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Post by Son of Dorn on Jul 12, 2020 19:16:37 GMT
I didn't really follow this thread and the weird Warhammer debate... But I felt like popping in to say that the reaper logic is REALLY not difficult to understand. And I'm amazed that so many people still think this entire twist makes no sense. The ONLY thing that matters to the reapers is preventing synthetic life from wiping out organic life altogether. They don't care about individual organic races or individual lives. It's only about keeping organic life around in some way. If they have to kill 99% of organic life to ensure that 1% survive, that's still acceptable and within their logic. There is no contradiction here. There's IRONY here that the reapers are doing the very thing that they're trying to prevent in a sense. But it's still NOT a contradiction because the reapers do not kill ALL organic life. That's the point. Whether or not that's clever writing is up for debate. But the reaper logic is very SIMPLE and easy to understand and LOGICAL in a very brutal utilitarian way. Their methods are so horrifying that no sane organic mind would ever come up with it. Because our own short existence rebels against the idea of being a casualty for the continued existence of life elsewhere. Humanity can't even take care of Earth for the sake of our children's future. The only thing that's alien about the reaper logic is that they don't value individual lives or even individual races. They "preserve" their memory but that's no consolation when that race is dead now. Since there is no such thing as an individual to a synthetic, they don't even understand what the problem is. Why are you stupid organics upset we're going to liquify you? We're preserving your knowledge. Ain't that neat?! Organics are very much wrapped up in their own self importance. And we struggle to think beyond our own existence. That doesn't make the reaper logic nonsense. Of course the question remains if synthetics would really wipe out all organic life. Considering that the catalyst is an AI and NOT doing that, this kind of puts the PREMISE in question. So we should absolutely question if the cycle is really necessary. But the logic of the cycle itself is really simple. It gets the job done. My two cents on a 8 year old discussion that still hasn't changed a bit. Ah the nostalgia... That's just Gothpunk trying to use things to fuel his "argument". The cycle itself is dumb, as it doesn't solve anything, it just resets everything back to zero. |
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Post by Radec on Jul 12, 2020 19:27:33 GMT
Of course the question remains if synthetics would really wipe out all organic life. Considering that the catalyst is an AI and NOT doing that, this kind of puts the PREMISE in question. So we should absolutely question if the cycle is really necessary. But the logic of the cycle itself is really simple. It gets the job done. My two cents on a 8 year old discussion that still hasn't changed a bit. Ah the nostalgia... Yeah, unless the Catalyst presents evidence that some or all AI's civilizations invariably evolve into ones trying to wipe the universe clean of organic structures down to the amino acid so that life can never evolve, develop sapience and eventually kill itself with robots in the first place, the premise of their mission makes no sense. Why are highly intelligent organic civilizations destroying themselves with AI's even an issue to an AI that destroys highly intelligent organic civilizations on a 50,000 year schedule? It seems invariable that new life is going to evolve either way, which makes their presence ultimately meaningless. They neither protect individual organic civilizations from their own AI creations (It's also never explained why they can't simply do this to preserve organics instead, until Shepard picks blue and now they can apparently), nor are they required for sapient organics to continue to evolve and exist (which the writers of Andromeda essentially confirmed by that galaxy not being a barren wasteland filled with genocidal AI's).
