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Post by Deleted on Aug 28, 2019 14:18:11 GMT
The promise made to you at the end of ME1 was that Shepard was going to continue to find a way to stop the Reapers He blew up a cluster, stopped their minions that were abducting people throughout Alliance space and killed a would be fully operational Reaper that who knows what it would be able to do, had it been allowed to become fully operational. I think it held up its side of the bargain. Chasing off to stop the Collectors from kidnapping human colonies does not constitute finding a way to stop the Reaper until more than halfway through the game when it is discovered that the Collectors are Reaper drones. TIM has nothing to offer Shepard during that initial conversation except blatant speculation "IF they're working with the Reapers... blah, blah, blah). No proof of them working with the Reapers is found on Freedom's Progress. There is no reason why Shepard shouldn't walk away from TIM at that point per their conversation... having not found the proof he/she needed. Is your argument that we shouldn't be trying to figure out stuff? Like, is the information supposed to land on us? Are the Collectors supposed to parade around the galaxy with a "We work for the Reapers" sign on the ship? Should my problem be that the game isn't stupid? I don't understand the argument. The only difference is you want to rationalize it because you like ME2... which was my point. In ME3, there are several hints early in the game that Cerberus agents are being changed into husks and that TIM is indoctrinated They don't behave like Reaper units, they don't look like Reaper units. They fight like humans and look like humans. You're fighting humans. You can't blow up Aratoht until after Horizon... that's at least 1/3 through the game. There is no indication at Aratoht that the Collectors are working for the Reapers. Kenson found a Reaper artifact that is indoctrinating her and her team (none of whom are either Cerberus or Collectors). It still doesn't connect the main plot of ME2 to "finding a way to stop the Reapers" - The problem made in ME1. My argument is that Shepard committed expressly "finding a way to stop them (i.e. the Reapers)" and TIM tells him/her at the beginning of ME2 that he/she can leave if he/she "doesn't find the proof" he/she needs that the collonies are being harvested by the Reapers. What Shepard finds on Freedom's Progress is that the conlonies are being abducted by the Collectors, but there is absolutely no proof that the Collectors are working for the Reapers. So, by not leaving TIM at that stage, Shepard is, in effect, abandoning his promise to find a way to stop the Reapers in order to merely save human colonies... a job he/she also expresses as really belonging to the Alliance... an Alliance who TIM says is too busy dealing with the aftermath of the Reaper attack on the Citadel. If it's the Alliance that's already spread to thin to deal with the Reaper threat, shouldn't Shepard want to be helping them instead of chasing off to rescue colonies with Cerberus?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 28, 2019 14:19:04 GMT
The presumption of death in absentia is the legal term for it. Concise explantion per Wikipedia: "A person may be legally declared dead in absentia, i.e. a legal presumption of death may be declared, despite the absence of direct proof of the person's death, such as the finding of remains (e.g., a corpse or skeleton) attributable to that person. Such a declaration is typically made when a person has been missing for an extended period of time and in the absence of any evidence that the person is still alive – or after a much shorter period but where the circumstances surrounding a person's disappearance overwhelmingly support the belief that the person has died (e.g., an airplane crash)." Until Bioware says how much time as passed from when the crucible fired to when the memorial scene happened, I will stick with MIA. If the scene takes place a day or longer, then yes, I would agree with the presumed dead part Unfortunately the asari didn't inform anyone that Shepard's body was in the hands of Cerberus. Hope? So putting the nameplate on the wall means hope? Wouldn't the hesitation mean they hope that Shepard is alive? How would they know Anderson is dead before Hackett came online? Just because Shepard is in a weakened state doesn't mean she/he will die. And from what they've seen Shepard do previously, death would likely be the furthest thing from their minds. Certainly, continue to believe what you like. That's my point - it's open to interpretation... and that was intentionally done by Bioware... with all aspects of the endings.
Unfortunately, the death in absentia declaration may have been made before the asari even knew Shepard's body was in the hands of Cerberus. The circumstances of being spaced from an exploding ship as witnessed by Joker may have been enough to make the declaration immediately.
