Everything Wrong With Mass Effect 3 Redux by GCN

because he was created by the leviathans. Who may have decided to guarantee him immense capacities of calculation and analysis, but very few and reduced "material/physical, operational" capacities.





No in that scenario the catalyst is not dormant, simply the keepers (and therefore the citadel) no longer respond to its signals. It is cut off.
Once the reapers regain possession of the citadel, it is possible that the above problem has been corrected.

During priority earth, we can safely assume that the catalyst has regained (or is regaining) control over some of the systems of the citadel.

mmm I'm not sure I undestand what you mean.
When the reapers are done with the harvest, they all return to the dark space through the citadel relay, and leave behind a sentry to monitor the situation, the degree of development of the new civilizations, etc.
According to the vigil reconstruction, when the time for genocide has come, the sovering sends a signal to the citadel (with hindsight, we can say pheraps to to the catalyst), which in turn sends a signal to the keepers, who open the galactic relay and all the reapers return in force from the dark space.
However, the prothean scientists have modified the signals of the citadel in such a way that the keepers no longer recognize those coming from the sovering and the reapers.
Therefore, when the sovereing sent the signal, nothing happened (being the catalyst dormant or not, aware of the situation or not).
From here, the necessity to open manually the portal, the great masterplan of the sovering etc.
Frankly, the presence or not of the catalyst on the citadel does not change anything.
The keepers no longer respond to the reapers, so the reapers now have zero remote/direct control of the citadel and its functions, that is the point.




only if you you refuse to assume that, at that moment, the catalyst could not activate the relay. For whatever reason.

The point is that this refusal is not based on binding logical elements or explicit in-game info, but only on a subjective (and therefore questionable) conception of verisimilitude/likelihood.

I do not dispute that the catalyst and everything that revolves around it can disgust you,
I contest the notion that it is illogical and incongruous.

you don't even have to choose a precise explanation. It is sufficient to assume that there may be an explanation for this limitation.
As long as the contrary is not expressly demonstrated, the above assumption remains valid.

for whatever reason, the catalyst could not control the primary functions (especially the relay) of the citadel during Me1. Simple.




Well.. more or less, yes.

I think it's exactly how the writers wanted to portray Leviathans.
A race so full of themselves, so sure of their supremacy, that they considered themselves almost Gods, different from their organic and synthetic slaves.
They were fooled by their own pride, by by their distorted vision of reality, being not able to foresee that their precious catalyst could have identified them too as part of the "problem".



who knows. Maybe it has always been there, and it is something so advanced, prodigious and delicate, that it cannot be removed or transferred.
Perhaps the entire citadel was built around the original nucleus of the catalyst, perhaps to protect and/or to conceal it.

In addition, the citadel is an extremely safe place, far away from catastrophic events that may affect the planets, stars etc.. The entire fleet of reapers can get there immediately from the dark space.
It doesn't seem a bad place to me.




but it may very well be that someone has entered that room, or other rooms.
we don't even know if the "core" of the catalyst is there or near, it may be somewhere else, it may have manifested itself there because is where the crucible connects to the citadel.

simply, if the catalyst remains in dormant mode, and/or is not physically connected to the main systems of the citadel, I do not see why it should be discovered.
also in light of the fact that the keepers prevent every species from fully understanding how the citadel works.

In 2000 years, th asari didn't find out that the citadel as a whole is a huge mass relay (!). Nobody complained, amazing, ME1, best game ever
Later, we learn of another fact: In 2000 years, they've not find out a (possibly dormant, well hidden and perhaps with reduced material functionality) AI. Plot hole, cursed, heresy, let's burn bioware to the ground!







Why it doesn't call of the attack? Very possible reasons.
1) he wants to show you how the reapers are wiping out your precious fleet and your friends. A strong incentive to make you choose something (and not refuse and die with honor). Persuasion, let's say.

