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Post by Absafraginlootly on Jul 13, 2019 2:57:25 GMT
Well, we do know from an interview that David Gaider has pretty much literally called DA4 the 2nd part of Inquisition... although, of course, cutting the original storyline in half doesn't mean that the original draft is going to be followed to a T or something. Which is why it remains curious what role Inquisitor will really play in what was originally envisioned for them. I am curious as well, although it is possible that the original second half will have been altered from how it was originally envisioned by the old team. A lot does depend on whether they continue with the Inquisitor PC as protagonist or reduce them to a subordinate role. If they go with a dual-protagonist then we could have both the original plotline for the 2nd half alongside the new plotline for the new PC protagonist. Also if the original plan was to make Hawke the Inquisitor for all three games, This is a misunderstanding of words by Cassandra. Originally the idea was to have a DLC the Exalted March, which would have had Hawke involved in resolving the mage rebellion. DG has stated publically that he was very upset when this was cancelled and it did require a lot of adjustments to the plotline going forward. Without knowing how the DLC would have ended it is not possible to say if Hawke would even have been alive to carry forward into the next game. However, I believe there was also a rumour that the Temple of Mythal was originally going to feature in the DLC as well. At the outset of DAO it was stated that there would be a new PC each game, unlike Mass Effect which preceded it. It seems odd that they would have backtracked on this so soon after this. The plan did seem to be that the story of Hawke should have been resolved in the Exalted March. The reason for the controversy over the Inquisitor now is that it does look like they may have changed their mind on this but this is understandable considering the story was cut in half. Not just a rumor David Gaider told us on his blog. Anonymous asked:Could I ask about what was switched over from the Dragon Age 2 canceled expansion and put into Inquisition? What was shuffled over? How difficult was this process? dgaider-deactivated20150130:It was indeed a difficult progress to let go of the DA2 expansion’s story. I mean, we never got very far past the planning stage, so I’m well aware that by the time it got to release it would undoubtedly have changed significantly — perhaps even to my great disappointment. Even so, it’s still hard to avoid thinking of what-might-have-been. So you’ll have to forgive me if I say I never intend to go into detail on it. For my sake as well as the sake of fans, many of whom lack my perspective on such projects — if it’s hard for me, what might it be like for them? Though they should be happy, to be perfectly frank. The ending we had planned for the expansion was brutal, insofar as some of their favorite characters are concerned…which would have been delightful for us writers, but maybe not so much for them. Maybe it’s better this way. Or not. Whatever the case, I’ll just say that some basic plots were carried over, and naturally changed as the context for them changed. The Temple of Mythal is a good example. Beyond that, I’ll leave it to your imagination. link Mike Laidlaw gave some other details on his twitter: Mike Laidlaw Verified account @mike_Laidlaw Okay, folks have some questions about the Exalted March cancelled expansion for DAII. So… 6:19 PM - 11 Jan 2017 @mike_Laidlaw 11 Jan 2017 More Replying to @mike_Laidlaw First off? Why did we cancel it? Easy to assume it was “the reaction” to DAII, but not so! It was the move to Frostbite. @mike_Laidlaw 11 Jan 2017 More We had an opportunity to do so at the same time, but knew as it would be the first time that engine did “RPG stuff” we knew it would be hard @mike_Laidlaw 11 Jan 2017 More As most everything in making games, it certainly was challenging. Great engine, but took tons of time. Had we tried to do both EM …. @mike_Laidlaw 11 Jan 2017 More … and the Frostbite transition, both would have suffered a lot, esp. from lack of engineering folks. @mike_Laidlaw 11 Jan 2017 More So @biomarkdarrah made the call to stop development on EM and go all in on what would become DAI. @mike_Laidlaw 11 Jan 2017 More I’m trying to remember which of the two was jokingly code named “Project Nugstorm.” @mike_Laidlaw 11 Jan 2017 More Mark has a rule that codenames should be ridiculous enough that you don’t get attached to them and call the final product that codename. @mike_Laidlaw 11 Jan 2017 More In this goal, we were VERY successful. Various orgs around EA wrote concerned letters asking what the hell it was  @mike_Laidlaw 11 Jan 2017 More So anyway! Exalted March didn’t make it too far past concept. The idea, however, was that it followed the red lyrium chicanery of DAII with
@mike_Laidlaw 11 Jan 2017 More The Chantry becoming VERY UPSET while various aspects of the qunari started to make moves on the turbulent Free Marches.
@mike_Laidlaw 11 Jan 2017 More And this it fell to Hawke to stop things from going to hell (again) while working with Starkhaven and the pirates of the Armada.
@mike_Laidlaw 11 Jan 2017 More I recall fondly that for the big first panel we did at PAX west (prime back then) we all had shirts with missing letters. @mike_Laidlaw 11 Jan 2017 More You know… like hang man. Because the story would start at…yeah, the Hanged Man.
