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Post by alanc9 on Nov 4, 2019 16:51:35 GMT
That isn't how it works. From the Codex, itals mine: Anyway, since drift is measured in the hundreds or millions of kilometers, the chance of collision would be infinitesimal even if relative positions weren't maintained. Interesting. Although sending waves of ships through in rapid succession is still asking for trouble. It's a pity it doesn't work the way you thought it did. Honestly, it's like the designers read Niven and Pournelle's piece on how to design SF techs so space empires can actually work, and then implemented the exact opposite.
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Post by alanc9 on Nov 4, 2019 16:54:14 GMT
There's nothing stopping people from interpreting it that way though and nothing stopping people from interpreting it to be real, just as there's nothing stopping people from interpreting the catalyst as lying. Very true. People can interpret it any way they choose. Although the EC does impose some limits on interpretation. Killing unintended/unfortunate interpretations seems to have been the design intent for the EC. Although OTOH it's not clear that Bio actually had a coherent internal interpretation pre-EC, so maybe the "unintended" part of that isn't true.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 4, 2019 17:27:30 GMT
Like TIM wasn't telling Shepard to kill himself by suckering him into a "suicide mission?" Shepard was "free" to walk away at any point. And by "free" I mean probably not free at all. Because ultimately TIM wanted the base. What about the exploding tanks in many of the warehouses in ME1? The very definition of environmental hazard, yes. Did you consider that Hackett was continually sending Shepard off to "kill himself" on those missions? I mean, it kinda goes with the job. It is quite likely that some people in some missions actually won't return. Some times that includes one's self. It's why it's the military and not the carebear squad. At least Starkid warned Shepard about the hazards Yes, absolutely. Hackett and TIM didn't even bother to mention the multitude of actual environmental hazards Shepard faced during their missions - Heat, Cold, noxious gases, lava pools... and lots and lots of stuff that would explode if shot at. You can assume them. Some of them. A half complete Human Reaper, though? Not in a million years. Like I said, it's the job. And you do the job because you picked the job for various reasons pertaining to your enlistment. Does enlistment pertain to you being dicked around by a millennia old AI that has been the harbinger of destruction for so many other galactic civilizations? If the AI shows compelling evidence as to its honesty and willingness to collaborate, then sure. Otherwise, not so much. TIM was apparently trying pretty hard to get Shepard killed before getting anywhere near the basis... but NOOOO, you'll only credit Starkid with that desire because it suits your personal interpretation of everything. LMAO
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Post by Iakus on Nov 4, 2019 17:30:25 GMT
Very true. People can interpret it any way they choose. Although the EC does impose some limits on interpretation . Killing unintended/unfortunate interpretations seems to have been the design intent for the EC. Although OTOH it's not clear that Bio actually had a coherent internal interpretation pre-EC, so maybe the "unintended" part of that isn't true. Funny how EC shored up some of the more unfortunate implications.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Nov 4, 2019 17:33:35 GMT
TIM was apparently trying pretty hard to get Shepard killed before getting anywhere near the basis... Absolutely. But he brought us back to life for a purpose that did involve, among other things, the possibility of our death. Which is why he places Miranda with us, as he trusts her explicitly to keep us alive. As well as to keep us in check. For as long as he needs us, at least, which ends with the retrieval, or not, of the Collector base. but NOOOO, you'll only credit Starkid with that desire because it suits your personal interpretation of everything. LMAO LMAOOOOO fuck my arguments, am I right? XD
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Post by burningcherry on Nov 4, 2019 17:55:16 GMT