2) There is always the possibility that Shepard will choose refuse, and that point the catalyst has already decided that at least this cycle will be ended and harvested. Might as well get on with the job.


3) He simply can't. He embodies the collective consciousness of the reapers, but this is not necessarely a form of puppeteer -> mindless puppet control.
Reapers are like insects in a swarm, they maintain individuality and can make autonomous choices. The influence/control of the catalyst over the reapers could be subtle. Or in any case not instantaneous and absolute
So why does the sheparlyst instead manage to control all the reapers as if they were pawns without will? Because the crucible amplifies the effects of control. It is what the blue wave of control does. Spread super powerful control magic around the galaxy




Actually, by the time he talks to Shepard, he may have regained the ability to do all those things.

But I would say that, from a narrative standpoint, he is pretty useless indeed.

Its purpose is to explain to you what the raiders want, what they do, what will the crucible do if activated, why the reapers are de facto giving up, and to present a series of choices to end the conflict.
But other characters could have done it as well.

There was no need to introduce the catalyst.

he was there, maybe dormant, but in general he was incapable to prevent the signals alteration and being cut off.
the prothean scientis were super bad-ass, I'd love to know more about them.



,
like what? The soverign was taken with the pants down before it could take full control of the citadel, and then destroyed in like 15 minutes.




Nothing forbids that by the time of Me3 ending the catalyst has regain some degree of control over some of the Citadel functions. Maybe even all of them.



the crucible turn off by itself, of course. We have little time, said the catalyst.
if you do not want to use the crucible before it runs out of energy, or before the damage it has suffered disables it, or anything else that causes it to become unusable due to the passage of time.... so be it.

You don't say. So there is no reason for the Citadel to actually house the Catalyst in the first place?
First of all, assuming that everything else you've said is right, that Sovereign does indeed send a signal to the Catalyst and that, in turn, uses the Citadel to send a signal to the Keepers, which then use the Relay to allow the rest of the Reapers to pass through ... why is this plan so convoluted? Why can't the relay activate automatically? Every 50k years, regardless, just pow, open. And if it, for whatever reason fails, then the Keepers do the work, as an independent contingency. That way, nobody sees it coming. And if someone does come across it, would they even know what it is targeted at? Maybe it is one of the Citadel's standard procedures. Maybe the Protheans used it to go to another galaxy. Nothing ties that runtime to the Reapers. And even if you deactivate that, it still leaves the Keepers. And it doesn't rely on a crippled Catalyst, to read a signal from Sovereign, to use another signal to ... you understand what I am saying? This is terrible, terrible planning, for a race of super intelligent Eldritch horrors. Still this is not an excuse for the Catalyst to inhabit the Citadel and nothing foreshadows its existence there, in 2 games. It only happens in the last 5 minutes of the last game. For no discernible reason. Everything else, as to the nature and purpose of the Catalyst, other than creating the Reapers at some point in the past, are never explained.


Why? Why would I assume ... why does the first thing that comes to mind, when thinking of a super advanced AI that inhabits the Citadel, that it can't do shit? Not only that, but in case of being discovered, being so cut off from any of the Citadel's systems, it would not be able to defend itself, or prevent its own detection? Who fucking things like that? Even worse, for what purpose do you design something that way? No. That's fucking stupid.


It's not illogical, it is ... I don't know, asinine? That's the best way I can describe it. It's master plan is to be left in plain view, vulnerable and exposed.


With that in mind, how do you even control the Citadel, at all? Nobody should be able to recognize anything. I would assume, it would be recognized and, especially if the Catalyst was dormant, it would be disconnected, dissected, examined and, most likely, re-activated, through an isolated, secure environment. I find the idea that nobody realized what it was, or even bothered to examine it, in, again, two thousand years, to be ridiculous at minimum. Two fucking thousand years, mate. It's not like we're talking about an expedition that spent a decade at the place. Two fucking thousand years. Unrealistic.


