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Post by biggydx on Nov 13, 2019 19:46:47 GMT
Agreed; such games aren't going away. The question is whether Bio and EA want to play in that space. Historically, Bio as an organization has always wanted to be in the AAA space, and EA bought them to do just that. I'm not disagreeing. My point is Bioware COULD make AAA-quality RPGS. There is a demand for it, after all. They could dominate that market again if they cared to. What remains to be seen is do they still want to? I'd say that they do, but then it depends on what we define as an "RPG" in this day and age. For some, it's a gameplay style that's akin to Baldur's Gate or even something like New Vegas/Outer Worlds. For others, it's more in line with Mass Effect, where it's less about the stats, and more to do with you role-playing your character and NPC's/the world responding to your choices. For those less RPG inclined, some would even think an RPG is simply a leveling system mixed in with some loot progression (ex. God of War). DA4 is more likely to fall into the second option, based on how the series has progressed, but whether or not BioWare decides to take their games back to the Baldur's Gate approach is yet to be seen. Outside of the bigger picture questions related to the overall direction of the game, what I'm interested in is whether they'll go back to the older stat-based approach in DA:O. While I'm in the half of the community that didn't mind Inquisitions general combat that much, I did find that it forced you down a pretty strict playstyle; especially for mages. If it at least allowed for more play diversity, that would be nice. I can't speak for him, but I do remember Luke Barrett saying that he was in a major lead role regarding certain gameplay mechanics in the next title. If that's the case, I'm hoping he'll have some influence over the game's progression system so that you can go about building your character in a more non-linear approach. I think he's mentioned that he's not a fan of the more traditional leveling system, while also being a fan of Path of Exile, which has far more freedom in how you build your character.
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Post by colfoley on Nov 13, 2019 20:05:34 GMT
I'm not disagreeing. My point is Bioware COULD make AAA-quality RPGS. There is a demand for it, after all. They could dominate that market again if they cared to. What remains to be seen is do they still want to? I'd say that they do, but then it depends on what we define as an "RPG" in this day and age. For some, it's a gameplay style that's akin to Baldur's Gate or even something like New Vegas/Outer Worlds. For others, it's more in line with Mass Effect, where it's less about the stats, and more to do with you role-playing your character and NPC's/the world responding to your choices. For those less RPG inclined, some would even think an RPG is simply a leveling system mixed in with some loot progression (ex. God of War). DA4 is more likely to fall into the second option, based on how the series has progressed, but whether or not BioWare decides to take their games back to the Baldur's Gate approach is yet to be seen. Outside of the bigger picture questions related to the overall direction of the game, what I'm interested in is whether they'll go back to the older stat-based approach in DA:O. While I'm in the half of the community that didn't mind Inquisitions general combat that much, I did find that it forced you down a pretty strict playstyle; especially for mages. If it at least allowed for more play diversity, that would be nice. I can't speak for him, but I do remember Luke Barrett saying that he was in a major lead role regarding certain gameplay mechanics in the next title. If that's the case, I'm hoping he'll have some influence over the game's progression system so that you can go about building your character in a more non-linear approach. I think he's mentioned that he's not a fan of the more traditional leveling system, while also being a fan of Path of Exile, which has far more freedom in how you build your character. I certainly prefer the second type. Even to the point where I wouldn't mind if *most* of the stat building, inventory, and even some of the tactics just went away.
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Post by Sanunes on Nov 13, 2019 20:06:11 GMT
The question is if they follow that roadmap would the game be successful? Back in those days selling a couple hundred thousand copies was considered being a big success. Jade Empire the last game BioWare made of that vein nearly killed the company because it was a financial flop that was liked by critics and those that bought the game, but barely sold. And Greedfall and the Outer Worlds are both recent successes done by AA companies who didn't even do Bioware elements as well as classic Bioware did. And without microtransactions or GaaS either There is still a demand for it. I never said there wasn't a demand, the question is how strong a demand and would the people be willing to accept all the short comings of BioWare going down the AA route by dropping their standards to a point where they were still asking full price for a game with problems and features cut out such as voice acting. Looking as some of the "player" reviews for Greedfall just makes me think that BioWare going that route probably would find people that accept it, but its reception would be identical to their recent games, but instead of "selling out" or "old BioWare is gone" they would just change what they were complaining about so in the long run nothing would change aside from who BioWare is targeting for success and who feel left out.