No, putting a plate on the wall means the loss of hope... it's still not proof of death. No putting the plate on the wall is proof that the LI still holds out hope... even though the manufacture of the plaque indicates that there is also reason for others not hold out hope.
The comm is open... what Hackett overhears before starting to speak with Shepard is unknown. Whether there is a portion of the conversation where Shepard even tells Hackett "Anderson is dead" that is simply just left out of the cut scene is unknown. Perhaps, he/she even whispers that he/she is badly injured that Bioware just keeps us from actually hearing. We never see every moment of every part of Shepard's life from start to finish at any point in the game. Time is constantly skipped for the sake of moving the game forward... so playing it doesn't take the actual weeks and months that such an endeavor as building the Crucible would have taken.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Aug 28, 2019 14:38:19 GMT
You can't blow up Aratoht until after Horizon... that's at least 1/3 through the game. There is no indication at Aratoht that the Collectors are working for the Reapers. Kenson found a Reaper artifact that is indoctrinating her and her team (none of whom are either Cerberus or Collectors) But you are working to stop the Reapers, which is again what I set out to do. You are going way out of your way to mark me a hypocrite, though. I mean, that is the plan, isn't it? Mark me a hypocrite, so you can be dismissive of me? I don't get why else would you be so hang up on why I have a problem with ME3, when you don't. It still doesn't connect the main plot of ME2 to "finding a way to stop the Reapers" - I mean, if I don't stop them, then they effectively reach the Milky Way at that very moment, so ... I don't think that argument is remotely true? My argument is that Shepard committed expressly "finding a way to stop them (i.e. the Reapers)" and TIM tells him/her at the beginning of ME2 that he/she can leave if he/she "doesn't find the proof" he/she needs that the collonies are being harvested by the Reapers. What Shepard finds on Freedom's Progress is that the conlonies are being abducted by the Collectors, but there is absolutely no proof that the Collectors are working for the Reapers But we keep digging into it and in the end we find that we were right to do so. Why did we insist on trying to find out what the Collectors were? Maybe it was feminine intuition. Or autism. Or that Reapers seem to hide behind proxies, to do their dirty work. I mean, it's not like they had pulled that one before *couch*Saren*cough* |
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Post by griffith82 on Aug 28, 2019 14:47:54 GMT
You're being sold one thing and then you get something that isn't it. I assume the frustration would be the same. It's not lying. It's a plot twist, subversion of expectations. It's unsatisfying, but it's not lying. Yes. But overall you were fighting Respers and that was enough for me. Well, for some people it wasn't. And it doesn't make it an invalid complaint, just because you didn't have that complaint. Is the Cerberus/Reaper distinction all that rational? I don't know. One's a force of Eldritch Horrors, the other's a group of guys with logos on their shirts. I mean, it sounds like a distinction to me. Fair enough. |
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Post by griffith82 on Aug 28, 2019 14:52:25 GMT
He blew up a cluster, stopped their minions that were abducting people throughout Alliance space and killed a would be fully operational Reaper that who knows what it would be able to do, had it been allowed to become fully operational. I think it held up its side of the bargain. Is your argument that we shouldn't be trying to figure out stuff? Like, is the information supposed to land on us? Are the Collectors supposed to parade around the galaxy with a "We work for the Reapers" sign on the ship? Should my problem be that the game isn't stupid? I don't understand the argument. They don't behave like Reaper units, they don't look like Reaper units. They fight like humans and look like humans. You're fighting humans. You can't blow up Aratoht until after Horizon... that's at least 1/3 through the game. There is no indication at Aratoht that the Collectors are working for the Reapers. Kenson found