Strawmaning. Of course that is also a problem. There even is a "statue" of a Relay, that is actually a dormant relay on the Presidium and nobody fucking thought of it. That's not good writing. But at least it doesn't ruin the franchise the way the Starkid sequence does. It's a stretch, a huge stretch, but it doesn't break the setting.


Why? What stake does the Catalyst have in you, specifically, making a choice at that point in time, specifically? Is there a timer? Will the universe implode? The choice can be made whenever, by whoever and it makes sense to use it, regardless of the when. Shepard can't even threaten the Starkid with the destroy option. It is almost like the Starkid itself has no stake in this conflict, or purpose. If that is true, why keep up the attack? If there is a reason to keep the attack, why trust the Starkid in its explanation of what the Crucible does? Since it is highly unlikely that Shepard would survive any of the proposed methods, what guarantee does Shepard get that the Crucible will indeed operate as the Starkid says? How does Shepard know that the proposed course of action won't kill Shepard and still not fire the Crucible? How does Shepard know that what he does won't devastate the allied fleet and Earth, while leaving the vastly better armoured Reapers intact? Why can't we question the Starkid about any of this?


Refuse was not part of the original endings. So the Starkid did not have that option. Even if Shepard refused to take these three options, it would still need to operate the Crucible regardless, if it considers its solution, the Reapers, a failure. It's said so, it doesn't change, regardless of Shepard being there or not.


Bullshit. Most advanced AI in the galaxy and it can't even take a piss on its own. Utter bullshit. Most crippled fucking AI that ever existed. Unbelievable.


In other words, it is there, because Mac and Casey needed it to be there. Thank you.

It's a very stupid ending. Because regardless of whether there is a refuse or not ending and while both of you can acknowledge that the Reapers are done, nothing comes of it. If the Starkid is honest, it gives no indication of good will. If it is lying, which would be the most likely scenario, you should not trust it, therefore going forward with what it tells you, would be wrong. If the Starkid doesn't really care, either way, then why does it exist? It could self terminate at any point. If it has a self preservation instinct, then why would it be honest about the Destroy option? Why would it be honest for any option? Why is Shepard not allowed to question the Starkid? Why does Shepard take Starkid's words at face value? What reason does Shepard have to believe the Starkid at any point, other than it appeared as a kid he saw, 6 months ago, die in a shuttle explosion? If Starkid can see into Shepard's mind, can Shepard not see that it is trying to manipulate Shepard? What motive does Shepard have to trust the AI? What guarantee does Shepard get that Shepard's sacrifice will indeed result in what the Starkid says? What guarantee does Shepard get that the Crucible will fire at all? What if it just fries Shepard and the war goes on? How would Shepard know otherwise? Why does it not make sense in the most basic of levels?


I think they failed on both fronts. I don't care what happens afterward. What happens afterward is a logical fluke, since the Starkid doesn't actually have a legit reason to be in favour of operating the Crucible, especially in a Destroy scenario option. If the Starkid doesn't care about its self preservation, or the Cycle, why does it even go at it, in the first place? Why not replicate itself, with another version that doesn't obey the cycle directive, which it, itself, imposed on it? If it can accept an option as the Crucible and its outcomes, or even have preference to one over another, why not create a crucible itself? Why didn't it think about it, millennia ago, instead of the cycle? Why did a backwater organic come up with a better solution than the best AI the galaxy has ever seen? No. The EC changes and saves nothing.

all legitimate questions, that every shepard has certainly asked himself.
you can trust the catalyst, and go all in, knowing that you have nothing to lose.
If he is lying, you are already dead, and he is simply trolling.
If he is right, you have won.
Or you can call his bluff.
Nothing guarantees that you are making the right choice, while you are making it.
but the final cutscene and the ending slides, confirm that the catalyst was telling the truth.





the catalyst is interested in one and only one thing.
To solve the problem of the conflict between synthetic and organic (which he believes, by construction axioms, inevitable).
The existence of the crucible shows that the days of the reapers are over (he will have done 100000000000000000000000 calculations and simulations after the crucible docking, as doctor strange in the avengers. Let's believe him about this topic).
The crucible however offers new possibilities. Possibilities to solve the synthetic-organic conflict.

