewhere in-game. Near Heidrun Thaig in The Descent (Heidrun Thaig sit atop an empty "old god" prison). I believe the dwarven structure under Lake Calenhad (Crestwood map) also has some and that dwarven area has ambient dialogue that suggest something is wrong architecturally about it f I remember correctly. The Forbidden Oasis has a different statue in a similar style in there somewhere I think too, but it's multi-culture-central. And the Astranium caves seems to be using similar metal/design too...and that means Razikale's Reach fits too. Basically, it's a Dwarven-Elven-Tevinterish Thaig. All in all, Dwarves have been piss poor at keeping their history books and they had either Elven and/or early Tevinter help to build things.
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Post by colfoley on Sept 14, 2024 1:34:13 GMT
First though...I think you do continue to underestimate just how much individual variance can exist in each clan and down to the individual person. Yes being the god of chaos and rebellion has never been mentioned in the lore that we have heard about however, based on the lore that we do know, I've explained the reason why I find it a problem that out of nowhere a genuine Dalish clan has someone from it suddenly knowing about Fen'Harel as a rebel. In the first two games, whilst the details varied concerning how he tricked the gods into his trap, the basic ones were there that both sides saw him as an ally/friend and so trusted him. Then he tricked them, locking them away so he could reign supreme. That is so contrary to the idea of him rebelling against tyrants I do not see how this could possibly be an alternative version bearing in mind we not only hear the story from Merrill as a member of the Sabrae clan of Ferelden but Gisharel from the Rilaferin clan of Orlais. It does seem likely therefore that this was a consistent story among the priesthood of the Dales before the fall, when they were the Keepers of the lore. Then when they fled with the families of the Emerald Knights, they became the leaders of the clans. So, they are the only ones you can really call "Dalish".
However, that doesn't preclude other groups within the Dales who separated from them either before or after the fall and isolated groups of ancient elves on the fringes of the regions once dedicated to their particular god. Any of these groups might remember a different version of the story where Fen'Harel wasn't just a trickster god but a rebel against their rule. That is what I am getting at. There are a group called the Dalish who wished to preserve their ancient customs and traditions, including their stories of the past but their memory is distorted by time and likely the prejudices of those who originally passed them on. Nevertheless, there is unlikely to be great deviation between them because their whole reason for existence is to pass on that knowledge uncorrupted. They even get together regularly to ensure that is the case and adjust that knowledge if one or more of them has come up with something new.
Remember even Morrigan had not heard anything different about Fen'Harel. Bearing in mind whose daughter she was, surely she might have got the full version.
Davrin's reaction and account of Fen'Harel sounds more like a Dalish who had heard some of the rumours coming out of the Inquisition. So, why have him say it is a "legend among my kind"? Clearly it is now more than a legend if he is concerned at hearing the Dread Wolf is active in the world (surely he would dismiss it as some mad elf claiming to be the Dread Wolf?) So, he has to know more than he does. Also, why didn't he say it is a legend among the Dalish? Or even a legend among my People, the Elvhen? Instead he says "my kind". That just strikes me as a very odd thing for a Dalish to say. Fen'Harel did rebel against the gods though when he sealed them all away. He was a member of their gang, had something to do with Mythal, but he still seeled them away. The true act of the rebellion wasn't really known until Tresspasser but it still is an accurate take based on what we know about Dalish lore for a Dalish warrior to describe him thus.
Though I do wonder at the word choice...maybe he bumped into the Inquisition? Because he didn't seem too surprised that Solas was out running around. The 'Primeval' thaig where the red lyrium idol/dagger was found was said to be so old that it didn't even look dwarvish to Bartrand. I don't remember any elvish statues.. The Primeval Thaig has a unique ring called the "carved ring of the Vhenadahl" as loot and Solas claims to be the master of the idol in Tevinter Nights. Both these suggest the Thaig had elven habitants at some point. The codex for it says that it's not mentioned at all in the memories and they are supposed to go back as far as the 1st Thaig, But Valdasine staff being there suggest it is that specific thaig. That codex also says the Dwarves who found it in 8:48 believe it could only have been built via magic (also it suggest the idol was taken from there in 8:48...how did it go back? or there was a set?). The Gates of Segrummar had magic involved, so magic being used for the Primeval Thaig might not be out of the ordinary back then: dragonage.fandom.com/wiki/Note:_The_Gates_of_Segrummar. But... There are multiple (techncially) none-dwarven statues in that place. One looks very similar to the "The Claw of Dumat" in Here Lies the Abyss fade section (named after the codex dragonage.fandom.com/wiki/Note:_The_Claws_of_Dumat) in DAI. Similar statues can be found elsewhere in-game. Near Heidrun Thaig in The Descent (Heidrun Thaig sit atop an empty "old god" prison). I believe the dwarven structure under Lake Calenhad (Crestwood map) also has some and that dwarven area has ambient dialogue that suggest something is wrong architecturally about it f I remember correctly. The Forbidden Oasis has a different statue in a similar style in there somewhere I think too, but it's multi-culture-central. And the Astranium caves seems to be using similar metal/design too...and that means Razikale's Reach fits too. Basically, it's a Dwarven-Elven-Tevinterish Thaig. All in all, Dwarves have been piss poor at keeping their history books and they had either Elven and/or early Tevinter help to build things. If there are two idols running around it might explain some of the discrepensies we've been seeing about two blades also being around. Maybe one of them was Solas's and one was Mythal's? One gets purified the other one doesent? Plus it would also explain why (Vows and Vengence Episode 2 spoilers) That the 'Deathless One' whom I presume to be Elgarn'nan was looking for a 'doom blade' that can cut the fade open releasing them that I presume to be the lyrium dagger. That was another one of those odd things because given the timeline Solas probably already has possession of his so then why would they be looking for it? First blush maybe because they don't know but it would also make sense if there were two blades.