@mike_Laidlaw 11 Jan 2017 More I still have mine. The missing letters spell out Estwatch, which is where the Felicisima Armada missions were based.@mike_Laidlaw 11 Jan 2017 More The Internet, as it does, had guessed all of the locations within minutes of the panel starting. You guys rule  @mike_Laidlaw 11 Jan 2017 More Beyond that, there were some really interesting stories to tell, and a chance to learn more about Sebastian’s family.
@mike_Laidlaw 11 Jan 2017 More But as it stood, I think shutting it down was the right call to focus on the engine change. So in summary we know: There was going to be an expansion for DA2 called the Exalted March that never made it past the concept stage, in concept it was to include: - Red lyrium/stuff following red lyrium chicanary (I'm not sure about that sentence)
- An angry Chantry (presumebly either declaring an Exalted march or narrowly avoiding them declaring one given the title)
- The Qunari making moves on the Free Marches
- Requiring Hawke to work with Starkhaven (with a chance to learn about Sebastion's family)
- and the Felisima Armarda (in Estwatch)
- A brutal ending for favourate characters
Though it only being in concept stage means any of this could have been changed, cut, or replaced. So things that were in DAI + dlcs that are reimagined Exalted March concept content: - The Temple of Mythal - probably also the Flemeth = Mythal revelation.
- Qunari attacking the south
- Red Lyrium revelations - probably would've been used in DA3, but I'm guessing varric/biancas research showing its alive and blighted would have been in EM, possibly related to brutal end for fan favourate...
- start of Mage rebellion and chantry/templar march
Things that were originally in DA3: - Solas
- The Orlais Civil War
- Corypheus - not as the villian of the whole game but as a secondary villain to fen'harel,
- probably some of the mage/templar conflict but in a diminished capacity - given that qunari seem like the main thing hawke would be dealing with in EM
+ whatever the second half of DA3 was to be, Fen'harel, ancient elf stuff, possibly more stuff on the Titans then the taste we got in descent? We just don't know Given that Hawke was rescued by, and then rescued, Flemythal, was present for the first of the qunari attacks on the south, and for events that instigated mage/templar conflict, and was the first to discover red lyrium - it makes a certain amount of narrative sense that they be the one to find the temple of mythal and her identity, help fight back a larger qunari incursion on the south, witness the begining of hostilities between mages/templars, and find out red lyrium is blighted. (Though again I emphasize that what would have made it into Hawke expansion might've been completely different then the concept, let alone my interpretaion of the concept) Who knows whether Exalted march would of felt like an ending for Hawke, would've felt like a lead into DA3, would've ended with Hawke dead, a puppet of mythal or any number of other possibilites. (With multiple endings potentially any/all of the above). Personally with the above information combined with the devs stated changing protagonist rule I incline toward thinking that: the Inquisitor did things Hawke was meant to do but Hawke was not meant to be the DA3 protagonist. But we'll never really know for sure. Of course DA4 may end up being an exception to that rule given that it will undoubtably include parts of the 'second half' of DAI whether in diminished, expanded or recontextualised form. Only the devs can determine whether the combination of old DAI ideas in a new context and ideas that were always going to be introduced in a later game (with probably a diff PC) would be better served by a new or old protagonist.
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Post by gervaise21 on Jul 13, 2019 8:31:16 GMT
Thanks for including all that stuff from Mike Laidlaw. It sounds like it would have been a proper Expansion like DAA, not simply a DLC like the others. I know it was only in concept stage and it is possible that what sounded good on paper might have proven too difficult to translate to the screen in any event but I do find it annoying that it seems really interesting concepts have been dropped twice now, first the Exalted March with DA2, to develop the use of Frostbite with DAI, and now Dylan (or was it Joplin?) with DA4, because of Anthem,.
Anyway, a related crazy theory of mine concerning the reason Flemeth rescued Hawke. Now Flemeth says that she likes to nudge things along the path she wants them to take. So Hawke could have simply been a random person in distress who seemed like a good target for shipping her amulet to the Freemarches, although I must admit surely it would have been simpler just to give it to Marethari if that was the case. We know from WoT2 that she was definitely calling in favour that Marethari owed her and that is presumably why the clan left for the Freemarches like they did.
However, there was another important factor about Hawke and that was their relationship to Malcolm which meant that their family needed to be in the Freemarches in order to be on hand to release Corypheus. Only Hawke blood would do for that, which made it vitally important that at least one member of the family made it to the Freemarches alive. Could Flemeth have known about that? Which is why she wasn't just casually flying around and happened to spot something interesting happening on the ground but was actually tracking their progress and stepped in when things took a turn for the worst, thus giving her an excuse to ask for a favour that would ensure Hawke was required to be in the vicinity of Sundermount in the Vimmark Mountains.
There are a few things that seem to point to this. The Warden may not have killed her for Morrigan in which case the amulet insurance was unnecessary. Flemeth says she wanted to be smuggled out of Ferelden and it seems unlikely that it was because of fear of Morrigan, so it seems she wanted to keep her whereabouts secret. Otherwise why not simply fly out of Ferelden? After meeting with Hawke a 2nd time she mentioned about needing to leave to ensure she was on time for another meeting somewhere. Who was that with? When she admonishes Solas, instead of saying "you shouldn't have given away your orb", she says "you should not have given your orb to Corypheus". I just get the feeling that may be Corypheus was part of her plan but not in the manner that Solas made him.
