inherit
9459
0
Nov 24, 2021 20:18:46 GMT
5,628
SirSourpuss
7,694
Oct 16, 2017 16:19:07 GMT
October 2017
sirpetrakus
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, SWTOR
|
Post by SirSourpuss on Jul 5, 2020 0:49:44 GMT
Can you say what exactly you mean by this? The entire premise of my existence is to end conflict between synthetics and organics, so I will kill organics, before they make synthetics, that will kill synthetics, but I will also aid the already existing synthetics to kill the organics organics who made them, while I am busy killing other organics, before they make other synthetics, that I will, most likely, further aid in killing organics.For beings very hellbent to protect organics from making synthetics, that will eventually try to kill the organics, the Reapers and the Reaper AI that made them, are really inefficient in their planning, if they need to enable the very thing they are supposed to prevent from happening. It's like saying "I'm going to protect mankind from getting wiped out by a meteorite, by nuking it before that happens", but in this case, I didn't just nuke mankind, but I also put thrusters on a meteorite and set it in a collision course with Earth.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
Deleted
inherit
guest@proboards.com
11466
0
Deleted
0
January 1970
Deleted
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2020 1:38:31 GMT
Can you say what exactly you mean by this? The entire premise of my existence is to end conflict between synthetics and organics, so I will kill organics, before they make synthetics, that will kill synthetics, but I will also aid the already existing synthetics to kill the organics organics who made them, while I am busy killing other organics, before they make other synthetics, that I will, most likely, further aid in killing organics.For beings very hellbent to protect organics from making synthetics, that will eventually try to kill the organics, the Reapers and the Reaper AI that made them, are really inefficient in their planning, if they need to enable the very thing they are supposed to prevent from happening. It's like saying "I'm going to protect mankind from getting wiped out by a meteorite, by nuking it before that happens", but in this case, I didn't just nuke mankind, but I also put thrusters on a meteorite and set it in a collision course with Earth. Ah ok, this is what I figured was meant- that it was illogical or self-defeating/self-contradictory, rather than a logical "fallacy" per se- but always better to ask than assume.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
Deleted
inherit
guest@proboards.com
133
0
Deleted
0
January 1970
Deleted
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2020 1:56:36 GMT
|
|
inherit
1480
0
1,080
gothpunkboy89
2,311
September 2016
gothpunkboy89
|
Post by gothpunkboy89 on Jul 5, 2020 2:36:46 GMT
The Quarian-Geth peace already alone destroys their premise that is inevitable. The only reason peace was possible was because of reaper interference. If it wasn't for that interference, the quarians would have dealt with the geth. Meaning the reapers were never needed if the creators are able to destroy their creations. What could have made a good argument against thing is if Admiral Han "I have an itchy trigger finger" Gerrell stands down without having the geth upload the code. Would the geth have stopped firing back? Maybe. Both sides could come to some peaceful resolution, albeit, a temporary one, but peaceful nonetheless. What would thing say? Most likely come up with some hocus pocus comment saying it won't last forever. Slightly contradicted by the fact without the Reaper Mass Relay network to bring the Quarins to the other races and the other races to unite to form a coherent military that out numbered the Geth. There is a good chance the Quarians would have slowly died off in the interstellar void. Not being able to make or buy ships and replacement parts that they had become reliant on.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
Deleted
inherit
guest@proboards.com
11466
0
Deleted
0
January 1970
Deleted
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2020 2:54:25 GMT
right, which made it unclear what exactly was meant in this context since "logical fallacies" are typically understood as illicit inferences... not illogical or implausible plotlines or endings
|
|
inherit
1480
0
1,080
gothpunkboy89
2,311
September 2016
gothpunkboy89
|
Post by gothpunkboy89 on Jul 5, 2020 13:47:26 GMT
Can you say what exactly you mean by this? The entire premise of my existence is to end Prevent conflict between synthetics and organics Which would result in the complete destruction of organic life, so I will kill organics, before they make synthetics, that will kill synthetics, but I will also aid the already existing synthetics to kill the organics organics who made them, while I am busy killing other organics, before they make other synthetics, that I will, most likely, further aid in killing organics. Which keeps resetting the galaxy back to a starting point while preserving the history of harvested races as an imperfect solution to a problem.
For beings very hellbent to protect organics from making synthetics, that will eventually try to kill the organics, the Reapers and the Reaper AI that made them, are really inefficient in their planning, if they need to enable the very thing they are supposed to prevent from happening Utilize any possible methods to achive the primary goal It's like saying " I'm going to protect mankind from getting wiped out by a meteorite, by nuking it before that happens I'm going to put this old person out of their misery because they do not want to suffer for years in pain. Which still involves killing another person but done for good reasons.", but in this case, I didn't just nuke mankind, but I also put thrusters on a meteorite and set it in a collision course with Earth.I fixed your post.
|
|
inherit
4588
0
Nov 27, 2024 22:55:38 GMT
3,170
therevanchist25
1,826
Mar 15, 2017 23:07:06 GMT
March 2017
therevanchist25
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Anthem
|
Post by therevanchist25 on Jul 5, 2020 14:30:55 GMT
The entire premise of my existence is to end Prevent conflict between synthetics and organics Which would result in the complete destruction of organic life, so I will kill organics, before they make synthetics, that will kill synthetics, but I will also aid the already existing synthetics to kill the organics organics who made them, while I am busy killing other organics, before they make other synthetics, that I will, most likely, further aid in killing organics. Which keeps resetting the galaxy back to a starting point while preserving the history of harvested races as an imperfect solution to a problem.