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Post by gervaise21 on Sept 14, 2024 7:34:51 GMT
I do remember that, as part of the lore of the staff Valdasine, there is a story of a Valdasine Thaig that is so rich in lyrium that it supplies the whole drawven empire with lyrium Before the coming of the darkspawn (nothing is said of how far before that event). The lore further states that the thaig was sealed internally for a time and that even a paragon was turned away. When the thaig reopened, there was no one and no sign left except for a staff of unusual metal. There was an old post on the lost BSN, about the Primeval Thaig. You could find special loot that sounded elven, and it was unique to that location. A fan made some theory about elven presence, and David Gaider replied yep it was on purpose. It sounds to me that the primeval thaig was likely one of the original ones that Mythal mined for lyrium, since she seemed to be the one exploiting the dwarves and conducting this enterprise. It is also possible this was one of those caverns that was collapsed and sealed by the rebel elves in the vision in Trespasser. The dwarven memories got somewhat muddled by the Veil, just as many of the elves did, so the story about visiting it and being turned away may have been back before the death of Mythal when the lyrium had already become corrupted and she was trying to keep it secret. The fact that David Gaider seemed to confirm there was some sort of connection with the elves before Trespasser came out seems to indicate it is all connected. I wouldn't be surprised to discover that the seal on the primeval thaig was broken at the same time as the Magisters broke into the Black City. No one discovered it previously because shortly after the Deep Roads became overrun with darkspawn. Hence us being able to discover it untouched since ancient times in DA2.
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Post by gervaise21 on Sept 14, 2024 7:52:41 GMT
All in all, Dwarves have been piss poor at keeping their history books and they had either Elven and/or early Tevinter help to build things. As I say, I think the Veil did something to the memories of all the races, so they suffered from a collective partial amnesia. After all, none of them seemed to remember there had been a time before the Veil, yet they all seemed to have a fragmented recollection of the events back then and the events surrounding the creation of the Veil. It was also hinted in the Descent that, at least in Orzammar, the Memories have been tampered with down the years. In later times it was just various rulers wanting to alter history in small ways to suit their agenda but if corruption could result in alterations in that way, perhaps it could have resulted in bigger alterations further back in time. Remember Orzammar was not the original capital of the dwarven empire. That was Kal-Sharok. For some reason, shortly after forming his alliance with Archon Darinius, King Stonehammer decided to shift his seat of power to the south. Some people suggested it was out of fear of the Vints, which is daft because they have always been on good terms. More likely it was knowing how important lyrium was to the Imperium, he wanted to oversea the mining caste, based in Orzammar, directly so he could ensure it was used to his benefit. It is also not clear when dwarves started mining the lyrium post Veil and perhaps it was only when the human mages requested it and possibly some of the dwarves in Kal-Sharok objected because they knew from their Memories there was some sort of link between lyrium and the Stone. Again, it was assumed by the dwarf giving the analysis of the artifacts that were discovered in Cad'Halash that the thaig had been attacked by Kal-Sharok after they discovered they had been giving shelter to elven fugitives from the war with Tevinter to preserve their alliance with the Imperium. What if that wasn't the case and Kal-Sharok objected to Cad'Halash giving refuge to elves because their Memories contained some sort of record of the dwarves being enslaved by the elves? It is why I really want to visit Kal-Sharok to see what might be revealed there concerning ancient history and also to finally discover how they survived for the best part of 900 years without anyone knowing about it (assuming of course no one did). They say that we will be able to almost travel back in time in some parts of the Crossroads because we will see events from the past as though we are part of them. I'm not sure whether that means we will actually be involved in the guise of Rook interacting with spirits reliving these events or that we will be seeing and participating in events through the eyes of Solas. Either way, I think we are going to discover a lot of answers there.
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Post by Reznore on Sept 14, 2024 8:13:17 GMT
Found the old post : fextralife.com/forums/t301946/the-primeval-thaig-mysteryI was on fire back in the days : Reznore - Sat Aug 06, 2011 3:17 My theory is thedas and the fade used to be one. Everybody was magic and immortal than something happen that divided the two . Probably a war between gods and as a result some were trapped and cursed in thedas. (Sandal prophecy and his "power" made me believe it.)The dwarves starIed to age and loose magic maybe they were the first ones to be actually touch by the taint. Then the human , so they turn to dumat to reclaim magic , and maybe seek the elf for help. So the war with the imperium begin.Dumat must have trick the magister into thinking that if they reach the golden city they would be saved from the taint /lost of magic and death and be "whole again". Reznore - Sat Aug 06, 2011 1:16 pmPosts Posts Avatar As i said i think thedas /the fade were one and some tragedy divided it pretty much like seperated the soul and body. Looking back on the idol , two people holding each other.Red lyrium , blood and magic? Why the elves needed the Eluvian , the human thegolden city , and what happended to the dwarves. I got some stuff wrong but hey...funny thing is towards the end of the post there's talk of Mythal/Fen Harel a bit.
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Post by gervaise21 on Sept 14, 2024 8:15:11 GMT
Plus it would also explain why (Vows and Vengence Episode 2 spoilers) Sorry but isn't the podcast set before the events of DAV? So how can the Deathless One be Elgar'nan? Yes, he wants to escape from his prison but I don't really see how this could be connected to him. Surely the Deathless One would be Solas? If there are two blades then it would make sense he would want to obtain them both. After all, he already narrowly averted disaster when he stopped ignorant mages started messing around with the idol and its blade, as Fen'Harel stated was the case in that story.
However, part of the problem I have with both the Missing and the Podcast is that we have no date for them and thus no idea when they occur in relation to the events recounted in Dread Wolf Take You. His confrontation with Charter there could have occurred after the other two stories or certainly contemporaneously with them. After all, he says at the end of the Bard's tale that he now has the idol, that he will now proceed with completing his ritual as planned and nothing can stop it. Perhaps these other items were also required for the ritual or simply to stop other people from interfering with it but I doubt he spent time running around Thedas after that meeting with Charter in the manner of the Missing and the Podcast. Just as with the comic series that started with Deception and ended with the Wraiths of Thedas, they are covering events that took place in the interval between the end of Trespasser and the beginning of DAV. For example, in the Missing there was a load of weird stuff happening in Arlathan Forest, then in the short story Ruins of Reality, Strife and Irelin recovered the halla statue that put a stop to it. When we see Arlathan Forest in DAV whilst there are some weird magical phenomena occurring there is nothing as reality warping as occurred in the Missing. Therefore, I must assume that the short story must have occurred after the Missing, not before it. However, it is possible that was another part of the forest, so I won't be upset if I am wrong about this.