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Post by gothpunkboy89 on Jul 12, 2020 20:12:29 GMT
I didn't really follow this thread and the weird Warhammer debate... But I felt like popping in to say that the reaper logic is REALLY not difficult to understand. And I'm amazed that so many people still think this entire twist makes no sense. The ONLY thing that matters to the reapers is preventing synthetic life from wiping out organic life altogether. They don't care about individual organic races or individual lives. It's only about keeping organic life around in some way. If they have to kill 99% of organic life to ensure that 1% survive, that's still acceptable and within their logic. There is no contradiction here. There's IRONY here that the reapers are doing the very thing that they're trying to prevent in a sense. But it's still NOT a contradiction because the reapers do not kill ALL organic life. That's the point. Whether or not that's clever writing is up for debate. But the reaper logic is very SIMPLE and easy to understand and LOGICAL in a very brutal utilitarian way. Their methods are so horrifying that no sane organic mind would ever come up with it. Because our own short existence rebels against the idea of being a casualty for the continued existence of life elsewhere. Humanity can't even take care of Earth for the sake of our children's future. The only thing that's alien about the reaper logic is that they don't value individual lives or even individual races. They "preserve" their memory but that's no consolation when that race is dead now. Since there is no such thing as an individual to a synthetic, they don't even understand what the problem is. Why are you stupid organics upset we're going to liquify you? We're preserving your knowledge. Ain't that neat?! Organics are very much wrapped up in their own self importance. And we struggle to think beyond our own existence. That doesn't make the reaper logic nonsense. Of course the question remains if synthetics would really wipe out all organic life. Considering that the catalyst is an AI and NOT doing that, this kind of puts the PREMISE in question. So we should absolutely question if the cycle is really necessary. But the logic of the cycle itself is really simple. It gets the job done. My two cents on a 8 year old discussion that still hasn't changed a bit. Ah the nostalgia... Warhammer debate was just because it was a useful source to try and enforce my points by someone else who knows about Warhammer 40k. As the series is very much one that relies on the various different views of the different factions to validate their actions. As there are no true good or evil simply groups trying to survive in a galaxy that wants nothing more then to snuff out their existence. And then a joke how the Leviathan's capabilities go beyond biotic abilities and stray into the psyker abilities shown in 40k. As the ability to completely override and utterly control someone's mind that they would could potentially have no consciousness for their entire biological life span save the few seconds before death goes well beyond simply being able to manipulate dark energy of normal biotics.
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Post by gothpunkboy89 on Jul 12, 2020 20:14:07 GMT
I didn't really follow this thread and the weird Warhammer debate... But I felt like popping in to say that the reaper logic is REALLY not difficult to understand. And I'm amazed that so many people still think this entire twist makes no sense. The ONLY thing that matters to the reapers is preventing synthetic life from wiping out organic life altogether. They don't care about individual organic races or individual lives. It's only about keeping organic life around in some way. If they have to kill 99% of organic life to ensure that 1% survive, that's still acceptable and within their logic. There is no contradiction here. There's IRONY here that the reapers are doing the very thing that they're trying to prevent in a sense. But it's still NOT a contradiction because the reapers do not kill ALL organic life. That's the point. Whether or not that's clever writing is up for debate. But the reaper logic is very SIMPLE and easy to understand and LOGICAL in a very brutal utilitarian way. Their methods are so horrifying that no sane organic mind would ever come up with it. Because our own short existence rebels against the idea of being a casualty for the continued existence of life elsewhere. Humanity can't even take care of Earth for the sake of our children's future. The only thing that's alien about the reaper logic is that they don't value individual lives or even individual races. They "preserve" their memory but that's no consolation when that race is dead now. Since there is no such thing as an individual to a synthetic, they don't even understand what the problem is. Why are you stupid organics upset we're going to liquify you? We're preserving your knowledge. Ain't that neat?! Organics are very much wrapped up in their own self importance. And we struggle to think beyond our own existence. That doesn't make the reaper logic nonsense. Of course the question remains if synthetics would really wipe out all organic life. Considering that the catalyst is an AI and NOT doing that, this kind of puts the PREMISE in question. So we should absolutely question if the cycle is really necessary. But the logic of the cycle itself is really simple. It gets the job done. My two cents on a 8 year old discussion that still hasn't changed a bit. Ah the nostalgia... That's just Gothpunk trying to use things to fuel his "argument". The cycle itself is dumb, as it doesn't solve anything, it just resets everything back to zero. That is the point of the cycle. The catalyst has a problem with no solution so they reset the board back to start over and over again as the only way to solve the problem.