Which doesn't change much unless EDI managed to disable the signal and figure out every detail of how the device works so that it doesn't, for example, cause the ship to explode after the transmit. I can believe it happened off-screen but it's my good will. Or it existed before for keeper purposes. There was also a platform for Shepard to reach the green beam and a convenient blue interface. Who did place those? And lets assume arguendo the odds of Starkid lying are overwhelming. The potential payoff if Starkid is not lying is more overwhelming. We've got a few more years of life for the people on Earth vs. uncounted millennia of life for trillions. That's a huge, HUGE gamble you are about to make, without a real basis. Like, that's saying, if I sink 30k in the next lottery and the reward is 900k, but 30k is all my money and that only gives me a, like 25% chance of victory, then yeah, the payoff could be huge, but it's more likely I just lost all my money. I'd have to be stupid to make that bet. Especially when simply asking Starkid for some proof of evidence costs us nothing. Even if the answer is negative, at least it will need to be believably negative. The difference is that if you don't take the bet, you're dead and so is everyone, as the Refuse ending shows and we all know.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Nov 4, 2019 18:05:49 GMT
Which doesn't change much unless EDI managed to disable the signal and figure out every detail of how the device works so that it doesn't, for example, cause the ship to explode after the transmit. I can believe it happened off-screen but it's my good will. It's a little far fetched to expect a identification beacon thingy to explode. Unless it was jerry rigged to explode upon tampering. Which, I have to admit, I wouldn't expect. In which case, I'd be a dead mother fucker. Or it existed before for keeper purposes. There was also a platform for Shepard to reach the green beam and a convenient blue interface. Who did place those? So your logic is that Starkid created these on the Citadel at some point, perhaps hundreds of thousand of years ago, so that when a civilization would create the Crucible, that would require to be locked onto the Citadel and the Crucible would be damaged enough to be inoperable on its own, a single organic, that would have to fight an immeasurable number of Reaper forces and would get nearly obliterated by a beam that completely blasted off his armour, would climb up and commit suicide on one of three possible kill switches that would defeat its own creations? That is a little bit more complex a plan that I would have liked. The difference is that if you don't take the bet, you're dead and so is everyone, as the Refuse ending shows and we all know. Can't we ask for a cease fire? Like, it is a pretty big decision we're asked to make. If the Starkid is indeed honest and even at the worst case scenario, where only the Destroy option is available, we got it by the balls. Surely we can parley for a better solution, right?
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Post by alanc9 on Nov 4, 2019 18:20:55 GMT
Words have meanings, last time I checked. A script isn't an outline, and an outline isn't an idea. In general, it's a best practice to use the word which refers to the thing you're talking about rather than a word which means something else. I leave it to you. OK. The correct word was "idea." One idea of several, as it happens. We talk about this idea more than the other ideas which didn't make it into the released ME3 since they dropped a couple of bread crumbs for the dark energy idea into ME2. But the dark energy plot was always just another candidate; it never had any privileged status within Bio. I'm having trouble determining if you are consciously lying about my positions for rhetorical purposes, or are simply incapable of understanding written language. I have never said the italed. Nothing even close. (Also, the elevator thing was mentioned by somebody else too.) And "take with a grain of salt" doesn't mean "completely disbelieve." I am perfectly willing to take the Catalyst's information with a grain of salt. But that doesn't mean assuming that the probability of those statements being true is 0.00000000%. If that's the assumption you want to make, you should be using a different idiom. An additional toll in Reaper numbers is nice to have if vengeance is something you want, but it isn't of any practical use. It doesn't help Shepard's cycle, or any other. (The Reapers can start the harvest whenever they please assuming the Citadel is functioning correctly, so a few less Reapers won't help the next cycle beat them.) And "more sense" is the wrong metric. Given that the payout for not using the Crucible is essentially zero, the probability of being able to use it has to be almost infinitely small to make refusing to use it make strategic sense. At this point Shepard's life is worthless, and the allied fleets aren't much more valuable. You need to stop bringing up "not having the option to question" when discussing the released game. It has no meaning in-universe. I brought up conventional victory because you seem to keep assigning a non-zero value to just letting the fleets fight it out. That means their certain destruction a little sooner than would otherwise happen, plus the destruction of a handful of Reapers. While not quite of zero value, we're into rounding-error territory here. So I thought that's where you might be going with this. I should have been more explicit. If the Catalyst really can lie at will, why is he telling you what he