For beings very hellbent to protect organics from making synthetics, that will eventually try to kill the organics, the Reapers and the Reaper AI that made them, are really inefficient in their planning, if they need to enable the very thing they are supposed to prevent from happening Utilize any possible methods to achive the primary goal It's like saying " I'm going to protect mankind from getting wiped out by a meteorite, by nuking it before that happens I'm going to put this old person out of their misery because they do not want to suffer for years in pain. Which still involves killing another person but done for good reasons.", but in this case, I didn't just nuke mankind, but I also put thrusters on a meteorite and set it in a collision course with Earth. I fixed your post.
|
|
Highwayman667
N3
"In uncertainty, find infinite possibility"
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire
Posts: 522 Likes: 724
inherit
11507
0
Jun 22, 2021 18:16:33 GMT
724
Highwayman667
"In uncertainty, find infinite possibility"
522
May 10, 2020 13:11:01 GMT
May 2020
highwayman667
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire
|
Post by Highwayman667 on Jul 5, 2020 14:32:11 GMT
Do not feed the trolls people.
Some just come here to argue and insult the developers without suggesting any solutions to the problems they themselves are pointing out. They are unable to since they have nothing to offer in terms of skill, creativity or even imagination.
I don't know if we've talked about the only thing that would actually be wrong with remaking the Mass Effect Trilogy: the short span between the last game and this supposed remake.
To clarify, I don't think there is a method were one should say "For thy game to be remade thou must have at least a score of years before thy remake"... but it should probably be that one. I can still play and enjoy the entire trilogy and feel how it's up to date and still relevant in many respects. Saying it's aged like fine wine is an understatement to me.
Thus, it just seems a bit too soon to even start thinking about remaking Mass Effect.
|
|
inherit
2754
0
6,018
Son of Dorn
Fortifying everything.
6,312
Jan 11, 2017 14:17:27 GMT
January 2017
doomlolz
Dragon Age Inquisition
|
Post by Son of Dorn on Jul 5, 2020 14:42:50 GMT
Do not feed the trolls people.Some just come here to argue and insult the developers without suggesting any solutions to the problems they themselves are pointing out. They are unable to since they have nothing to offer in terms of skill, creativity or even imagination. I don't know if we've talked about the only thing that would actually be wrong with remaking the Mass Effect Trilogy: the short span between the last game and this supposed remake. To clarify, I don't think there is a method were one should say "For thy game to be remade thou must have at least a score of years before thy remake"... but it should probably be that one. I can still play and enjoy the entire trilogy and feel how it's up to date and still relevant in many respects. Saying it's aged like fine wine is an understatement to me. Thus, it just seems a bit too soon to even start thinking about remaking Mass Effect. And why would anyone waste their time coming up with solutions when it would lead to nothing? There's far more interesting things to do then coming up with solutions that'll be pointless to come up with. Plus, no one would get paid to do it, so again it's pointless.
|
|
inherit
1480
0
1,080
gothpunkboy89
2,311
September 2016
gothpunkboy89
|
Post by gothpunkboy89 on Jul 5, 2020 15:33:27 GMT
Disagree with me all your like. But us actual arguments not just a single image to say I'm wrong. I mean you can include images if you want but I'm more interested in your actual argument.
It only becomes illogical and a falllacy if you look at it from a very narrow perspective. The Reapers want to prevent war between organics and synthetics but due to fundamental aspects of what each group is this is an impossibility in the long term. So they settle for a compromise of harvesting all technologically advanced life every 50,000 years. Harvesting them before they get to far advanced in tech to create synthetic life that is capable of wiping them out. So they keep hitting the reset button on a galactic scale each time it reaches a certain point.
Reapers do not care about individual races they care about organic life as a whole and as long as organic life still exists then they have done their job. Particularly because many races wouldn't exist in the first place without Reaper's actions. Humanity is the result of a long evolutionary path resulting from very specific events taking place. Had another space faring race colonized and build up Earth the chain of events that lead to humanity would be irreversibly altered and we suddenly don't exist as we are now if we exist at all. Humanity's existence is 100% dependent on the Reapers and without them we never would have existed at all.
When the time comes to harvest the galaxy there is only the harvest. There is no other point and any means to achieve that goal is acceptable to be utilized. Normally they use the Citadel but due to Prothean interference that option was disabled and so Sovereign created a plan B and utilized the Geth as a blunt force weapon to force his way onto the Citadel to open the Relay and let the Reapers flow in. There is no hypocrisy because they are simply going after a goal of harvest and perverse this cycle by any means necessary.
The fact the Quarians even survived the Morning War was thanks to the Reapers. Their Mass Relay Networks are what allowed the Quarians to retreat back into the heavily developed and united and Council and Council Aligned space. Which again was so developed and connected because of the Mass Relay Networks. Given how far Quarian space is from the other races and given the limitations of space travel even with FTL without the Relays. It would be hundreds of years before the Quarians found another developed race. And while we do not know for sure what their situation was in terms of resources in the Fleet when they fled Rannoch. But they are clearly heavily dependent on the other races for supplies and ships. And entire coming of age ceremony were young Quarians venture outside of the Fleet into the wider galaxy to find something useful or hire themselves out for credits for the Fleet to be able to buy things it needs. Various conversations with Quarians show how much the Quarians rely on cast off things other races just throw away. They find them and refit or strip them for parts to help the Fleet be maintained.
But the few hundred thousand or so Quarians with only what ever could be loaded onto ships thrown into the void with no one to help around and just what they brought with them to survive. I'd argue that Quarians would slowly die in space long before reaching any planet they could colonize or any other developed planet that could help them.
|
|
inherit
2754
0
6,018
Son of Dorn
Fortifying everything.
6,312
Jan 11, 2017 14:17:27 GMT
January 2017
doomlolz
Dragon Age Inquisition
|
Post by Son of Dorn on Jul 5, 2020 16:06:37 GMT
Disagree with me all your like. But us actual arguments not just a single image to say I'm wrong. I mean you can include images if you want but I'm more interested in your actual argument.
It only becomes illogical and a falllacy if you look at it from a very narrow perspective. The Reapers want to prevent war between organics and synthetics but due to fundamental aspects of what each group is this is an impossibility in the long term. So they settle for a compromise of harvesting all technologically advanced life every 50,000 years. Harvesting them before they get to far advanced in tech to create synthetic life that is capable of wiping them out. So they keep hitting the reset button on a galactic scale each time it reaches a certain point.