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Post by Son of Dorn on Jul 12, 2020 20:20:03 GMT
That's just Gothpunk trying to use things to fuel his "argument". The cycle itself is dumb, as it doesn't solve anything, it just resets everything back to zero. That is the point of the cycle. The catalyst has a problem with no solution so they reset the board back to start over and over again as the only way to solve the problem. |
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Post by Kappa Neko on Jul 12, 2020 21:23:09 GMT
The cycle itself is dumb, as it doesn't solve anything, it just resets everything back to zero. Yes and no. It doesn't solve the conflict but it DOES ensure that organic life is not entirely wiped out. Assuming this would really happen. How else would you solve it? There's no real solution to a problem that is cyclical in nature! The cycle of building artificial life and then going to war against it would never be "solved" any other way. You could try to make peace in one particular case but elsewhere it starts all over again. So in a perverse way the only real solution is synthesis! So really IF, and it's a big if, synthetics would really wipe out all organic life without intervention then you're stuck with either the cycle or synthesis. I can't think of anything else less horrible that would do the trick for good. Can you? |
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Post by Son of Dorn on Jul 12, 2020 21:27:08 GMT
The cycle itself is dumb, as it doesn't solve anything, it just resets everything back to zero. Yes and no. It doesn't solve the conflict but it DOES ensure that organic life is not entirely wiped out. Assuming this would really happen. How else would you solve it? There's no real solution to a problem that is cyclical in nature! The cycle of building artificial life and then going to war against it would never be "solved" any other way. You could try to make peace in one particular case but elsewhere it starts all over again. So in a perverse way the only real solution is synthesis! So really IF, and it's a big if, synthetics would really wipe out all organic life without intervention then you're stuck with either the cycle or synthesis. I can't think of anything else less horrible that would do the trick for good. Can you? Keeping organic life in a pre Vectorial age? |
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Post by therevanchist25 on Jul 12, 2020 23:28:06 GMT
The cycle itself is dumb, as it doesn't solve anything, it just resets everything back to zero. Yes and no. It doesn't solve the conflict but it DOES ensure that organic life is not entirely wiped out. Assuming this would really happen. How else would you solve it? There's no real solution to a problem that is cyclical in nature! The cycle of building artificial life and then going to war against it would never be "solved" any other way. You could try to make peace in one particular case but elsewhere it starts all over again. So in a perverse way the only real solution is synthesis! So really IF, and it's a big if, synthetics would really wipe out all organic life without intervention then you're stuck with either the cycle or synthesis. I can't think of anything else less horrible that would do the trick for good. Can you? How about...just not making AI's?....We don't need AI's to pilot star ships or sift through piles of Data, they just make doing those things WAY easier. How about just accept some small manner of daily hardship and deal with things manually?
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Post by Son of Dorn on Jul 12, 2020 23:38:56 GMT
Yes and no. It doesn't solve the conflict but it DOES ensure that organic life is not entirely wiped out. Assuming this would really happen. How else would you solve it? There's no real solution to a problem that is cyclical in nature! The cycle of building artificial life and then going to war against it would never be "solved" any other way. You could try to make peace in one particular case but elsewhere it starts all over again. So in a perverse way the only real solution is synthesis! So really IF, and it's a big if, synthetics would really wipe out all organic life without intervention then you're stuck with either the cycle or synthesis. I can't think of anything else less horrible that would do the trick for good. Can you? How about...just not making AI's?....We don't need AI's to pilot star ships or sift through piles of Data, they just make doing those things WAY easier. How about just accept some small manner of daily hardship and deal with things manually? 👆This. And if you really need help with sorting out files on a computer, use a simple program and not some super advanced AI. Simples!  |
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Post by gothpunkboy89 on Jul 12, 2020 23:41:53 GMT
That is the point of the cycle. The catalyst has a problem with no solution so they reset the board back to start over and over again as the only way to solve the problem. It isn't insanity if it works and continues to work for millions of years. How about...just not making AI's?....We don't need AI's to pilot star ships or sift through piles of Data, they just make doing those things WAY easier. How about just accept some small manner of daily hardship and deal with things manually? The Geth would like to introduce themselves. A group of collective intelligence that were slowly evolving their way to full AI status. All created without actually intending to create AI while it was illegal to create AI.
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Post by therevanchist25 on Jul 12, 2020 23:46:12 GMT
It isn't insanity if it works and continues to work for millions of years. How about...just not making AI's?....We don't need AI's to pilot star ships or sift through piles of Data, they just make doing those things WAY easier. How about just accept some small manner of daily hardship and deal with things manually? The Geth would like to introduce themselves. A group of collective intelligence that were slowly evolving their way to full AI status. All created without actually intending to create AI while it was illegal to create AI. What part of the bolded statement did you not understand? the Geth were created to replace manual labor, because the Quarian's didn't want to bother doing those jobs themselves anymore. The entire Geth problem is avoided if the Quarians just suck it up and, pardon my french, go Pick their own damn Cotton.
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Post by Son of Dorn on Jul 12, 2020 23:50:08 GMT
It isn't insanity if it works and continues to work for millions of years. The Geth would like to introduce themselves. A group of collective intelligence that were slowly evolving their way to full AI status. All created without actually intending to create AI while it was illegal to create AI. What part of the bolded statement did you not understand? the Geth were created to replace manual labor, because the Quarian's didn't want to bother doing those jobs themselves anymore. The entire Geth problem is avoided if the Quarians just suck it up and, pardon my french, go Pick their own damn Cotton. He kinda does that, twists what you have posted. But yeah, the quarians did a stupid for creating the geth. |
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Post by therevanchist25 on Jul 13, 2020 0:07:19 GMT
As far as "everything wrong with ME3" goes, I vastly prefer this man's take on it.