a Reaper artifact that is indoctrinating her and her team (none of whom are either Cerberus or Collectors). It still doesn't connect the main plot of ME2 to "finding a way to stop the Reapers" - The problem made in ME1. My argument is that Shepard committed expressly "finding a way to stop them (i.e. the Reapers)" and TIM tells him/her at the beginning of ME2 that he/she can leave if he/she "doesn't find the proof" he/she needs that the collonies are being harvested by the Reapers. What Shepard finds on Freedom's Progress is that the conlonies are being abducted by the Collectors, but there is absolutely no proof that the Collectors are working for the Reapers. So, by not leaving TIM at that stage, Shepard is, in effect, abandoning his promise to find a way to stop the Reapers in order to merely save human colonies... a job he/she also expresses as really belonging to the Alliance... an Alliance who TIM says is too busy dealing with the aftermath of the Reaper attack on the Citadel. If it's the Alliance that's already spread to thin to deal with the Reaper threat, shouldn't Shepard want to be helping them instead of chasing off to rescue colonies with Cerberus? That's a very interesting take on ME2. You are right but in my mind Shep knows something is up and investigates to find the truth. Then at Horizin he/she finds the truth or enough of it then the big reveal on the collector ship. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 28, 2019 15:03:36 GMT
You can't blow up Aratoht until after Horizon... that's at least 1/3 through the game. There is no indication at Aratoht that the Collectors are working for the Reapers. Kenson found a Reaper artifact that is indoctrinating her and her team (none of whom are either Cerberus or Collectors) But you are working to stop the Reapers, which is again what I set out to do. You are going way out of your way to mark me a hypocrite, though. I mean, that is the plan, isn't it? Mark me a hypocrite, so you can be dismissive of me? I don't get why else would you be so hang up on why I have a problem with ME3, when you don't. It still doesn't connect the main plot of ME2 to "finding a way to stop the Reapers" - I mean, if I don't stop them, then they effectively reach the Milky Way at that very moment, so ... I don't think that argument is remotely true? My argument is that Shepard committed expressly "finding a way to stop them (i.e. the Reapers)" and TIM tells him/her at the beginning of ME2 that he/she can leave if he/she "doesn't find the proof" he/she needs that the collonies are being harvested by the Reapers. What Shepard finds on Freedom's Progress is that the conlonies are being abducted by the Collectors, but there is absolutely no proof that the Collectors are working for the Reapers But we keep digging into it and in the end we find that we were right to do so. Why did we insist on trying to find out what the Collectors were? Maybe it was feminine intuition. Or autism. Or that Reapers seem to hide behind proxies, to do their dirty work. I mean, it's not like they had pulled that one before *couch*Saren*cough* Where is the proof on Freedom's Progress that there is any actual connection between the Collectors and the Reapers? There is none given until you get to the Collector Ship. Even Arrival is not proof of a connection between the Collectors and the Reapers since it doesn't involve Collectors at all.
With ME3, you are shown a Cerberus soldier on Mars who is being turned into a husk. AFter that, you're never shown a Cerberus foot soldier without his/her helmet, so how can you say they "look human." When you talk with TIM on Mars, you can point blank tell him "You're indoctrinated." You can do the Eden Prime DLC right after leaving the Citadel after Mars and get a very complete story about what happened to the Protheans with the Reapers turning their own people into Reaper drones and using them against them. On Sanctum, again early game, you can read datapads that describe what's happening with Talavi's little brother. In ME3, Cerberus is not a diversion from the Reaper War. Early on, there is no question that by fighting Cerberus, you are fighting indoctrinated Reaper drones.
I don't have to go out of my way to show that Cerberus is indoctrinated and are Reaper drones from the outset of ME3. It's about as "in your face" as Bioware can make it.