Reapers do not care about individual races they care about organic life as a whole and as long as organic life still exists then they have done their job. Particularly because many races wouldn't exist in the first place without Reaper's actions. Humanity is the result of a long evolutionary path resulting from very specific events taking place. Had another space faring race colonized and build up Earth the chain of events that lead to humanity would be irreversibly altered and we suddenly don't exist as we are now if we exist at all. Humanity's existence is 100% dependent on the Reapers and without them we never would have existed at all.
When the time comes to harvest the galaxy there is only the harvest. There is no other point and any means to achieve that goal is acceptable to be utilized. Normally they use the Citadel but due to Prothean interference that option was disabled and so Sovereign created a plan B and utilized the Geth as a blunt force weapon to force his way onto the Citadel to open the Relay and let the Reapers flow in. There is no hypocrisy because they are simply going after a goal of harvest and perverse this cycle by any means necessary.
The fact the Quarians even survived the Morning War was thanks to the Reapers. Their Mass Relay Networks are what allowed the Quarians to retreat back into the heavily developed and united and Council and Council Aligned space. Which again was so developed and connected because of the Mass Relay Networks. Given how far Quarian space is from the other races and given the limitations of space travel even with FTL without the Relays. It would be hundreds of years before the Quarians found another developed race. And while we do not know for sure what their situation was in terms of resources in the Fleet when they fled Rannoch. But they are clearly heavily dependent on the other races for supplies and ships. And entire coming of age ceremony were young Quarians venture outside of the Fleet into the wider galaxy to find something useful or hire themselves out for credits for the Fleet to be able to buy things it needs. Various conversations with Quarians show how much the Quarians rely on cast off things other races just throw away. They find them and refit or strip them for parts to help the Fleet be maintained.
But the few hundred thousand or so Quarians with only what ever could be loaded onto ships thrown into the void with no one to help around and just what they brought with them to survive. I'd argue that Quarians would slowly die in space long before reaching any planet they could colonize or any other developed planet that could help them.
Save that the Reapers were enabling the conflict between organics and machines (Sov more or less says as much). That's not really caring at all, that's more like fatting up the pig for slaugther.
|
|
inherit
Glorious Star Lord
822
0
16,819
KaiserShep
Party like it's 2023!
9,233
August 2016
kaisershep
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by KaiserShep on Jul 5, 2020 16:24:04 GMT
The Reapers want to prevent war between organics and synthetics but due to fundamental aspects of what each group is this is an impossibility in the long term. So they settle for a compromise of harvesting all technologically advanced life every 50,000 years. Harvesting them before they get to far advanced in tech to create synthetic life that is capable of wiping them out. So they keep hitting the reset button on a galactic scale each time it reaches a certain point.
Reapers do not care about individual races they care about organic life as a whole and as long as organic life still exists then they have done their job. Particularly because many races wouldn't exist in the first place without Reaper's actions. Humanity is the result of a long evolutionary path resulting from very specific events taking place. Had another space faring race colonized and build up Earth the chain of events that lead to humanity would be irreversibly altered and we suddenly don't exist as we are now if we exist at all. Humanity's existence is 100% dependent on the Reapers and without them we never would have existed at all.
When the time comes to harvest the galaxy there is only the harvest. There is no other point and any means to achieve that goal is acceptable to be utilized. Normally they use the Citadel but due to Prothean interference that option was disabled and so Sovereign created a plan B and utilized the Geth as a blunt force weapon to force his way onto the Citadel to open the Relay and let the Reapers flow in. There is no hypocrisy because they are simply going after a goal of harvest and perverse this cycle by any means necessary.
The fact the Quarians even survived the Morning War was thanks to the Reapers. Their Mass Relay Networks are what allowed the Quarians to retreat back into the heavily developed and united and Council and Council Aligned space. Which again was so developed and connected because of the Mass Relay Networks. Given how far Quarian space is from the other races and given the limitations of space travel even with FTL without the Relays. It would be hundreds of years before the Quarians found another developed race. And while we do not know for sure what their situation was in terms of resources in the Fleet when they fled Rannoch. But they are clearly heavily dependent on the other races for supplies and ships. And entire coming of age ceremony were young Quarians venture outside of the Fleet into the wider galaxy to find something useful or hire themselves out for credits for the Fleet to be able to buy things it needs. Various conversations with Quarians show how much the Quarians rely on cast off things other races just throw away. They find them and refit or strip them for parts to help the Fleet be maintained.
But the few hundred thousand or so Quarians with only what ever could be loaded onto ships thrown into the void with no one to help around and just what they brought with them to survive. I'd argue that Quarians would slowly die in space long before reaching any planet they could colonize or any other developed planet that could help them.
I guess the problem here is how successful (or otherwise) it is at selling this as being something that's truly impossible. Like, I get that the game wants us to buy the idea that some fundamental difference between organics and synthetics makes any prospect of coexistence impossible, yet the trilogy sells us the exact opposite idea. What it's really saying is that being sufficiently alien itself makes coexistence impossible. But, that's not something that really applies solely to synthetics then, such as the case with the rachni, and even then it wasn't really because of what people believed.
ME2 starts to pick apart the idea that this rebellion is absolutely doomed by showing us that the geth beyond the Veil were studying organics to understand them better. The funny thing is that the writers decided that instead of the geth simply being a monolithic race of hostiles, a number of them were instead coaxed into actively attacking other parts of the galaxy by the reapers. For a being looking to prevent war between synthetics and organics, it sure tried its damnedest to start one in the "present day" galactic society. What would have happened if Sovereign didn't interfere with the development of the geth, giving them dragon's teeth to impale people and turn them into husks? What if the geth were left alone to be stewards of Rannoch, hoping their creators would come around and learn to accept them? The reapers' interference essentially creates a self-fulfilling prophesy. The writers tried to flesh this out with Leviathan, but we're still just left with more of the same: it all happened in the past on a cycle, you have to believe me. But it was kind of too late. To make it worse, it just raises a bunch of other nagging questions, like what the Leviathan made its thralls do that led to the rise of their own synthetics. It's this interference with development that seems to be the issue, and the reapers seem to share this penchant with the race they originated from.