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Post by Iakus on Nov 13, 2019 20:32:01 GMT
And Greedfall and the Outer Worlds are both recent successes done by AA companies who didn't even do Bioware elements as well as classic Bioware did. And without microtransactions or GaaS either There is still a demand for it. I never said there wasn't a demand, the question is how strong a demand and would the people be willing to accept all the short comings of BioWare going down the AA route by dropping their standards to a point where they were still asking full price for a game with problems and features cut out such as voice acting. Looking as some of the "player" reviews for Greedfall just makes me think that BioWare going that route probably would find people that accept it, but its reception would be identical to their recent games, but instead of "selling out" or "old BioWare is gone" they would just change what they were complaining about so in the long run nothing would change aside from who BioWare is targeting for success and who feel left out. Frankly, imitating Greedfall or the Outer Worlds wouldn't require Bioware to drop anything but its budget.
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Post by colfoley on Nov 13, 2019 20:37:53 GMT
I for one really don't think Outer Worlds or Greedfall has much to teach bio...maybe in the divergent path point of view.
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Post by biggydx on Nov 13, 2019 20:41:41 GMT
I certainly prefer the second type. Even to the point where I wouldn't mind if *most* of the stat building, inventory, and even some of the tactics just went away. But that's where it gets contentious for some people. Having more stats and passives that works towards defining who your character is means a lot to certain groups of players. It shows that they were willing to invest down a certain path, and while this may pose more obstacles for them - in certain scenarios - down the road, they know that they'll excel in these particular areas. It's why the hardcore RPG crowd liked the skill-check system in New Vegas. You could either go on a fetch quest to pick up the necessary medical equipment to help a group of wounded soldiers at a besieged NCR camp, or if your medicine skill was high, treat said patient right then and there. If BioWare goes the route that you want, then in that scenario they need to offer a TON of replayability through narrative - and gameplay - reactivity. It can't be just small changes to the world itself, especially if BioWare wants their games wants to have choices matter. People won't just settle with small references to things that you did.
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Post by colfoley on Nov 13, 2019 23:40:41 GMT
I certainly prefer the second type. Even to the point where I wouldn't mind if *most* of the stat building, inventory, and even some of the tactics just went away. But that's where it gets contentious for some people. Having more stats and passives that works towards defining who your character is means a lot to certain groups of players. It shows that they were willing to invest down a certain path, and while this may pose more obstacles for them - in certain scenarios - down the road, they know that they'll excel in these particular areas. It's why the hardcore RPG crowd liked the skill-check system in New Vegas. You could either go on a fetch quest to pick up the necessary medical equipment to help a group of wounded soldiers at a besieged NCR camp, or if your medicine skill was high, treat said patient right then and there. If BioWare goes the route that you want, then in that scenario they need to offer a TON of replayability through narrative - and gameplay - reactivity. It can't be just small changes to the world itself, especially if BioWare wants their games wants to have choices matter. People won't just settle with small references to things that you did. oh absolutely. I suppose I should clarify that I do actually like assinging the attribute points, I liked doing it in DAO and DA 2 (I generally enjoy 'levelling up' in the first place)...but I did not mind when it went away in Inquisition either...or at least changed. The problem was when assinging those points became restrictive to RP rather then freeing of it. In DA 2 certain levels of attribute points were needed to get certain weapons and armor, so instead of being encouraged to try out 'unique' builds I always had to make sure I was dumping points into Dex/ Cunning or Magic to ensure that I was able to use the higher level armor, and boy were some of the points required a bit on the high side. Ideally then anything they do in this regard should be to free those RP restrictions and make it so you don't literally have to choose between one or the other. My general idea is to have all weapons and armor open, especially if they go classeless or partially classless, but some attribute points makes your use of those weapons or armor more effective. Like Dex could increase your attack speed with daggers or strength could increase your DPS for bows. This would encourage players to try out some truly radical new builds without punishing them. Imagine if you have 'rogues' that used war hammers and thus needed high strength? More traditional warriors using daggers and focusing on speed...etc. Other than that I hope that such things have an effect on GP like you could use Cunning to unlock special dialogue in a quest which lets you solve it...but then Inquisition proved you don't even *need* to do that with some of the Inquisition perks. As far as replayability is concerned. I usually create one or two characters and just keep on replaying them (face codes in DA 4)...but I think the industry is in the place and realized that most gamers I don't think *replay* games, or barely even finish them. Which is where their efforts seem to be devoted to: Make someone stick with a game as long as possible as a way of getting them to stick around for the DLC and expansions.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Nov 14, 2019 2:54:22 GMT
Thing is, DA has so far NEVER been about designing your playstyle or whatever. In every game, the class choice that you make at the start pretty much locks you in to a particular path, with at best a few branching options.
