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Post by gervaise21 on Sept 2, 2024 8:58:51 GMT
I remembered correctly that there was a human ghost in there (no pointy ear on the boy, the lady ghost don't seem to have them either) speaking Elven. I think this was simply laziness or a lack of attention to detail because the pair of them were meant to have been elven. However, I have checked back and found the memory of the spirit you were referring to: You see a place of serenity, where the Eldest come to slumber and are visited by those who offer tribute to the gods on their behalf. The Presence's memories of what happened there are uncertain. There are flashes of violence, of war.. but it is all too long ago. None of it is clear. The Presence remembers the humans. This was a time even after the humans had come. It was they who had built this place, long before. Perhaps the war was with other humans. Perhaps it was with something else, something that killed both the humans and elves that were here. It is not clear. You see images of a great battle, elves and humans both screaming and attempting to flee from some terrible presence. What that presence was is blurry and lost to time. The Presence fled the destruction by using the Life Gem, escaping its body. It was sure that someone would come, to rescue it. But no one did. Not until now.Sadly, we are likely not to discover what was being alluded to here. Clearly there was a history before the Arcane Warrior came there but it is possible that the humans only repurposed what was already there. The Imperium did establish outposts as far south as Ostagar and even infiltrated the Frostback Basin at one point, so it is not beyond the bounds of possibility they used an ancient elven ruin and claimed it as their own (as they had done elsewhere across Thedas). The Poet Tree said the forest was planted by the elves, so there must have been an elven presence there too before the humans arrived. I doubt the ritual of the elder entering Uthenera was connected with the Imperium but a much earlier period. At the point the Arcane Warrior lived it does seem as though there were humans and elves coexisting in the same place and that would seem to tie in with the fact that ancient elven lore got mixed in with that of the Alamaari. Did the presence that killed the inhabitants object to their coexistence or did it just object to them generally? Could it have been an attack by darkspawn during the 1st Blight? There was certainly activity in southern Ferelden and it is thought it was darkspawn that likely destroyed the kossith colony down there at that time. If not, then perhaps it was this mysterious evil that attacked them all. I think it was more likely a major darkspawn incursion that killed them. It would make sense considering we were now dealing with another Blight. However, there was something weird going on in the area involving some evil magic and a date subsequent to Andraste's time because of the rituals involved with the Black Vials, one of which is found on a revenant in a chamber close to the altar of the Arcane Warrior. Some sort of cult was perhaps in the area because of the six revenants associated with the binding ritual to keep them from walking abroad and harming people. The person binding them called on Andraste to make the ritual permanent and it seemed to involve blood relatives to seal its effects. That is interesting because Malcolm Hawke was used to bind demons to Corypheus' prison with blood magic to prevent his escape. So, clearly the Wardens knew about this ancient ritual. Rather ironic that the one in Brecillian Forest used Andraste's name in connection with it but at the time the Wardens conducted their ritual on Corypheus this was before the establishment of the Andrastrian faith, so likely their mages were from Tevinter and were calling on their knowledge of rituals used at that time. Another item of interest to note. They bound the host and the demon inhabiting them by using the host's true name. Rasaan was searching for Solas' true name. May be she knew of this ancient ritual and wanted to use it to imprison him.
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Post by colfoley on Sept 5, 2024 8:25:32 GMT
Finished reading through Luck in the Gardens and keeping in mind the theory that I heard via gervaise21 that the protagonist in it was supposed to be Taash. I don't think so. But in doing so and probably in the same vein I have another possibility in mind in a 'crazy theory sense' that occured to me when reading while keeping the above in mind. 'Hollix' is a Rook, or Rook before they became Rook obviously. So what gives me this idea? Hollix has no defined race, nor gender, nor class really. (Opposed to Taash who is very much a Qunari and seems to be definitley female). Further Dorian obviously knows Hollix working with them in the short story against the Cekorax and I believe it was mentioned in the initial gameplay demo of the prologue that Varric heard of Rook through a friend in Minrathous, which some people have assumed is Dorian. Now this last bit might be a bit flimsy...actually it all is. Biggest counter point is that Hollix is repeatedly reffered to as a Lord of Fortune. But remember Tevinter Nights was written really early in the process, maybe before they settled on Rook being multi faction and there was a lot of speculation back in the day that Lord of Fortune would be the faction given how much it seemed to be a natural faction for an RPG protagonist. Either way though its also likely that, much like with Origins, that there could be other versions of Rook still out there in the world where something happens to them whereas the Rook we are gets to just saunter on. It'll be curious to see if we get some reference to these other potential Rooks, or specifically 'Hollix' in the codex?