You say that humanity's existence is 100% dependent on the reapers, but there's no real evidence of that in the trilogy. We don't know much of anything about the thralls of the Leviathan, or the synthetics they created. Whatever conditions exist that various organic races would be "thralls" under some sort of overlord alien race in itself creates a lot of complications. Would these synthetics have spread out across the galaxy to just systematically wipe out everything else? The geth are our only frame of reference as a synthetic collective, and without Sovereign, they sure didn't seem like they were at all interested in doing that. Why would I feel that synthetics from some bygone era would be substantially different? Take the Zha'til. They didn't oppose the Zha because they were being subjugated. That didn't happen until the reapers hijacked them. The funny thing about this also is that the exact same thing happened with the rachni. It was external meddling that ultimately led to the rachni war. In the end, there's only one true example of a synthetic race that insists on coexistence being impossible, and that's the Intelligence itself.
|
|
inherit
2754
0
6,018
Son of Dorn
Fortifying everything.
6,312
Jan 11, 2017 14:17:27 GMT
January 2017
doomlolz
Dragon Age Inquisition
|
Post by Son of Dorn on Jul 5, 2020 16:30:20 GMT
The Reapers want to prevent war between organics and synthetics but due to fundamental aspects of what each group is this is an impossibility in the long term. So they settle for a compromise of harvesting all technologically advanced life every 50,000 years. Harvesting them before they get to far advanced in tech to create synthetic life that is capable of wiping them out. So they keep hitting the reset button on a galactic scale each time it reaches a certain point.
Reapers do not care about individual races they care about organic life as a whole and as long as organic life still exists then they have done their job. Particularly because many races wouldn't exist in the first place without Reaper's actions. Humanity is the result of a long evolutionary path resulting from very specific events taking place. Had another space faring race colonized and build up Earth the chain of events that lead to humanity would be irreversibly altered and we suddenly don't exist as we are now if we exist at all. Humanity's existence is 100% dependent on the Reapers and without them we never would have existed at all.
When the time comes to harvest the galaxy there is only the harvest. There is no other point and any means to achieve that goal is acceptable to be utilized. Normally they use the Citadel but due to Prothean interference that option was disabled and so Sovereign created a plan B and utilized the Geth as a blunt force weapon to force his way onto the Citadel to open the Relay and let the Reapers flow in. There is no hypocrisy because they are simply going after a goal of harvest and perverse this cycle by any means necessary.
The fact the Quarians even survived the Morning War was thanks to the Reapers. Their Mass Relay Networks are what allowed the Quarians to retreat back into the heavily developed and united and Council and Council Aligned space. Which again was so developed and connected because of the Mass Relay Networks. Given how far Quarian space is from the other races and given the limitations of space travel even with FTL without the Relays. It would be hundreds of years before the Quarians found another developed race. And while we do not know for sure what their situation was in terms of resources in the Fleet when they fled Rannoch. But they are clearly heavily dependent on the other races for supplies and ships. And entire coming of age ceremony were young Quarians venture outside of the Fleet into the wider galaxy to find something useful or hire themselves out for credits for the Fleet to be able to buy things it needs. Various conversations with Quarians show how much the Quarians rely on cast off things other races just throw away. They find them and refit or strip them for parts to help the Fleet be maintained.
But the few hundred thousand or so Quarians with only what ever could be loaded onto ships thrown into the void with no one to help around and just what they brought with them to survive. I'd argue that Quarians would slowly die in space long before reaching any planet they could colonize or any other developed planet that could help them.
I guess the problem here is how successful (or otherwise) it is at selling this as being something that's truly impossible. Like, I get that the game wants us to buy the idea that some fundamental difference between organics and synthetics makes any prospect of coexistence impossible, yet the trilogy sells us the exact opposite idea. What it's really saying is that being sufficiently alien itself makes coexistence impossible. But, that's not something that really applies solely to synthetics then, such as the case with the rachni, and even then it wasn't really because of what people believed.
ME2 starts to pick apart the idea that this rebellion is absolutely doomed by showing us that the geth beyond the Veil were studying organics to understand them better. The funny thing is that the writers decided that instead of the geth simply being a monolithic race of hostiles, a number of them were instead coaxed into actively attacking other parts of the galaxy by the reapers. For a being looking to prevent war between synthetics and organics, it sure tried its damnedest to start one in the "present day" galactic society. What would have happened if Sovereign didn't interfere with the development of the geth, giving them dragon's teeth to impale people and turn them into husks? What if the geth were left alone to be stewards of Rannoch, hoping their creators would come around and learn to accept them? The reapers' interference essentially creates a self-fulfilling prophesy. The writers tried to flesh this out with Leviathan, but we're still just left with more of the same: it all happened in the past on a cycle, you have to believe me. But it was kind of too late. To make it worse, it just raises a bunch of other nagging questions.
You say that humanity's existence is 100% dependent on the reapers, but there's no real evidence of that in the trilogy. We don't know much of anything about the thralls of the Leviathan, or the synthetics they created. Whatever conditions exist that various organic races would be "thralls" under some sort of overlord alien race in itself creates a lot of complications. Would these synthetics have spread out across the galaxy to just systematically wipe out everything else? The geth are our only frame of reference as a synthetic collective, and without Sovereign, they sure didn't seem like they were at all interested in doing that. Why would I feel that synthetics from some bygone era would be substantially different? Take the Zha'til. They didn't oppose the Zha because they were being subjugated. That didn't happen until the reapers hijacked them. The funny thing about this also is that the exact same thing happened with the rachni. It was external meddling that ultimately led to the rachni war. In the end, there's only one true example of a synthetic race that insists on coexistence being impossible, and that's the Intelligence itself.