Destroy is one of them. The crucible hate it, but it is still better than not using the crucible at all (reapers won't work anymore, next unknown cycle will not be harvested and good bye, we go into the unknwon).

This cycle is special. Shepard is special. The catalyst is very clear about that. "The fact that you are standing here in front of me bla bla" + control and synthesis ("you are ready" etc.)
Maybe he admires shepard, or mankind, or this cycle, or both.
They've succesfully dealt the geths and (almost) defeated the reapers, build and activate the crucible..

simply, he has reconsidered his evaluations of the ability of the organics to manage the threat of synthetics, or to find an effective solution. He was wrong about organics (at least, about one of them, Shepard). He does not say it clearly, but it is clear that he is reconsidering his previous convictions

the catalyst is acknowledging defeat. He is acknowledging his failure. He is surrendering. He is leaving to you the bourden and the honor to decide the future of the galaxy.
"You have choice. More than you know"

mmm well, the catalyst believes that this is the case. Plus, refusal ending proves that thanks to liara's beacons "the reapers are no longer a threat".
I remember someone on the old forum saying that the crucible (and the spread through the galaxy of its plans) was like the discovery of gunpowder. Maybe not today, maybe not tomorrow, but the very moment that technology is mastered and spread, they day of the invincible armored knights are finished.




is offering you the surrender. But on his own terms (use the crucible! Solve "The Problem" by yourselves! I can't!). It is not an unconditional surrender.
If you refuse, the cycle will continue to the bitter end.

The big problem with all of that in the end is the Citadel itself. If taking the long way back to the galaxy really did have a substantial penalty to the reapers, more than anything it necessitates a quick and decisive strike on the Citadel itself so that they can immobilize the galaxy. It’s the only way a weakened reaper fleet would have any hope of gaining the upper hand. They would never try to assault earth, or take on the alliance fleet, AND simultaneously attack the turians. Problem is, if they do this, there’s no game, because the galaxy instantly loses. 

Let's proceed with order.
The catalyst is convinced that the reapers will not work anymore (and refusal ending confirms it)
The crucible provides new solutions to the Problem.
But the catalyst cannot make them come true. It needs Shepard to make them come true.

In the case of syntehsis and control, it needs the free choice of shepard to make them happen. It is he (shepard) who is ready, and who must either take the place of the catalyst, or spread his  essence in the galaxy. It is not "something that can be forced".
There is no alternative to Shepard's free will. A "Liaralyst" would not work. And neither would syntesis with joker. It is either shepard or nothing.

In a high ems scenario, we could say that the catalyst is willing to "bet": accept the risk of destroy (which it doesn't want) in exchange for the possibility to get control and/or synthesis.
Because if it does not let shepard choose, it would never get control or synthesis.
And if it does not present destroy as a possibility, well,  Shepard could simply choose refusal (which is a worse version of destroy from the catalyst pov, because it simply means to entrust the solution of the problem to a future and unknown cycle rather than to a known and special cycle).

BUT. There is a but.
This reasoning does not work in a low Ems scenario where only destroy is available.
There is nothing to bet and earn here for the catalyst. Control and synthesis are not available.
Still, the catalyst still invites Shepard to choose destroy.
Why? We must carefully analyze what the catalyst says.

1. The variables have been changed, there are new possibilities, but I cannot make them come true.
2. the reapers are not at war, they burn like fire. They just do what they were created for.
3. In low ems destroy, the catalyst even says "you MUST STOP THR CYCLE".
You must stop the cycle.

Well, what do these phrases suggest to us? This means that the catalyst, even if it wants to, cannot stop the reapers and end the cycle. Even if you know that its solution won't work anymore. He is a slave to his mission: to solve the confilct between organic and synthetic. To do what it was created for.
But now he know that he  can no longer fulfill it.