is? The reason you don't trust him is because of stuff that he told you. *shrugs"* Sure. I just think that muddling up game design arguments and RP arguments is intellectually confused. Sometimes you try to make both kinds of argument in the same paragraph. The Catalyst can't make mistakes? Anyway, we can come up with other solutions to this design hypothetical if you like, but I'm not sure that the exercise is useful, since such a version of ME3 will never exist. Yes, it is OK. I've thought this stuff through, and you refuse to. I mean, it'd have been nice if the game had held your hand a little more, sure. Yep. Huge gamble. But either side of that bet is a huge gamble. Believing that the Catalyst is lying is placing a massive bet on the galaxy being doomed no matter what Shepard does, so the only thing left is to settle for a few more dead Reapers and maybe a bit of a moral victory. Shepard doesn't get to simply not play. He's there, and nobody else is. You're using a bad metaphor there. The problem is that losing 30K when it's all you have is a significant downside risk. A slightly better metaphor might be only having $1 and buying one ticket with it. That $1 won't keep you from starving for long, but winning might. (Still not a great metaphor; maybe the ticket needs to cost a penny.) And, again, you're muddling up RP and design issues. We can't base Shepard's decision-making on a hypothetical response to questions Shepard can't ask. That's a profoundly stupid hypothetical, and you know it. No such version of ME3 would ever have existed; the designers wouldn't add the question in order to answer it that way. "Convenient" is not a sensible objection to a plot event in Mass Effect. Convenient things happen all the time in Mass Effect. If you had an actual problem with that you wouldn't have gotten past ME1. And who said that the Catalyst has any ability to manifest, communicate, or probe anywhere but the room Shepard encounters him in? Those dreams were just dreams. Huh? Why on earth do you think that Starkid would have had to have put that programming limitation on itself? It didn't write its own programming.
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Post by burningcherry on Nov 4, 2019 18:21:01 GMT
Which doesn't change much unless EDI managed to disable the signal and figure out every detail of how the device works so that it doesn't, for example, cause the ship to explode after the transmit. I can believe it happened off-screen but it's my good will. It's a little far fetched to expect a identification beacon thingy to explode. Unless it was jerry rigged to explode upon tampering. Which, I have to admit, I wouldn't expect. In which case, I'd be a dead mother fucker. Explode, fry the systems with EMP and leave the ship sitting duck, whatever. I was a bit ironic: those structures couldn't be there since ever and we never learn what's their origin. I always imagined moving mobile or environment parts but I may be trying to find intent where there's none. Yes if it has some direct controls over the Reapers. I'm not sure about this and Shepard is not enough inquisitive. But I'm sure that if a question existed, the answer would be that is hasn't.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Nov 4, 2019 18:28:26 GMT
I'm having trouble determining if you are consciously lying about my positions for rhetorical purposes, or are simply incapable of understanding written language. I have never said the italed. Nothing even close. (Also, the elevator thing was mentioned by somebody else too.) And "take with a grain of salt" doesn't mean "completely disbelieve." I am perfectly willing to take the Catalyst's information with a grain of salt. But that doesn't mean assuming that the probability of those statements being true is 0.00000000%. If that's the assumption you want to make, you should be using a different idiom. The point is that you imply the Starkid is being honest, to which I argue that there is greater likelihood he isn't. But I don't get to express my disbelief. You're using a bad metaphor there. The problem is that losing 30K when it's all you have is a significant downside risk. A slightly better metaphor might be only having $1 and buying one ticket with it. That $1 won't keep you from starving for long, but winning might. (Still not a great metaphor; maybe the ticket needs to cost a penny.) And, again, you're muddling up RP and design issues. We can't base Shepard's decision-making on a hypothetical response to questions Shepard can't ask. And this is a problem in the narrative of the entire segment. It is a glaring omission. That's a profoundly stupid hypothetical, and you know it. No such version of ME3 would ever have existed; the designers wouldn't add the question in order to answer it that way. Yes, it is an exaggeration. "Convenient" is not a sensible objection to a plot event in Mass Effect. Convenient things happen all the time in Mass Effect. If you had an actual problem with that you wouldn't have gotten past ME1. And I did say I would accept it. And who said that the Catalyst has any ability to manifest, communicate, or probe anywhere but the room Shepard encounters him in? Those dreams were just dreams. I never implied that, nor did I reference the dreams. But the ability to probe minds indicates a very advanced communicative device, one that makes me skeptical of whether the Starkid would really be that incapable of communicating with the Reapers, should in a hypothetical scenario where we would be able to ask the question, receive that as an answer. Huh? Why on earth do you think that Starkid would have had to have put that programming limitation on itself? It didn't write its own programming. Exactly.