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Post by Iakus on Aug 28, 2019 15:06:27 GMT
You can't blow up Aratoht until after Horizon... that's at least 1/3 through the game. There is no indication at Aratoht that the Collectors are working for the Reapers. Kenson found a Reaper artifact that is indoctrinating her and her team (none of whom are either Cerberus or Collectors). It still doesn't connect the main plot of ME2 to "finding a way to stop the Reapers" - The problem made in ME1. My argument is that Shepard committed expressly "finding a way to stop them (i.e. the Reapers)" and TIM tells him/her at the beginning of ME2 that he/she can leave if he/she "doesn't find the proof" he/she needs that the collonies are being harvested by the Reapers. What Shepard finds on Freedom's Progress is that the conlonies are being abducted by the Collectors, but there is absolutely no proof that the Collectors are working for the Reapers. So, by not leaving TIM at that stage, Shepard is, in effect, abandoning his promise to find a way to stop the Reapers in order to merely save human colonies... a job he/she also expresses as really belonging to the Alliance... an Alliance who TIM says is too busy dealing with the aftermath of the Reaper attack on the Citadel. If it's the Alliance that's already spread to thin to deal with the Reaper threat, shouldn't Shepard want to be helping them instead of chasing off to rescue colonies with Cerberus? That's a very interesting take on ME2. You are right but in my mind Shep knows something is up and investigates to find the truth. Then at Horizin he/she finds the truth or enough of it then the big reveal on the collector ship. My Shepard had a control chip put in his head, because it never seems to occur to him to confirm what Cerberus says about, well, anything, by a third party....
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Post by Iakus on Aug 28, 2019 15:07:19 GMT
The presumption of death in absentia is the legal term for it. Concise explantion per Wikipedia: "A person may be legally declared dead in absentia, i.e. a legal presumption of death may be declared, despite the absence of direct proof of the person's death, such as the finding of remains (e.g., a corpse or skeleton) attributable to that person. Such a declaration is typically made when a person has been missing for an extended period of time and in the absence of any evidence that the person is still alive – or after a much shorter period but where the circumstances surrounding a person's disappearance overwhelmingly support the belief that the person has died (e.g., an airplane crash)." Until Bioware says how much time as passed from when the crucible fired to when the memorial scene happened, I will stick with MIA. If the scene takes place a day or longer, then yes, I would agree with the presumed dead part Unfortunately the asari didn't inform anyone that Shepard's body was in the hands of Cerberus. Hope? So putting the nameplate on the wall means hope? Wouldn't the hesitation mean they hope that Shepard is alive? How would they know Anderson is dead before Hackett came online? Just because Shepard is in a weakened state doesn't mean she/he will die. And from what they've seen Shepard do previously, death would likely be the furthest thing from their minds. 
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Post by alanc9 on Aug 28, 2019 15:40:51 GMT
So, by not leaving TIM at that stage, Shepard is, in effect, abandoning his promise to find a way to stop the Reapers in order to merely save human colonies... a job he/she also expresses as really belonging to the Alliance... an Alliance who TIM says is too busy dealing with the aftermath of the Reaper attack on the Citadel. If it's the Alliance that's already spread to thin to deal with the Reaper threat, shouldn't Shepard want to be helping them instead of chasing off to rescue colonies with Cerberus? What would this have looked like, in-universe? Shepard returns to the Alliance and does...... |
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Post by alanc9 on Aug 28, 2019 15:47:44 GMT
Point is, they're on the same side in the same war. Cerberus seeks to Control the Reapers and overrule the Council to establish a human supremacy. They're not fighting for the Reapers, but both against the Council races and the Reapers. Whether TIM is indoctrinated and ultimately won't doesn't change the fact that its just some suited guys with an orange logo. Not what I signed up for, but feel free to mask it under whatever pretense suits your narrative. Just don't get mad when I don't subscribe under it. Huh? The narrative is that Cerberus reoeatedly tries to interfere with the Alliance war effort and Crucible construction. The only time they do something which doesn't aid the Reapers, they get slapped down hard. |
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Post by SirSourpuss on Aug 28, 2019 16:15:22 GMT
