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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Aug 27, 2019 19:16:57 GMT
Is the Cerberus/Reaper distinction all that rational? A force which consistently advances Reaper goals (Horizon excepted) isn't some sort of unrelated third party. Yeah, the first mission fighting them it is established that they are a kind of Husk, pretty much replacing the Collectors. Just with the caveat of thinking they aren’t being controlled similar to Saren.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 27, 2019 19:23:24 GMT
Is the Cerberus/Reaper distinction all that rational? A force which consistently advances Reaper goals (Horizon excepted) isn't some sort of unrelated third party. I agree. By the end of ME3, Cerberus are, in effect, Reaper drones anyways. Fighting them is just Bioware's way of avoiding single boss-type battles. Combat-wise, they tend to rely on hordes instead.
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Post by Iakus on Aug 27, 2019 20:40:33 GMT
Is the Cerberus/Reaper distinction all that rational? A force which consistently advances Reaper goals (Horizon excepted) isn't some sort of unrelated third party. Cerberus never should have been big enough to be a third party in the first place.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 27, 2019 20:59:08 GMT
Indeed. SOME people like to put words in people's mouth, misrepresent what they say, and strawman their way into "winning" arguments. They've been doing it for years. Must give them warm fuzzy feelings or something. Why don't you explain what kind of ending you were expecting?
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Post by Iakus on Aug 27, 2019 21:21:47 GMT
Indeed. SOME people like to put words in people's mouth, misrepresent what they say, and strawman their way into "winning" arguments. They've been doing it for years. Must give them warm fuzzy feelings or something. Why don't you explain what kind of ending you were expecting? Because I wasn't expecting a "kind" of ending. I was expecting MANY endings. I expected endings where Shepard died heroically and saved everyone, and endings where Shepard lived in the ruins of a dying world. I expected endings where the Reapers were defeated but there were no more relays. I expected endings where the Reapers were defeated, but remained to threaten the galaxy once again. I expected my choices to mean more than a number.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 27, 2019 21:37:18 GMT
You saw the outcome of your choices during the course of the game. Just like they had advertised.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 27, 2019 21:48:28 GMT
Why don't you explain what kind of ending you were expecting? Because I wasn't expecting a "kind" of ending. I was expecting MANY endings. I expected endings where Shepard died heroically and saved everyone, and endings where Shepard lived in the ruins of a dying world. I expected endings where the Reapers were defeated but there were no more relays. I expected endings where the Reapers were defeated, but remained to threaten the galaxy once again. I expected my choices to mean more than a number. Well, the first type of endings you listed are essentially the ME1 style where the sole hero magically solves everything with no consequence and no sacrifice involved... nothing dependent on whether or not the hero was a "paragon" or a "renegade." If not based on a one-liner of red or blue dialogue, what did you expect your hero to be able to do to "save everyone." Lob a grenade at Harbinger and have him just die because the grenade hit his "Achilles heel?"... followed by all his minions leaving the galaxy and swearing never to return because "OMG, the boss is dead?"
ME3 set up the notion that you were spending the game building some sort of doomsday weapon and you didn't even know what it does. At the very end, you find out that it does NOTHING really good... the galaxy has blown the chance at a happy ending for all. Now, you have no time to poll the galaxy, to see what outcome they prefer. You have to choose and the choices are nothing really good... but it is a choice you can make based on what your Shepard believed throughout the games. Ideologically, who did he side with the most - Anderson or TIM or neither.
I would argue that, if Shepard is the sort of hero who is mostly concerned with upholding free will, then the fact that the destroy ending results in the destruction fo the geth shouldn't be a concern... in that such a person would not have allowed Legion to violate the free will of the geth by uplifting them without their permission by uploading Reaper code. In that case, the Quarians would have destroyed them before the ending and the only individual who dies as a result of destroy (other than possibly Shepard) is EDI. Collateral damage of 1 individual in a galactic war is certainly not excessive.