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Nov 4, 2019 18:34:37 GMT
Explode, fry the systems with EMP and leave the ship sitting duck, whatever Possible. I'd expected the technicians that installed it would have found such mechanism, unless it was that alien that ... how did we even know what it is to begin with, in that case? I was a bit ironic: those structures couldn't be there since ever and we never learn what's their origin. I always imagined moving mobile or environment parts but I may be trying to find intent where there's none. Understandable. Yes if it has some direct controls over the Reapers. I'm not sure about this and Shepard is not enough inquisitive. But I'm sure that if a question existed, the answer would be that is hasn't. True, a negative response is quite valid. It's the lack of the question, more so, that troubles me. I mean, it's the AI that created the Reapers, ffs and we take it at its word. I do understand that it is indeed honest with us, but it would not be my first thought when meeting it.
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Post by alanc9 on Nov 4, 2019 21:32:49 GMT
Although the EC does impose some limits on interpretation . Killing unintended/unfortunate interpretations seems to have been the design intent for the EC. Although OTOH it's not clear that Bio actually had a coherent internal interpretation pre-EC, so maybe the "unintended" part of that isn't true. Funny how EC shored up some of the more unfortunate implications. I guess those are the ones the devs genuinely intended.
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Post by alanc9 on Nov 4, 2019 22:18:14 GMT
The point is that you imply the Starkid is being honest, to which I argue that there is greater likelihood he isn't. But I don't get to express my disbelief. I'm not sure if it's sloppy language or sloppy thinking -- I've seen you engage in both -- but saying that something is possibly true isn't the same as saying that it is true, full stop. I'm doing the former, but you keep saying that I'm doing the latter. One of the reasons we keep going in circles is that you keep posting lies. Well, you've proved that you can write something worse than what we got. Congratulations. Other than that, it was pointless. What's the point of this, again? That having a working mind scanner implies having a working radio? I'm not too invested in this, though, since I would go the programming-limitation route rather than physical inability, as long as we're talking fantasy rewrites. So you're admitting that your own objection was invalid? Or have you forgotten what we were talking about already?
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Post by Deleted on Nov 4, 2019 23:54:04 GMT
TIM was apparently trying pretty hard to get Shepard killed before getting anywhere near the basis... Absolutely. But he brought us back to life for a purpose that did involve, among other things, the possibility of our death. Which is why he places Miranda with us, as he trusts her explicitly to keep us alive. As well as to keep us in check. For as long as he needs us, at least, which ends with the retrieval, or not, of the Collector base. but NOOOO, you'll only credit Starkid with that desire because it suits your personal interpretation of everything. LMAO LMAOOOOO fuck my arguments, am I right? XD LMAO and your running in circles with everyone on this thread... I really don't see any arguments you've made that are even really worth an eff.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 5, 2019 0:14:46 GMT
Very true. People can interpret it any way they choose. Although the EC does impose some limits on interpretation. Killing unintended/unfortunate interpretations seems to have been the design intent for the EC. Although OTOH it's not clear that Bio actually had a coherent internal interpretation pre-EC, so maybe the "unintended" part of that isn't true. It does and it doesn't... if you're going to dismiss the entire conversation with the Catalyst as a "vision" or "hallucination," then there's nothing preventing the player of considering all the EC slides as part of that "dream" as well... Shepard projecting what he/she thinks the results of his/her decision would be.