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Post by gervaise21 on Sept 5, 2024 8:57:34 GMT
Finished reading through Luck in the Gardens and keeping in mind the theory that I heard via gervaise21 that the protagonist in it was supposed to be Taash. That wasn't me. I don't recall even reading that was a theory. The only one I've seen associated with Luck in the Gardens had to do with the Forgotten/Forbidden Ones and the Old Gods. Someone once suggested the Cekorax might be the Formless One. I suppose Hollix could have been proto Rook but I doubt that too. From what they've said about companions who featured in Tevinter Nights, they had already settled upon them as such when TN was written, so it was the deliberate intent to introduce them there. Then the other stories featured factions, or later members of factions, that we hadn't already encountered in Thedas. Thus, the emphasis on the Lords of Fortune involved in three different stories so they could try and persuade us they had always been active in the world, just for some reason we had never heard of them. Meanwhile, Strife and Irelin were introduced there and then featured in a later short story because of their connection with founding the Veil Jumpers. The Grey Wardens also featured in more than one story, with Evka and Antoine introduced not as permanent companions but likely contacts we will have dealings with. It was clear the Wardens were going to be important going forward and people have suggested that the Warden on the cover was meant to be Davrin even though we never encounter him in the actual text. The Mourn Watch/Mortalitassi also featured in more than one story. The other thing they seemed to be trying to do was lessen the previous perception given in the games of the Crows as the bad guys. Whilst we could work with them on some War Table missions in DAI, and if we chose to do so with that Crow in DAO, on the whole our interaction with them had been largely negative previously in the series. This was also true of the various comics up until the Missing. Now Viago and Teia are on the side of the good guys, only I assume because Lucanis royally pissed off the Venatori in Tevinter and also they have no intention of bowing the knee either to the Qun or the gods. We know from the original pink book cover that Rook was likely always the concept for DAV as was their relationship with Solas, as illustrated by the wolf head hovering over them wreathed in the fires of the Fade. So, in view of all six factions (if you count Strife as a Veil Jumper) featuring in Tevinter Nights, I think even back then it was established that they would be part of one of them (although given the game has switched from single player to multi-player and then back again, it is possible that Rook changed around a bit too as a result. What I do think is possible is that they only decided upon our group as the Veilguard at a late stage because it seems strange to me that they should give the same prefix to both one of our possible factions and the name of the group as a whole. The Veil Jumpers is rather a goofy name for people that, as far as we know, weren't running around "jumping" the Veil before the game but at the same time how was our group meant to be guarding the Veil? At the introduction to the story we were just trying to stop Solas from performing his ritual. The Qun were the only ones taking positive steps to strengthen/guard the Veil and they aren't involved with the Veilguard at all directly. Now our remit seems to have switched to dealing with the gods and seeing as they have already breached the Crossroads and are changing it, I doubt anything we could do to "guard" the Veil is going to prevent them for acting as they please. If anything I would have though a better name would have been God Hunters or even the Resistance. The latter could have equally applied to either people combating Solas or the other gods, so would not have been a spoiler for the game if they hadn't decided to reveal the main plot before release.
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Post by illuminated11 on Sept 5, 2024 10:08:06 GMT
Finished reading through Luck in the Gardens and keeping in mind the theory that I heard via gervaise21 that the protagonist in it was supposed to be Taash. I don't think so. But in doing so and probably in the same vein I have another possibility in mind in a 'crazy theory sense' that occured to me when reading while keeping the above in mind. 'Hollix' is a Rook, or Rook before they became Rook obviously. So what gives me this idea? Hollix has no defined race, nor gender, nor class really. (Opposed to Taash who is very much a Qunari and seems to be definitley female). Further Dorian obviously knows Hollix working with them in the short story against the Cekorax and I believe it was mentioned in the initial gameplay demo of the prologue that Varric heard of Rook through a friend in Minrathous, which some people have assumed is Dorian. Now this last bit might be a bit flimsy...actually it all is. Biggest counter point is that Hollix is repeatedly reffered to as a Lord of Fortune. But remember Tevinter Nights was written really early in the process, maybe before they settled on Rook being multi faction and there was a lot of speculation back in the day that Lord of Fortune would be the faction given how much it seemed to be a natural faction for an RPG protagonist. Either way though its also likely that, much like with Origins, that there could be other versions of Rook still out there in the world where something happens to them whereas the Rook we are gets to just saunter on. It'll be curious to see if we get some reference to these other potential Rooks, or specifically 'Hollix' in the codex? I was the one who mentioned Taash is Hollix theory, although it was just something I’d heard offhand and thought sounded neat. Plus Taash already has one horn she can take off, I could maybe see her finding a way to disguise the other as well to pass as very tall human.
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Post by colfoley on Sept 5, 2024 10:41:59 GMT
Finished reading through Luck in the Gardens and keeping in mind the theory that I heard via gervaise21 that the protagonist in it was supposed to be Taash. That wasn't me. I don't recall even reading that was a theory. The only one I've seen associated with Luck in the Gardens had to do with the Forgotten/Forbidden Ones and the Old Gods. Someone once suggested the Cekorax might be the Formless One. I suppose Hollix could have been proto Rook but I doubt that too. From what they've said about companions who featured in Tevinter Nights, they had already settled upon them as such when TN was written, so it was the deliberate intent to introduce them there. Then the other stories featured factions, or later members of factions, that we hadn't already encountered in Thedas. Thus, the emphasis on the Lords of Fortune involved in three different stories so they could try and persuade us they had always been active in the world, just for some reason we had never heard of them. Meanwhile, Strife and Irelin were introduced there and then featured in a later short story because of their connection with founding the Veil Jumpers. The Grey Wardens also featured in more than one story, with Evka and Antoine introduced not as permanent companions but likely contacts we will have dealings with. It was clear the Wardens were going to be important going forward and people have suggested that the Warden on the cover was meant to be Davrin even though we never encounter him in the actual text. The Mourn Watch/Mortalitassi also featured in more than one story. The other thing they seemed to be trying to do was lessen the previous perception given in the games of the Crows as the bad guys. Whilst we could work with them on some War Table missions in DAI, and if we chose to do so with that Crow in DAO, on the whole our interaction with them had been largely negative