NOTE: I'm in no way agreeing that this should be made the canon ending though.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 27, 2019 22:55:20 GMT
I have to wonder if EDI's body that she had during ME3 was destroyed, or her main processor or whatever you call it down in the server room.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 27, 2019 23:12:07 GMT
I have to wonder if EDI's body that she had during ME3 was destroyed, or her main processor or whatever you call it down in the server room. How did you answer the argument between Adams and Donnelly... Is EDI the Normandy or a passenger on the Normandy? I think, possibly, the choice you made there might hold the answer differently for each individual Shepard, and might explain how it's possible to come to either conclusion even when her name to appears on the Memorial Board yet we witness the Normandy flying off.
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Post by themikefest on Aug 27, 2019 23:18:35 GMT
I have to wonder if EDI's body that she had during ME3 was destroyed, or her main processor or whatever you call it down in the server room. If the platform is taken on the beam run with ems below 2000, it will be destroyed by Harbinger. If control is chosen, it's name will not be on the memorial wall whereas if destroy was the choice, edi's name will be on the wall.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 27, 2019 23:24:52 GMT
I have to wonder if EDI's body that she had during ME3 was destroyed, or her main processor or whatever you call it down in the server room. How did you answer the argument between Adams and Donnelly... Is EDI the Normandy or a passenger on the Normandy? I think, possibly, the choice you made there might hold the answer differently for each individual Shepard, and might explain how it's possible to come to either conclusion even when her name to appears on the Memorial Board yet we witness the Normandy flying off. She's a computer program that is located in the server room on the Normandy. She wasn't there when the original Normandy was smashed.
Uh huh. How does your crew know Anderson died? No one told them. Only person who knows is Shepard, because he saw him die. I have my doubts on that scene.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 27, 2019 23:33:18 GMT
How did you answer the argument between Adams and Donnelly... Is EDI the Normandy or a passenger on the Normandy? I think, possibly, the choice you made there might hold the answer differently for each individual Shepard, and might explain how it's possible to come to either conclusion even when her name to appears on the Memorial Board yet we witness the Normandy flying off. She's a computer program that is located in the server room on the Normandy. She wasn't there when the original Normandy was smashed. Not sure why you're bringing in the original Normandy... I'm exclusively referring to the SR-2. The debate between Adams and Donnelly in ME3, however, centers around her processes being spread throughout the ship, integrated with all the various components of the ship from sensors to weapons to communications to life support to engines. I'm not looking to argue about the answer. I'm merely saying that it is a question asked by the game that each player can answer either way depending on what they think... and what they think could have an implication in if they interpret whether or not EDI could still exist in some form even after a destroy ending is implemented.
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Post by themikefest on Aug 27, 2019 23:52:35 GMT
Uh huh. How does your crew know Anderson died? No one told them. Only person who knows is Shepard, because he saw him die. I have my doubts on that scene. And how does the guy know the details about what happened on the Citadel if all are dead? Only one survives, Shepard. Shepard tells the first story that is passed down to others who tell the story and so on and so on.
Good question about Anderson one that I've asked many times. How would they know Anderson and even Shepard are dead? How much time has past from when the crucible fired to the memorial scene? One scenario I posted is that someone from C-Sec, possibly Bailey finds Shepard's body while another finds Anderson's body. He call's Hackett to inform him that Anderson is dead and that Shepard is dead/alive. Hackett then forwards the message to the Normandy. Of course that scenario is only for the red. What about the blue and green? If anything, Shepard should be MIA.
As far as the edibot being destroyed by Harbinger. Here's it being destroyed
And here is the memorial scene without its name on the wall and the platform not in the scene.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Aug 28, 2019 11:36:08 GMT
You're being sold one thing and then you get something that isn't it. I assume the frustration would be the same. It's not lying. It's a plot twist, subversion of expectations. It's unsatisfying, but it's not lying. Yes. But overall you were fighting Respers and that was enough for me. Well, for some people it wasn't. And it doesn't make it an invalid complaint, just because you didn't have that complaint. Is the Cerberus/Reaper distinction all that rational? I don't know. One's a force of Eldritch Horrors, the other's a group of guys with logos on their shirts. I mean, it sounds like a distinction to me.
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Post by alanc9 on Aug 28, 2019 12:21:25 GMT
Point is, they're on the same side in the same war. Cerberus takes us away from the Reaper War to the extent that fighting the Japanese would take a US player away from WW2 in a Hearts of Iron game.