He knows that reapers won't work anymore, 100%, but he knows that even destroy almost certainly won't work. But according to his assessment, he will still have a better chance of success (it is still "a new possibility",).
However, he cannot stop the reapers.
When fire burns, is it at war? Is it in conflict? Or is it simply doing what it was created to do? We are no different.

To stop the fire, and leave room for a new solution, fire must be turned off.
And the fire cannot choose to do something different from what was created to do. It cannot choose not to burn.

So Shepard must stop the cycle. Because the catalyst cannot do it.
It cannot abdicate its role.

So really, its self-preservation instinct is indeed strong.
Or better, its sense of duty: the insuperable need to continue to pursue his task, what it was created and programmed for.
Even if it is aware that it has failed and that the new solutions (which require for its replacement or destruction) are more effective.
Someone else must take his place, but this someone else must step forward and claim it.

Any partly organic creature could do. It doesn't need Shepard, it doesn't even have to be then and there. It can happen at any point in time. All it takes is one Marauder, one Brute, one Banshee or one indoctrinated person to execute any of the three options.


I'll accept it for control. Doesn't need it for Synthesis. Even for Control, there would be better options than Shepard.


Why not? Especially synthesis, which only requires any person to just jump into the beam. Wouldn't even have to be alive.


Why? Why wouldn't it work? It just needs a person. Any person.


That would be logical, on the Catalysts behalf. "Sorry, bro. Nothing you can do here, guess all you organics wasted your resources, time to die". If you want to live, you want to live. Wipe out this cycle and pack it up and never return to the Milky Way. That way, you don't die to the next one and the Liara time capsule is just weird blue chick's pot infused ramblings, to the next cycle.


That is an unacceptable explanation. It would be, in the case where their intelligence was very basic, if they had no means of communication and that their programming couldn't be overwritten. However, the Reapers do communicate with others and the Catalyst can even read minds. I am pretty sure that the one who controls the Reapers, i.e. the Catalyst, has to, otherwise Control cannot exist as a possibility, therefore the ending itself is contradicting the very dialogue of that conversation, because without any possibility to interface with the Reapers, you can't upload yourself to the Reaper and even so, the rest of the Reapers would not be susceptible to reprogramming, therefore the moment the new Catalyst emerges, in Reaper form, it would also be obliterated. Unacceptable. The Catalyst can only be lying, if it is being literal and not metaphorical, in its explanation. In the event that only the beam can reprogram the Reapers and not their own creator, then we've relegated the Catalyst to a complete non-entity, that serves no point with its existence, as it is. It can't control the Citadel, it can't control the Keepers, it can't control the Reapers, yet it resides in the Citadel, cut off from everyone and everything, for eternity, to do nothing, but be useless, except in the off chance that the writers would one day need someone there to explain the endings choices available from a macguffin a backwater organic designed, that completely BTFO's the purpose of the Cycle to begin with and exposes the Catalyst for how fucking useless and stupid it really is. The excuses. The unfathomable amount of excuses that we need to make to justify it, the mental gymnastic we need to go through, for some arbitrary rule to fit Mac and Casey's narrative, that no other being on the planet would logically follow, to come to such a conclusion, is beyond anything I could come up with. I wouldn't come up with all these, even if you paid me for it. The amount of undermining you need to do to the Catalyst to justify this narrative. Unacceptable.


"Listen, I'm going to stop the fucking cycle. Now tell your bitches to fuck off, while I relay with high command. As a token of good faith. And if you don't, I know you're being a lying bitch that can't be trusted."
The ball is on the Catalyst's court. Easy.