previously in the series. This was also true of the various comics up until the Missing. Now Viago and Teia are on the side of the good guys, only I assume because Lucanis royally pissed off the Venatori in Tevinter and also they have no intention of bowing the knee either to the Qun or the gods. We know from the original pink book cover that Rook was likely always the concept for DAV as was their relationship with Solas, as illustrated by the wolf head hovering over them wreathed in the fires of the Fade. So, in view of all six factions (if you count Strife as a Veil Jumper) featuring in Tevinter Nights, I think even back then it was established that they would be part of one of them (although given the game has switched from single player to multi-player and then back again, it is possible that Rook changed around a bit too as a result. What I do think is possible is that they only decided upon our group as the Veilguard at a late stage because it seems strange to me that they should give the same prefix to both one of our possible factions and the name of the group as a whole. The Veil Jumpers is rather a goofy name for people that, as far as we know, weren't running around "jumping" the Veil before the game but at the same time how was our group meant to be guarding the Veil? At the introduction to the story we were just trying to stop Solas from performing his ritual. The Qun were the only ones taking positive steps to strengthen/guard the Veil and they aren't involved with the Veilguard at all directly. Now our remit seems to have switched to dealing with the gods and seeing as they have already breached the Crossroads and are changing it, I doubt anything we could do to "guard" the Veil is going to prevent them for acting as they please. If anything I would have though a better name would have been God Hunters or even the Resistance. The latter could have equally applied to either people combating Solas or the other gods, so would not have been a spoiler for the game if they hadn't decided to reveal the main plot before release. Finished reading through Luck in the Gardens and keeping in mind the theory that I heard via gervaise21 that the protagonist in it was supposed to be Taash. I don't think so. But in doing so and probably in the same vein I have another possibility in mind in a 'crazy theory sense' that occured to me when reading while keeping the above in mind. 'Hollix' is a Rook, or Rook before they became Rook obviously. So what gives me this idea? Hollix has no defined race, nor gender, nor class really. (Opposed to Taash who is very much a Qunari and seems to be definitley female). Further Dorian obviously knows Hollix working with them in the short story against the Cekorax and I believe it was mentioned in the initial gameplay demo of the prologue that Varric heard of Rook through a friend in Minrathous, which some people have assumed is Dorian. Now this last bit might be a bit flimsy...actually it all is. Biggest counter point is that Hollix is repeatedly reffered to as a Lord of Fortune. But remember Tevinter Nights was written really early in the process, maybe before they settled on Rook being multi faction and there was a lot of speculation back in the day that Lord of Fortune would be the faction given how much it seemed to be a natural faction for an RPG protagonist. Either way though its also likely that, much like with Origins, that there could be other versions of Rook still out there in the world where something happens to them whereas the Rook we are gets to just saunter on. It'll be curious to see if we get some reference to these other potential Rooks, or specifically 'Hollix' in the codex? I was the one who mentioned Taash is Hollix theory, although it was just something I’d heard offhand and thought sounded neat. Plus Taash already has one horn she can take off, I could maybe see her finding a way to disguise the other as well to pass as very tall human. oops sorry about that.
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Post by Black Magic Ritual on Sept 8, 2024 3:38:27 GMT
If the Donarks was protected from the Blight, could a Donark (human/elf) be immune to the blight?
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Post by midnight tea on Sept 8, 2024 4:26:16 GMT
If the Donarks was protected from the Blight, could a Donark (human/elf) be immune to the blight? Depends what's protected them, I guess.
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Post by Black Magic Ritual on Sept 8, 2024 12:15:41 GMT
If the Evanuris really were the source/responsible for the Blights, why would they leave out the Donarks? Why would Donarks (and the people there) be singled out for survival, and not Arlathan?
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Post by gervaise21 on Sept 8, 2024 13:06:17 GMT
If the Donarks was protected from the Blight, could a Donark (human/elf) be immune to the blight? We don't know it was protected from the Blight. May be the monsters up there are already tainted. Alternatively, perhaps there is a reason the darkspawn tend to congregate around the southern part of the Anderfels and didn't get further north on the surface. Remember they do stay below ground most of the time and tend to be drawn towards the location of the Old Gods (or possibly the Old Gods remains at Weisshaupt - it was using Dumat's corpse that enabled them to catch Corypheus). Presumably none of the Old Gods were located under the Donarks so that enabled it to remain largely taint free.
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Post by midnight tea on Sept 10, 2024 5:12:35 GMT
Hmmm... I'm fairly certain this has been brought up, but I haven't seen this speculation discussed anywhere recently, so here it is. There is a codex entry we can find in Descent that talks a bit about the origin of the darkspawn, and it mentions this: While this is just an in-universe speculation on the author's part, I wouldn't be surprised if there was some truth in this - that somewhere deep down sits a monstrous mother of monsters (this world's version of Tiamat or Echidna - mothers of monsters, but also mothers of dragons that were also often portrayed as draconic creatures themselves) that may be the originator of the first tainted creatures, and the threat of the darkspawn will always exist so long as she exists. And I have a feeling that that first mother could be Mythal. Or rather, what's left of her after her Evanuris brethren killed her, and potentially used her body and power to do something terrible (with the likely help of Ghila'nain), like potentially linking her or making her a repository of some sort of sinister, ancient power. She was known as the Mother in Elvenhan, so perhaps her role and function were what they needed. Flemythal, after all, makes it quite clear in Inquisition that she's just a wisp of an ancient being, and tells Morrigan and Inquisitor that the soul of the Archdemon is a mere piece "of what once was, snatched from the jaws of darkness" - so it's not like small parts can't be separated from a bigger whole. Then there's, of course, a question of the existence and role of Red Lyrium Idol that bears a resemblance to a woman with a spiked crown, similar to what Flemythal is wearing, making it obvious that Mythal bears some connection to the Blight, even if there is no Prime Broodmother. So, what's been left of ancient Mythal may have - through actions of Evanuris interested in consolidating power through whatever means necessary - become a tainted, twisted entity so overcome by rage/negative feelings that it may be a threat to all, and this is the final 'reckoning' Flemythal is talking about (even though her conscious part has escaped that rage and crawled back into the world to do something about this). The betrayal itself would be enough to deeply anger Mythal and Solas, but if this speculation is more or less true, one would get even more why they seemed to be pissed off by the actions of the Evanuris.