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Post by gervaise21 on Sept 14, 2024 8:29:18 GMT
My theory is thedas and the fade used to be one. I don't think so, just that the demarcation between the two was less distinct back then and spirits could come and go between the two with no problem but on reaching the most "solid" state part of reality, the "Unchanging World" they took on material forms or connected with the earth itself (as the Lady of the Forest did). The Crossroads was a sort of half-way house where spirits could come and interact with the "elves" (creatures of unchanging form) without having to become one themselves. Meanwhile, any creature with a definite "form" could only cross back into the pure Fade by losing that form. The wisdom spirit in the Memories of the Vir Dirthara explains this: " The unchanging world is delicate: spells of power invite disaster and annihilation. The unchanging world is stubborn: the pull of the earth fiercely resists making fire run like water or stone rise like mist. The unchanging world rings with its own harmony. Listen with fearless hearts, and great works will unfold."
Epiphany requires a mind smooth as mirror glass, still as stone. Put aside ten years for practice, and the next hundred for searching. What others have learned will ease your journey. Those who never manifested outside the Fade will find it easier to find its stillest roots, but it is rare the compulsion overtakes our brethren of the air." See how the spirit definitely says there is a difference between the place they are standing in, which is not the Fade but the Crossroads, the Unchanging World (the solid state world) and the Fade both in the nature of reality and what sort of magic can be performed there. Why would it refer to manifesting "outside" the Fade if there was no difference between them? However, it does seem to equate the Fade with the air/sky, which is consistent with other references we have such as Skyhold being the "place where the Sky was held back" and the Avvar talking of a time when the city of the gods was easily accessible and then it wasn't because it was lifted up into the sky and was no longer accessible from the earth. When Corypheus uses the orb he opens a hole in the sky and the Temple starts to levitate towards it, partially assisted by the power of red lyrium infused in the mountain top. So, to people in the Unchanging World the Fade is up there in the sky but in reality it is a sort of parallel universe alongside the unchanging one and the Veil is a barrier between the two. (I think the writers have never been entirely clear on this which is why the lore seems to be all over the place with it but if in doubt, go with the latest version given in Trespasser).
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Post by Reznore on Sept 14, 2024 8:31:36 GMT
It was back in 2011. Before we knew Solas created the veil ^^
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Post by gervaise21 on Sept 14, 2024 8:36:21 GMT
It was back in 2011. Before we knew Solas created the veil ^^ My apologies, I was being a bit slow there. It happens sometimes. Something to do with my age I assume.
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Post by Reznore on Sept 14, 2024 8:41:36 GMT
It was back in 2011. Before we knew Solas created the veil ^^ My apologies, I was being a bit slow there. It happens sometimes. Something to do with my age I assume. No worries. I was just tooting my own horn.
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Post by colfoley on Sept 14, 2024 10:53:23 GMT
Plus it would also explain why (Vows and Vengence Episode 2 spoilers) Sorry but isn't the podcast set before the events of DAV? So how can the Deathless One be Elgar'nan? Yes, he wants to escape from his prison but I don't really see how this could be connected to him. Surely the Deathless One would be Solas? If there are two blades then it would make sense he would want to obtain them both. After all, he already narrowly averted disaster when he stopped ignorant mages started messing around with the idol and its blade, as Fen'Harel stated was the case in that story.
However, part of the problem I have with both the Missing and the Podcast is that we have no date for them and thus no idea when they occur in relation to the events recounted in Dread Wolf Take You. His confrontation with Charter there could have occurred after the other two stories or certainly contemporaneously with them. After all, he says at the end of the Bard's tale that he now has the idol, that he will now proceed with completing his ritual as planned and nothing can stop it. Perhaps these other items were also required for the ritual or simply to stop other people from interfering with it but I doubt he spent time running around Thedas after that meeting with Charter in the manner of the Missing and the Podcast. Just as with the comic series that started with Deception and ended with the Wraiths of Thedas, they are covering events that took place in the interval between the end of Trespasser and the beginning of DAV. For example, in the Missing there was a load of weird stuff happening in Arlathan Forest, then in the short story Ruins of Reality, Strife and Irelin recovered the halla statue that put a stop to it. When we see Arlathan Forest in DAV whilst there are some weird magical phenomena occurring there is nothing as reality warping as occurred in the Missing. Therefore, I must assume that the short story must have occurred after the Missing, not before it. However, it is possible that was another part of the forest, so I won't be upset if I am wrong about this. You know it is. But we also know that life forms in Thedas can reach out across the Veil when dreaming to influence others. Plenty of direct and circumstancial evidence of that. Mainly Corypheus influencing the Wardens and...even the Carta for crying out loud...and Dreamers. Chantry ideology has the Old Gods speaking out through to the Mages of the Tevinter Imperium to teach them blood magic and get them to worship them.
Which the now failry common theory is that the Old Gods, have something to do with the Evanuris, so Elgar'nan has probably been up and consiounce off and on throughout the eons trying to influence people to set him and his fellows free. So it is well within the realm of possibility that he is trying to speak to people from the Fade in order to free himself. I doubt it could be anyone else given the circumstances of the podcast and the fact we saw him being very lively in the prologue bits also means he seems to be out, awake, and trying to influence events to get himself free.
As for the rest its very likely that Solas was lying about having the idol at that point in the story. I believe it was even a common fan theory going on at the time. Even then we just don't know anything about how involved his ritual is, where he might need to go, the other resources he'd need to collect, or how many other things he would get distracted by because we know he seemed to also go off rescuing slaves and what not.