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Post by alanc9 on Aug 28, 2019 12:34:41 GMT
Because I wasn't expecting a "kind" of ending. I was expecting MANY endings. I expected endings where Shepard died heroically and saved everyone, and endings where Shepard lived in the ruins of a dying world. I expected endings where the Reapers were defeated but there were no more relays. I expected endings where the Reapers were defeated, but remained to threaten the galaxy once again. I expected my choices to mean more than a number. Last I checked, your choices did mean more than a number. Determining the fates of whole species isn't enough? As for the range of endings, we've got one where Shepard dies and saves no one, one where Shepard dies and saves a lot of the galaxy, one where Shepard lives and saves almost everyone, one where Shepard saves everyone, dies, and is replaced by a new entity who guides the galaxy in a manner consistent with Shepard's values, and one where Shepard saves everyone, dies, and transforms all life in the galaxy. Not the outcomes you expected, but I don't see how this range of outcomes is smaller than the range you expected. And a guy who wants to project that he has a problem with an insufficient number of endings should probably spend less time denouncing Refuse.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 28, 2019 12:41:16 GMT
Uh huh. How does your crew know Anderson died? No one told them. Only person who knows is Shepard, because he saw him die. I have my doubts on that scene. And how does the guy know the details about what happened on the Citadel if all are dead? Only one survives, Shepard. Shepard tells the first story that is passed down to others who tell the story and so on and so on.
Good question about Anderson one that I've asked many times. How would they know Anderson and even Shepard are dead? How much time has past from when the crucible fired to the memorial scene? One scenario I posted is that someone from C-Sec, possibly Bailey finds Shepard's body while another finds Anderson's body. He call's Hackett to inform him that Anderson is dead and that Shepard is dead/alive. Hackett then forwards the message to the Normandy. Of course that scenario is only for the red. What about the blue and green? If anything, Shepard should be MIA.
As far as the edibot being destroyed by Harbinger. Here's it being destroyed
And here is the memorial scene without its name on the wall and the platform not in the scene. However, in two of the ending scenarios, there is no body of Shepard's to find. Technically, he/she would be MIA (presumed dead). The point at which a service takes place, if at all, depends then on the point the family gives up hope of finding the victim alive. Anderson's body could be found by Bailey (or other people who managed to stay alive without leaving the Citadel) or found by a crew sent up from earth to investigate the status of the Citadel. Upon finding Anderson and not finding anything of Shepard, they would make the MIA (presumed dead) call based on Hackett's knowledge (through comms) that Anderson and Shepard were together near that console near the end.
Similarly, not placing the plaque on the Memorial Wall really doesn't say that the LI knows for certain that Shepard is alive or dead. It really just says they are holding onto hope that he/she is still alive.
The amount of time elapsed before the Memorial Wall scene is unclear. It's only the mods (like the Happy Ending one) that try to say it happens soon after since Shepard is shown still showing the signs of the injuries he/she sustained during the final battle. It seems clear that it takes place before the Normandy flies off the planet it crashed on... but it could have taken a long time to repair the Normandy so it could fly again.