Where is the proof on Freedom's Progress that there is any actual connection between the Collectors and the Reapers? I didn't say that. There is none given until you get to the Collector Ship Sure. Even Arrival is not proof of a connection between the Collectors and the Reapers since it doesn't involve Collectors at all. Sure. With ME3, you are shown a Cerberus soldier on Mars who is being turned into a husk. AFter that, you're never shown a Cerberus foot soldier without his/her helmet, so how can you say they "look human." Well, what can I say? I never cared about what experiments TIM did/does on their troops. And I never really cared for Cerberus as a faction enough as to want to fight them, at least thematically, for the Reaper War. Under a different theme, maybe I would like to. Say, for a game that involved Miranda, wanting to get revenge for TIM and co. selling her and Oriana out to Henry. Or Jack, because fuck Cerberus. I just really think Cerberus in ME3 was a mistake, at least the way they went about implementing them. You don't have to agree with me. I don't have to go out of my way to show that Cerberus is indoctrinated and are Reaper drones from the outset of ME3. It's about as "in your face" as Bioware can make it. I don't agree with that mentality. It's like saying that the Geth are Reaper drones. Cerberus is its own faction, with its own agenda, even in ME3. In spite of the indoctrinated TIM, they were very much looking to "Control" the Reapers and is probably the reason TIM was there at the Beam in the ending. I think, or at least it seemed to me, that Cerberus had a very robust agenda to get Humanity above everyone else in the Galaxy, even the Reapers, at whatever the cost. And if that cost was the humanity of their troops, that was a sacrifice TIM was willing to make. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 28, 2019 16:17:11 GMT
So, by not leaving TIM at that stage, Shepard is, in effect, abandoning his promise to find a way to stop the Reapers in order to merely save human colonies... a job he/she also expresses as really belonging to the Alliance... an Alliance who TIM says is too busy dealing with the aftermath of the Reaper attack on the Citadel. If it's the Alliance that's already spread to thin to deal with the Reaper threat, shouldn't Shepard want to be helping them instead of chasing off to rescue colonies with Cerberus? What would this have looked like, in-universe? Shepard returns to the Alliance and does......
Obviously, we don't know what Bioware could have written about the path not taken. It's up to your imagination. Shepard could have actually found a way to prevent, permanently, the Reapers from entering the galaxy (since we are left with that "castle defense" notion from ME1). He/she could have gone back to the Alliance and helped them continue to chase down geth... which could have ultimately led the story to the realization that the geth were being manipulated with Reaper Code (long before Legion's revelations in ME3).
All I'm saying is it's somewhat illogical to set up the scenario where Shepard can leave Cerberus if he/she doesn't find proof on Freedom's Progress that the Reapers are involved in the colonist abductions and then not have him/her follow through on that when no proof is actually found during that mission. ME2 is a derailment from the main Reaper plot to a greater degree than fighting Cerberus in ME3 is, period... regardless of whether or not you like either one better or dislike either one more than the other.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Aug 28, 2019 16:17:57 GMT
Huh? The narrative is that Cerberus reoeatedly tries to interfere with the Alliance war effort and Crucible construction Because they'd want the Crucible under their influence, perhaps? By weakening the Alliance and the council races, they effectively make sure that nobody will have the strength to stand up to them, post war. Kinda like with Loghain in DA:O. |
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Post by alanc9 on Aug 28, 2019 16:21:29 GMT
You seem to have believed Cerberus' propaganda more than I did.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 28, 2019 16:22:46 GMT
Where is the proof on Freedom's Progress that there is any actual connection between the Collectors and the Reapers? I didn't say that. There is none given until you get to the Collector Ship Sure. Even Arrival is not proof of a connection between the Collectors and the Reapers since it doesn't involve Collectors at all. Sure. With ME3, you are shown a Cerberus soldier on Mars who is being turned into a husk. AFter that, you're never shown a Cerberus foot soldier without his/her helmet, so how can you say they "look human." Well, what can I say? I never cared about what experiments TIM did/does on their troops. And I never really cared for Cerberus as a faction enough as to want to fight them, at least thematically, for the Reaper War. Under a different theme, maybe I would like to. Say, for a game that involved Miranda, wanting to get revenge for TIM and co. selling her and Oriana out to Henry. Or Jack, because fuck Cerberus. I just really think Cerberus in ME3 was a mistake, at least the way they went about implementing them. You don't have to agree with me. I don't have to go out of my way to show that Cerberus is indoctrinated and are Reaper drones from the outset of ME3. It's about as "in your face" as Bioware can make it. I don't agree with that mentality. It's like saying that the Geth are Reaper drones. Cerberus is its own faction, with its own agenda, even in ME3. In spite of the indoctrinated TIM, they were very much looking to "Control" the Reapers and is probably the reason TIM was there at the Beam in the ending. I think, or at least it seemed to me, that Cerberus had a very robust agenda to get Humanity above everyone else in the Galaxy, even the Reapers, at whatever the cost. And if that cost was the humanity of their troops, that was a sacrifice TIM was willing to make.    (shrug)