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Post by Radec on Jul 13, 2020 2:08:59 GMT
Yes and no. It doesn't solve the conflict but it DOES ensure that organic life is not entirely wiped out. Assuming this would really happen. How else would you solve it? There's no real solution to a problem that is cyclical in nature! The cycle of building artificial life and then going to war against it would never be "solved" any other way. You could try to make peace in one particular case but elsewhere it starts all over again. So in a perverse way the only real solution is synthesis! So really IF, and it's a big if, synthetics would really wipe out all organic life without intervention then you're stuck with either the cycle or synthesis. I can't think of anything else less horrible that would do the trick for good. Can you? How about...just not making AI's?....We don't need AI's to pilot star ships or sift through piles of Data, they just make doing those things WAY easier. How about just accept some small manner of daily hardship and deal with things manually? Few fundamental problems with this 1) how do you even define what is an "AI" in a regulatory sense? In universe, the Council already tried this approach and failed. The Geth as constructed by the quarians were VI's and completely within the Council's existing laws against AI. Those laws failed to avert catastrophe, they simply made the eventual AI, when it evolved, take on an even more alien form than say EDI or SAM, and thus have even less understanding of or sympathy for the organics they were destroying 2) Even if you could come up with a perfect regulatory regime how does one enforce it? Are the Batarians or the Terminus authorities going to give a shit about Council law? You'd need an expansionist and totalitarian political system to ensure compliance (e.g. Prothean Empire, which ultimately failed) 3) Adding to point 2, even if you somehow had the first two you can't account for independent actors as is. Developing AI isn't something that requires an entire scientific and military industrial complex to accomplish like say building Nuclear weapons. A small group or even one guy with enough processing power can do it in a "garage" operation. Alec Ryder does it with SAM. So does Cerberus with EDI and Overlord, as well as the Quiet Eddy facility By refusing to develop AI you'd simply be putting yourself behind the curve in an arms race against potentially less scrupulous opponents who will have no such qualms. The technology gives such an advantage that political actors can't simply ban themselves from using it without the risk of being out developed and destroyed by those which don't. Indeed, real world discussions on this issue by those in the field seem to agree that attempting to regulate AI is a fool's errand. issues.org/perspective-should-artificial-intelligence-be-regulated/
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Post by therevanchist25 on Jul 13, 2020 2:42:01 GMT
How about...just not making AI's?....We don't need AI's to pilot star ships or sift through piles of Data, they just make doing those things WAY easier. How about just accept some small manner of daily hardship and deal with things manually? Few fundamental problems with this 1) how do you even define what is an "AI" in a regulatory sense? In universe, the Council already tried this approach and failed. The Geth as constructed by the quarians were VI's and completely within the Council's existing laws against AI. Those laws failed to avert catastrophe, they simply made the eventual AI, when it evolved, take on an even more alien form than say EDI or SAM, and thus have even less understanding of or sympathy for the organics they were destroying 2) Even if you could come up with a perfect regulatory regime how does one enforce it? Are the Batarians or the Terminus authorities going to give a shit about Council law? You'd need an expansionist and totalitarian political system to ensure compliance (e.g. Prothean Empire, which ultimately failed) 3) Adding to point 2, even if you somehow had the first two you can't account for independent actors as is. Developing AI isn't something that requires an entire scientific and military industrial complex to accomplish like say building Nuclear weapons. A small group or even one guy with enough processing power can do it in a "garage" operation. Alec Ryder does it with SAM. So does Cerberus with EDI and Overlord, as well as the Quiet Eddy facility By refusing to develop AI you'd simply be putting yourself behind the curve in an arms race against potentially less scrupulous opponents who will have no such qualms. The technology gives such an advantage that political actors can't simply ban themselves from using it without the risk of being out developed and destroyed by those which don't. Indeed, real world discussions on this issue by those in the field seem to agree that attempting to regulate AI is a fool's errand. issues.org/perspective-should-artificial-intelligence-be-regulated/ 2) I think in a post Reaper war world, most people will realize what a horrific concept AI is since it nearly destroyed the galaxy. This would cascade down through ages as new children are taught the horrors AI bring with historical evidence of the devastation the Reapers brought upon the galaxy. The Batarians basically no longer exist, and are a non factor. The Terminus is basically owned by Aria, let's just be honest. if you get her on board with the idea, her ruthless methods would likely sort the problem out eventually. As far as the Prothean Empire failing, it failed only because of Reapers, the entire crux of the argument. They were easily dealing with the regular Rogue AI of their Cycle. They were winning, and the problem would have been dealt with if not for Reaper interference. 3) True, you can't account for random dirt bags doing dirt bag things, that not does invalidate my point of "Just stop being lazy fucks and pick your own cotton". Alec Ryder was a fool, who made a ridiculous stupid AI that straight up kills someone via brain hemorrhage when it gets removed. Talk about cerebral AI slave. Andromeda only reinforced to me why AI is a horrible idea. 2.a) A Volus banker in ME3 mentions how the Galatic Economy is GOING to implode in like 1 years time, provided they win the war. imagine a post WW2 Europe without the US lending to everyone to stave off an economic dark age. Who the hell is going to even have the resources to do any of this research any time soon? The relays are all busted, the economy is gone, whole races are stranded in the middle of nowhere on warships until the relays get repaired. The level of devastation caused by hostile AI's is beyond words, I personally cannot imagine a society that would willingly take to AI development again after that.