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Post by gervaise21 on Sept 10, 2024 8:43:37 GMT
And I have a feeling that that first mother could be Mythal. Or rather, what's left of her after her Evanuris brethren killed her, and potentially used her body and power to do something terrible (with the likely help of Ghila'nain), like potentially linking her or making her a repository of some sort of sinister, ancient power. She was known as the Mother in Elvenhan, so perhaps her role and function were what they needed. Flemythal, after all, makes it quite clear in Inquisition that she's just a wisp of an ancient being, and tells Morrigan and Inquisitor that the soul of the Archdemon is a mere piece "of what once was, snatched from the jaws of darkness" - so it's not like small parts can't be separated from a bigger whole. Then there's, of course, a question of the existence and role of Red Lyrium Idol that bears a resemblance to a woman with a spiked crown, similar to what Flemythal is wearing, making it obvious that Mythal bears some connection to the Blight, even if there is no Prime Broodmother. So, what's been left of ancient Mythal may have - through actions of Evanuris interested in consolidating power through whatever means necessary - become a tainted, twisted entity so overcome by rage/negative feelings that it may be a threat to all, and this is the final 'reckoning' Flemythal is talking about (even though her conscious part has escaped that rage and crawled back into the world to do something about this). The betrayal itself would be enough to deeply anger Mythal and Solas, but if this speculation is more or less true, one would get even more why they seemed to be pissed off by the actions of the Evanuris. I've long thought this could be the case. It would also explain why with respect to the idol he said this of himself when pretending to be the Orlesian bard who witnessed this: " Slowly he lifted the red lyrium idol from the pillow where it rested. He whispered something as he picked it up, tracing his gloved fingers gently along the crowned figure who comforted the other, but I could not make out the words, for I fear they were elven." Why would he seem to trace his fingers as though with reverence and affection? Why would he stress that the central figure is comforting the other when that is not what you would generally assume from looking at it? Even Charter seemed to think this was one of the most important pieces of information she took from that meeting. In fact whilst she wrote a general report, everything she thought was important came from Solas himself. I think we should also take note of his final words at the end of his tale: "The idol's journey is now complete and it has found its master. He will destroy anyone in his way without regret or hesitation, and whatever he intends, I do not believe we can stop it.Rook may have temporarily halted his plan but Solas is committed to his path and is nothing if not resourceful. Whilst we are running around dealing with his old enemies, he has plenty of time to come up with an alternative way of achieving his aims. The Slow Arrow may yet prevail.
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Post by azarhal on Sept 10, 2024 13:03:06 GMT
If the Arbor Wilds mosaics represent the Evanuris as blighted monsters, then Mythal holding a bunch of little elves is actually Mythal holding a bunch of little darkspawns. It also means Andruil mosaic do show her tentacles. Might explain why the darkspawns in DAO all have pointy ears except the Hurlocks too...and I'm now pretty sure the coffins under Ishal toward had darkspawns in it now. After replaying DA2, Solas claiming he is the master of the idol raise so many questions. Like dude, that thing evil, cause everyone who hold it too long to go cray-cray and eat the stuff. What does that makes you? What the hell was that Thaig all about, looked like a crazy cult place. Also, did you use to be a darkspawn/ghoul? Are you still a darkspawn/ghoul?
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Post by Reznore on Sept 10, 2024 13:25:26 GMT
If memory serves some elves went to the Thaig to hide from something. Some dwarves got sealed in there as well, left to eat their "gods" I believe the lyrium from Titans. I imagine the red lyrium idol got corrupted and was made of normal lyrium, it's possible the current dagger is the same one?
Keeping in the mind the old God underground might have been part of a ritual to lock up the Evanuris in the Golden City. I imagine Solas was trying to trap the Gods and contain the Blight at the same time. It possible he went to a couple of Thaig or just this one, did whatever, some lyrium got blighted and he sealed the place. Collapsing Thaigs after magic went wrong seems to have been an elven pastime.
The Red Lyrium idol might be showing an emaciated Mythal with unknown followers grabbing onto her while they are getting swallowed by a maw of unknow origin. Perhaps it's a replica of her murder. Solas partly did what he did to avenge her.
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Post by gervaise21 on Sept 10, 2024 13:55:08 GMT
After replaying DA2, Solas claiming he is the master of the idol raise so many questions. It is possible he said that to put people off searching for it further. I must admit I thought the idol could have been the weapon that he claimed to know the location of that he used to lure the Evanuris into his trap. Perhaps he was the one who left it sealed in the ancient thaig. Perhaps he is the only person who can withstand its corrupting influence (and Sandal possibly). We've assumed his lyrium dagger was taken from it, in which case he successfully cleansed it and returned it to pure lyrium, which we know must be possible as Merrill succeeded in cleansing her eluvian. She just needed the help of a friendly demon. May be Solas had the help of the Caretaker. He also laid claim to the idol in the previous story by the Mortalitassi, when he said they were using it carelessly to "vandalise the sea of dreams". It is possible that he didn't actually create it and that was the work of one of the other Evanuris but he considers that no mere mortal is entitled to it. Also the peculiar appearance and nature of the idol could indicate that it also has a piece of Mythal within it taken from her corpse that had been corrupted by the other gods. As Midnight Tea says, perhaps that ancient wisp was all that was able to escape their corruption and returned to the Fade as the only safe refuge for it, or possible the refuge for spirits created by Solas. However, I don't think those original mosaics depicted the gods after they became corrupted because the sequence always features Fen'Harel too and shows Ghilan'nain with a halla and Falon'din with his staff, which fits more with how they are represented by the Dalish. That seems to indicate they more likely are how the lesser elves still saw them and since they could change shape, perhaps they were unaware of their corruption even after it took place. Also, we know the tale of how Mythal fought with a plague infected Andruil and stole her memories. Perhaps she absorbed a bit more than memories from her and the whole thing was a set up by the other gods to corrupt Mythal. That would fit with some of the Dalish legend of Falon'Din carrying a wounded deer into the Fade (Void perhaps?) because he could walk where the people could not, perhaps having done this at the urging of Ghilan'nain, who does seem to have always been a trouble maker, and with the secret approval of Elgar'nan (because no one would dare to act without his approval). Then the other type of mosaic we could find in game had one, the Arch-demon that could be depicting this conspiracy because Gatzi hinted that it was older than you might think and had been altered by a later sculptor: Now, the first thing those spits don't understand is that carving isn't just what you see. They've never made a physical thing and don't know the how of it. Depth is all tricks of shadow and such; the actual cuts are only as deep as the sculptor wants. And if you take a flat edge to this thing, what she wanted is strange. Because what I'm thinking is that this is one Archdemon and the three heads are the reaction to the three lines. Because piercing-line-one is on the same tier as the Tevinter second from left, and the middle head turned away. Piercing-line-two is the same tier as Tevinter fifth from left, and the first head turned away. And the line that misses it, that's the same tier as the big Tevinter, farthest out. And the dragon is looking straight at him. So the ones who did damage, the dragon doesn't care. The one who faked it, the dragon gives him an eyeful.When he speaks of Tevinter, he means Magisters because there were 7 figures in the picture so he assumed 7 Magisters and an Arch-demon but it could equally be, 7 Evanuris killing Mythal.
