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Post by SirSourpuss on Feb 12, 2020 13:08:02 GMT
I notice you didn't really try to make a positive case for more Shepard there. Trying to show that other options are bad is the easy part. Ever heard of the elimination process? If every other option is worse, then the path of least resistance is preferable. If you have another proposition that doesn't get bundled up in the aforementioned categories, feel free to pitch it in.
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Post by alanc9 on Feb 12, 2020 16:20:14 GMT
That only works if the remaining option is actually better than the ones you're eliminating because you say they have problems. If you don't actually do the work on an option, you can make it survive the elimination even though it shouldn't have.
It's OK to not have an actual positive case for more Shepard but you should at least try to explain why its negatives aren't as bad as they seem to be
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Post by KaiserShep on Feb 12, 2020 16:59:03 GMT
fter the Reapers anything Shepard does will feel anticlimactic. I want a fresh new protagonist with a fresh new perspective. Wasn't that exactly what people got with Andromeda? Did it not fail spectacularly? At least Anthem got the Cataclysm update and a couple of seasonal updates. Andromeda got a patch. And a book! But what is this really arguing? That a new protagonist and setting, regardless of quality, is simply doomed to poor reception and sales on that alone? Is the fanbase so saturated with stupid babies, that can only be pacified with a specific binky, so numerous and influential that the creative team are essentially shackled to the whims of their fickleness? If so, then perhaps Mass Effect is fucked, caught in a death loop of creative bankruptcy, and best left to finally die its final death. Now, I can actually see EA making this sort of consideration, that fans aren't necessarily concerned for substance so long as they can exploit that nostalgia factor, and we're dumb sheep that'll buy their shit and congratulate them for actually publishing a game that isn't laden with their normal predatory monetization schemes (all while they also congratulate themselves in masturbatory fashion). They can bring Shepard back, because Shepard is an icon they can recycle and repackage and charge us extra to contrive its continued existence. The question though is whether or not this result is actually *good* as a game. Trouble with these arguments about bringing Shepard back really comes down to Shepard being well-liked, thus misconstrued as a necessary component of a greater universe, much like those dumbass fans that think Halo should never exist in any form without Master Chief as its central figure. If I substitute the breadcrumbs in a meat loaf with manure, it'll probably still look good coming out of the oven, but I'm fairly confident in what its effect will be on the palette.
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Post by alanc9 on Feb 12, 2020 17:59:46 GMT
But what is this really arguing? That a new protagonist and setting, regardless of quality, is simply doomed to poor reception and sales on that alone? Is the fanbase so saturated with stupid babies, that can only be pacified with a specific binky, so numerous and influential that the creative team are essentially shackled to the whims of their fickleness? Ummm... you've met this fanbase, right? Anyway, as I read the proposal, it's not really about the fans. My take on it was that while Shepard returning is actually less popular with the fans than Shepard not returning -- we're the ones who know about the awful compromises which bringing Shepard back would necessarily force upon the devs -- there exists some sort of critical mass of semi-casuals who kinda sorta remember Shepard but don't really care about the series enough to mind those compromises. IOW, ME is sort of where the Battlestar Galactica IP was in the 90s, with lots of people who remember it with some degree of fondness, but relatively few actual fans. (Remember, while sirpetrakus' proposals haven't changed much over the last few months, the rationale for them has shifted.) Frankly, I'm skeptical that there are going to be that many gamers in this set by 2026 or thereabouts. And if there are, the logical answer is to do a BSG-style reboot. No sense losing more of the fans than you have to. However, note that the BSG reboot actually did lose a fair percentage of Original Recipe BSG fans. In retrospect, I think this was an early example of the liberal/conservative cultural polarization that we've seen in other genre fanbases lately.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Feb 12, 2020 22:37:09 GMT