DAI wasn't a 'streamlining' so much as a dropping of pretense. In DA2 only 2 of the 6 available stats actually DO anything for your chosen class, so why even let you put points in any others? What roleplay gain is there to be had in increasing your strength stat if you were already locked out of using any strength ever, the minute you decided to play as a rogue or mage? If it was dialogue options you were concerned about, DA2 and DAI instituted different systems for accessing those anyway.
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Post by Iakus on Nov 14, 2019 16:26:35 GMT
Thing is, DA has so far NEVER been about designing your playstyle or whatever. In every game, the class choice that you make at the start pretty much locks you in to a particular path, with at best a few branching options. DAI wasn't a 'streamlining' so much as a dropping of pretense. In DA2 only 2 of the 6 available stats actually DO anything for your chosen class, so why even let you put points in any others? What roleplay gain is there to be had in increasing your strength stat if you were already locked out of using any strength ever, the minute you decided to play as a rogue or mage? If it was dialogue options you were concerned about, DA2 and DAI instituted different systems for accessing those anyway. In DAO, a warrior had access to all four weapon builds. Mages could use all five magic schools. You could (and I did) create a mage without any elemental attacks at all, and still contribute to a party.
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Post by alanc9 on Nov 14, 2019 16:33:29 GMT
Although once you picked a weapon style, that was pretty much it.
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Post by Iakus on Nov 14, 2019 16:47:58 GMT
Although once you picked a weapon style, that was pretty much it. You could still have a duel-wielding or archery warrior, though. Or heck, take two, and not be a master at either, you could still have two different sets of weapons equipped for different occasions.
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Post by alanc9 on Nov 14, 2019 17:50:39 GMT
Sure. But I'll still take DA2 or DAI over DAO for building warriors. I find more variability within two weapon styles better than less variability within four styles.
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Post by Iakus on Nov 14, 2019 17:57:59 GMT
Sure. But I'll still take DA2 or DAI over DAO for building warriors. I find more variability within two weapon styles better than less variability within four styles. I'd rather have both: more variability with more styles. Still, even DA2 gave us more/better options than DAI.
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Post by biggydx on Nov 14, 2019 18:10:01 GMT
Sure. But I'll still take DA2 or DAI over DAO for building warriors. I find more variability within two weapon styles better than less variability within four styles. I'd rather have both: more variability with more styles. Still, even DA2 gave us more/better options than DAI. I still weep for the loss of the Tactics system. Youd think with BioWare going all in on the combo system, they'd emphasize its use even more in DA:I.
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Post by Iakus on Nov 14, 2019 18:12:44 GMT
I'd rather have both: more variability with more styles. Still, even DA2 gave us more/better options than DAI. I still weep for the loss of the Tactics system. Youd think with BioWare going all in on the combo system, they'd emphasize its use even more in DA:I.
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Post by colfoley on Nov 14, 2019 18:20:57 GMT
...
My copy of DAI had tactics in it. Granted something I hope they fine tune in the future but it was there.
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Post by revelationeffect on Nov 14, 2019 18:29:39 GMT
I mean while it does technically exist in some form it is undeniable they axed most of its features and complexity. Personally I never actually used it all that much so it's not a big deal to me, but DAO and DA2 had a great many options for all kinds of circumstances, and were granular enough that you could set circumstantial triggers for various abilities and such, something that is missing in DAI in favor of pretty basic general behavior settings.