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Post by gervaise21 on Sept 14, 2024 11:26:44 GMT
But we also know that life forms in Thedas can reach out across the Veil when dreaming to influence others. Plenty of direct and circumstancial evidence of that. Mainly Corypheus influencing the Wardens and...even the Carta for crying out loud...and Dreamers. Chantry ideology has the Old Gods speaking out through to the Mages of the Tevinter Imperium to teach them blood magic and get them to worship them. Yep and we have yet to learn exactly who they are but Why would Elgar'nan be bothering with a two-bit group of pathetic people down in the depths of Ferelden? I know Corypheus reached out to people as far afield as Kirkwall but then he was located in the adjoining Vimmark Mountains, so that was probably the limit of his range. On the whole he was reacting with mages. I think that mage Warden may have done something to the Carta dwarves because she was working with them. Most of the interactions of the Old Gods (possibly Evanuris) with people outside the Fade tended to be directed towards mages of the Imperium. Whether that was due to the majority of the elven empire having been located in that vicinity or whether they just picked up on the fact that these mages seemed to be most active in interacting with the Fade, they certainly targeted the most powerful mages they could find that were up and about, rather than in Uthenera. The only ancient being speaking from the Fade to anyone other than Tevinter mages was the "Maker" speaking with Andraste. I don't think he was Elgar'nan. More likely either Mythal (because people just assumed it was male because of the whole bride thing - but Tyrdda was a spirit bride of the Lady of the Skies), or it was Solas (the Maker of the current world through his creation of the Veil). So it is well within the realm of possibility that he is trying to speak to people from the Fade in order to free himself. I doubt it could be anyone else given the circumstances of the podcast and the fact we saw him being very lively in the prologue bits also means he seems to be out, awake, and trying to influence events to get himself free. Was he really very lively prior to the prologue of DAV? If he was conscious enough to direct his thoughts, why not contact a mage in Tevinter and get their co-operation? I'll have to re-read the transcript but I really see no reason to assume Elgar'nan was in any way involved. Also, why would they call him "the Deathless One". If he is speaking to them from the Fade, that would seem obvious. Surely, it was more likely to be someone outside the Fade who appeared deathless, as that would more likely impress onlookers? As for the rest its very likely that Solas was lying about having the idol at that point in the story. I believe it was even a common fan theory going on at the time. It was when we were assuming that the game was still going to involve the hunt for him and that we assumed he span the tale to stop other people looking for the idol. It may be that it is still missing and we will need to look for it but it does seem telling that he had a ritual blade he was using and that a blade that had control over the Veil and spirits was being used by the Tevinter mage and that he withdrew it from the base of the idol. I find it easier to believe that Solas did recover the idol and the Caretaker helped him cleanse the blade than the idol is still out there waiting to be found. What I do keep asking is what became of the blade after the prologue? One minute he has it in his hand as he shoves back the pillar, then he turned to face the gods and it was gone. Also, he didn't have it in the Fade (I think he mentioned that in one of the trailers). Now it might be a possibility that the moment he let go the blade it returned to the idol. After all, what happened to the blade the Tevinter mage was holding when Fen'Harel bit off his head? The Mortalitassi said she didn't know but assumed it was either retracted or shattered by events. If that is the case, then the idol is contained somewhere within the Lighthouse (or in another location in the Crossroads) and we have to draw a new one. Otherwise, I assume he must have accidentally dropped it and it span down, nicking Rook on the way, so that is how we ended up being tied to the Fade and then one of our party recovered it or Rook did. However, everything is very confused at present when trying to make a coherent narrative out of all the associated media that has been issued. Perhaps it doesn't pay to speculate too much. Certainly they claimed that you didn't need to listen to the podcast to understand or play the game, so it probably isn't really important the identity of the bad guys who feature in it. Wasn't the main purpose to showcase the companions and possibly introduce a few other characters we may meet along the way?
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Post by azarhal on Sept 14, 2024 11:41:45 GMT
Sorry but isn't the podcast set before the events of DAV? So how can the Deathless One be Elgar'nan? Yes, he wants to escape from his prison but I don't really see how this could be connected to him. Surely the Deathless One would be Solas? If there are two blades then it would make sense he would want to obtain them both. After all, he already narrowly averted disaster when he stopped ignorant mages started messing around with the idol and its blade, as Fen'Harel stated was the case in that story.
However, part of the problem I have with both the Missing and the Podcast is that we have no date for them and thus no idea when they occur in relation to the events recounted in Dread Wolf Take You. His confrontation with Charter there could have occurred after the other two stories or certainly contemporaneously with them. After all, he says at the end of the Bard's tale that he now has the idol, that he will now proceed with completing his ritual as planned and nothing can stop it. Perhaps these other items were also required for the ritual or simply to stop other people from interfering with it but I doubt he spent time running around Thedas after that meeting with Charter in the manner of the Missing and the Podcast. Just as with the comic series that started with Deception and ended with the Wraiths of Thedas, they are covering events that took place in the interval between the end of Trespasser and the beginning of DAV. For example, in the Missing there was a load of weird stuff happening in Arlathan Forest, then in the short story Ruins of Reality, Strife and Irelin recovered the halla statue that put a stop to it. When we see Arlathan Forest in DAV whilst there are some weird magical phenomena occurring there is nothing as reality warping as occurred in the Missing. Therefore, I must assume that the short story must have occurred after the Missing, not before it. However, it is possible that was another part of the forest, so I won't be upset if I am wrong about this. You know it is. But we also know that life forms in Thedas can reach out across the Veil when dreaming to influence others. Plenty of direct and circumstancial evidence of that. Mainly Corypheus influencing the Wardens and...even the Carta for crying out loud...and Dreamers. Chantry ideology has the Old Gods speaking out through to the Mages of the Tevinter Imperium to teach them blood magic and get them to worship them.
Which the now failry common theory is that the Old Gods, have something to do with the Evanuris, so Elgar'nan has probably been up and consiounce off and on throughout the eons trying to influence people to set him and his fellows free. So it is well within the realm of possibility that he is trying to speak to people from the Fade in order to free himself. I doubt it could be anyone else given the circumstances of the podcast and the fact we saw him being very lively in the prologue bits also means he seems to be out, awake, and trying to influence events to get himself free.