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Post by azarhal on Sept 10, 2024 14:24:06 GMT
I imagine the red lyrium idol got corrupted and was made of normal lyrium, it's possible the current dagger is the same one? It should be, otherwise we have two lyrium daggers in-game. There is a tarot card (in Rook's Deck) for the corrupted dagger (and I think there was an icon found on Steam assets ages ago too, but I'm not 100% sure). Since seeing the tarot cards, I actually suspect BioWare purposely had Solas use the wrong version in the June gameplay demo to throw us off and the dagger actually gets purified later in-game (there was other errors in that scene, like the duplicate statues, and other assets and icons have already been changed in more recent trailer). Other choice, the lyrium dagger gets corrupted again over the course of the game...
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Post by gervaise21 on Sept 10, 2024 17:00:18 GMT
Other choice, the lyrium dagger gets corrupted again over the course of the game... There is that scene late on in the release date trailer where Rook seems to have plunged the dagger into Ghilan'nain. It is possible it becomes corrupted as a result even if she is dead. May be she is even in the dagger as a result. However, I assume any action we take would be with the recommendation of Solas and if the dagger were corrupted we simply take it back to him to get it cleansed by the Caretaker. Or we just draw a new one from he idol and cleanse that one instead. After all, not only does the idol seem to reform after being melted down (or whatever Meredith did to it) but the dagger seems to reform in the idol as well.
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Post by midnight tea on Sept 10, 2024 19:11:12 GMT
I imagine the red lyrium idol got corrupted and was made of normal lyrium, it's possible the current dagger is the same one? It should be, otherwise we have two lyrium daggers in-game. There is a tarot card (in Rook's Deck) for the corrupted dagger (and I think there was an icon found on Steam assets ages ago too, but I'm not 100% sure). Since seeing the tarot cards, I actually suspect BioWare purposely had Solas use the wrong version in the June gameplay demo to throw us off and the dagger actually gets purified later in-game (there was other errors in that scene, like the duplicate statues, and other assets and icons have already been changed in more recent trailer). Other choice, the lyrium dagger gets corrupted again over the course of the game... Ahem... I'd like to bring up what Corinne said in first Q&A when someone asked whether party members will be leaving if they don't like Rook: "[...] Uh, as it relates to them showing up to defend Thedas - well yeah they will, UNLESS..."
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Post by gervaise21 on Sept 11, 2024 9:05:54 GMT
Ahem... I'd like to bring up what Corinne said in first Q&A when someone asked whether party members will be leaving if they don't like Rook: "[...] Uh, as it relates to them showing up to defend Thedas - well yeah they will, UNLESS..." I imagine she is referring to the fact that it is possible to make a decision that broke her heart at some stage which had an impact on one or more of the companions. That sounded ominous. It wouldn't be a Bioware game without a heart wrenching decision at some point and I don't mean concerning Solas. That is a whole different ball park.
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Post by gervaise21 on Sept 13, 2024 9:11:13 GMT
Still trying to decide how much more I want to spoil myself with the IGN trailer than I have been already by clicking on Spoilers. However, I am going to concentrate on the latest podcast and what it says about Davrin. Now they said it wasn't necessary to listen to the podcast to understand the game and it was just introducing the companions, which hardly seemed necessary based on everything else that has been revealed. So, I don't know how important his dialogue is and it may be just a case of changing aspects of the lore like they did in DAI and then putting it down to changes between clans due to "growing apart". However, if that is not the case then I find some aspects suspicious based off the fact that all Dalish clans trace to one common origin. When Nadia says she is hunting the Dread Wolf, Davrin suddenly takes more interest and says the following:
DAVRIN: There's a legend among my kind, the story of Fen'Harel. He who hunts alone and the Lord of Tricksters. He's an Elven god that betrayed the ancients. He's a harbinger of chaos and rebellion. If this one speaks the truth, then something much bigger is going on and the Wardens need to get to the bottom of it.
Okay, so those highlighted passages strike me as odd. How does he know this? Presumably word has reached him of what the Inquisitor discovered but are we to assume that no matter what race they were, the information was conveyed to the Dalish? If so, Davrin could not have been a Warden very long because he should have broken all ties with his clan when he did.
However, he speaks as though all those aspects are part of the legend of his people. Well, that's not true if he is a Dalish because none of the lore we previously had from the Dalish mentioned that Fen'Harel hunted alone or that he was associated with chaos and rebellion. (Only that codex by human scholars suggested a different translation of "Harel" to mean rebel and then even that was contradicted by both Solas and Mythal who say it meant "Dread"). Now World of Thedas 2 in the preface to the Canticle of Shartan mentions an elven folktale of a "trickster warrior who fought against tyrants". That had to be referring to Solas' rebellion in the past but if it was common among the Dalish, or city elves, then clearly the connection with Fen'Harel had been lost in the telling. Either that or it came from a group of elves separate from Dalish traditions. That is entirely possible. There were elves even in the time of the Dales who worshiped the Forgotten Ones and were driven out (possibly becoming the group in the Tirashan, although they could be much older in origin) and of course there were the Mythal worshipers down in the Arbor Wilds who kept themselves segregated down the years. Solas also said to Abelas that his People still lingered out in the world and he could join them and Felassan implied there was a clan he belonged to but that Mhiris wouldn't find it to her liking when she was asking if she could join them. Strange elves that didn't sound like Dalish when they spoke were mentioned by the Carta dwarf in Tevinter Nights. So there are pockets of elves that didn't originate in the Dales and likely would have different traditions concerning Fen'Harel. So, does that make Davrin one of them? Just because an elf has vallaslin does not necessarily mean they belong to the ethnic group of the Dalish.