Sure. A solution would need to be reached, for the Reapers, regardless of truce or not. If the Crucible can work, it can then be repaired, or even expanded upon, perhaps even have the "friendly UI" module installed on it, so that the user doesn't have to commit suicide, in order to get it to work. There is no urgency, anymore.

no, because:
1) the crucible has a "timer", a limited durability
2) in any case, shepard is the key ingredient of both synthesis and control. And he/she is dying, btw. Or collapsing, at best.




well, the catalyst thinks differently.
It is not something that can be... forced. You are ready. And you may choose it. "You" is of course Shepard, because he is the only one who can make the choiche in that situation; and he's the only that can be somehow "ready" (he is a cyborg, he has successfully dealt with several synthetics etc).
He might have a superior awareness and understanding of the Chaos problem, he is a superman, nietzsche, the first organic to stand in front of the catalyst etc.

Synthesis is here and know, with a willing Shepard, or never.
Your organic energy, the essence of who and what you are.

Another essence, and the green magic won't work.

Same with control: "your corporeal form will be dissolved. But your thoughts and even your memories will continue."







well, their intelligence is not basic, but they are still "robots". AI. They are slaves to their basic programming, like all synthetcis are.
If the main axiom (of one of the main axioms) of their core programming is something like "you must solve the Chaos Problem" (catalyst) or "you must solve the Chaos Problem through cycles and harvest and never quit untile the Problem is solved" (reapers), obviously they cannot stop the cycle without being heavily reprogrammed.

If this is the very reason why they were created, they cannot simply throw in the towel. They simply can't, they do not have free will.
The catalyst can't stop searching a definitive solution for the Chaos problem, and the reapers cannot end the cycles. Not until the problem is solved...

But destroy doesn't "solve it". It's simply a slightly better solution than continuing the cycle (and losing the next one)

So, to stop the reapers to "do what they were created to do", burn etc... what are the options?
1. solve the problem (synthesis)
2. reprogram them "by force"(control, the catalyst in fact is replaced by another entity, with different starting axioms and with way more direct control power over the reapers)
3. stop them for good with the red wave of death. if they are not stopped, they will continue to burn like a fire.



More schematically.

Let's assume that the main axioms are more or less the following.

A. Catalyst axiom (given by the Leviathans): you must figure out and promote the best possible solution to the chaos problem (and he cannot go against it)
->
B. Reapers axiom (subordinate and dependent on that of the catalyst): you must prevent chaos to arise through the cycles and by harvesting advanced civilizations (and they cannot go against it)

The crucible docked. The variable changhed.
The Catalyst makes a lot of math and simulations and realize that reapers won't work anymore. They are no longer a valid solution. They are done.
The catalyst also realize that there are 1 or 2 or 3 better solutions now available, depending on your EMS.

The catalyst can't ignore the new solutions, because this would contradict A).
On the contrary, he must promote destroy and/or control and/or synthesis.
There's no problem with control and synthesis, he just need to convince shepard to suicide. Than the Chaos problem is solved for good (synthess) or the reapers are enslaved by the upgrad catalyst 2.0, the sheparlyst (control)

The catalyst must promote destroy too, but Shepard (or anyone else in this case, but there is only Shepard around and the crucible has a timer, tic tac, little time left) must be the one to activate it. You must end the cycle!
Because, if Shepard does not activate the crucible, the reapers cannot build another one and destroy themselves, nor suspend the harvest and simply retreat, nor allow the orgaics to regroup and build another crucible. Because this would contradict B.
So if Shepard does not choose destroy, they are forced by their core programming to continue the cycles to the bitter end. To burn like fire.

In other terms, the crucible loops the internal logic of the catalyst and the reapers.
Maybe this is what the catalyst means when he says "the crucible changed me".




ah I forgot.
of course there is always another good, old linear explanation.

"the crucible changed me" simply means that the crucible has hacked the catalyst, and it is forcing him to help shepard and to give him all the information he needs to activate the crucible, to make the best choiche ecc. In other terms, to be sincere and fully collaborative.
Including of course the option: destroy us all if you want (damn!).