As for the rest its very likely that Solas was lying about having the idol at that point in the story. I believe it was even a common fan theory going on at the time. Even then we just don't know anything about how involved his ritual is, where he might need to go, the other resources he'd need to collect, or how many other things he would get distracted by because we know he seemed to also go off rescuing slaves and what not. Its possible that in Legacy it wasn't exactly Corypheus who was manipulating people with the Taint to free him, but someone who wanted him free. He was so confuse when he woke up. Also, he used a demon in DAI to manipulate the Wardens and his near guards are all under mind control via blood magic which makes it seems like his control over tainted creature is lesser once awake.
But there is definitively entites (spirits, demons, Dreamers) that speak to people in the Fade and tells them to do stupid things. Or people sees/hear echoes and think it is meant for them. Like Drakon seeing Andraste/Shartan "Blade of the Faith" exchange and going around saying he was named Blade of the Faith by the spirit of Andraste.
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Post by gervaise21 on Sept 14, 2024 13:24:57 GMT
Like Drakon seeing Andraste/Shartan "Blade of the Faith" exchange and going around saying he was named Blade of the Faith by the spirit of Andraste.
With my Dalish hat on I was livid when I first saw that in World of Thedas 2. That he should claim a title that was given to Shartan in perpetuity and then the Chantry exclude Shartan from the Chant altogether out of political expediency (except where his presence was concealed by the title "the Liberator" instead of his using own name). However, the elves version of events in the Canticle of Shartan was something of an embarrassment to them considering that it was clear in that from the words of Andraste that she saw him as her equal in the eyes of the Maker, the leader of his people to freedom as she was of hers, rather then merely her disciple. I've always thought Drakon's "vision" was very convenient justification for his religious crusade against the other sects of the Maker and his "simplifying" of the religion as Ameridan put it when he established his Chantry as the dominant force in the south. I never understood why the faithful in Tevinter were so determined to align with the southern Chantry when they had been established for over 150 years before it came into existence. Surely, Orlais was not that powerful at the time that Tevinter needed to roll over to appease them? That never made sense to me. On that subject, though, I wonder if we are going to hear anything of the Imperial Chantry and the Black Divine in DAV? I find it strange that the Venatori should be so active in Minrathous when in theory they were in opposition to him when they supported Corypheus and from what we know of him from Asunder and Dorian, he doesn't strike me as the forgiving sort. Unless, of course, we discover he infiltrated and usurped the leadership of the Venatori for his own political ends, possibly pulling the strings from behind the scenes. He and his cronies struck me as the sort of corrupt leaders that both the Lucerni and the Shadow Dragons are opposed to, so I can see the Black Divine using the Venatori as his puppets against them. Since they have confirmed that Maevaris will be featuring in DAV, and she was always heavily involved in the politics of the Magisterium, I am hoping that this means there will be some plot threads involving this aspect of Tevinter and the true power brokers at the top of society.
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Post by q5tyhj on Sept 14, 2024 14:51:36 GMT
The Dalish are a very scattered, diverse group with different ways of living or philosophies. Even John Epler spoke about it recently - and it makes *complete sense* for small groups scattered across a big continent to differ from one another, despite common roots, or some of those clans meeting from time to time. There really is no reason to think that at least some Dalish clans couldn't have known Fen'Harel as a rebel, especially that rebellion doesn't have to exist only within a positive context - there is such a thing as being a rebel against an established world order, thus being effectively an agent of chaos who is rebellious the same way a child is rebellious... this fits within the broader characterization of Fen'Harel within the Dalish, even if some Dalish don't call him that way. I don't really see a controversy here. We see throughout history where groups that are NOT particularly scattered or diverse will quickly diverge even when it comes to preserving important religious/cultural traditions as accurately as possible. Look how quickly divisions arose within the early Christian church, within the first few generations, as it concerned the preservation of the life and teachings of the historical Jesus of Nazareth, and this was an area that had a fair amount of linguistic/geographical/religious continuity and proximity. People are not very good at agreeing with one another, even when it comes to friends, neighbors, families, members of the same religious community.
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Post by azarhal on Sept 14, 2024 15:00:11 GMT
Yeah, the silence over the involvement of the Imperial Chantry is strange. In DAI, it was clear Andrastians/Chantry was involved from the get go against Corypheus, but here there are two ancient Elven gods showing up and the Imperial Chantry isn't even among the main Factions involved in dealing with it. I'm expecting some " Ah, yes, 'Reapers'. The immortal race of sentient starships allegedly waiting in dark space. We have dismissed this claim." I mean, it's basically the same plot.
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Post by Reznore on Sept 14, 2024 15:06:51 GMT
Yeah, the silence over the involvement of the Imperial Chantry is strange. In DAI, it was clear Andrastians/Chantry was involved from the get go against Corypheus, but here there are two ancient Elven gods showing up and the Imperial Chantry isn't even among the main Factions involved in dealing with it. I'm expecting some " Ah, yes, 'Reapers'. The immortal race of sentient starships allegedly waiting in dark space. We have dismissed this claim." I mean, it's basically the same plot. The murderous Black Divine. One thing I wonder about is Cory knew quite a bit, taunting the Qunari with you're not even a race (or whatever) Dorian saw things like Solas orb before... Tevinter knew about Eluvian, just they never figure them out. I wonder how much actual lore about the ancient elves they have.