Any way you slice it though... it ends Sheapard's story... and Shepard's story should stay ended, IMO. It was a good ride.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 5, 2019 1:20:23 GMT
No, let's bring Shepard back for 5 more sequels or until every loose end is tied up.
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Post by jclosed on Nov 5, 2019 13:04:30 GMT
No, let's bring Shepard back for 5 more sequels or until every loose end is tied up. Tied up... Sounds masochistic to me..
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Post by SirSourpuss on Nov 5, 2019 13:17:56 GMT
I'm not sure if it's sloppy language or sloppy thinking -- I've seen you engage in both -- but saying that something is possibly true isn't the same as saying that it is true, full stop. I'm doing the former, but you keep saying that I'm doing the latter. One of the reasons we keep going in circles is that you keep posting lies. And you make an argument based on knowing what happens going forward. I am making an argument for Shepard, who has no way of knowing what happens going forward and the judgement call he makes, based on the information he has available, considering the source of that information. It's not a lie, but thank you for exposing me as a liar. Well, you've proved that you can write something worse than what we got. Congratulations. Other than that, it was pointless. That is along the lines of the hypothesis you posed. If you don't like the possible answer of such a hypothesis, then it wasn't a worthwhile hypothesis to begin with. What's the point of this, again? That having a working mind scanner implies having a working radio? I'm not too invested in this, though, since I would go the programming-limitation route rather than physical inability, as long as we're talking fantasy rewrites. No, it just makes it improbable to be true, increasing the dubiousness of the argument Starkid is trying to make. Maybe you don't agree with it, but personally, it would make me more suspicious. In any event, the point is to get the Starkid to perform something to tangibly prove its intentions. If we get a no at every turn, then it proves to Shepard that it is dishonest. So you're admitting that your own objection was invalid? Or have you forgotten what we were talking about already? No, I have not. But it looks like you did. That just proves that there is logically nothing stopping Starkid from making the effort. Which further begs the question of why doesn't Shepard?
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Post by SirSourpuss on Nov 5, 2019 13:23:24 GMT
LMAO and your running in circles with everyone on this thread... I really don't see any arguments you've made that are even really worth an eff. Debunk them, then. Unless the argument is debunked, then it remains valid. That you are not willing to make the effort is as good as not being able to. You miss 100% of the shots you didn't take.
Oh, right. I forgot. You tried twice and then gave me two endorsements for a MEOT sequel.
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Post by gothpunkboy89 on Nov 5, 2019 16:08:31 GMT
But I have not been saying it I didn't say you did. So trying to force words into my mouth that I did not say and did not mean undermines your entire argument. I did not try, nor was it my intention. You aren't even talking about what I say Exactly. You are ignoring everything I say and inventing an entire argument in your own mind and arguing with yourself I am not ignoring you. I am merely presenting a different problem which you do not address. You are free not to, but I am free to. As for on Rannoch the only terrible part about it was the rule of 3 hits to win the fight. The actual idea was fine but the hit it 3 times while dodge rolling blasts that become harder and harder to avoid as it gets closer was bad So, it was a bad implementation. But still, not very exciting. It wasn't engaging, but rather frustrating. And I can't feasibly see a Reaper battle go any other way, since we can't harm them conventionally. Then again ME2's shoot the proto reaper in the eye while hiding behind a 3 foot tall wall that can absorb eye blasts that literally disintegrate organic bodies was also pretty stupid But it was more engaging and if you had the Cain, it was over pretty quickly. Far better than the Rannoch fight. Which continues with Andromeda and the Architecture things and the final fight with the Archon. Safe to say Mass Effect doesn't handle bosses very well. Absolutely. I had a problem with Metal Cooler, I mean Mecha Saren in ME1, as well. The series probably could continue on without the Reapers but the very meh reaction the Kett have gotten tells you it isn't as easy to replace the Reapers and what they stand for and what they bring to the table of exciting enemies were you