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Post by gervaise21 on Jul 13, 2019 10:56:15 GMT
I've also just realised that the dialogue for Flemeth in DA2 would have been written when the Exalted March was likely still a possibility, so her "meeting" could have been scheduled to take place at her own temple and that is when she would have done her reveal about being Mythal, rather than at the shrine in the Arbor Wilds in DAI (if OGB not in the game). It always struck me as slightly odd that we had just discovered her Temple and yet to call on Mythal we had to go to a completely separate shrine in the same general area where ancient elves were meant to have gone to call on her services. Why wouldn't they have gone to her actual temple?
Another interesting factoid. There is a picture at the front of WoT2 that seems to show a giant statue of Mythal in the middle of a gigantic waterfall with steps leading up in front of it and what looks like an orb floating over a pedestal at the top. Some time back I queried what this could be and someone told me it was the original concept art for the Temple of Mythal and the Well of Sorrows. If that is true (I don't know where they got their information from - may be the Art of Dragon Age?) but it likely this had something to do with how it was going to be portrayed in the Exalted March. We know from DAI that the orb of Fen'Harel was not simply an foci of power but a repository of knowledge, so that would fit with the key to accessing the knowledge of the Well of Sorrows originally being an orb.
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Post by midnight tea on Jul 13, 2019 16:34:08 GMT
Thanks for including all that stuff from Mike Laidlaw. It sounds like it would have been a proper Expansion like DAA, not simply a DLC like the others. I know it was only in concept stage and it is possible that what sounded good on paper might have proven too difficult to translate to the screen in any event but I do find it annoying that it seems really interesting concepts have been dropped twice now, first the Exalted March with DA2, to develop the use of Frostbite with DAI, and now Dylan (or was it Joplin?) with DA4, because of Anthem,. It's wise to heed Gaider's advice to not think too much about what-might-have-beens (he even says that the expansions itself might've looked very different in the end - Schreier said the same thing about Joplin in his article, though I'd like to stress that we don't know how much of Joplin is stil part of the current project). It is generally a good advice across storytelling medium and in fact any creative endeavor to just.... not get too annoyed about these things. Sketches, drafts and concepts can hold certain appeal because of all the potential they hold or all the ways different people can imagine the final picture before it's finished. I'm certain everyone who expresses themselves creatively had this happen to them occasionally. It sure as heck happened to me, which is why I've grown reluctant to share my drafts or initial ideas. Art is rarely a straightforward linear process. It's very common for initial concepts to evolve to something very different in the end, even if everything goes our way. So really - don't get too bummed out about it. Would things look/end up in a better place if this or that happened? ...Who knows? Chances are high that they wouldn't tho... or people would be annoyed while imagining how cool it would be if things evolved in about the way we have them now  Grass is greener on the other side and all. I very much doubt that Hawke was just some rando, but at the same time I don't think Flemeth has looked specifically for them. Heck, she loudly muses something close to "Holy cow, how could I be so lucky???" I think Flemeth has simply deemed Hawke to be strong-willed enough to prevail. In fact, she literally tells us so: "Hurtled into the chaos you fight, and the world will shape before you". That suggests that she has ways to evaluate such things. It's probably how she's deemed that HoF has a higher chance of stopping the 5th Blight too. I do have to wonder whether it has anything to do with some sort of special sight that beings like Flemeth posses. We KNOW that some people or entitles can see or sense things other's don't. And we know that some sort of 'will-o-meter' exists because Cole can't shut up about some people being 'bright' - and the more someone/something burns or shines the stronger they are suggested to be. Corypheus also seems to possess such a sight, which is how he seemed to have guessed that Calpernia is powerful (or what her name is) at a simple glance: I think Flemeth has simply deemed that meeting fateful/lucky enough to see an opportunity in it. In fact, I suspect she may have even picked to get smuggled on Sundermount only after this opportunity has presented herself. Flemeth appears to be someone who has some insight into the future, but - from the way she acts - she seems to be a person who either accepts that chance will always be a factor or that she's more an agent - or conduit - of fate rather than one who always controls it ("alas, so long as the music plays, we dance"). So I think she may choose to... go with the flow when things happen and present an opportunity. The way I see it, this is probably the major way she differs from Solas, who is 'not much of a gambler anymore'. He'll adapt and modify plans when necessary and have contingencies where he can, but other than that he's much more of a skeptic in powers of fate OR doesn't believe it'll lead anywhere that is beneficial to world at large, hence he wrestles with it. Ironically, maybe this is why he gave his orb to Cory... only to create another unexpected opportunity there.