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Post by azarhal on Sept 14, 2024 16:06:17 GMT
Yeah, the silence over the involvement of the Imperial Chantry is strange. In DAI, it was clear Andrastians/Chantry was involved from the get go against Corypheus, but here there are two ancient Elven gods showing up and the Imperial Chantry isn't even among the main Factions involved in dealing with it. I'm expecting some " Ah, yes, 'Reapers'. The immortal race of sentient starships allegedly waiting in dark space. We have dismissed this claim." I mean, it's basically the same plot. The murderous Black Divine. One thing I wonder about is Cory knew quite a bit, taunting the Qunari with you're not even a race (or whatever) Dorian saw things like Solas orb before... Tevinter knew about Eluvian, just they never figure them out. I wonder how much actual lore about the ancient elves they have. I think ancient Tevinter knew what the Eluvians were for and some of their mages probably even used them. Darinius's unified Tevinter and Arlathan overlap for about 200 years before Tevinter attacked the place, there is ~1000 years before that of proto-Tevinter. And to this day, the belief is that they were at least used for "communication". That lost of knowledge is probably more the result of the 1st Blight killing so many people, but especially censure. Pretty much all the people/group in power in the setting either erase knowledge they don't like or that come from people they don't like or hide it from others for political or personal power reasons. Corypheus has the advantage that he lived thousands of years ago before a good chunk of knowledge was "purified".
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Post by gervaise21 on Sept 14, 2024 17:29:52 GMT
We see throughout history where groups that are NOT particularly scattered or diverse will quickly diverge even when it comes to preserving important religious/cultural traditions as accurately as possible. Look how quickly divisions arose within the early Christian church, within the first few generations, as it concerned the preservation of the life and teachings of the historical Jesus of Nazareth, and this was an area that had a fair amount of linguistic/geographical/religious continuity and proximity Actually it became spread across the Roman Empire pretty quickly and this meant the communities were scattered and more likely to develop ideas of their own, when the apostles weren't directly overseeing them because the faith wasn't spread by the original group splitting up and spreading out as a community but just one or two individuals travelling from place to place and starting new communities. With the Dalish they were initially a relatively small group that split up deliberately so if one group was wiped out by hostile forces, the rest would survive but the core group before the split had the same beliefs and they didn't convert any new people to the faith initially, only much later when the city elves started to flee the alienages. What I am arguing is that the idea that Solas was a rebel leader did not form part of the narrative of this group. It might have of other groups that originated in the Dales but not the group that was specifically identified as Dalish after they fled the aftermath of the Exalted March. If you want an analogy, they were the Orthodox Dalish, from which all Dalish clans subsequently descended. So, where did the idea of Solas as a rebel leader come from among this group when we only discovered it in Trespasser? Lavellan never said "Oh that's hardly surprising since X clan always maintained this was the case".
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Post by gervaise21 on Sept 14, 2024 17:54:31 GMT
Yeah, the silence over the involvement of the Imperial Chantry is strange. In DAI, it was clear Andrastians/Chantry was involved from the get go against Corypheus, but here there are two ancient Elven gods showing up and the Imperial Chantry isn't even among the main Factions involved in dealing with it. The murderous Black Divine. According to the comic series Magekiller, the Archon was doing something about the Venatori but because they had some powerful individuals in their number, he had to do it indirectly. However, the very fact Corypheus decided to conquer the south first would suggest that the Black Divine also didn't appreciate the competition and he is a very ruthless politician, not averse to using blood magic to achieve his aims. That is what so disillusioned Lambert when he was working co-operatively with this individual before he became Black Divine, helping his rise to power, because he thought he would change things once he achieved his goal. Instead, of course, like many politicians before him, once he was in place he showed his true colours, ensured all his cronies got leading positions in government and the Imperial Templars were powerless to do anything about their magical abuses. People who challenged them either wound up dead or tranquil. Dorian told us this. The Imperium were also communicating with Josephine because we were asked to adjudicate in a dispute over territory between them and Nevarra. They also confirmed they washed their hands of Alexius when his treachery was reported to them. Then they appointed Dorian as their representative at the Exalted Council so they could appear friendly towards the Inquisition, although really they wanted it gone as much as the other rulers did. This is why I am puzzled at the Venatori operating so openly in Minrathous. Vyrantium I can understand. I think they were always stronger in the south and that provided their spring board for their campaign with Corypheus. However, it seems strange the Venatori bounced back so quickly after the defeat of their Elder One when many of their leading members were either killed or imprisoned (or made tranquil) by the Inquisition. Something was clearly happening at the beginning of Trespasser though because Dorian suspected his father got him the position as ambassador in order to get him back down south away from harm. Then shortly after that he was assassinated. Whilst his prestige had been dented somewhat by Dorian's antics a few years earlier and he had to resign from the Consiliare to the Archon (his inner circle of advisers) as a result, nevertheless he did still seem to have influence enough that he could pull strings on behalf of his son. So, without a doubt that was a politically motivated assassination, likely carried out on behalf of members of the Venatori. I can understand Maevaris and Dorian making enemies of the Black Divine in particular with their Lucerni but I would have thought the Venatori would be the Black Divine's enemies too. Also, Tevinter made such a poor defense of the eastern side of the Imperium when they were hardly caught off guard as they were during the Steel Age. So, something is going on in the Magisterium. It will be really interesting and informative to see how they respond to the return of the elven gods. As for not being among the factions working with us, well Charter mentioned in Tevinter Nights how she had contacted the Tevinter Sicarri (the official spy network of the Imperium) and invited them to her meeting but they declined, so that would explain them not being involved. I am surprised the Lucerni aren't among the factions but may be they still aren't large enough to make a difference. They did, after all, only comprise of idealistic young Magisters, who wanted to get rid of corruption in the ruling elite whilst maintaining the status quo, whereas the Shadow Dragons have a much bigger power base to call upon from those wanting regime change among the Laetans, Soporati, Liberati and slaves.