It also begs the question: how many times has the Reapers set machines against organics in the past?
|
|
inherit
Glorious Star Lord
822
0
16,819
KaiserShep
Party like it's 2023!
9,233
August 2016
kaisershep
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by KaiserShep on Jul 5, 2020 16:36:22 GMT
I guess the problem here is how successful (or otherwise) it is at selling this as being something that's truly impossible. Like, I get that the game wants us to buy the idea that some fundamental difference between organics and synthetics makes any prospect of coexistence impossible, yet the trilogy sells us the exact opposite idea. What it's really saying is that being sufficiently alien itself makes coexistence impossible. But, that's not something that really applies solely to synthetics then, such as the case with the rachni, and even then it wasn't really because of what people believed.
ME2 starts to pick apart the idea that this rebellion is absolutely doomed by showing us that the geth beyond the Veil were studying organics to understand them better. The funny thing is that the writers decided that instead of the geth simply being a monolithic race of hostiles, a number of them were instead coaxed into actively attacking other parts of the galaxy by the reapers. For a being looking to prevent war between synthetics and organics, it sure tried its damnedest to start one in the "present day" galactic society. What would have happened if Sovereign didn't interfere with the development of the geth, giving them dragon's teeth to impale people and turn them into husks? What if the geth were left alone to be stewards of Rannoch, hoping their creators would come around and learn to accept them? The reapers' interference essentially creates a self-fulfilling prophesy. The writers tried to flesh this out with Leviathan, but we're still just left with more of the same: it all happened in the past on a cycle, you have to believe me. But it was kind of too late. To make it worse, it just raises a bunch of other nagging questions.
You say that humanity's existence is 100% dependent on the reapers, but there's no real evidence of that in the trilogy. We don't know much of anything about the thralls of the Leviathan, or the synthetics they created. Whatever conditions exist that various organic races would be "thralls" under some sort of overlord alien race in itself creates a lot of complications. Would these synthetics have spread out across the galaxy to just systematically wipe out everything else? The geth are our only frame of reference as a synthetic collective, and without Sovereign, they sure didn't seem like they were at all interested in doing that. Why would I feel that synthetics from some bygone era would be substantially different? Take the Zha'til. They didn't oppose the Zha because they were being subjugated. That didn't happen until the reapers hijacked them. The funny thing about this also is that the exact same thing happened with the rachni. It was external meddling that ultimately led to the rachni war. In the end, there's only one true example of a synthetic race that insists on coexistence being impossible, and that's the Intelligence itself.
It also begs the question: how many times has the Reapers set machines against organics in the past?
We know at least that it did the exact same thing in both cycles. Regarding the Metacom war, it's not stated or implied that the reapers had anything to do with them, but we know from Javik's account that the protheans were actually winning. This in itself kind of damages the premise that any conflict would end in organics being eliminated. So I guess the question is whether or not the fact that synthetics might simply be erased from existence in the event of a rebellion is cause for a systematic extermination very few tens of thousands of years. If the Quarians successfully snuffed out the geth, would the galaxy have been any worse off? Its effects would probably not be felt for even hundreds of thousands of years, if ever.
|
|
inherit
2754
0
6,018
Son of Dorn
Fortifying everything.
6,312
Jan 11, 2017 14:17:27 GMT
January 2017
doomlolz
Dragon Age Inquisition
|
Post by Son of Dorn on Jul 5, 2020 16:41:14 GMT
It also begs the question: how many times has the Reapers set machines against organics in the past?
We know at least that it did the exact same thing in both cycles. Regarding the Metacom war, it's not stated or implied that the reapers had anything to do with them, but we know from Javik's account that the protheans were actually winning. This in itself kind of damages the premise that any conflict would end in organics being eliminated. So I guess the question is whether or not the fact that synthetics might simply be erased from existence in the event of a rebellion is cause for a systematic extermination very few tens of thousands of years. If the Quarians successfully snuffed out the geth, would the galaxy have been any worse off? Its effects would probably not be felt for even hundreds of thousands of years, if ever.
Also, the protheans didn't create the Metacons right? So who exactly made them? I don't really remember what Javik said in regards to their origin.
|
|
inherit
Glorious Star Lord
822
0
16,819
KaiserShep
Party like it's 2023!
9,233
August 2016
kaisershep
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by KaiserShep on Jul 5, 2020 16:53:26 GMT
We know at least that it did the exact same thing in both cycles. Regarding the Metacom war, it's not stated or implied that the reapers had anything to do with them, but we know from Javik's account that the protheans were actually winning. This in itself kind of damages the premise that any conflict would end in organics being eliminated. So I guess the question is whether or not the fact that synthetics might simply be erased from existence in the event of a rebellion is cause for a systematic extermination very few tens of thousands of years. If the Quarians successfully snuffed out the geth, would the galaxy have been any worse off? Its effects would probably not be felt for even hundreds of thousands of years, if ever.
Also, the protheans didn't create the Metacons right? So who exactly made them? I don't really remember what Javik said in regards to their origin.
There's no details about where the machines come from. We only know that the protheans were fighting them, but were blindsided by the reapers at the turning point of the war.
|
|
inherit
2754
0
6,018
Son of Dorn
Fortifying everything.
6,312
Jan 11, 2017 14:17:27 GMT
January 2017
doomlolz
Dragon Age Inquisition
|
Post by Son of Dorn on Jul 5, 2020 16:59:57 GMT
Also, the protheans didn't create the Metacons right? So who exactly made them? I don't really remember what Javik said in regards to their origin.
There's no details about where the machines come from. We only know that the protheans were fighting them, but were blindsided by the reapers at the turning point of the war.
I would say that I am surprised by the lack of details from it, but that would be a lie. It seems to be a trend whenever you try to look for more information in the MET about what went down in the other cycles, there's little to no information. But thanks for telling me anyway.
|
|
sjsharp2010
N7
Go Team!
