Abyss108
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Post by Abyss108 on Aug 4, 2016 20:55:39 GMT
Well, now we have 2 completely different interpretations of words/phrases by people who apparently don't see the opposite. Language sucks...
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Post by Element Zero on Aug 4, 2016 21:11:21 GMT
I have virtually zero presence online, and certainly don't follow Manveer Heir (I believe he's the guy we're discussing). It seems there is all sort of nuance to this "White Tears" of which I wasn't aware. You know what? None of it matters. It's still inflammatory and unhelpful.
Reading his posts, he seems nearly entirely devoted to this line of thought. I imagine he's had some difficult experiences. Maybe stuff like that helps him feel better. Despite my "whiteness", I'm not completely oblivious to the things he seems to believe he's fighting. Ultimately, though, behavior like his divides, and BioWare shouldn't be endorsing it through quiet acceptance. As I said before, swap ethnicities or genders and this guy is fired, in order to protect BioWare's image as champions of social justice and empathy.
I've nothing more to add to this thread. I feel badly for the guy. I have intimate family and close friends of multiple races and nationalities. There is injustice everywhere you look in this world. Still, it's unfortunate that he feels this is the way he needs to express his frustration with injustice. It just seems like it would be so miserable a path, in the long run, being such a negative smart ass all the time.
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Abyss108
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Post by Abyss108 on Aug 4, 2016 21:25:37 GMT
I have virtually zero presence online, and certainly don't follow Manveer Heir (I believe he's the guy we're discussing). It seems there is all sort of nuance to this "White Tears" of which I wasn't aware. You know what? None of it matters. It's still inflammatory and unhelpful. Reading his posts, he seems nearly entirely devoted to this line of thought. I imagine he's had some difficult experiences. Maybe stuff like that helps him feel better. Despite my "whiteness", I'm not completely oblivious to the things he seems to believe he's fighting. Ultimately, though, behavior like his divides, and BioWare shouldn't be endorsing it through quiet acceptance. As I said before, swap ethnicities or genders and this guy is fired, in order to protect BioWare's image as champions of social justice and empathy. I've nothing more to add to this thread. I feel badly for the guy. I have intimate family and close friends of multiple races and nationalities. There is injustice everywhere you look in this world. Still, it's unfortunate that he feels this is the way he needs to express his frustration with injustice. It just seems like it would be so miserable a path, in the long run, being such a negative smart ass all the time. Hmm, I'd disagree that the way he's using it doesn't matter. If he's using Heimdall's definition - yeah, I'd say it's bad. Because it would be insulting a large group of people based of race. If he's using my definition - he's insulting a bunch of people based of their behaviour and actions. Insulting a bunch of strangers you don't know because of their race is terrible, but I'm 100% OK with insulting people based off their actual actions if those actions are dumb.
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Post by Arcian on Aug 4, 2016 21:30:38 GMT
Talk about making a mountain out of a molehill.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 4, 2016 21:40:27 GMT
The thing is I don't want to know. The more I learn about the realities of BioWare HQ the more it tarnishes the games. Any company has bad apples, dodgy practices, not enough respect for employees etc etc etc. Any developer. Any publisher. It's just real life. I'm better off singing a little tune to myself with my fingers in my ears, and just enjoying the games for what they are.
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Post by SofaJockey on Aug 4, 2016 22:39:54 GMT
hmmm, I'll admit it, when I first saw this thread, my expectations of it ending in a fight were moderate. Thank you all for a fairly intelligent thread (so far) on a sensitive subject liable to disagreement. (polite applause)
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Post by Lady Artifice on Aug 4, 2016 22:48:00 GMT
Well, I'm not saying it was a particularly classy or cool thing to do--imo, trolling rarely is. It's just that to me, he seemed to making an ironic point with the mug rather than expressing earnest delight at the suffering, real or perceived, of others.
I might be wrong, and he might genuinely distain white people. If so, that sucks, but still wouldn't be a concern for me unless he were a writer.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Aug 4, 2016 22:48:08 GMT
*reads the posts of Manveer and those who agree with him* Oh man, they are incorrect and hypocritical on so many levels.
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Post by mrsanomaly on Aug 4, 2016 22:58:29 GMT
I take all of his crap tweets as sarcasm and trolling, his dedication to his art is fierce.
I just know if there was a pic of me on twitter with a coffee mug full of "India tears" or "Pakistani Tears" or "Black people tears" or "insert any other race or demographic other than white" the rage would be a full pyre by now.
Personally, as a half white person, who married a white person, I shrug at this. But at the same time, I think he's an asshole and he needs to check his own privilege LOL.