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Post by colfoley on Nov 14, 2019 18:34:02 GMT
I mean while it does technically exist in some form it is undeniable they axed most of its features and complexity. Personally I never actually used it all that much so it's not a big deal to me, but DAO and DA2 had a great many options for all kinds of circumstances, and were granular enough that you could set circumstantial triggers for various abilities and such, something that is missing in DAI in favor of pretty basic general behavior settings. indeed. Just give me the ability to set priority targets and we'll...well we SHOULD be fine.
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Post by Iakus on Nov 14, 2019 18:35:19 GMT
... My copy of DAI had tactics in it. Granted something I hope they fine tune in the future but it was there. DAI "tactics" boiled down to Use this power Use this power A LOT Don't use this power at all. Compare that to DAO and DA2's tactics, where you could specify when to use AoE and healing powers, target enemies with particular debuffs with particular spells for combos, prioritize certain enemies, etc. A fight with a well-plotted-out tactical system was a thing of beauty to watch unfold
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Post by colfoley on Nov 14, 2019 18:38:10 GMT
... My copy of DAI had tactics in it. Granted something I hope they fine tune in the future but it was there. DAI "tactics" boiled down to Use this power Use this power A LOT Don't use this power at all. Compare that to DAO and DA2's tactics, where you could specify when to use AoE and healing powers, target enemies with particular debuffs with particular spells for combos, prioritize certain enemies, etc. A fight with a well-plotted-out tactical system was a thing of beauty to watch unfold well it had more complexity then that. And that might be why I struggled considering I didn't spend a lot of time 'plotting'
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Post by DragonKingReborn on Nov 14, 2019 19:05:30 GMT
well it had more complexity then that. Yeah...only just, though. You could also set a companion to "follow X", where they'd attack whichever enemy X was attacking, or "Defend X", where they'd attack whichever enemy was attacking X. Plus potion management, I guess. Going from Origins/2, DAIs tactics had the complexity of a single-celled organism.
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Post by colfoley on Nov 14, 2019 19:07:06 GMT
well it had more complexity then that. Yeah...only just, though. You could also set a companion to "follow X", where they'd attack whichever enemy X was attacking, or "Defend X", where they'd attack whichever enemy was attacking X. Plus potion management, I guess. Going from Origins/2, DAIs tactics had the complexity of a single-celled organism. or they'd just stand there if no one was attacking what you wanted defended...
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Post by DragonKingReborn on Nov 14, 2019 19:08:52 GMT
Yeah...only just, though. You could also set a companion to "follow X", where they'd attack whichever enemy X was attacking, or "Defend X", where they'd attack whichever enemy was attacking X. Plus potion management, I guess. Going from Origins/2, DAIs tactics had the complexity of a single-celled organism. or they'd just stand there if no one was attacking what you wanted defended... And of course, sometimes they'd just stand there, no matter what was happening.... I need more coffee - I really do love DAI, just not blind to areas where it fell short of its predecessors.
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Post by colfoley on Nov 14, 2019 19:13:14 GMT
or they'd just stand there if no one was attacking what you wanted defended... And of course, sometimes they'd just stand there, no matter what was happening.... I need more coffee - I really do love DAI, just not blind to areas where it fell short of its predecessors. hey I'm not sure if it fell short of its predecessors though...I've never liked 'tactics' in DA lol.
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Post by Buckeldemon on Nov 14, 2019 19:37:10 GMT
Is DAI's system different across platforms? For me on PC it was pretty much like Iakus described. So it is setting priorities, turning abilites on/off or adjusting potion usage so they don't get wasted if a party member acts unfavourably and would die anyway (I did that a lot in dragon battles). The "tactical camera" feels much like the counterpart of pausing the game for DAO/DA2. Good for assessing the opponents (backstabbers especially) and making party members actually stay put at the Dead Hand puzzle. Setting up rather elaborate tactics in DAO/DA2 is great. Some character builds such as Wynne-style support mages can function completely on auto, aka healbot. DA2's standard setups are not that ideal (Mighty Blow being wasted on critter-ranks ), but they can be adjusted to be rather efficient. Helps with the combos. DA2 is somewhat better as it has more slots (Morrigan is absurd early game with her load of spells and only four slots), conditions like checking health for several characters for a group heal, and even a way to jury-rig an AND-condition. Pretty much DAO's only andvantage is three custom tactic sets, DA2 only has one.
Dumb question: are there actually any other party-based games using this coding-style approach?
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