Then later when they discover some mosaics with wolves on them and an eluvian he says the following:
DAVRIN: Ah, see those small wolf totems? Those are just like the ones the Dalish place in their camps in Arlathan. They're for the Dread Wolf.
Notice how he does't say "My clan used to place them in their camp...." but the Dalish in Arlathan as though he isn't one. Plus it is not just the Dalish in Arlathan that place them in their camps but all Dalish. Also, how does he know what the Dalish in Arlathan do because, again, I thought the Dalish had only just returned there? Is this an oversight on the part of the writers or is this deliberate?
Finally, he seems devoted to Andruil (hardly surprising as a hunter) but he gives them the blessing of the goddess to their journey: "May Andruil guide you on your path". However, the Dalish goddess of navigation and journeys is Ghilan'nain. Now there is another "Dalish", allegedly formerly a city elf from Starkhaven, who is devoted to the goddess Andruil and that is Strife. He is based over in Arlathan. Coincidence? Of course, we have even more suspicion towards Strife because of the story Ruins of Reality showing him with triangles with wavy lines on his clothing and the association of that symbol with the Executors. Bellara, also of the Veil Jumpers, seems to have a fixation with triangles. The Executors also have an interest in the Wolf and wanting to prevent his schemes. They were originally attracted back to Thedas by the Breach, which troubled them. Perhaps they genuinely do not want the Veil removed. Hence them working against Solas and trying to repair the damage in the Arlathan Forest. They had agents throughout Thedas so could Davrin be another of them working undercover with the Wardens? It would certainly explain him being so urgent about reporting back to HQ with news of the Wolf in their area. Perhaps it wasn't to inform the First Warden but to get a communication off elsewhere. Besides, what business is it of the Wardens that Fen'Harel is active in their area? Their focus is meant to be the Blight and Darkspawn. Is Davrin aware that the ancient elves had a connection with the Blight entering the world? Is he afraid of what dropping the Veil might release?
So, either Davrin is suspicious and not a genuine Dalish or the writers have once again been messing with the lore concerning what the Dalish believe and passed this on to the writers of the podcast. I thought that Bioware originally said the podcast would reveal more about the companion's background story. Well, we already knew Davrin was a Warden and they've revealed elsewhere his alleged motivations for joining them, so is the above what they were referring to?
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Post by colfoley on Sept 13, 2024 11:14:53 GMT
Still trying to decide how much more I want to spoil myself with the IGN trailer than I have been already by clicking on Spoilers. However, I am going to concentrate on the latest podcast and what it says about Davrin. Now they said it wasn't necessary to listen to the podcast to understand the game and it was just introducing the companions, which hardly seemed necessary based on everything else that has been revealed. So, I don't know how important his dialogue is and it may be just a case of changing aspects of the lore like they did in DAI and then putting it down to changes between clans due to "growing apart". However, if that is not the case then I find some aspects suspicious based off the fact that all Dalish clans trace to one common origin. When Nadia says she is hunting the Dread Wolf, Davrin suddenly takes more interest and says the following:
DAVRIN: There's a legend among my kind, the story of Fen'Harel. He who hunts alone and the Lord of Tricksters. He's an Elven god that betrayed the ancients. He's a harbinger of chaos and rebellion. If this one speaks the truth, then something much bigger is going on and the Wardens need to get to the bottom of it.
Okay, so those highlighted passages strike me as odd. How does he know this? Presumably word has reached him of what the Inquisitor discovered but are we to assume that no matter what race they were, the information was conveyed to the Dalish? If so, Davrin could not have been a Warden very long because he should have broken all ties with his clan when he did.
However, he speaks as though all those aspects are part of the legend of his people. Well, that's not true if he is a Dalish because none of the lore we previously had from the Dalish mentioned that Fen'Harel hunted alone or that he was associated with chaos and rebellion. (Only that codex by human scholars suggested a different translation of "Harel" to mean rebel and then even that was contradicted by both Solas and Mythal who say it meant "Dread"). Now World of Thedas 2 in the preface to the Canticle of Shartan mentions an elven folktale of a "trickster warrior who fought against tyrants". That had to be referring to Solas' rebellion in the past but if it was common among the Dalish, or city elves, then clearly the connection with Fen'Harel had been lost in the telling. Either that or it came from a group of elves separate from Dalish traditions. That is entirely possible. There were elves even in the time of the Dales who worshiped the Forgotten Ones and were driven out (possibly becoming the group in the Tirashan, although they could be much older in origin) and of course there were the Mythal worshipers down in the Arbor Wilds who kept themselves segregated down the years. Solas also said to Abelas that his People still lingered out in the world and he could join them and Felassan implied there was a clan he belonged to but that Mhiris wouldn't find it to her liking when she was asking if she could join them. Strange elves that didn't sound like Dalish when they spoke were mentioned by the Carta dwarf in Tevinter Nights. So there are pockets of elves that didn't originate in the Dales and likely would have different traditions concerning Fen'Harel. So, does that make Davrin one of them? Just because an elf has vallaslin does not necessarily mean they belong to the ethnic group of the Dalish.
Then later when they discover some mosaics with wolves on them and an eluvian he says the following:
DAVRIN: Ah, see those small wolf totems? Those are just like the ones the Dalish place in their camps in Arlathan. They're for the Dread Wolf.
Notice how he does't say "My clan used to place them in their camp...." but the Dalish in Arlathan as though he isn't one. Plus it is not just the Dalish in Arlathan that place them in their camps but all Dalish. Also, how does he know what the Dalish in Arlathan do because, again, I thought the Dalish had only just returned there? Is this an oversight on the part of the writers or is this deliberate?