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Post by colfoley on Jul 13, 2019 19:06:38 GMT
Thanks for including all that stuff from Mike Laidlaw. It sounds like it would have been a proper Expansion like DAA, not simply a DLC like the others. I know it was only in concept stage and it is possible that what sounded good on paper might have proven too difficult to translate to the screen in any event but I do find it annoying that it seems really interesting concepts have been dropped twice now, first the Exalted March with DA2, to develop the use of Frostbite with DAI, and now Dylan (or was it Joplin?) with DA4, because of Anthem,. Anyway, a related crazy theory of mine concerning the reason Flemeth rescued Hawke. Now Flemeth says that she likes to nudge things along the path she wants them to take. So Hawke could have simply been a random person in distress who seemed like a good target for shipping her amulet to the Freemarches, although I must admit surely it would have been simpler just to give it to Marethari if that was the case. We know from WoT2 that she was definitely calling in favour that Marethari owed her and that is presumably why the clan left for the Freemarches like they did. However, there was another important factor about Hawke and that was their relationship to Malcolm which meant that their family needed to be in the Freemarches in order to be on hand to release Corypheus. Only Hawke blood would do for that, which made it vitally important that at least one member of the family made it to the Freemarches alive. Could Flemeth have known about that? Which is why she wasn't just casually flying around and happened to spot something interesting happening on the ground but was actually tracking their progress and stepped in when things took a turn for the worst, thus giving her an excuse to ask for a favour that would ensure Hawke was required to be in the vicinity of Sundermount in the Vimmark Mountains. There are a few things that seem to point to this. The Warden may not have killed her for Morrigan in which case the amulet insurance was unnecessary. Flemeth says she wanted to be smuggled out of Ferelden and it seems unlikely that it was because of fear of Morrigan, so it seems she wanted to keep her whereabouts secret. Otherwise why not simply fly out of Ferelden? After meeting with Hawke a 2nd time she mentioned about needing to leave to ensure she was on time for another meeting somewhere. Who was that with? When she admonishes Solas, instead of saying "you shouldn't have given away your orb", she says "you should not have given your orb to Corypheus". I just get the feeling that may be Corypheus was part of her plan but not in the manner that Solas made him. I'd point out that there already is precedent for these developers to put cancelled plot points from one project into another... they did it with Mythal...if we take the hints in Laidlaws tweets probably a lot more then just that. Maaaayyyybbbeee they wouldn't have had to divide Inquisition into two parts if they were willing to stick to the plan. Regardless they've shown an amazing adaptability in hindsight of including the necessary information in their games and sticking to the generalities, if not the specifics. Which is why I think DA 4 is going to be out... sooner rather then later. And which is why I think we'll still be doing espionage. I just wonder how much of DGs plan is in now that Weekes is leading the writing team.
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Post by gervaise21 on Jul 13, 2019 20:33:56 GMT
Corypheus also seems to possess such a sight, which is how he seemed to have guessed that Calpernia is powerful I actually wonder about this. Flemeth I can understand because she has the indwelling spirit of Mythal to give her these insights but how would Corypheus have acquired this gift? I mean, people can have a gut instinct of their underlying power when faced by someone but we are really seeing this from her viewpoint and whilst she doesn't know how he could know her name or anything about her, the fact is he has already confronted her Master, Erasthenes and he could at least have told him her name and the fact she was a mage. It is also possible that Erasthenes had an inkling of her ability because whilst he didn't seem that bothered once he had completed her initial training, the fact is he didn't trade her away or donate her to the Circle for experiments as his friend suggested. So I have a feeling that Corypheus was just using the skills he had probably developed of reading people when he was a priest of Dumat and thus knowing how to play them to get them on his side.
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Post by midnight tea on Jul 13, 2019 21:03:19 GMT
I'd point out that there already is precedent for these developers to put cancelled plot points from one project into another... they did it with Mythal...if we take the hints in Laidlaws tweets probably a lot more then just that. Maaaayyyybbbeee they wouldn't have had to divide Inquisition into two parts if they were willing to stick to the plan. Regardless they've shown an amazing adaptability in hindsight of including the necessary information in their games and sticking to the generalities, if not the specifics. Which is why I think DA 4 is going to be out... sooner rather then later. And which is why I think we'll still be doing espionage. I just wonder how much of DGs plan is in now that Weekes is leading the writing team. I'm unsure if many plot points can be called 'cancelled', but rather moved around. I suspect that they have a list of events they want to/have to put in the story in order to push the overarching story in a desired direction - and it's more a question of WHERE to put those plot points (or in what shape) rather than whether they should 'revive' certain plot points (although there are probably implementations of those plot points they think still work - and if they're able to put them back in the story roughly in a shape they've had before they were moved, they're going to do it). In this place it should be mentioned that DAII initially wasn't supposed to be a standalone game - just another expansion for DAO. They basically figured they can't just follow DAO with (roughly) DAI - there was a lot of connective tissue still missing in the story (the Qunari, mage-templar war, red lyrium, Cory, etc). That planned expansion was supposed to take care of that. But after they were given too little time to create the next major DA installment that expansion was basically turned into DAII. Similar thing seems to has happened with the expansion for DAII - some ideas have simply migrated to different places. And even if the context in the story or world changed for them significantly, what's important is that they communicate something significant to the audience on our path to the conclusion.