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Post by q5tyhj on Sept 14, 2024 21:24:29 GMT
We see throughout history where groups that are NOT particularly scattered or diverse will quickly diverge even when it comes to preserving important religious/cultural traditions as accurately as possible. Look how quickly divisions arose within the early Christian church, within the first few generations, as it concerned the preservation of the life and teachings of the historical Jesus of Nazareth, and this was an area that had a fair amount of linguistic/geographical/religious continuity and proximity Actually it became spread across the Roman Empire pretty quickly and this meant the communities were scattered and more likely to develop ideas of their own, when the apostles weren't directly overseeing them because the faith wasn't spread by the original group splitting up and spreading out as a community but just one or two individuals travelling from place to place and starting new communities. With the Dalish they were initially a relatively small group that split up deliberately so if one group was wiped out by hostile forces, the rest would survive but the core group before the split had the same beliefs and they didn't convert any new people to the faith initially, only much later when the city elves started to flee the alienages. What I am arguing is that the idea that Solas was a rebel leader did not form part of the narrative of this group. It might have of other groups that originated in the Dales but not the group that was specifically identified as Dalish after they fled the aftermath of the Exalted March. If you want an analogy, they were the Orthodox Dalish, from which all Dalish clans subsequently descended. So, where did the idea of Solas as a rebel leader come from among this group when we only discovered it in Trespasser? Lavellan never said "Oh that's hardly surprising since X clan always maintained this was the case". I'm talking about the divisions and disagreements between various churches and groups before the end of the first century, all within a fairly small geographical area. Not Christianity spreading across Rome over the first few centuries. Drastically different accounts of the facts/histories in the Gospels (both canonical and non-canonical, even gnostic), possible disagreements between the disciples themselves, we have a record of Paul constantly trying to correct various heresies and misunderstandings in the churches he founded. The spectrum of accounts of Jesus and Christianity that existed by the end of the first century was already rather incredible. So the idea that something similar happened among the elves isn't implausible, and it is consistently with how these sorts of things have occurred historically. The early development of other faiths (Judaism and Islam for instance) followed somewhat similar arcs as well, as I understand.
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Post by colfoley on Sept 15, 2024 8:08:45 GMT
But we also know that life forms in Thedas can reach out across the Veil when dreaming to influence others. Plenty of direct and circumstancial evidence of that. Mainly Corypheus influencing the Wardens and...even the Carta for crying out loud...and Dreamers. Chantry ideology has the Old Gods speaking out through to the Mages of the Tevinter Imperium to teach them blood magic and get them to worship them. Yep and we have yet to learn exactly who they are but Why would Elgar'nan be bothering with a two-bit group of pathetic people down in the depths of Ferelden? I know Corypheus reached out to people as far afield as Kirkwall but then he was located in the adjoining Vimmark Mountains, so that was probably the limit of his range. On the whole he was reacting with mages. I think that mage Warden may have done something to the Carta dwarves because she was working with them. Most of the interactions of the Old Gods (possibly Evanuris) with people outside the Fade tended to be directed towards mages of the Imperium. Whether that was due to the majority of the elven empire having been located in that vicinity or whether they just picked up on the fact that these mages seemed to be most active in interacting with the Fade, they certainly targeted the most powerful mages they could find that were up and about, rather than in Uthenera. The only ancient being speaking from the Fade to anyone other than Tevinter mages was the "Maker" speaking with Andraste. I don't think he was Elgar'nan. More likely either Mythal (because people just assumed it was male because of the whole bride thing - but Tyrdda was a spirit bride of the Lady of the Skies), or it was Solas (the Maker of the current world through his creation of the Veil). So it is well within the realm of possibility that he is trying to speak to people from the Fade in order to free himself. I doubt it could be anyone else given the circumstances of the podcast and the fact we saw him being very lively in the prologue bits also means he seems to be out, awake, and trying to influence events to get himself free. Was he really very lively prior to the prologue of DAV? If he was conscious enough to direct his thoughts, why not contact a mage in Tevinter and get their co-operation? I'll have to re-read the transcript but I really see no reason to assume Elgar'nan was in any way involved. Also, why would they call him "the Deathless One". If he is speaking to them from the Fade, that would seem obvious. Surely, it was more likely to be someone outside the Fade who appeared deathless, as that would more likely impress onlookers? As for the rest its very likely that Solas was lying about having the idol at that point in the story. I believe it was even a common fan theory going on at the time. It was when we were assuming that the game was still going to involve the hunt for him and that we assumed he span the tale to stop other people looking for the idol. It may be that it is still missing and we will need to look for it but it does seem telling that he had a ritual blade he was using and that a blade that had control over the Veil and spirits was being used by the Tevinter mage and that he withdrew it from the base of the idol. I find it easier to believe that Solas did recover the idol and the Caretaker helped him cleanse the blade than the idol is still out there waiting to be found. What I do keep asking is what became of the blade after the prologue? One minute he has it in his hand as he shoves back the pillar, then he turned to face the gods and it was gone. Also, he didn't have it in the Fade (I think he mentioned that in one of the trailers). Now it might be a possibility that the moment he let go the blade it returned to the idol. After all, what happened to the blade the Tevinter mage was holding when Fen'Harel bit off his head? The Mortalitassi said she didn't know but assumed it was either retracted or shattered by events. If that is the case, then the idol is contained somewhere within the Lighthouse (or in another location in the Crossroads) and we have to draw a new one. Otherwise, I assume he must have accidentally dropped it and it span down, nicking Rook on the way, so that is how we ended up being tied to the Fade and then one of our party recovered it or Rook did. However, everything is very confused at present when trying to make a coherent narrative out of all the associated media that has been issued. Perhaps it doesn't pay to speculate too much. Certainly they claimed that you didn't need to listen to the podcast to understand or play the game, so it probably isn't really important the identity of the bad guys who feature in it. Wasn't the main purpose to showcase the companions and possibly introduce a few other characters we may meet along the way? I think the two issues kind of intersect with one another. Though I am ninety nine point nine percent sure we are in the hinterlands of Tevinter and not the Imperium.
But why wouldn't he go and talk to a mage/ why would he try and influence a random group of no bodies?
A. Who says he hasn't yet? Assumign this is him we are talking about. But I believe I have stated my pet theory, or at least implied it, that Elgar'nan is going to be related to the Imperium and Nevarran parts of the plot. Sure he might pop up here and there in other areas, and the same goes for Ghil, but I think his main involvement with the plan will be in those two areas for reasons I have kind of discussed. But both areas involve mages...and I believe you have referenced that he might try and influence the Mortalassi. I myself think that the Venatori and their usage of Red Lyrium will also make them suspetable to his control and machinations. So its more then conceivable that he has gone about trying to secure mage help, even while still stuck in the Fade.