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Mass Effect Andromeda, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition, Dragon Age The Veilguard
Posts: 12,987 Likes: 21,021
Member is Online
inherit
2309
0
Member is Online
21,021
sjsharp2010
Go Team!
12,987
December 2016
sjsharp2010
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Mass Effect Andromeda, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition, Dragon Age The Veilguard
|
Post by sjsharp2010 on Jul 5, 2020 17:31:48 GMT
Do not feed the trolls people.Some just come here to argue and insult the developers without suggesting any solutions to the problems they themselves are pointing out. They are unable to since they have nothing to offer in terms of skill, creativity or even imagination. I don't know if we've talked about the only thing that would actually be wrong with remaking the Mass Effect Trilogy: the short span between the last game and this supposed remake. To clarify, I don't think there is a method were one should say "For thy game to be remade thou must have at least a score of years before thy remake"... but it should probably be that one. I can still play and enjoy the entire trilogy and feel how it's up to date and still relevant in many respects. Saying it's aged like fine wine is an understatement to me.
Thus, it just seems a bit too soon to even start thinking about remaking Mass Effect. Yeah tb hothe rthan maybe rerelease it fo tthe PS4 so Playstatoin owners can play it again they don' treally need t odo anything with it. It certainly doesn' tneed a remaster or remake. I'd rathe rthe yfocus on hte futuer of the franchise than drag up old stuff in this instance because as you sa ythe trilogy and MEA work jus tfine on both Xbox and on PC t ohte extent tha tthere is n need t ogo through that trouble. Especially as I doub tEA would earn that big a pay day out of it.
|
|
sjsharp2010
N7
Go Team!
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Mass Effect Andromeda, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition, Dragon Age The Veilguard
Posts: 12,987 Likes: 21,021
Member is Online
inherit
2309
0
Member is Online
21,021
sjsharp2010
Go Team!
12,987
December 2016
sjsharp2010
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Mass Effect Andromeda, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition, Dragon Age The Veilguard
|
Post by sjsharp2010 on Jul 5, 2020 17:35:40 GMT
We know at least that it did the exact same thing in both cycles. Regarding the Metacom war, it's not stated or implied that the reapers had anything to do with them, but we know from Javik's account that the protheans were actually winning. This in itself kind of damages the premise that any conflict would end in organics being eliminated. So I guess the question is whether or not the fact that synthetics might simply be erased from existence in the event of a rebellion is cause for a systematic extermination very few tens of thousands of years. If the Quarians successfully snuffed out the geth, would the galaxy have been any worse off? Its effects would probably not be felt for even hundreds of thousands of years, if ever.
Also, the protheans didn't create the Metacons right? So who exactly made them? I don't really remember what Javik said in regards to their origin. It's likely one of the slave/subserviant races as Javik calls them that made the Metacon's but as has alerad ybeen mentoined he didn' t say who made them.
|
|
inherit
2754
0
6,018
Son of Dorn
Fortifying everything.
6,312
Jan 11, 2017 14:17:27 GMT
January 2017
doomlolz
Dragon Age Inquisition
|
Post by Son of Dorn on Jul 5, 2020 17:42:41 GMT
Also, the protheans didn't create the Metacons right? So who exactly made them? I don't really remember what Javik said in regards to their origin. It's likely one of the slave/subserviant races as Javik calls them that made the Metacon's but as has alerad ybeen mentoined he didn' t say who made them. Then it's something that should have been in the game. As it's vital information in regards to the game's backstory.
|
|
sjsharp2010
N7
Go Team!
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Mass Effect Andromeda, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition, Dragon Age The Veilguard
Posts: 12,987 Likes: 21,021
Member is Online
inherit
2309
0
Member is Online
21,021
sjsharp2010
Go Team!
12,987
December 2016
sjsharp2010
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Mass Effect Andromeda, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition, Dragon Age The Veilguard
|
Post by sjsharp2010 on Jul 5, 2020 17:55:00 GMT
It's likely one of the slave/subserviant races as Javik calls them that made the Metacon's but as has alerad ybeen mentoined he didn' t say who made them. Then it's something that should have been in the game. As it's vital information in regards to the game's backstory. Not really as we're not fighting the Metacons or the people that made them in our cycle as they no longer exist.
|
|
inherit
2754
0
6,018
Son of Dorn
Fortifying everything.
6,312
Jan 11, 2017 14:17:27 GMT
January 2017
doomlolz
Dragon Age Inquisition
|
Post by Son of Dorn on Jul 5, 2020 18:06:13 GMT
Then it's something that should have been in the game. As it's vital information in regards to the game's backstory. Not reall yas we're not fightin the Metacons or the peopl etha tmade them in our cycle as the yno longer exist. First of all, clean up your post, it's hard to read. Second, it's information in regards to the last cycle. And seeing as it wasn't the protheans that made them, then why did the Reapers attack them in the first place?
|
|
inherit
1480
0
1,080
gothpunkboy89
2,311
September 2016
gothpunkboy89
|
Post by gothpunkboy89 on Jul 5, 2020 18:31:32 GMT
The Reapers want to prevent war between organics and synthetics but due to fundamental aspects of what each group is this is an impossibility in the long term. So they settle for a compromise of harvesting all technologically advanced life every 50,000 years. Harvesting them before they get to far advanced in tech to create synthetic life that is capable of wiping them out. So they keep hitting the reset button on a galactic scale each time it reaches a certain point.
Reapers do not care about individual races they care about organic life as a whole and as long as organic life still exists then they have done their job. Particularly because many races wouldn't exist in the first place without Reaper's actions. Humanity is the result of a long evolutionary path resulting from very specific events taking place. Had another space faring race colonized and build up Earth the chain of events that lead to humanity would be irreversibly altered and we suddenly don't exist as we are now if we exist at all. Humanity's existence is 100% dependent on the Reapers and without them we never would have existed at all.