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Post by Iakus on Aug 28, 2019 12:50:34 GMT
Because I wasn't expecting a "kind" of ending. I was expecting MANY endings. I expected endings where Shepard died heroically and saved everyone, and endings where Shepard lived in the ruins of a dying world. I expected endings where the Reapers were defeated but there were no more relays. I expected endings where the Reapers were defeated, but remained to threaten the galaxy once again. I expected my choices to mean more than a number. Last I checked, your choices did mean more than a number. Determining the fates of whole species isn't enough? No More further in. False False Questionable at best. [/quote]There are ultimately three endings: Shepard dies and commits genocide taking the Reapers with him/her (with one easter egg where "maybe" Shepard lives.) Shepard dies and a new AI is created that enslaves the galaxy with the Reapers. Shepard dies and infects the galaxy with his/her green space juice and forcibly transforms anyone in the galaxy into a new Master Race. And EC gives a fourth: Shepard takes a principled stand, dies, and so does everyone else.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Aug 28, 2019 13:00:12 GMT
Yet, you like ME2, which is the game that diverted away from the Reaper plot. So, in your analogy, ME2 would be the equivalent of that theoretical first half of an ME:A2 game... only ME2 didn't get you back to the Reaper plot for even half the game. All it did was show you a datapad with Reapers on it and, if you bought the Arrival DLC, let you talk to a Reaper for a single conversation. I wasn't fighting the Reaper War in ME2. That wasn't the promise made to me. So I don't see your point. The promise of the Reaper War was made with ME3. You know, fight for Earth, take Earth back and stuff.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 28, 2019 13:07:54 GMT
Yet, you like ME2, which is the game that diverted away from the Reaper plot. So, in your analogy, ME2 would be the equivalent of that theoretical first half of an ME:A2 game... only ME2 didn't get you back to the Reaper plot for even half the game. All it did was show you a datapad with Reapers on it and, if you bought the Arrival DLC, let you talk to a Reaper for a single conversation. I wasn't fighting the Reaper War in ME2. That wasn't the promise made to me. So I don't see your point. The promise of the Reaper War was made with ME3. You know, fight for Earth, take Earth back and stuff. The promise made to you at the end of ME1 was that Shepard was going to continue to find a way to stop the Reapers. Chasing off to stop the Collectors from kidnapping human colonies does not constitute finding a way to stop the Reaper until more than halfway through the game when it is discovered that the Collectors are Reaper drones. TIM has nothing to offer Shepard during that initial conversation except blatant speculation "IF they're working with the Reapers... blah, blah, blah). No proof of them working with the Reapers is found on Freedom's Progress. There is no reason why Shepard shouldn't walk away from TIM at that point per their conversation... having not found the proof he/she needed.
The only difference is you want to rationalize it because you like ME2... which was my point. In ME3, there are several hints early in the game that Cerberus agents are being changed into husks and that TIM is indoctrinated. Those hints get stronger throughout the game. In ME3, there is little mention of Cerberus' ideals as we understood them to be in ME2. It's just Bioware, substituting in Reaper drones to avoid a constant stream of Reaper boss fights... exactly the same game development philosophy they used in ME2. ME2 clearly sets up the notion that a modus operandi of the Reapers is to change the species it is harvesting into versions of themselves and use them to fight their wars for them. "The Collectors are Protheans." That's exactly what we are shown is being done with humans in ME3.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Aug 28, 2019 13:10:13 GMT
Point is, they're on the same side in the same war. Cerberus seeks to Control the Reapers and overrule the Council to establish a human supremacy. They're not fighting for the Reapers, but both against the Council races and the Reapers. Whether TIM is indoctrinated and ultimately won't doesn't change the fact that its just some suited guys with an orange logo. Not what I signed up for, but feel free to mask it under whatever pretense suits your narrative. Just don't get mad when I don't subscribe under it.
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Post by themikefest on Aug 28, 2019 13:26:01 GMT
However, in two of the ending scenarios, there is no body of Shepard's to find. Technically, he/she would be MIA (presumed dead). Missing in action does not mean presumed dead. Until a body is found, Shepard is currently missing in action. But then again look at what happened in ME2. The Alliance believes Shepard is dead without any confirmation. If they're able to put up the nameplate, then they know for certain Shepard is dead just as they know for certain Anderson is dead for his nameplate to be on the wall. So what's with the hesitation? With the cut, and ems above 2600, the SR2 suffers minor damage that once they walk around the ship, they give a thumbs up that they're able to leave. With ems below 2600, and before the cut, the SR2 suffered extensive damage with the thrusters seen being torn from the fuselage. They do not have the parts to fix the ship to leave. How long they're stuck on the planet? Depends on how long it takes for help to get to their location.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 28, 2019 13:45:01 GMT
However, in two of the ending scenarios, there is no body of Shepard's to find. Technically, he/she would be MIA (presumed dead). Missing in action does not mean presumed dead. Until a body is found, Shepard is currently missing in action. But then again look at what happened in ME2. The Alliance believes Shepard is dead without any confirmation. If they're able to put up the nameplate, then they know for certain Shepard is dead just as they know for certain Anderson is dead for his nameplate to be on the wall. So what's with the hesitation? With the cut, and ems above 2600, the SR2 suffers minor damage that once they walk around the ship, they give a thumbs up that they're able to leave. With ems below 2600, and before the cut, the SR2 suffered extensive damage with the thrusters seen being torn from the fuselage. They do not have the parts to fix the ship to leave. How long they're stuck on the planet? Depends on how long it takes for help to get to their location. The presumption of death in absentia is the legal term for it. Concise explantion per Wikipedia: "A person may be legally declared dead in absentia, i.e. a legal presumption of death may be declared, despite the absence of direct proof of the person's death, such as the finding of remains (e.g., a corpse or skeleton) attributable to that person. Such a declaration is typically made when a person has been missing for an extended period of time and in the absence of any evidence that the person is still alive – or after a much shorter period but where the circumstances surrounding a person's disappearance overwhelmingly support the belief that the person has died (e.g., an airplane crash)." This is likely what the Alliance did when Shepard went missing in ME2. The LI putting the plaque on the Memorial Wall is not proof of life or death... just an indication of what they hope at that point.