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Post by midnight tea on Jul 13, 2019 21:26:32 GMT
Corypheus also seems to possess such a sight, which is how he seemed to have guessed that Calpernia is powerful I actually wonder about this. Flemeth I can understand because she has the indwelling spirit of Mythal to give her these insights but how would Corypheus have acquired this gift? I mean, people can have a gut instinct of their underlying power when faced by someone but we are really seeing this from her viewpoint and whilst she doesn't know how he could know her name or anything about her, the fact is he has already confronted her Master, Erasthenes and he could at least have told him her name and the fact she was a mage. It is also possible that Erasthenes had an inkling of her ability because whilst he didn't seem that bothered once he had completed her initial training, the fact is he didn't trade her away or donate her to the Circle for experiments as his friend suggested. So I have a feeling that Corypheus was just using the skills he had probably developed of reading people when he was a priest of Dumat and thus knowing how to play them to get them on his side. The Blight, maybe? We don't really know what it's capable of, though it already can be said that a lot. I'm also unsure whether this is an ability that only beings like Evanuris possess. After all, we do know that Cole can tell how bright people are - as do many other spirits. Also - terribly unlikely Erasthenes said anything about Calpernia to Corypheus. Erasthenes was wholly occupied by Cory at that moment, as was Cory with his meeting and demands from Erasthenes. Neither expected Calpernia to walk in. And no, Erasthenes had no inkling about Calpernia. Nobody knew and nobody cared and that was underlined thoroughly in the text. The fact that he's never sold or gave her away, as he did in case of Marcus, only shows that he was a somewhat better guy than Anodatus. Plus, he probably didn't want to bother with buying another slave to take care of his house, because other than ensuring Cal has rudimentary knowledge of magic for safety's sake, he never did anything with her talents. She was back to scrubbing floors and serving pastries the moment Erasthenes deemed her magical training complete. It's Corypheus that has first stated that she has great potential - as she has proven later by dealing with a supposedly powerful magister (supporting his magic with blood of his slaves) without breaking a sweat.
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Post by colfoley on Jul 14, 2019 0:23:52 GMT
I do wonder if 'splitting DAI into two' contributed to the game's lackluster side quests. After all if they decided to split the plot into two for these reasons they likely still would've needed to come up with some sort of content to fill in the gaps in order to compete with Skyrim.
Though Skyrim also had pretty cookie cutter quests so it could just be the industry standard back then...
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Post by midnight tea on Jul 14, 2019 2:18:52 GMT
I do wonder if 'splitting DAI into two' contributed to the game's lackluster side quests. After all if they decided to split the plot into two for these reasons they likely still would've needed to come up with some sort of content to fill in the gaps in order to compete with Skyrim. Though Skyrim also had pretty cookie cutter quests so it could just be the industry standard back then... I don't think so - the split seems to have happened very early in production. Plus, if DA4 is/is based on "2nd part of Inquisition" then I seriously doubt that this 2nd part would basically be done via side-quests. I think it was mostly their first shot at designing game on Frostbite or designing zones this big. And they've likely cut the story in half simply because either the story was essentially too long, too unwieldy or they knew they wouldn't be able to cram all of it and do it justice, regardless of issues with new engine. Like, if you look at DAI, that story is huuuuuuuuuuuuuge already. There's a ton of content there and a lot of new stuff to learn. Plus, David Gaider has explained in a different interview (I think...) that zone content simply wouldn't be replaced by more, say, story content or cinematics, because that's not how it works in gamedev.
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Post by Absafraginlootly on Jul 16, 2019 3:27:56 GMT
Since Kal-sharok had no surface entrance but has been going there/trading I wonder whether they dug a new tunnel to the surface for that purpose or whether they cleared the deeproads between their thaig and one that does have a surface entrance? How much of the deeproads does kal-sharok control?
And now that Orzammer has reclaimed Kal'hirol and the roads to it can we expect more pushes to reclaim the deep roads? Could this result in them running into the Sha'brytol or other groups of dwarves guarding other titans? Finding more ancient pre-memories thaigs?
Could Kal-sharok have already run into a titan and its protectors and thats related to why they survived after they were abandoned? Are there more dwarves like Valta amoung the citizens of kal-sharok? new class?
I assume we're going to see more about titans in dragon age 4 since they were intorduced in Inquisitions dlc (much as corypheus and the ben-hassrath were introduced in da2's dlc), but given we seem to be going north it could be a completely different titan that we interact with. Would this one be abandoned? Have a different group of dwarves protecting it? Would this group actually be connected to its titan or unconnected but desperately trying to cling on to their traditions like the sha-brytol? Could we actually see a living ancient thaig this time instead of it just being alluded to like the sha-brytol's one in valta's notes?
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Post by colfoley on Jul 16, 2019 3:35:31 GMT
Not sure where they are going with it but maybe its...somewhere. But there is a lot of interesting things happening with the Deep Roads since DAO came out and well in the Dragon Age in general. Kal'shirok just suddenly reappears and is connected back to Orzamaar when they thought they were the only one. The Fifth Blight happens which at least temporarily lets the Deep Roads be cleared which leads to: The Dwarves reclaiming both Kal'hirol and likely Heidrun as well. Red Lyrium is discovered by the Bartrand expedition. We discover evidence of Titans/ Scaled ones and Valta promises there is *more* down there. Just more ancient history to uncover.