But what is this really arguing? That a new protagonist and setting, regardless of quality, is simply doomed to poor reception and sales on that alone? Is the fanbase so saturated with stupid babies, that can only be pacified with a specific binky, so numerous and influential that the creative team are essentially shackled to the whims of their fickleness? You can say that, sure. You can reduce it to a narrative that belittles the fans, but recent memory proves this isn't a good tactic. On the other hand, you can call it love, dedication, admiration, passion. You generally want your franchise to be healthy, you need the fanbase to be solid, you need good word of mouth and good will. How much of those does Bioware have right now? If these things don't matter, as you claim and it all comes down to fans being just that gosh darn dumb, why are we still getting Batman comics with Bruce Wayne? What happened to Riri Williams' Ironheart? Why is Tony Stark back? And yes, Riri has a two-part coming in 2020, but Tony Stark is back as Iron Man, who had been replaced by Riri. Why does Halo keep coming back to Master Chief? Why is CD-Project Red returning to The Witcher? Because it's what the people want, because it sells and because a company's main goal is to make money, to keep people employed and to move product. Does that mean that Mass Effect is stuck to Shepard forever? What if I told you no? Because I do believe there is a future for Mass Effect without Shepard. I just can't see it happening now. Ryder 2.0 and Andromeda 2 will just get people ready for the next "my face is tired" meme. That game will be dead before it hits the shelves. But you can use the old to introduce the new. It's going to be tough, it's going to take time, there will be failures along the way, but you need to give people a transitive period. If you're to change too much, too fast, people will reject it, as they did with Andromeda. You can argue that they didn't, but it's the only game Bioware has made in 13 years now that got no support, other than a patch or two and no DLC. Even Anthem enjoyed more support than Andromeda, so something definitely went wrong there, even if we don't have all the data for it. If so, then perhaps Mass Effect is fucked, caught in a death loop of creative bankruptcy, and best left to finally die its final death. Perhaps that would be a preferable fate, at this point. But Bioware can't afford to let it die. There's also the problem if whether EA can afford to keep it alive, but that is a conversation for another time. Now, I can actually see EA making this sort of consideration, that fans aren't necessarily concerned for substance so long as they can exploit that nostalgia factor, and we're dumb sheep that'll buy their shit and congratulate them for actually publishing a game that isn't laden with their normal predatory monetization schemes (all while they also congratulate themselves in masturbatory fashion). They can bring Shepard back, because Shepard is an icon they can recycle and repackage and charge us extra to contrive its continued existence. The question though is whether or not this result is actually *good* as a game The implication that it can't be a good game, because they will bring Shepard back, is like saying the next [insert franchise here] will be back because they brought [iconic character] back. You can make it and you can sell it with or without [iconic character]. But not when the brand is damaged. Bob Iger put Star Wars movies on hiatus indefinitely, after the franchise collapse with the Sequel Trilogy and Terminator: Dark Fate put that franchise on ice, just like Andromeda put Mass Effect. Which means that at this point, you can't sell this franchises to the public, unless you do something drastic. Going for Andromeda 2 or a Milky Way Mass Effect, set 100 years after the Reaper War, or 1000 years after the Reaper War is just doing what you did last time and ignoring the problem. Which is begging a repetition of what Bioware got last time. At that point, yes, it is better to make a new franchise; you'll have a better time selling it. But if you want the franchise, if you want to keep it, you go back, you fix it, you make it whole and then you start making plans how to move on from there.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Feb 12, 2020 22:42:44 GMT
My take on it was that while Shepard returning is actually less popular with the fans than Shepard not returning I don't see where you get this idea from. For example, we've had many Captain Americas, many Batmen, but we always go back to Steve and Bruce. I can't see how it would be any different for Shepard. while sirpetrakus' proposals haven't changed much over the last few months, the rationale for them has shifted There are a plethora of rationales as to why the return to Shepard is not just a good move for the franchise currently, it is most likely the only good move left to the franchise. I'm multifaceted like that.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Feb 12, 2020 23:27:11 GMT
My take on it was that while Shepard returning is actually less popular with the fans than Shepard not returning I don't see where you get this idea from. For example, we've had many Captain Americas, many Batmen, but we always go back to Steve and Bruce. I can't see how it would be any different for Shepard. Yeah, in reboots and alternative universes. Is that what you are suggesting? That they get rid of all the Mass Effect games so they can do a new ‘ME1’ with ‘Shepard’?