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Dragon Age Inquisition
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Post by Son of Dorn on Jul 13, 2020 3:16:55 GMT
Few fundamental problems with this 1) how do you even define what is an "AI" in a regulatory sense? In universe, the Council already tried this approach and failed. The Geth as constructed by the quarians were VI's and completely within the Council's existing laws against AI. Those laws failed to avert catastrophe, they simply made the eventual AI, when it evolved, take on an even more alien form than say EDI or SAM, and thus have even less understanding of or sympathy for the organics they were destroying 2) Even if you could come up with a perfect regulatory regime how does one enforce it? Are the Batarians or the Terminus authorities going to give a shit about Council law? You'd need an expansionist and totalitarian political system to ensure compliance (e.g. Prothean Empire, which ultimately failed) 3) Adding to point 2, even if you somehow had the first two you can't account for independent actors as is. Developing AI isn't something that requires an entire scientific and military industrial complex to accomplish like say building Nuclear weapons. A small group or even one guy with enough processing power can do it in a "garage" operation. Alec Ryder does it with SAM. So does Cerberus with EDI and Overlord, as well as the Quiet Eddy facility By refusing to develop AI you'd simply be putting yourself behind the curve in an arms race against potentially less scrupulous opponents who will have no such qualms. The technology gives such an advantage that political actors can't simply ban themselves from using it without the risk of being out developed and destroyed by those which don't. Indeed, real world discussions on this issue by those in the field seem to agree that attempting to regulate AI is a fool's errand. issues.org/perspective-should-artificial-intelligence-be-regulated/2) I think in a post Reaper war world, most people will realize what a horrific concept AI is since it nearly destroyed the galaxy. This would cascade down through ages as new children are taught the horrors AI bring with historical evidence of the devastation the Reapers brought upon the galaxy. The Batarians basically no longer exist, and are a non factor. The Terminus is basically owned by Aria, let's just be honest. if you get her on board with the idea, her ruthless methods would likely sort the problem out eventually. As far as the Prothean Empire failing, it failed only because of Reapers, the entire crux of the argument. They were easily dealing with the regular Rogue AI of their Cycle. They were winning, and the problem would have been dealt with if not for Reaper interference. 3) True, you can't account for random dirt bags doing dirt bag things, that not does invalidate my point of "Just stop being lazy fucks and pick your own cotton". Alec Ryder was a fool, who made a ridiculous stupid AI that straight up kills someone via brain hemorrhage when it gets removed. Talk about cerebral AI slave. Andromeda only reinforced to me why AI is a horrible idea. 2.a) A Volus banker in ME3 mentions how the Galatic Economy is GOING to implode in like 1 years time, provided they win the war. imagine a post WW2 Europe without the US lending to everyone to stave off an economic dark age. Who the hell is going to even have the resources to do any of this research any time soon? The relays are all busted, the economy is gone, whole races are stranded in the middle of nowhere on warships until the relays get repaired. The level of devastation caused by hostile AI's is beyond words, I personally cannot imagine a society that would willingly take to AI development again after that. Something similar happened in W40K: warhammer40k.fandom.com/wiki/Men_of_Iron |
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Post by KaiserShep on Jul 13, 2020 4:06:27 GMT
I didn't really follow this thread and the weird Warhammer debate... But I felt like popping in to say that the reaper logic is REALLY not difficult to understand. And I'm amazed that so many people still think this entire twist makes no sense. The ONLY thing that matters to the reapers is preventing synthetic life from wiping out organic life altogether. They don't care about individual organic races or individual lives. It's only about keeping organic life around in some way. If they have to kill 99% of organic life to ensure that 1% survive, that's still acceptable and within their logic. There is no contradiction here. There's IRONY here that the reapers are doing the very thing that they're trying to prevent in a sense. But it's still NOT a contradiction because the reapers do not kill ALL organic life. That's the point. Whether or not that's clever writing is up for debate. But the reaper logic is very SIMPLE and easy to understand and LOGICAL in a very brutal utilitarian way. Their methods are so horrifying that no sane organic mind would ever come up with it. Because our own short existence rebels against the idea of being a casualty for the continued existence