As for Anderson, the crew may have a clear idea that Anderson is dead because he died before that final comms conversation between Hackett and Shepard. From Shepard's obvious weakness during that last comms, it is possible for them to also hold the belief that Shepard was doomed to die at that point... meaning the circumstances were sufficient to declare him/her "dead in abasentia."
The damage you see to the ship may be irrelevant... depending on how you answer the question regarding how thoroughly EDI's processes are now dispersed throughout the ship... keeping in mind she has also been altering her core programming throughout ME3. Even with minimal visual damage, the ship might take some time to be able to fly again. It's a variable deliberately left vague so as to suit whatever the player wants to believe (dependent on the choices they make).
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Post by SirSourpuss on Aug 28, 2019 13:53:01 GMT
The promise made to you at the end of ME1 was that Shepard was going to continue to find a way to stop the Reapers He blew up a cluster, stopped their minions that were abducting people throughout Alliance space and killed a would be fully operational Reaper that who knows what it would be able to do, had it been allowed to become fully operational. I think it held up its side of the bargain. Chasing off to stop the Collectors from kidnapping human colonies does not constitute finding a way to stop the Reaper until more than halfway through the game when it is discovered that the Collectors are Reaper drones. TIM has nothing to offer Shepard during that initial conversation except blatant speculation "IF they're working with the Reapers... blah, blah, blah). No proof of them working with the Reapers is found on Freedom's Progress. There is no reason why Shepard shouldn't walk away from TIM at that point per their conversation... having not found the proof he/she needed. Is your argument that we shouldn't be trying to figure out stuff? Like, is the information supposed to land on us? Are the Collectors supposed to parade around the galaxy with a "We work for the Reapers" sign on the ship? Should my problem be that the game isn't stupid? I don't understand the argument. The only difference is you want to rationalize it because you like ME2... which was my point. In ME3, there are several hints early in the game that Cerberus agents are being changed into husks and that TIM is indoctrinated They don't behave like Reaper units, they don't look like Reaper units. They fight like humans and look like humans. You're fighting humans.
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Post by themikefest on Aug 28, 2019 14:13:58 GMT
The presumption of death in absentia is the legal term for it. Concise explantion per Wikipedia: "A person may be legally declared dead in absentia, i.e. a legal presumption of death may be declared, despite the absence of direct proof of the person's death, such as the finding of remains (e.g., a corpse or skeleton) attributable to that person. Such a declaration is typically made when a person has been missing for an extended period of time and in the absence of any evidence that the person is still alive – or after a much shorter period but where the circumstances surrounding a person's disappearance overwhelmingly support the belief that the person has died (e.g., an airplane crash)." Until Bioware says how much time as passed from when the crucible fired to when the memorial scene happened, I will stick with MIA. If the scene takes place a day or longer, then yes, I would agree with the presumed dead part Unfortunately the asari didn't inform anyone that Shepard's body was in the hands of Cerberus. Hope? So putting the nameplate on the wall means hope? Wouldn't the hesitation mean they hope that Shepard is alive? How would they know Anderson is dead before Hackett came online? Just because Shepard is in a weakened state doesn't mean she/he will die. And from what they've seen Shepard do previously, death would likely be the furthest thing from their minds.
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