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Post by SirSourpuss on Feb 12, 2020 23:34:12 GMT
Yeah, in reboots and alternative universes. Is that what you are suggesting? That they get rid of all the Mass Effect games so they can do a new ‘ME1’ with ‘Shepard’? No. Well, erasing something from the established canon might help, but no reboot. If the solution to the problem would be to delete everything established and redo it in a different way, that will most likely produce an inferior product to the one we had before, it is a fool proof way to outright kill Mass Effect once and for all. At that point, you are just better off putting a new coat of paint over it and call it Miss Affect; the brand new IP from Bioware.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Feb 12, 2020 23:38:41 GMT
Yeah, in reboots and alternative universes. Is that what you are suggesting? That they get rid of all the Mass Effect games so they can do a new ‘ME1’ with ‘Shepard’? No. Well, erasing something from the established canon might help, but no reboot. If the solution to the problem would be to delete everything established and redo it in a different way, that will most likely produce an inferior product to the one we had before, it is a fool proof way to outright kill Mass Effect once and for all. At that point, you are just better off putting a new coat of paint over it and call it Miss Affect; the brand new IP from Bioware. Then it’s nothing like the comic book characters you used to argue your point.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Feb 12, 2020 23:41:08 GMT
Then it’s nothing like the comic book characters you used to argue your point. I understand what you are getting at, but that is to argue the how, not the what. Which I am just going to take as you agree with the what, but are unsure as to how go about the how. Let others worry about that.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Feb 12, 2020 23:42:09 GMT
Then it’s nothing like the comic book characters you used to argue your point. I understand what you are getting at, but that is to argue the how, not the what. Which I am just going to take as you agree with the what, but are unsure as to how go about the how. Let others worry about that. No, I disagree with that what, who, where, when, why, and how of your proposal.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Feb 12, 2020 23:52:45 GMT
No, I disagree with that what, who, where, when, why, and how of your proposal. Then you canceled Mass Effect. Possibly Bioware as well, in the process. It's a good thing you're not in charge.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Feb 12, 2020 23:54:22 GMT
No, I disagree with that what, who, where, when, why, and how of your proposal. Then you canceled Mass Effect. Possibly Bioware as well, in the process. It's a good thing you're not in charge. I could say the exact same thing to you.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Feb 12, 2020 23:54:58 GMT
I could say the exact same thing to you. You could. Wouldn't make you right.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Feb 13, 2020 0:12:29 GMT
I could say the exact same thing to you. You could. Wouldn't make you right. Same to you.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Feb 13, 2020 0:18:12 GMT
It only took you 20 minutes to come up with that. I almost gave up. Maybe you'll convince someone, sometime.
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Post by smilesja on Feb 13, 2020 0:23:03 GMT
Shepard's story is done, I don't think Bioware will revisit Shepard in future games. Besides I prefer to play other protagonists.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Feb 13, 2020 0:24:58 GMT
Yeah. And the Chief's story was done at the end of Halo 3. He's been back how many times now? No one is ever really gone. Besides I prefer to play other protagonists. Plenty of other games out there, last I checked. Not many feature Shepard.
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Post by smilesja on Feb 13, 2020 0:36:51 GMT
Yeah. And the Chief's story was done at the end of Halo 3. He's been back how many times now? No one is ever really gone. Besides I prefer to play other protagonists. Plenty of other games out there, last I checked. Not many feature Shepard. For Chief it was pretty obvious that his story would continue if you watch the secret ending. And besides when I said other protagonists I meant for Mass Effect.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Feb 13, 2020 0:39:07 GMT
if you watch the secret ending The one where he breathes, while covered under a pile or rubble? Oh wait, that was the Mass Effect one. And besides when I said other protagonists I meant for Mass Effect. Really? Wow. What are the odds. Out of all the franchises, this is the one where there is currently a 75% chance that the title you'd be playing stars Shepard. How unlucky.
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Coronavirus
N3
Prince Charmless
I will save BioWare
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Mass Effect Andromeda
Posts: 441 Likes: 642
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Post by Coronavirus on Feb 13, 2020 2:24:37 GMT
Mass Effect 3, all happened because Sheperd was indoctrinated from reaper tech exposure in Arrival (and other times). Sexy Salarian Captain/Major Kirrahe rescues Shep from Reaper clutches right after the Reapers totally unfortunately wipe out all Asari in the Milky Way Galaxy and Bob’s your Uncle, new trilogy starts from there where your choices actually matter and we get a proper ending this time. No colour coded endings, no annoying little guilt kid, no Asari, no James Vega or Diana Allers, OK no Marauder Shields but we all have to make sacrifices for the greater good.