of life elsewhere. Humanity can't even take care of Earth for the sake of our children's future. The only thing that's alien about the reaper logic is that they don't value individual lives or even individual races. They "preserve" their memory but that's no consolation when that race is dead now. Since there is no such thing as an individual to a synthetic, they don't even understand what the problem is. Why are you stupid organics upset we're going to liquify you? We're preserving your knowledge. Ain't that neat?! Organics are very much wrapped up in their own self importance. And we struggle to think beyond our own existence. That doesn't make the reaper logic nonsense. Of course the question remains if synthetics would really wipe out all organic life. Considering that the catalyst is an AI and NOT doing that, this kind of puts the PREMISE in question. So we should absolutely question if the cycle is really necessary. But the logic of the cycle itself is really simple. It gets the job done. My two cents on a 8 year old discussion that still hasn't changed a bit. Ah the nostalgia... That's just Gothpunk trying to use things to fuel his "argument". The cycle itself is dumb, as it doesn't solve anything, it just resets everything back to zero. With the way it’s all framed in the story, the cycle isn’t even supposed to be a solution in and of itself; it’s a stopgap. Something to just keep things under control while they figure out a way to end it. I think this is partly what led to a fan theory that the Crucible plans were somehow planted by the reapers, encouraging organics to come up with a means to resolve the cycle. Of course, this would be ridiculous, given what the Crucible ends up being able to do at the whims of a single organic being, and the admission of the Catalyst that it did in fact try to destroy the plans every single time. But then, if they just keep on wiping stuff out over and over again and don’t let any particular conflict play out, there’s simply no way to tell if things might be different. They just assume it’s business as usually, fuck them all to death, rinse repeat.
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Post by Son of Dorn on Jul 13, 2020 4:10:13 GMT
That's just Gothpunk trying to use things to fuel his "argument". The cycle itself is dumb, as it doesn't solve anything, it just resets everything back to zero. With the way it’s all framed in the story, the cycle isn’t even supposed to be a solution in and of itself; it’s a stopgap. Something to just keep things under control while they figure out a way to end it. I think this is partly what led to a fan theory that the Crucible plans were somehow planted by the reapers, encouraging organics to come up with a means to resolve the cycle. Of course, this would be ridiculous, given what the Crucible ends up being able to do at the whims of a single organic being, and the admission of the Catalyst that it did in fact try to destroy the plans every single time. But then, if they just keep on wiping stuff out over and over again and don’t let any particular conflict play out, there’s simply no way to tell if things might be different. They just assume it’s business as usually, fuck them all to death, rinse repeat. I personally think that Starkid's makers didn't have a clue on how to make an AI, or at least know how to install a shakle on it. |
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Post by KaiserShep on Jul 13, 2020 4:22:00 GMT
With the way it’s all framed in the story, the cycle isn’t even supposed to be a solution in and of itself; it’s a stopgap. Something to just keep things under control while they figure out a way to end it. I think this is partly what led to a fan theory that the Crucible plans were somehow planted by the reapers, encouraging organics to come up with a means to resolve the cycle. Of course, this would be ridiculous, given what the Crucible ends up being able to do at the whims of a single organic being, and the admission of the Catalyst that it did in fact try to destroy the plans every single time. But then, if they just keep on wiping stuff out over and over again and don’t let any particular conflict play out, there’s simply no way to tell if things might be different. They just assume it’s business as usually, fuck them all to death, rinse repeat. I personally think that Starkid's makers didn't have a clue on how to make an AI, or at least know how to install a shakle on it. Like I said before, they basically left a philosophical question to a dumb, unfeeling machine, which is kind of hilarious. Leviathan: Our thralls on Planet T’urkestogienagimbo has fallen to their machine creations! Leviathan 2: Ah shit, not again. We have to do something. Our labor force is down 48% over the past 7 cycles. Leviathan 3: I know! Why don’t we convene with them on their capital world, and work out a solution where we can work past their fundamental differences in hopes of achieving coexistence. Leviathan: Fuck that. I ain’t got time for all this touchy feely shit. Just have Deathinator 1 do it. Leviathan 3: I have some reservations about the name...