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Post by Pounce de León on Aug 28, 2019 16:25:46 GMT
And yet Shepard does survive depending on ems and if destroy is chosen. No. They just take a last breath before passing.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Aug 28, 2019 16:26:11 GMT
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Post by Iakus on Aug 28, 2019 16:30:07 GMT
So, by not leaving TIM at that stage, Shepard is, in effect, abandoning his promise to find a way to stop the Reapers in order to merely save human colonies... a job he/she also expresses as really belonging to the Alliance... an Alliance who TIM says is too busy dealing with the aftermath of the Reaper attack on the Citadel. If it's the Alliance that's already spread to thin to deal with the Reaper threat, shouldn't Shepard want to be helping them instead of chasing off to rescue colonies with Cerberus? What would this have looked like, in-universe? Shepard returns to the Alliance and does...... Investigate the Collectors using Council/SA resources instead? Goes back to Cerberus as a mole/double agent? Investigates Object Rho for Hackett? Work with Liara to investigate past Reaper cycles? it's not like there's a dearth of possibilities.
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Post by alanc9 on Aug 29, 2019 0:14:18 GMT
What would this have looked like, in-universe? Shepard returns to the Alliance and does......
Obviously, we don't know what Bioware could have written about the path not taken. It's up to your imagination. Shepard could have actually found a way to prevent, permanently, the Reapers from entering the galaxy (since we are left with that "castle defense" notion from ME1). He/she could have gone back to the Alliance and helped them continue to chase down geth... which could have ultimately led the story to the realization that the geth were being manipulated with Reaper Code (long before Legion's revelations in ME3).
All I'm saying is it's somewhat illogical to set up the scenario where Shepard can leave Cerberus if he/she doesn't find proof on Freedom's Progress that the Reapers are involved in the colonist abductions and then not have him/her follow through on that when no proof is actually found during that mission. ME2 is a derailment from the main Reaper plot to a greater degree than fighting Cerberus in ME3 is, period... regardless of whether or not you like either one better or dislike either one more than the other.
Sure. But at the time Shepard throws in with Cerberus, he doesn't actually have any leads on the Reapers. (Shepard hadn't heard of Object Rho yet) There's no guarantee that any action he takes will bring him nearer to them. And meanwhile, the Collector threat is something which should be dealt with. If the Alliance won't, or can't, might as well work with the guys who can. If the Coucil or somebody were willing to work on the problem that'd be different, but the game establishes that they aren't. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 29, 2019 0:18:21 GMT
Obviously, we don't know what Bioware could have written about the path not taken. It's up to your imagination. Shepard could have actually found a way to prevent, permanently, the Reapers from entering the galaxy (since we are left with that "castle defense" notion from ME1). He/she could have gone back to the Alliance and helped them continue to chase down geth... which could have ultimately led the story to the realization that the geth were being manipulated with Reaper Code (long before Legion's revelations in ME3).
All I'm saying is it's somewhat illogical to set up the scenario where Shepard can leave Cerberus if he/she doesn't find proof on Freedom's Progress that the Reapers are involved in the colonist abductions and then not have him/her follow through on that when no proof is actually found during that mission. ME2 is a derailment from the main Reaper plot to a greater degree than fighting Cerberus in ME3 is, period... regardless of whether or not you like either one better or dislike either one more than the other.
Sure. But at the time Shepard throws in with Cerberus, he doesn't actually have any leads on the Reapers. There's no guarantee that any action he takes will bring him nearer to them. And meanwhile, the Collector threat is something which should be dealt with. If the Alliance won't, or can't, might as well work with the guys who can. At the time he/she throws in with Cerberus though (right after Freedom's Progress), all he/she has is TIM's assertions that the Alliance can't or won't do anything. If could see it more IF Shepard only made such a decision after talking with Anderson on the Citadel; but as it stands, he's all in before then... and possibly long, long before then depending on what order the player decides to do things in. From what I've seen, most even just follow TIM's recommendations and go to Omega first to grab Mordin.