Finally, he seems devoted to Andruil (hardly surprising as a hunter) but he gives them the blessing of the goddess to their journey: "May Andruil guide you on your path". However, the Dalish goddess of navigation and journeys is Ghilan'nain. Now there is another "Dalish", allegedly formerly a city elf from Starkhaven, who is devoted to the goddess Andruil and that is Strife. He is based over in Arlathan. Coincidence? Of course, we have even more suspicion towards Strife because of the story Ruins of Reality showing him with triangles with wavy lines on his clothing and the association of that symbol with the Executors. Bellara, also of the Veil Jumpers, seems to have a fixation with triangles. The Executors also have an interest in the Wolf and wanting to prevent his schemes. They were originally attracted back to Thedas by the Breach, which troubled them. Perhaps they genuinely do not want the Veil removed. Hence them working against Solas and trying to repair the damage in the Arlathan Forest. They had agents throughout Thedas so could Davrin be another of them working undercover with the Wardens? It would certainly explain him being so urgent about reporting back to HQ with news of the Wolf in their area. Perhaps it wasn't to inform the First Warden but to get a communication off elsewhere. Besides, what business is it of the Wardens that Fen'Harel is active in their area? Their focus is meant to be the Blight and Darkspawn. Is Davrin aware that the ancient elves had a connection with the Blight entering the world? Is he afraid of what dropping the Veil might release?
So, either Davrin is suspicious and not a genuine Dalish or the writers have once again been messing with the lore concerning what the Dalish believe and passed this on to the writers of the podcast. I thought that Bioware originally said the podcast would reveal more about the companion's background story. Well, we already knew Davrin was a Warden and they've revealed elsewhere his alleged motivations for joining them, so is the above what they were referring to?
OK so this is a weird post with a lot to unpack as well as...I am not sure I agree with your support but your conclusion does have some merit to it as well. First though...I think you do continue to underestimate just how much individual variance can exist in each clan and down to the individual person. Yes being the god of chaos and rebellion has never been mentioned in the lore that we have heard about however, based on the lore that we do know, I don't exactly think that its an unfair characterization of Fen'Harel from a biased Dalish perspective. Davrin wouldn't exactly be to thrilled that he was out running around again and if he were opposed to the Dread Wolf, because of his Dalish upbringing, he wouldn't be that prepared to paint him in a good light...even if he had to add some color to the story. Though now that you got me thinking about the process I do find it a bit odd that he took it on face value that Solas was running around free essentially. Though maybe I shouldn't be that surprised given the Dalish maintained he wasn't trapped with the rest of them. As for the Andruil connections though it does get a little more interesting here. Afterall you are right here and I knew that Andruil's reference piqued my curiosity...though I did not know why. And since Andruil is the patron Goddess of Arlathan and it being 'her forest' that does at least suggest some kind of connection between Davrin, Strife, the Veil Jumpers, and everything else. So once again the Elves are acting dodgy. I wouldn't be prepared to acuse him of being a fake but with all this in mind you are right it is also interesting he did want to go back to Weishaupt so easily.
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Post by gervaise21 on Sept 13, 2024 11:49:24 GMT
First though...I think you do continue to underestimate just how much individual variance can exist in each clan and down to the individual person. Yes being the god of chaos and rebellion has never been mentioned in the lore that we have heard about however, based on the lore that we do know, I've explained the reason why I find it a problem that out of nowhere a genuine Dalish clan has someone from it suddenly knowing about Fen'Harel as a rebel. In the first two games, whilst the details varied concerning how he tricked the gods into his trap, the basic ones were there that both sides saw him as an ally/friend and so trusted him. Then he tricked them, locking them away so he could reign supreme. That is so contrary to the idea of him rebelling against tyrants I do not see how this could possibly be an alternative version bearing in mind we not only hear the story from Merrill as a member of the Sabrae clan of Ferelden but Gisharel from the Rilaferin clan of Orlais. It does seem likely therefore that this was a consistent story among the priesthood of the Dales before the fall, when they were the Keepers of the lore. Then when they fled with the families of the Emerald Knights, they became the leaders of the clans. So, they are the only ones you can really call "Dalish".
However, that doesn't preclude other groups within the Dales who separated from them either before or after the fall and isolated groups of ancient elves on the fringes of the regions once dedicated to their particular god. Any of these groups might remember a different version of the story where Fen'Harel wasn't just a trickster god but a rebel against their rule. That is what I am getting at. There are a group called the Dalish who wished to preserve their ancient customs and traditions, including their stories of the past but their memory is distorted by time and likely the prejudices of those who originally passed them on. Nevertheless, there is unlikely to be great deviation between them because their whole reason for existence is to pass on that knowledge uncorrupted. They even get together regularly to ensure that is the case and adjust that knowledge if one or more of them has come up with something new.
Remember even Morrigan had not heard anything different about Fen'Harel. Bearing in mind whose daughter she was, surely she might have got the full version.
Davrin's reaction and account of Fen'Harel sounds more like a Dalish who had heard some of the rumours coming out of the Inquisition. So, why have him say it is a "legend among my kind"? Clearly it is now more than a legend if he is concerned at hearing the Dread Wolf is active in the world (surely he would dismiss it as some mad elf claiming to be the Dread Wolf?) So, he has to know more than he does. Also, why didn't he say it is a legend among the Dalish? Or even a legend among my People, the Elvhen? Instead he says "my kind". That just strikes me as a very odd thing for a Dalish to say.
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Post by midnight tea on Sept 13, 2024 13:49:13 GMT
The Dalish are a very scattered, diverse group with different ways of living or philosophies. Even John Epler spoke about it recently - and it makes *complete sense* for small groups scattered across a big continent to differ from one another, despite common roots, or some of those clans meeting from time to time.