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Post by Son of Dorn on Jul 13, 2020 4:28:25 GMT
I personally think that Starkid's makers didn't have a clue on how to make an AI, or at least know how to install a shakle on it. Like I said before, they basically left a philosophical question to a dumb, unfeeling machine, which is kind of hilarious. Leviathan: Our thralls on Planet T’urkestogienagimbo has fallen to their machine creations! Leviathan 2: Ah shit, not again. We have to do something. Our labor force is down 48% over the past 7 cycles. Leviathan 3: I know! Why don’t we convene with them on their capital world, and work out a solution where we can work past their fundamental differences in hopes of achieving coexistence. Leviathan: Fuck that. I ain’t got time for all this touchy feely shit. Just have Deathinator 1 do it. Leviathan 3: I have some reservations about the name... Lol. Wonder how they even became the apex predator if they were so stupid? |
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Post by Kappa Neko on Jul 13, 2020 7:26:48 GMT
Few fundamental problems with this 1) how do you even define what is an "AI" in a regulatory sense? In universe, the Council already tried this approach and failed. The Geth as constructed by the quarians were VI's and completely within the Council's existing laws against AI. Those laws failed to avert catastrophe, they simply made the eventual AI, when it evolved, take on an even more alien form than say EDI or SAM, and thus have even less understanding of or sympathy for the organics they were destroying 2) Even if you could come up with a perfect regulatory regime how does one enforce it? Are the Batarians or the Terminus authorities going to give a shit about Council law? You'd need an expansionist and totalitarian political system to ensure compliance (e.g. Prothean Empire, which ultimately failed) 3) Adding to point 2, even if you somehow had the first two you can't account for independent actors as is. Developing AI isn't something that requires an entire scientific and military industrial complex to accomplish like say building Nuclear weapons. A small group or even one guy with enough processing power can do it in a "garage" operation. Alec Ryder does it with SAM. So does Cerberus with EDI and Overlord, as well as the Quiet Eddy facility By refusing to develop AI you'd simply be putting yourself behind the curve in an arms race against potentially less scrupulous opponents who will have no such qualms. The technology gives such an advantage that political actors can't simply ban themselves from using it without the risk of being out developed and destroyed by those which don't. Indeed, real world discussions on this issue by those in the field seem to agree that attempting to regulate AI is a fool's errand. issues.org/perspective-should-artificial-intelligence-be-regulated/This. The idea that it's somehow possible to stop progress everywhere completely forever is so naive, I don't even know how to respond to that suggestion. That's certainly not a solution. Seriously, this is an unsolvable conundrum. Artificial intelligence will be created at some point somewhere. If something can be done, it will be done. Especially if we're looking at all kinds of different species all across the Galaxy for millions and millions of years. So then, which scenario is more likely: 1. Organics will FOREVER manage to either avoid war with synthetics or win the conflict. 2. One synthetic race will try to wipe out organics and succeed eventually? Please remember that ONE synthetic race hellbend one killing all organic life in the basically infinite future is enough for the reapers to have been right to create the cycle. Now of course even if all organic races were to be eradicated, there might still be a new spark of life in the future that starts the evolution into sentient organic life again. And maybe by then the synthetic race somehow disappeared. Life always finds a way. So maybe we should just let things run their cause and see what happens. But the conundrum isn't as stupid as people make it out to be. I have no issues with the narrative around the catalyst. I just thought the red/green/blue ending was ridiculous space magic and cheaply implementes on top of it. |
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Post by therevanchist25 on Jul 13, 2020 9:03:57 GMT
The Reapers are only right if synthetics are successful in wiping out life. Which we personally have no proof of, aside from the Starbrat saying "No trust me bro, I swear it happend!" And ofc, the Reapers themselves. AI becoming hostile, in itself, is not a valid enough reason for such a horrific 'solution" imo. Why? because every example we have of that, shows that organics were eventually capable of dealing with it, be it the Protheans or the Quarians. Both examples we have, prove that organics will win eventually if it comes to armed conflict.