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Post by SalMasRac on Aug 4, 2016 23:25:13 GMT
Greetings folks. I present you Manveer Heir. He is a racist who works in Bioware and is a developer for the upcoming Mass Effect Andromeda game. Here are archived copies of some of his tweets:- www.reddit.com/r/KotakuInAction/comments/4w205y/twitter_bullshit_manveer_heirs_comments_about/Here is he going crazy / getting pointlessly triggered about Deus Ex Mankind Divided (and not in a good way):- www.reddit.com/r/KotakuInAction/comments/4w05oi/socjus_manveer_heir_quoted_in_polygon_as_saying/I don't know about you people but Bioware is behaving in an extremely hypocritical manner. They whip up a storm about representation and diversity yet they hire someone who is openly racist to develop one of their games. Fyi, I am not white. I am an Asian Indian living in Southeast Asia. I simply think that racism towards anyone should not be tolerated, particularly by a company that claims to champion representation and diversity. I probably will hold off from buying Mass Effect Andromeda because the last thing I want is to support a racist. The least Bioware could do is issue a statement or just outright fire him. Have a nice day and cheers. What's he think of the new Ghostbusters?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 4, 2016 23:39:53 GMT
yeah, this is pretty much trolling toward white people who think they can be systematically oppressed based on their skin color. (which they can't be) not to mention, a lot of people who complain about this kinda stuff are usually the type of people who make fun of others who're "too sensitive" and "can't take a joke" just my 2 cents.
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Post by Furisco on Aug 4, 2016 23:47:27 GMT
New forum.
Same old BSN x)
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Post by Reznore on Aug 4, 2016 23:59:53 GMT
People have opinions. I have to say I wish game companies , at the very least , try to stay neutral about the SWJ/Gamergate stuff. It makes matter even more complicated with Twitter where the line is blurred between personal stuff and work stuff. Oh well.The tweet is a bit puerile but I don't know this person and perhaps he suffered from racism and it's his only way to get back at people *shrug*
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Post by capn233 on Aug 5, 2016 0:00:01 GMT
I don't see color. People tell me I'm white, and I believe them because I dance like Shepard.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Aug 5, 2016 0:07:58 GMT
yeah, this is pretty much trolling toward white people who think they can be systematically oppressed based on their skin color. (which they can't be) Um, yes they absolutely can. If a white person is in a place where being white is being in the minority, then they can be systematically oppressed based on their skin color.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 5, 2016 0:08:55 GMT
Meh. I don't want to participate or revel in an outrage porno, but somehow this feels pretty hollow and falls flat even as an attempt. I don't think he's just trolling for trolling's sake, and I'd be surprised if there wasn't any genuine belief or emotion behind those tweets (by quickly looking just at sheer number of them, and there's some, which I can only presume to be his legitimate political views, which are in-line with his belligerent ones). Provocativeness is probably intentional stylistic choice, along with a sarcasm and tongue-cheek, but I see nothing more but your average venting of holy rage about perceived injustices of the world. I think, it's quite humane and not exactly unusual in the internet. According those tweets he is probably a gaping asshole, whom I wouldn't care to meet or exchange one word, but so what. What's yet another throwing of rocks or insults at this point going to do or change.
Don't see a problem, even if he's EA employee. Personally I can't say I would be terrible cross if these SWJ-meme cluster beliefs overlap to Bioware games, if those are indeed values Bioware employees most commonly share, and it is the game they want to make . Not that necessarily I'd share them or want to play that game, but I don't see no inherent reasons why games shouldn't ever be political or editorializing, or that any singular game should try appeal to everybody (the polarization is so far away, that I doubt anybody can do anything meaningful or "deep" anymore, which wouldn't exclude or offend at least some large particular group or other). As long as they are honest and forthcoming with their choices and intentions.
Considering the corporation which Bioware is now part of, I wouldn't be surprised if honest and forthcoming is pretty much everything they are not going to do (regardless of how a game truly is, it's pretty sure that we are going to see calculated gestures and lips service towards every imaginable group there is, from "old school fans" to SWJs, and every group they think is reasonably large demographically).
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Post by Biodron on Aug 5, 2016 3:00:20 GMT
Even if he was serious, he doesn't get involved in the history so i don't care.
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Post by malanek on Aug 5, 2016 4:23:53 GMT
Meh, one or two of those don't sound too good (most are harmless) but there is not really any context. I'll judge Bioware by their games rather than the personal views of their employees.