When the time comes to harvest the galaxy there is only the harvest. There is no other point and any means to achieve that goal is acceptable to be utilized. Normally they use the Citadel but due to Prothean interference that option was disabled and so Sovereign created a plan B and utilized the Geth as a blunt force weapon to force his way onto the Citadel to open the Relay and let the Reapers flow in. There is no hypocrisy because they are simply going after a goal of harvest and perverse this cycle by any means necessary.
The fact the Quarians even survived the Morning War was thanks to the Reapers. Their Mass Relay Networks are what allowed the Quarians to retreat back into the heavily developed and united and Council and Council Aligned space. Which again was so developed and connected because of the Mass Relay Networks. Given how far Quarian space is from the other races and given the limitations of space travel even with FTL without the Relays. It would be hundreds of years before the Quarians found another developed race. And while we do not know for sure what their situation was in terms of resources in the Fleet when they fled Rannoch. But they are clearly heavily dependent on the other races for supplies and ships. And entire coming of age ceremony were young Quarians venture outside of the Fleet into the wider galaxy to find something useful or hire themselves out for credits for the Fleet to be able to buy things it needs. Various conversations with Quarians show how much the Quarians rely on cast off things other races just throw away. They find them and refit or strip them for parts to help the Fleet be maintained.
But the few hundred thousand or so Quarians with only what ever could be loaded onto ships thrown into the void with no one to help around and just what they brought with them to survive. I'd argue that Quarians would slowly die in space long before reaching any planet they could colonize or any other developed planet that could help them.
I guess the problem here is how successful (or otherwise) it is at selling this as being something that's truly impossible. Like, I get that the game wants us to buy the idea that some fundamental difference between organics and synthetics makes any prospect of coexistence impossible, yet the trilogy sells us the exact opposite idea. What it's really saying is that being sufficiently alien itself makes coexistence impossible. But, that's not something that really applies solely to synthetics then, such as the case with the rachni, and even then it wasn't really because of what people believed.
ME2 starts to pick apart the idea that this rebellion is absolutely doomed by showing us that the geth beyond the Veil were studying organics to understand them better. The funny thing is that the writers decided that instead of the geth simply being a monolithic race of hostiles, a number of them were instead coaxed into actively attacking other parts of the galaxy by the reapers. For a being looking to prevent war between synthetics and organics, it sure tried its damnedest to start one in the "present day" galactic society. What would have happened if Sovereign didn't interfere with the development of the geth, giving them dragon's teeth to impale people and turn them into husks? What if the geth were left alone to be stewards of Rannoch, hoping their creators would come around and learn to accept them? The reapers' interference essentially creates a self-fulfilling prophesy. The writers tried to flesh this out with Leviathan, but we're still just left with more of the same: it all happened in the past on a cycle, you have to believe me. But it was kind of too late. To make it worse, it just raises a bunch of other nagging questions, like what the Leviathan made its thralls do that led to the rise of their own synthetics. It's this interference with development that seems to be the issue, and the reapers seem to share this penchant with the race they originated from.
You say that humanity's existence is 100% dependent on the reapers, but there's no real evidence of that in the trilogy. We don't know much of anything about the thralls of the Leviathan, or the synthetics they created. Whatever conditions exist that various organic races would be "thralls" under some sort of overlord alien race in itself creates a lot of complications. Would these synthetics have spread out across the galaxy to just systematically wipe out everything else? The geth are our only frame of reference as a synthetic collective, and without Sovereign, they sure didn't seem like they were at all interested in doing that. Why would I feel that synthetics from some bygone era would be substantially different? Take the Zha'til. They didn't oppose the Zha because they were being subjugated. That didn't happen until the reapers hijacked them. The funny thing about this also is that the exact same thing happened with the rachni. It was external meddling that ultimately led to the rachni war. In the end, there's only one true example of a synthetic race that insists on coexistence being impossible, and that's the Intelligence itself.
Technological and social issues were synthetic life has the technological advantage to wipe out organic life because of the vastly different rates of evolution both on a physical and technological scale. This is shown in smaller scale though not as often as I would personally like with the Geth. Not only did they commit near whole sale genocide of the Quarians even thought he Quarians struck first and then were capable of leading a military strike into the heart of organic territory and if it were not for the Mass Relays the rest of the galaxy would not have been able to respond to it in time. This is further back up by Javik stating that they had to forcibly unite all organic life under their banner to win. Which was only possible thanks to the Mass Relays. And the Geth Flagship took a Quarian Frigate to the side and only resulted in a small hole rather then any serious damage. And the entire thermal clip concept was created by reverse engineering Geth weapons after the Battle of the Citadel.
And yet for all their capabilities the Geth are nothing more then the Ford Model A of synthetic life. EDI was created by reverse engineering Reaper tech literally takes over 1,000 Geth to have Legion operate on a similar level to her. And if 1,000 Geth are what it takes to equal 1 EDI just imagine what 1,000 EDIs would be capable of. And then realize that 1,000 EDIs might only be equal to a single Reaper and then realize what 1,000 Reapers are capable of.
The Geth also did nothing to warn the galaxy of the Heretics actions that could have spurred the Council into action a lot sooner then the Geth knocking at the Citadel's door. They didn't try to stop the Heretics even though their actions would lead to renewed hostilities and countless loss of life that they could have helped at least try and prevent. Instead they sat back and studied organic life doing nothing. Even if the True Geth are not openly hostile towards Organic life they still show they don't really give a shit and will not risk anything to help them or do anything that doesn't benefit themselves only. Hell Legion's entire mission wasn't to open up negotiations or help the organic races of the galaxy. But simply to find Shepard because they viewed Shepard's programing as superior and wanted to learn from it so they could stand against the Reapers.
In fact during the Rannoch arc the entire reasons used by Quarians and Geth for Shepard to side with them are both extremely selfish. Quarians wanting revenge for past actions and that the Geth are a threat while the Geth push how useful they could be against the Reapers compared to Quarians to allow the upload to happen.