Also, i suppose Joker and EDI prove nothing in regards to peaceful co-existence. Because clearly that idea is ridiculous.
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Post by Pounce de León on Jul 13, 2020 9:27:47 GMT
That is the point of the cycle. The catalyst has a problem with no solution so they reset the board back to start over and over again as the only way to solve the problem. Talking of horrible stories and plots - FC3 was pretty terrible, too.
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Post by themikefest on Jul 13, 2020 11:27:29 GMT
With the way it’s all framed in the story, the cycle isn’t even supposed to be a solution in and of itself; it’s a stopgap. Something to just keep things under control while they figure out a way to end it. I think this is partly what led to a fan theory that the Crucible plans were somehow planted by the reapers, encouraging organics to come up with a means to resolve the cycle. Of course, this would be ridiculous, given what the Crucible ends up being able to do at the whims of a single organic being, and the admission of the Catalyst that it did in fact try to destroy the plans every single time. But then, if they just keep on wiping stuff out over and over again and don’t let any particular conflict play out, there’s simply no way to tell if things might be different. They just assume it’s business as usually, fuck them all to death, rinse repeat. I personally think that Starkid's makers didn't have a clue on how to make an AI, or at least know how to install a shakle on it. That's because Leviathan suffered from politician syndrome, the big head, believing everything and anything they say/do without giving any thought to the possible consequences.
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Post by gothpunkboy89 on Jul 13, 2020 11:29:42 GMT
It isn't insanity if it works and continues to work for millions of years. The Geth would like to introduce themselves. A group of collective intelligence that were slowly evolving their way to full AI status. All created without actually intending to create AI while it was illegal to create AI. What part of the bolded statement did you not understand? the Geth were created to replace manual labor, because the Quarian's didn't want to bother doing those jobs themselves anymore. The entire Geth problem is avoided if the Quarians just suck it up and, pardon my french, go Pick their own damn Cotton. So why wouldn't a race utilize advanced VI programs that are able to coordinate with each other to take care of heavy, dangerous and hazardous work? Literally every technological development ever created was aimed at improving the quality of life and making life easier. If you stripped back all development to only the bare basics needed we would have the same tech level as ancient Egypt or at least around that general time frame. When people used sticks and rocks to farm. On top of that the Alliance accidentally created a sentient VI program just for military training exercises. And in the moment it became aware it lashed out blindly in self defense from the perceived threats and had to be shut down with ever increasing defenses being utilized to defend it self.
The difference between a VI and AI isn't like water boiling were you have a set temperature and as long as you don't cross that threshold you are fine.
The Reapers are only right if synthetics are successful in wiping out life. Which we personally have no proof of, aside from the Starbrat saying "No trust me bro, I swear it happend!" And ofc, the Reapers themselves. AI becoming hostile, in itself, is not a valid enough reason for such a horrific 'solution" imo. Why? because every example we have of that, shows that organics were eventually capable of dealing with it, be it the Protheans or the Quarians. Both examples we have, prove that organics will win eventually if it comes to armed conflict. Also, i suppose Joker and EDI prove nothing in regards to peaceful co-existence. Because clearly that idea is ridiculous. Geth. They successfully genocide the Quarians turning several billion into a few hundred thousand. With the Quarians only surviving due to the Mass Relays which the Reapers build. No Relay means no Quarian survival. Then a small fraction of the total Geth population with Sovereign smashes their way though the Citadel Fleets into the heart of organic controlled space without any issue. Had it been the full capabilities of the Geth and not just a small splinter group the Geth would have had over whelming fire superiority and would have dominated the battle resulting in the destruction of all Organic ships and wiping out the 5th Fleet when they showed up preventing Sovereign's destruction.
Individuals do not represent wholes. And a few months or years doesn't represent the rest of history. USA/UK and Soviet Union are great examples as during WW2 they were all buddies. So much so the USA actually restricted the publishing of Animal Farm by George Orwell due to how it painted Stalin in such a bad light. Then almost as soon as WW2 was over Stalin and the Soviet Union and everything they stood for was against everything the USA stood for and thus the Cold War started with the USA and Soviet Union having several dick measuring contests using other nations and events as proxies.
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