I’ve just saved your franchise BioWare.
Also I want a romance option that looks and sounds and acts exactly like Bastila Shan from Knights of the Old Republic.
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Post by smilesja on Feb 13, 2020 2:25:01 GMT
if you watch the secret ending The one where he breathes, while covered under a pile or rubble? Oh wait, that was the Mass Effect one. And besides when I said other protagonists I meant for Mass Effect. Really? Wow. What are the odds. Out of all the franchises, this is the one where there is currently a 75% chance that the title you'd be playing stars Shepard. How unlucky. But that is the result of one of the choices BioWare presented, they’re not going to deny other players just to appease the people who chose the destroy option. By the way the secret ending was referring to Halo.
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N3
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Mass Effect Andromeda
Posts: 679 Likes: 1,207
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Post by Polka Dot on Feb 13, 2020 2:37:54 GMT
If you're to change too much, too fast, people will reject it, as they did with Andromeda. You can argue that they didn't, but it's the only game Bioware has made in 13 years now that got no support, other than a patch or two and no DLC. Entitled you are to your own opinion; not your own "facts". They patched the game for several months, and continued to support MP for much longer. BioWare devs did a weekly twitch stream for at least 6 months after release, answering questions and taking player input. They did an extra balance update over a year after the 3-2-1-2017 release, and I think the weekly/monthly special missions continue to this day.
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N7
Go Team!
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Mass Effect Andromeda, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Posts: 10,642 Likes: 18,501
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Post by sjsharp2010 on Feb 13, 2020 3:10:59 GMT
If you're to change too much, too fast, people will reject it, as they did with Andromeda. You can argue that they didn't, but it's the only game Bioware has made in 13 years now that got no support, other than a patch or two and no DLC. Entitled you are to your own opinion; not your own "facts". They patched the game for several months, and continued to support MP for much longer. BioWare devs did a weekly twitch stream for at least 6 months after release, answering questions and taking player input. They did an extra balance update over a year after the 3-2-1-2017 release, and I think the weekly/monthly special missions continue to this day. Yea hindeed the only thing they didn't d owas release DLC but that's because of things being moved around no tdue to MEA' s 'supposed' failings that people like to dream up.
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Post by alanc9 on Feb 13, 2020 3:59:48 GMT
My take on it was that while Shepard returning is actually less popular with the fans than Shepard not returning I don't see where you get this idea from. For example, we've had many Captain Americas, many Batmen, but we always go back to Steve and Bruce. I can't see how it would be any different for Shepard. Really? Have you not been following the discussions on this topic at all? I mean, you hang out here enough, so I was assuming at least a passing familiarity with the material. Still, ignorance is better than intellectual dishonesty; the former can be fixed, theoretically. Here's the tl;dr of it. The problem is that for most fans there simply isn't a primary Shepard in the sense that Bruce Wayne and Steve Rogers are the primary identities for their respective characters. Shepard isn't a character, Shepard is a space where the player creates a character. If you're going to "bring back Shepard", what exactly are you bringing back? All of them? Conceptually impossible. All Shepards who survived ME3? A much smaller universe, but still unfeasible at any investment level EA would ever greenlight. All high-EMS Destroy Shepards who saved the quarians and cured the genophage? Now we're talking. But it's when we get down to this level that fans turn against the project, even if they liked bringing Shepard back in the abstract. Nobody ever likes a plan for bringing Shepard back once they see how it actually would work. Obviously, it's not a problem for guys who mostly remember the trailers and being able to run around as a cool guy who could shoot people in the face. but those gamers aren't going to be particularly committed to Mass Effect in the first place. I think you're trying to serve a population which doesn't actually exist. Or rather, is quite small. Technically, I might be in the audience for what you're proposing. I'm utterly indifferent to whether or not the returning Shepards have to be gated, even severely gated. I've got enough so one or two of mine can fit through, I'm sure, and I don't consider any run to be canon in any meaningful sense. (Not caring about this sets me apart from, for instance, Hanako.) My personal problem with the proposal, besides it finishing off ME for good, is that I think it would be an anticlimactic dud.
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