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Post by alanc9 on Aug 29, 2019 1:00:49 GMT
But a player who actually cares about this can have Shepard fly to the Citadel immediately, right? (Might as well say he's in with Cerberus first; he needs their ship to go anyplace.)
Do we have a design alternative which actually works within something like the ME2 budget, without just cancelling the whole Cerberus thing outright?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 29, 2019 1:54:38 GMT
But a player who actually cares about this can have Shepard fly to the Citadel immediately, right? (Might as well say he's in with Cerberus first; he needs their ship to go anyplace.) Do we have a design alternative which actually works within something like the ME2 budget, without just cancelling the whole Cerberus thing outright? I'm not suggesting anything be changed though. My preference, if they do anything with the OT, is to do a simple graphics and sound remaster and make it available for digital download in the Xbox store. My preference for a new game remains to do a ME:A2... moving forward and forgetting about correcting the flaws in the OT. Regardless of it's flaws, to me the OT is good enough left alone.
ME2 deviated from the Reaper plot and brought in Cerberus. On several fronts, it's start is not the most logical... including setting up the notion that Shepard can leave if he doesn't find what he's looking for (i.e. a way to stop the Reapers) and then not provide any evidence for him to find on Freedom's Progress. Sending Shepard to hunt up geth (which were a lead to the Reapers because they were Saren's minions) was not an illogical thing for the Alliance to do... yet Miranda claims it was... and the player is expected to just blindly buy into that. You said yourself that Shepard had no other leads... but he/she did... the geth.
I think ME3 did an OK job connecting Cerberus back to the Reaper plot. I was fine fighting Cerberus "reaper drones" for much of the game because I don't expect Bioware to just stop their habitual "boss battle" avoidance... and it's not like they are alone in that. Too many boss battles can make for a slog of a game as well.
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Post by Iakus on Aug 29, 2019 4:14:08 GMT
But a player who actually cares about this can have Shepard fly to the Citadel immediately, right? (Might as well say he's in with Cerberus first; he needs their ship to go anyplace.) Do we have a design alternative which actually works within something like the ME2 budget, without just cancelling the whole Cerberus thing outright? Not until AFTER agreeing to work with TIM, without verifying a single damn claim TIM makes. TIM also says if you don't want to work with them, they can go their separate ways. There is zero option to take him up on that.
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Post by griffith82 on Sept 3, 2019 15:36:06 GMT
But a player who actually cares about this can have Shepard fly to the Citadel immediately, right? (Might as well say he's in with Cerberus first; he needs their ship to go anyplace.) Do we have a design alternative which actually works within something like the ME2 budget, without just cancelling the whole Cerberus thing outright? Not until AFTER agreeing to work with TIM, without verifying a single damn claim TIM makes. TIM also says if you don't want to work with them, they can go their separate ways. There is zero option to take him up on that. I can't believe I'm agreeing with you but in this instance I agree there should have been that option but that would require making nearly 2 separate games. |
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Post by Iakus on Sept 3, 2019 15:55:13 GMT
Not until AFTER agreeing to work with TIM, without verifying a single damn claim TIM makes. TIM also says if you don't want to work with them, they can go their separate ways. There is zero option to take him up on that. I can't believe I'm agreeing with you but in this instance I agree there should have been that option but that would require making nearly 2 separate games. Not a whole separate game, really. It's entirely possible to circle things back around to where Shepard ends up taking TIM up on his offer (I am not opposed to a "working with the bad guys" scenario as such, merely in how it was railroaded) It would, however, have required some exclusive content: Shepard visiting the Council and/or Anderson and Udina, and either being ordered to work with TIM as a way to infiltrate Cerberus (Paragon) or getting frustrated with the officials and going back to TIM of your own accord (Renegade). How things ended in ME1 could also push Shepard one direction or the other.
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