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Post by yogsothoth on Jul 16, 2019 5:30:05 GMT
Could Kal-sharok have already run into a titan and its protectors and thats related to why they survived after they were abandoned? Are there more dwarves like Valta amoung the citizens of kal-sharok? new class?There are hints that they used the Blight in some way in order to survive. Titans could still be involved somehow, but there's nothing to really suggest that so far.
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Post by gervaise21 on Jul 16, 2019 8:27:23 GMT
There are hints that they used the Blight in some way in order to survive. I'm not sure about this. There is that cryptic reference by the merchant that says when the dwarf from Kal-Sharok looked him in the eye he was instantly reminded of the Grey Wardens and the darkspawn. This could mean they have directly used the taint or that they have the same single-minded determination to use "whatever means necessary" to survive. They are clearly a very close-knit group that "look after our own", as shown in the War Table mission, and perfectly capable of dealing with the Venatori. Another mission has them willing to work with the Inquisition provided it is done on their terms. The only description of them other than this that I have is from the Core Rule Book in one of the suggested table top campaigns. Now this was issued under the Bioware banner and is based off the lore surrounding DAO plus later additions. When Kal-Sharok dwarves arrive at a surface gathering of the races they are described as "strange - pale, younger than would be expected, seem somewhat diminished, as if worn down by prolonged hardship and horror." The fact that there are no older dwarves among them might point to their older members doing some sort of joining ritual that shortens their lives but has enabled them to fight darkspawn more effectively. However, I am particularly struck by the emphasis on them being pale, so wonder if there is some other reason for this. Could it be related to the dwarves of the sha-brytol in some way, drinking the blood of a titan perhaps? Whatever the case, Kal-Sharok is definitely one of those locations that I hope we do get to see. There seems so many questions that need to be answered: how did they survive; who have they been trading with; and how was their survival kept from the Orzammar dwarves for the entire time since they abandoned them? If they have been trading with the outside world, people talk. Are we really to believe that not one merchant spoke about their encounter, particularly those who were from Tevinter? (Or did Kal-Sharok specifically refuse to have dealings with anyone from Tevinter?) The writer of the codex was said to be a merchant-scholar who also doubted the official date of their "rediscovery" as declared in the Assembly at Orzammar. Of course I wouldn't put it past the deshyrs to have known about the survival but kept it from the general populace for political reasons. Nevertheless, their survival is intriguing, particularly since they are located near a part of the world, the Anderfels, where the darkspawn are "a constant and formidable threat" even between Blights, suggesting they do seem to congregate beneath the surface in that location.
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Post by Absafraginlootly on Jul 17, 2019 6:23:42 GMT
There are hints that they used the Blight in some way in order to survive. I'm not sure about this. There is that cryptic reference by the merchant that says when the dwarf from Kal-Sharok looked him in the eye he was instantly reminded of the Grey Wardens and the darkspawn. This could mean they have directly used the taint or that they have the same single-minded determination to use "whatever means necessary" to survive. They are clearly a very close-knit group that "look after our own", as shown in the War Table mission, and perfectly capable of dealing with the Venatori. Another mission has them willing to work with the Inquisition provided it is done on their terms. The only description of them other than this that I have is from the Core Rule Book in one of the suggested table top campaigns. Now this was issued under the Bioware banner and is based off the lore surrounding DAO plus later additions. When Kal-Sharok dwarves arrive at a surface gathering of the races they are described as "strange - pale, younger than would be expected, seem somewhat diminished, as if worn down by prolonged hardship and horror." The fact that there are no older dwarves among them might point to their older members doing some sort of joining ritual that shortens their lives but has enabled them to fight darkspawn more effectively. However, I am particularly struck by the emphasis on them being pale, so wonder if there is some other reason for this. Could it be related to the dwarves of the sha-brytol in some way, drinking the blood of a titan perhaps? Whatever the case, Kal-Sharok is definitely one of those locations that I hope we do get to see. There seems so many questions that need to be answered: how did they survive; who have they been trading with; and how was their survival kept from the Orzammar dwarves for the entire time since they abandoned them? If they have been trading with the outside world, people talk. Are we really to believe that not one merchant spoke about their encounter, particularly those who were from Tevinter? (Or did Kal-Sharok specifically refuse to have dealings with anyone from Tevinter?) The writer of the codex was said to be a merchant-scholar who also doubted the official date of their "rediscovery" as declared in the Assembly at Orzammar. Of course I wouldn't put it past the deshyrs to have known about the survival but kept it from the general populace for political reasons. Nevertheless, their survival is intriguing, particularly since they are located near a part of the world, the Anderfels, where the darkspawn are "a constant and formidable threat" even between Blights, suggesting they do seem to congregate beneath the surface in that location. To be fair when they traded with others they could have pretended to be or orzammer or surface dwarves, it's not like most would know the difference. With regard to the merchant being reminded of grey wardens... If the taint originates in red lyrium rather then the lyrium just being infected with it then the connection that grey wardens have from the taint might actually be similar to the connection that Valta has with the Titan. Valta's Pureness power given to her by the titan seems unconnected to the fade and the magic that emissaries and archdemons use doesn't draw from the fade either. Both lyrium/titans and the Taint cause people to hear "singing". And genlocks can still become emissaries and use taint magic despite being birthed by a dwarven ghoul / broodmother. The entire blight/darkspawn thing might be sourced and controlled by a Titan, except instead of making those it touches Pure - it Taints them. The Architect severs that connection in some darkspawn with a Grey warden blood fuelled joining, but he's not necessarily right about the source of the song. Afterall his experiment on Urthemiel wasn't what awoke any darkspawn. In fact using grey warden blood on Urthemiel was what tainted him and caused the fifth blight - which seems to confirm that the old gods are untainted until the darkspawn get to them. Could the old gods actually be innocent victims in this? Trapped with no way of escape while they get tainted? Turned into very powerful ghouls against their will? Or do they seek the power it brings to use for themselves? If they are victims could that be why Flemeth had Urthemiel's soul saved and why Solas is so horrified by the Grey Wardens plan to kill the two remaining?