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drrotinaj
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Post by drrotinaj on Aug 5, 2016 6:33:41 GMT
LOL r/KiA really needs to make up their mind. They deride "the microaggression generation" and PC-culture but they call this racial sarcasm "unabashed racism"?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 5, 2016 9:39:30 GMT
Where exactly do you see it used this way? Its a little ways down in one of the links, where he expresses the sentiment that racism toward white people should be dismissed. Amongst similar tweets. ""Prejudice against white people" can't be a serious thing you are claiming. They don't even approach the same league awfulness." EDIT: If you mean where do I see people use "white tears" that way it's generally by the same people who use "racism is prejudice+power" to try and legitimize their own hypocritical prejudiced rhetoric to claim things like how white people are all racist by definition in our society' (Ironically, they don't even deny that their views are based on prejudice) Please note, I'm talking about racism as it exists in the US. As I understand it, prejudice + power isn't about accusing everyone of racism although I think that most everyone suffers from a tribal mentality that is a hold-over from our evolutionary past. That's another discussion, though. Prejudice + power is used to point out the practical difference in the way racism effects an actual oppressed minority living under structural racism vs the small effect on the lives of the dominant group that benefits from structural racism. White people benefit from structural racism. That's not a finger-wagging condemnation of white people. It's just a fact. None of us asked to benefit from it; we were just born into a society that has a long horrible history of racism and this racism is embedded in the fabric of our society. A white person's offended feelings about being judged on their race is never going to be equal to what a person of color experiences daily. The "white tears" mug is mocking people that try to make these issues equivalent. Far too often, conversations about racism and what to do about it are derailed by the dominant group, white people, insisting that the conversation be made all about them. That's not really helpful and doesn't solve any problems. We really need to sit back and listen when a POC speaks and help to educate fellow white people. My two cents.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 5, 2016 10:26:47 GMT
Just another note, if you are a white person, think about the impact the white tears mug has on your life versus the issues that POC's experience daily. If you don't really know anything about the experiences of POC's in the states, take some time to read about their experiences and see if you still feel that these issues are equivalent.
With everything that is going on in the states, my sympathy goes out to anyone living under a system that oppresses them; I can't get worked up over how the dev chooses to express his frustration.
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Abyss108
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Post by Abyss108 on Aug 5, 2016 10:42:55 GMT
Nobody is applying racism to a different group by mocking people who think the fact that a white person had something racist said to them one time which had no effect on their life is equivalent to what a different group experiences on a daily bases.
It's like going up to a bunch of starving people on the street and bitching about how you had to skip breakfast once because your boss wanted you to get to work early and maybe instead of trying to solve homelessness, they should give free breakfasts to people at work.
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Post by Pounce de León on Aug 5, 2016 10:48:37 GMT
Delivering bad work - that would be "controversial". What some guy thinks or tweets on the other half of the globe - not so much.
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Heimdall
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition, Dragon Age The Veilguard
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Post by Heimdall on Aug 5, 2016 11:06:43 GMT
Its a little ways down in one of the links, where he expresses the sentiment that racism toward white people should be dismissed. Amongst similar tweets. ""Prejudice against white people" can't be a serious thing you are claiming. They don't even approach the same league awfulness." EDIT: If you mean where do I see people use "white tears" that way it's generally by the same people who use "racism is prejudice+power" to try and legitimize their own hypocritical prejudiced rhetoric to claim things like how white people are all racist by definition in our society' (Ironically, they don't even deny that their views are based on prejudice) Please note, I'm talking about racism as it exists in the US. As I understand it, prejudice + power isn't about accusing everyone of racism although I think that most everyone suffers from a tribal mentality that is a hold-over from our evolutionary past. That's another discussion, though. Prejudice + power is used to point out the practical difference in the way racism effects an actual oppressed minority living under structural racism vs the small effect on the lives of the dominant group that benefits from structural racism. White people benefit from structural racism. That's not a finger-wagging condemnation of white people. It's just a fact. None of us asked to benefit from it; we were just born into a society that has a long horrible history of racism and this racism is embedded in the fabric of our society. A white person's offended feelings about being judged on their race is never going to be equal to what a person of color experiences daily. The "white tears" mug is mocking people that try to make these issues equivalent. Far too often, conversations about racism and what to do about it are derailed by the dominant group, white people, insisting that the conversation be made all about them. That's not really helpful and doesn't solve any problems. We really need to sit back and listen when a POC speaks and help to educate fellow white people. My two cents. Nobody is arguing that they are equivalent, so I'm not sure what you're going on about.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 5, 2016 11:10:26 GMT
Please note, I'm talking about racism as it exists in the US. As I understand it, prejudice + power isn't about accusing everyone of racism although I think that most everyone suffers from a tribal mentality that is a hold-over from our evolutionary past. That's another discussion, though. Prejudice + power is used to point out the practical difference in the way racism effects an actual oppressed minority living under structural racism vs the small effect on the lives of the dominant group that benefits from structural racism. White people benefit from structural racism. That's not a finger-wagging condemnation of white people. It's just a fact. None of us asked to benefit from it; we were just born into a society that has a long horrible history of racism and this racism is embedded in the fabric of our society. A white person's offended feelings about being judged on their race is never going to be equal to what a person of color experiences daily. The "white tears" mug is mocking people that try to make these issues equivalent. Far too often, conversations about racism and what to do about it are derailed by the dominant group, white people, insisting that the conversation be made all about them. That's not really helpful and doesn't solve any problems. We really need to sit back and listen when a POC speaks and help to educate fellow white people. My two cents. Nobody is arguing that they are equivalent, so I'm not sure what you're going on about. I'm pointing out what most social justice people are trying to get at when they talk about prejudice+power. Didn't expect the hostility from you. But, okay, noted.
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