There really is no reason to think that at least some Dalish clans couldn't have known Fen'Harel as a rebel, especially that rebellion doesn't have to exist only within a positive context - there is such a thing as being a rebel against an established world order, thus being effectively an agent of chaos who is rebellious the same way a child is rebellious... this fits within the broader characterization of Fen'Harel within the Dalish, even if some Dalish don't call him that way. I don't really see a controversy here.
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Post by gervaise21 on Sept 13, 2024 14:25:28 GMT
I don't really see a controversy here. Not controversy but how it impacts on the depiction of others. Also, I thought the whole point of that revelation from the Temple of Mythal and then in Trespasser was that it wasn't known to the modern elves, whether Dalish or not. It was a hidden history we only discovered by visiting Mythal's temple, where it was merely hinted at, and then revealed to us as we ran through the areas in Trespasser, which again had been hidden since ancient times through the network being shut down and only accessible to a few individuals if at all. We didn't stumble on them by accident because he deliberately invited us in, likely knowing that in addition to dealing with the Qunari we would find out the truth about him. So, not only had there previously been no evidence that any of the Dalish were familiar with that version (apart from perhaps the worshipers of the Forgotten Ones) but there seemed no way they could have discovered it either. There was a whole gap in Dalish history that was filled in initially by Abelas. The Dalish version had some vague memory of feeling the Quickening, linking it to contact with humans, going into Uthenera, then being awoken by the Imperium intruding on the forest and war ensued during which the bit of Arlathan they lived in was destroyed, which they thought was the true Arlathan. Abelas told us that was incorrect and the empire had already fallen to civil war before that. The humans had nothing to do with it. Tevinter merely preyed on the bones of a corpse. So, none of the modern elves that generally came into contact with human civilisation after that knew the truth. That meant the clans we know as the Dalish and the city elves that were the descendants either of the elves captured from the Dales or slaves in Tevinter. However, that is not to say there are not other groups in the world that knew the truth but they are not Dalish. They are a distinct ethnic group. It does not simply apply as a label to apply to any group of elves outside of human civilisation. The humans in world may not recognise the difference, likely thinking all elves with vallaslin must come from the same background, but of course it is not true. Just as we found with Abelas, the elves themselves know the difference. To him the Dalish were "shadows wearing vallaslin" not Elvhen. That's what I am getting at when it comes to how Davrin described himself and the Dalish. He spoke of "his kind" when describing what they knew of Fen'Harel, including that they associated him with chaos and rebellion. Then later he spoke of Dalish clans in Arlathan with totems of wolves. Why not, my clan had totems of wolves, or my kind have totems of wolves? There was a definite distinction he appeared to draw between the two. However, as you say, it is likely the writers using the growing apart through being scattered across the Continent excuse for why he seems familiar with a different story to the Dalish we have known. Thus there is nothing suspicious about it. Still, it will be interesting to see how he and Bellara react to one another. I seem to recall that one of the Devs suggested some sort of tension between them. I thought it might be because he abandoned his clan and Bellara thought he should have stayed and protected them (which is likely triggered by some personal tragedy that occurred in her past) but perhaps it might also have something to do with Bellara picking up on this distinction between what he claims to be and what she knows of the matter.
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Post by catcher on Sept 13, 2024 21:17:31 GMT
If memory serves some elves went to the Thaig to hide from something. Some dwarves got sealed in there as well, left to eat their "gods" I believe the lyrium from Titans. I imagine the red lyrium idol got corrupted and was made of normal lyrium, it's possible the current dagger is the same one? Keeping in the mind the old God underground might have been part of a ritual to lock up the Evanuris in the Golden City. I imagine Solas was trying to trap the Gods and contain the Blight at the same time. It possible he went to a couple of Thaig or just this one, did whatever, some lyrium got blighted and he sealed the place. Collapsing Thaigs after magic went wrong seems to have been an elven pastime. The Red Lyrium idol might be showing an emaciated Mythal with unknown followers grabbing onto her while they are getting swallowed by a maw of unknow origin. Perhaps it's a replica of her murder. Solas partly did what he did to avenge her. Hate to be that guy, but I think you are mixing up two different 'sealed' thaigs. The ones where we have definite elven presence are the Cadish Thaig in DA:O (The Stone Prisoner) but that's much later historically speaking than any events with Solas. The other is the unnamed thaig in Trespasser but I don't remember there being any 'sealing' or even thaig history there. Lots of elvish statues, of course and the veilfire puzzle mural but not anything about eating their gods. The 'Primeval' thaig where the red lyrium idol/dagger was found was said to be so old that it didn't even look dwarvish to Bartrand. I don't remember any elvish statues or comments from Varric or lore that implied it was elvish. I do remember that, as part of the lore of the staff Valdasine, there is a story of a Valdasine Thaig that is so rich in lyrium that it supplies the whole drawven empire with lyrium Before the coming of the darkspawn (nothing is said of how far before that event). The lore further states that the thaig was sealed internally for a time and that even a paragon was turned away. When the thaig reopened, there was no one and no sign left except for a staff of unusual metal. Was it supposed to be red lyrium and the developers just didn't want to saddle us with the complications (just good ole Bartrand)? Was it the metal or its form that so frightened a dwarven king before the darkspawn invasion? Remember, even if all the dwarves had disappeared, the lyrium was still there (though more and more was red as you went into the thaig centuries later). Why did the dwarves seal up a valuable settlement? And what was so frightening that no dwarf ever went back again? It's always possible that the 'Primeval' thaig and Valdasine are not the same but that would seem silly with the lore attached to the staff and where it is found near the end exit. This is one of my favorite (and damning) mysteries from DA2. Oh, and 'Claws of Dumat' idols everywhere in the 'Primeval' thaig just to make it more maddening. Thanks for your time.
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Post by Reznore on Sept 13, 2024 21:23:19 GMT
There was an old post on the lost BSN, about the Primeval Thaig. You could find special loot that sounded elven, and it was unique to that location. A fan made some theory about elven presence, and David Gaider replied yep it was on purpose.
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