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Post by gervaise21 on Jul 17, 2019 6:59:52 GMT
Could the old gods actually be innocent victims in this? Trapped with no way of escape while they get tainted? The only problem I have with this is that they are said to sing from their prisons with a song the darkspawn and Wardens can hear. Now if they are untainted they should not have any song at all. So either it is the prison that makes the song, which would make sense as to have created a powerful enough seal would require a lot of lyrium, or something else is directing them towards the Old God. Afterall his experiment on Urthemiel wasn't what awoke any darkspawn. In fact using grey warden blood on Urthemiel was what tainted him I'm not sure about this. Firstly, how did the Architect find him if he wasn't tainted? (see above). Also, why did the Architect think he needed the Warden Joining if he wasn't already tainted? It is a long time since I played DAA but I recall the Architect saying that it the act of trying to administer his "cure" that awoke Urthemiel. So I have wondered if the Old God was already tainted and the Architect was trying to help him whilst he slept but instead simply awoke him. The taint in the arch-demon is so strong that it is not possible to alter them in that way. Flemeth definitely seems on some sort of rescue mission for the Old God soul, although it is doubtful that is purely out of the goodness of her heart. The Old God soul represents power. However, it is interesting that once free of its corrupted body, it is free of the compulsions even though it was originally attracted to the foetus by the taint. That is something that has also bothered me about that plot. If the taint in the foetus is strong enough that the OG soul is drawn there rather than to any other darkspawn nearby, why isn't the child born tainted? I think these little details were conveniently overlooked and then forgotten by the writers. After all, by the end of DAI, Kieran no longer has the soul whether his body is tainted or not.
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Post by alanc9 on Jul 17, 2019 16:00:46 GMT
"Born tainted" meaning... what, though? Grey Wardens and darkspawn are both tainted, but that doesn't make them the same. The child is something else again. And it's not like anything was overlooked. The ritual did exactly what Morrigan said it would do.
I don't think it's actually all that likely that Flemeth was after power itself. She already had power. I think we should take Flemeth and Morrigan's motivations at face value; they really are about preserving stuff from the past, to the extent possible.
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Post by midnight tea on Jul 17, 2019 16:40:40 GMT
"Born tainted" meaning... what, though? Grey Wardens and darkspawn are both tainted, but that doesn't make them the same. The child is something else again. And it's not like anything was overlooked. The ritual did exactly what Morrigan said it would do. I don't think it's actually all that likely that Flemeth was after power itself. She already had power. I think we should take Flemeth and Morrigan's motivations at face value; they really are about preserving stuff from the past, to the extent possible. Yea, I think that this is almost all about Morrigan and how she acts rather than Kieran himself. OGB Kieran (just like meeting with Hawke that allowed her to travel to Sundermount undetected) is an opportunity rather than the main goal.
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Post by gervaise21 on Jul 17, 2019 18:22:31 GMT
I don't think it's actually all that likely that Flemeth was after power itself. She already had power. I think it is not so much a case that she "needed" it but she wanted to stop someone else getting it. Solas makes it clear that the Wardens are dabbling with things they really know nothing about. So the Wardens may think that the OG soul passing through the Warden destroys them both but what if it merely frees the soul from the endless cycle of darkspawn to darkspawn and leaves it free to go elsewhere? For example, if it is a fragment of another Evanuris (Creator or Forgotten One) then it can rejoin the original wherever they are imprisoned by Solas. Alternatively, if it actually is an Evanuris (because it was Solas who imprisoned it there), is frees them to return in an untainted body through doing their own deal, just like Mythal. They are then free to act independent of anyone else. It cannot simply be a rescue mission because why does Flemeth remove it from Kieran if that is the case? Once Flemeth has absorbed it, she controls what happens to it. Having the soul born into the body of a child that will be nurtured by Morrigan also ensures a degree of control until such time as the transfer takes place. So whilst Morrigan may have thought she was simply preserving something important from the past, I'm pretty sure Flemeth/Mythal's plan was more to do with her own personal goals.