are rightfully put in the underdog position I disagree. Andromeda was a terrible idea. Or a terrible execution of a good idea. On paper, at least. We could have great antagonists. They don't need to be "big" in order for ME to succeed. Arguably, in your proposed ME: Uncharted, the antagonists wouldn't be the Reapers. At least, for that title. We could try this approach about a diverse group of space explorers going planet to planet and doing whatever. It'd be fun. For the Reapers it isn't a matter of if they win it is a matter of when will they win and the fight against that count down clock to try and find some way to stop them Irrefutable. For the Kett the only reason they do not win is plot conveniences and plot armor. You won't see me arguing there, either. Because while the Reapers are facing the combined might of all the races of the galaxy and are able to brush them aside the Kett are fighting the scattered and destroyed Angara who don't even have a real planet to call their own just hidden out posts and colonies and the pretty much unarmed Initiative. The introduction of Forerunners I mean Jardaan didn't do much for me either. Same here. But this has all shifted away from your original topic. Reapers were going to be the over arching enemy of the series. Mass Effect 2 did nothing to add to that over all story line. Collectors added nothing new and the entire plan to start to build a Reaper by attacking colonies makes no sense. No, that was the B Plan; make a new Reaper and try to make another break for the Citadel. The whole dark energy theory that some like to point to is literally a couple of lines of dialogue with 0 development beyond those couple of lines that could be easily removed without altering the game at all. And Drew was going to play it up in the next game. Foreshadowing.
Yes you did.
Middle game has to continue the story and the Reapers were the primary antagonist regardless of what you might want to think And ME2 failed to add to the story
3 lines that can be deleted without effecting anything doesn't foreshadowing make.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Nov 5, 2019 16:24:46 GMT
Middle game has to continue the story and the Reapers were the primary antagonist regardless of what you might want to think And ME2 failed to add to the story I'd argue that ME2 doesn't have to. It doesn't have to do anything. The idea that you cling to the Crucible as the only idea to solve the Reaper problem going forward, shows how close minded your perception of writing is. You can write anything and write it however you want. There is no rule for having Crucibles as your end all solutions to problems, there is no narrative rule that says episode two has to present the solution to a problem. The possibilities are endless and yet you cling to the one that Mac Walters chose, like it is gospel, even after the damage it did to the franchise. Shifting the discovery of the Crucible to ME2, would still end up with the same ending and the same fanbase divide regardless, because Mac came up with the idea, 3 days prior to the game hitting gold, after wasting 6 months trying to figure it out, as per "The Final Hours of Mass Effect 3". Displacing the Crucible earlier you change the Mars mission alone, has no guarantee that Priority: Earth would be made any better, as is your intention and Mac would waste the same amount of time trying to figure out the ending. All you've accomplished, is most likely making a less well received ME2, as achieving a ~95% metacritic average across the three platforms it released on is hard to match.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 5, 2019 17:15:38 GMT
This image shows just how big the Reapers are compared to real life objects. Do you really think you'd be able to take all of them on with the technology you have? Not a chance. Some kind of magic wand would be required to defeat all of them.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Nov 5, 2019 17:17:36 GMT
This image shows just how big the Reapers are compared to real life objects. Do you really think you'd be able to take all of them on with the technology you have? Not a chance. I never implied that.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 5, 2019 17:18:58 GMT
You sure don't like the idea of the Crucible, but without something like it, you are sitting ducks.
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Post by Son of Dorn on Nov 5, 2019 17:20:29 GMT
This image shows just how big the Reapers are compared to real life objects. Do you really think you'd be able to take all of them on with the technology you have? Not a chance. Give me an Imperial Navy Fleet, a Super Heavy Tank regiment of Shadowswords, a lighter and a box of cigars. They'll stand no chance! 😁
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