B. In the event he hasn't to this point...yet...why would he? Like the pretty common theory and its implications is that he and his compatriots within the Evanuris were the ones influcing ancient Tevinter and the Magisters Sidereal into doing their thing to breach the Golden City. Either being the Old Gods themselves or pretending to be them. From there its not that much of a stretch to imagine, since the Blight weakens the veil, whether or not they have a direct hand in it or just are watching the events they set in motion, that its their plan to Blight the world which will crack the Veil and then they'll be free to rule. Also blighting the world seemed to be their original plan. The thing of it though is that this plan seemed to have sort of failed. The Magisters weren't able to set them free before being cast back to Thedas and so far the Blights themselves don't seem to be that successful in freeing them either. This could result them looking at contigencies or a new plan entirely...one that involves a random group of nobodies since mages are really powerful and they tend to draw a lot of attention. If the remaining Evanuris went out of their way to influence mages too quickly someone is bound to notice which would cause isues. Random nobodies can sneak under the radar especially if they can find a singular weapon capable of collapsing the Veil.
As for the Deathless One thing. You are right and its not something I really considered. Admittedly my first thought is that is a name more befitting Ghil'anain but I still don't think she is going to be very intelligent or a master planner. That could be a woeful underestimation...but the idea that it could be someone trying to breach the Fade to get to the Blakc City from our end does have some merit. The issue is I can't think of a single candidate beyond Solas and this group really does not seem to fit his MO so it would be pretty indirect.
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Post by gervaise21 on Sept 15, 2024 9:03:00 GMT
So the idea that something similar happened among the elves isn't implausible, and it is consistently with how these sorts of things have occurred historically. My point is that people outside the elves might view them all as "Dalish", in the same way it was people outside those early communities called everyone Christians. In fact the earliest community led by the apostles didn't call themselves Christians, that was the way people not of the faith identified those broadly identifying with Jesus, starting in Antioch, not Jerusalem. The original core group led by the Apostles called themselves followers of "The Way" and this is how St Paul described himself to the Roman governor Felix, admitting that people regard them as a sect of Judaism, which essentially is what they were originally. As their message spread among the Gentiles, this was when they had increasing problems with people identifying themselves and being identified by others as Christians, even though it wasn't the authentic, orthodox teaching of the apostles. So, I will concede that something similar could have happened with the survivors of the Dales. Originally the Chantry identified all those renegade elves that they hadn't been able to round up as Dalish even if they had never been part of the group that fled across the Frostbacks. In fact even the Dalish don't actually call themselves Dalish but the last of the Elvhen, as in "we are the last of the Elvhen and never again will we submit", not we are the last of the Dalish. They may respond to such a descriptor when dealing with humans because they know that is how they are described by them and it distinguishes them from the elves who live among the humans in the cities. That is the point I am trying to make. Firstly, just because a non-elf describes someone as "Dalish" it doesn't mean they necessarily trace back to the Dalish clans of Ferelden, although they may trace back to the elves of the Dales. Likewise, if a strange elf describes themselves as Dalish, they likely do that for convenience to avoid lengthy explanation and also avoid awkward questions, just as Solas was happy to accept the descriptor Apostate even though he had never been part of a Circle and had only just returned to the Waking World, so technically could not even be accused of having disobeyed Chantry law in roaming free. It was just much easier and less suspicious to allow people to call him that. However, it is less confusing when discussing these matters to identify those adhering to the traditions taught by the Keepers as true Dalish and those outside of these traditions as something else. We know there are more than just city elves and Dalish roaming the world, particularly after Solas became active again but even before that judging by the activities of Felassan. We also know that Abelas, an ancient elf, does not regard the Dalish as part of the Elvhen People, even if they think they are. They are "shadows wearing vallaslin". Thus if a member of Abelas community were to turn up claiming to be Elvhen he would be telling the truth but if he claimed to be Dalish he would not, he would be merely identifying with them or allowing other people to identify him with them for convenience, just as Felassan did. In view of this, if my PC can be assumed to be authentic Dalish and things the other elf says sound off to my ears, I would like the opportunity to question them on it. Which clan are you from? Where do they live? How long have they been there? What is your version of the story of Fen'Harel? I don't want to be just fobbed off with "oh the clans have grown apart over the years" and leave it at that. Davrin speaks of a legend of Fen'Harel among "my kind". Formerly a Dalish would either say among the elvhen, among my people, or for the benefit of a non-elf, among the Dalish. It is not part of the normal speech pattern of Dalish to refer to themselves as "my kind". Likewise, when he talks about the wolf totem he doesn't say they are a feature of his clan or common among his kind but that the "Dalish of Arlathan" have them, thereby distinguishing them as a group from him. That's what I found odd and that is why I want to be able to quiz him on this should something similar arise in game. It would be a natural enough thing to do since I intend playing as a Dalish elf again and thus I would pick up on the difference.
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Black Magic Ritual
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Post by Black Magic Ritual on Sept 18, 2024 21:38:22 GMT
Who would've had the most to gain from the Blights? I mean, if it was a cordinated attack, who would've gained from Tevinter and the Dwarven Empires being destroyed and most of the population being killed in the process?
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Post by azarhal on Sept 18, 2024 22:49:06 GMT
Who would've had the most to gain from the Blights? I mean, if it was a cordinated attack, who would've gained from Tevinter and the Dwarven Empires being destroyed and most of the population being killed in the process? I don't think the end goal of the tainted "would-be-gods" is to kill everyone. They want to be worshipped and scare the mass into doing it like Corypheus was doing. As Solas says about the cult in the Hinterlands (paraphrasing): make sense that people would worship the Breach in the hope of appeasing it. Now thought, I actually have the crazy theory that the Taint itself wants to wipe out all life and is manipulating those that contact it to achieve that goal. I've seen people think of the Taint as some sort of bacteria or fungus, but I think it is an antibody and humans, elves, dwarve, qunari are seen as the bacteria/virus to eliminate.
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