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Post by colfoley on Jul 17, 2019 18:59:24 GMT
Could the old gods actually be innocent victims in this? Trapped with no way of escape while they get tainted? The only problem I have with this is that they are said to sing from their prisons with a song the darkspawn and Wardens can hear. Now if they are untainted they should not have any song at all. So either it is the prison that makes the song, which would make sense as to have created a powerful enough seal would require a lot of lyrium, or something else is directing them towards the Old God. Afterall his experiment on Urthemiel wasn't what awoke any darkspawn. In fact using grey warden blood on Urthemiel was what tainted him I'm not sure about this. Firstly, how did the Architect find him if he wasn't tainted? (see above). Also, why did the Architect think he needed the Warden Joining if he wasn't already tainted? It is a long time since I played DAA but I recall the Architect saying that it the act of trying to administer his "cure" that awoke Urthemiel. So I have wondered if the Old God was already tainted and the Architect was trying to help him whilst he slept but instead simply awoke him. The taint in the arch-demon is so strong that it is not possible to alter them in that way. Flemeth definitely seems on some sort of rescue mission for the Old God soul, although it is doubtful that is purely out of the goodness of her heart. The Old God soul represents power. However, it is interesting that once free of its corrupted body, it is free of the compulsions even though it was originally attracted to the foetus by the taint. That is something that has also bothered me about that plot. If the taint in the foetus is strong enough that the OG soul is drawn there rather than to any other darkspawn nearby, why isn't the child born tainted? I think these little details were conveniently overlooked and then forgotten by the writers. After all, by the end of DAI, Kieran no longer has the soul whether his body is tainted or not. my theory about titans and Red Lyrium would explain the inconsistencies...
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Post by Absafraginlootly on Jul 18, 2019 2:49:12 GMT
Fun thing I just noticed whilst trying to figure out what the date should be in the dragon age pnp campaign I'm running:
The official high name* of the month of Cloudreach is Eluviesta. Thats awfully close to the word Eluvian.
*High names are based on the original tevinter month names
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Post by gervaise21 on Jul 18, 2019 8:33:03 GMT
The official high name* of the month of Cloudreach is Eluviesta. Thats awfully close to the word Eluvian. Good spot! Since the Fade is equated with the sky that would make the Eternal/Golden City the city in the clouds and how did the ancients reach there? Via eluvian. I'd say that the use of Eluviesta being associated with Cloudreach is not accidental, bearing in mind what we know about the meaning of the word, Skyhold. Could that month have been significant in some way with the creation of the Veil, so the city was now out of reach in the clouds? Avvar legends certainly seem to recall the event so why not the pre-Imperium Tevinter people too?
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Post by warden on Jul 20, 2019 21:48:46 GMT
Thanks to what we saw in Warden's keep with Avernus experiments.
I really think Wardens have the potential to develop some crazy abilities that could make any kind of being tremble of fear. They have so much potential, yet so little has been done with it.
Call me crazy or captain obvious, but the Wardens from Anderfels are nothing like the wardens we have seen so far, and it's not only because they are nobility there, there are a lot of things that can be explored, one could be what I said above, show how much potential a warden has in their tainted blood.
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Post by midnight tea on Jul 20, 2019 22:51:09 GMT
Thanks to what we saw in Warden's keep with Avernus experiments. I really think Wardens have the potential to develop some crazy abilities that could make any kind of being tremble of fear. They have so much potential, yet so little has been done with it. Call me crazy or captain obvious, but the Wardens from Anderfels are nothing like the wardens we have seen so far, and it's not only because they are nobility there, there are a lot of things that can be explored, one could be what I said above, show how much potential a warden has in their tainted blood. I don't think this is where they are going with Wardens, and especially with Wardens from Anderfels. Whatever secrets they have and powers they could develop, it's somethinb that may only be utilized for the benefit of Weisshaupt alone. I say so because the suggestion since DAO is that Anderfels Wardens are corrupt and interested mostly in political power and reign over the region. Like... being a nobility there isn't a good sign, you know? That's not what Wardens are for.
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Post by xerrai on Jul 20, 2019 23:31:14 GMT
What's the deal with Skyhold? I mean, aside from the obvious implications that it was used by Solas's ancient elvhen army and likely the place where the veil was put up, I still have a lot of questions about the place. We have all these hints that not only were the ancient elves there, but a Divine age Ferelden enchanter ( codex here), and probably dwarves at some point (there's a dwarven statue and an old dwarven chandelier to hint this) and possibly even another large group of humans who built over the structure sometime near the Black age (if the stolen brick is anything to go by). And some of these residents were not lone scholars either, but full forces capable of delivering the resources necessary to rebuild the fortress ( codex here and here)...and yet there is little to no record about who they were or what they did. Large forces don't just do nothing.
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