I also do not dismiss the fact that Legion could be omitting facts. Not out right lying but omitting certain details that paints the Geth in a more idealized picture. Given it was literally held at gun point by people who would kill it. Given legion likes to omit the whole billion or so Quarians killed. Far beyond any need for self defense and survival. And there is no way the Geth were aware enough to organize effective counter attacks AND let the Quarians go because they were no longer a threat and yet magically at the same time not aware of the amount of death and destruction and needless deaths they were causing. The Geth knowingly and methodically reduced the Quarian population to a fraction of their former size and then engaged a shoot on sight order of their boarders. I do not doubt that the Geth let the Quarians go though the Relay because they were no longer a threat. I also do not doubt the Geth realized that following the Quarians though the Relay would rouse the wrath of the Council races and it would result in fleets of Salarian, Asari and Turian ships swarming though the Relays like angry hornets intent on wiping out the Geth at any means necessary. So they choose to not provoke any of the other races.
As for the future of the Geth it depends. The Geth are never shown or hinted to actually be improving themselves or engaging in any form of reproduction. No 5th generation Geth that are capable of 5x the capabilities as first generation Morning War Geth. We get some little bit about their matrix becoming closer and closer to full AI but nothing about the exponential evolution synthetic life is capable of. And if the sphere was the result of the Reapers or a plan the Geth had for hundreds of years the odds are they would have simply disappeared into the void to eventually become a singular true AI. Or at least slowly develop into true AI status were a single Geth is a fully sentience and aware individual rather then needing dozens to hundreds to thousands of Geth networked together to achieve the same thing. At that point individualism is capable as they are not dependent on each other for basic capabilities. Once individualism comes into play the bets are off as the Geth as they are in the series shown they can be swayed by arguments. Once individuals exist even with input from the greater Geth group it could lead to more and more factions and some of those factions could become violent due to past actions. That violence would feed more negativity against the Geth which would lead to more Geth accepting the logic. Mass build up of Fleets and expansion of territories. Done in self defense but taken as hostile actions by individuals who strike back fanning the flames of war even more. Then a single instance sparks an all out war were the Geth's technological superiority over whelms the sheer numbers as the Geth engage in all out attrition wars like wiping out entire garden planets with orbital strikes or using asteroids.
Although if you want full "without Reaper effect" Then the Quarians die in the vast void of space due to no Relays unable to maintain their ships or produce anything to repair it on large scale. Leaving their craft floating though the void. While the Geth without knowing other races exist continue to expand and grow into a large empire. Their first contact with even primitive life would develop problems of communication and hostility and since Quarians were their only contact with organic life would result in more hostilities which would further support that Organic life is a threat. Or they have another Krogan issue were they try to uplift the primitive race and give them weapons they are not prepared to have which are then turned against them again leading to conflict and confirming that organic life can not be trusted. Any race that has achived space travel or interstellar travel would be a massive threat and would have to be neutralized simply to protect the Geth.
Of course all of this is pretty irrelevant because the Reapers were not responsible for the Morning War. During which both the Geth and Quarians were more then willing to fight a genocidal war of attrition against each other resulting in the death of billions. With neither side backing down or considering what they are doing might be wrong until well after the conflict.
Humanity's ancient furry mouse ancestor is killed off by expansion of resource mining and pollution of the local area. Thus the furry mouse ancestor doesn't eventually evovel into an ape like creature that slowly evolves into humanity. The introduction of alien animals could hunt our ancient ape like ancestor into extinction or be captured and be bred like wolves until we got pugs and corgis. Or being take into an intergalactic war that resulted in the planet being devastated by an attacking force that orbital bombarded the planet until it was incapable of supporting life.
Evolution is a fickle mistress and great examples are the Kakapo birds of New Zealand. Due to no natural predators it is the world's only flightless parrot. And the introduction of dogs and cats and other predatory animals to the island have devastated the Kakapo's population requiring deliberate and extensive protection by humans to keep them from going extinct. Or an actual version the Dodo that was rendered extinct due to over hunting and introduction of foreign predators to their habitats.
|
|
Highwayman667
N3
"In uncertainty, find infinite possibility"
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire
Posts: 522 Likes: 724
inherit
11507
0
Jun 22, 2021 18:16:33 GMT
724
Highwayman667
"In uncertainty, find infinite possibility"
522
May 10, 2020 13:11:01 GMT
May 2020
highwayman667
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire
|
Post by Highwayman667 on Jul 5, 2020 19:20:40 GMT
And why would anyone waste their time coming up with solutions when it would lead to nothing? There's far more interesting things to do then coming up with solutions that'll be pointless to come up with. Plus, no one would get paid to do it, so again it's pointless. It would lead to a more productive discussion, which is never a bad thing... unless you somehow took pleasure and joy in insulting the developers of the games you and me play without offering anything constructive for it. But I feel confident you're not, so that's why
|
|
inherit
2754
0
6,018
Son of Dorn
Fortifying everything.
6,312
Jan 11, 2017 14:17:27 GMT
January 2017
doomlolz
Dragon Age Inquisition
|
Post by Son of Dorn on Jul 5, 2020 19:27:36 GMT
And why would anyone waste their time coming up with solutions when it would lead to nothing? There's far more interesting things to do then coming up with solutions that'll be pointless to come up with. Plus, no one would get paid to do it, so again it's pointless. It would lead to a more productive discussion, which is never a bad thing ... ... unless you somehow took pleasure and joy in insulting the developers of the games you and me play without offering anything constructive for it. But I feel confident you're not, so that's why No, because writing for me is a past time hobby of mine. Having to go through the whole of MET again and finding all the things broken with it doesn't sound like fun, but hard work. And seeing as how I like to get paid for doing hard work, I don't feel inclined to waste my personal time going through a game I no longer enjoy playing.
|
|