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Post by kalreegar on Nov 28, 2020 0:49:29 GMT
Arbitrary. There is no timer, if the Catalyst orders the Reapers to fuck off. But we see the crucible turning off. The catalyst says there is little time. How is that arbitrary? And can the catalyst really orders the reapers to fuck off? That's arbitrary too. Soveringn said that "We are each a nation - independent, free of all weakness". They catalyst said the he embodies the "collective intelligence of the reapers. So, yeah, as I've said, no, it's not a master-slave or puppet-puppeteer relationship, do this do that, yes sir! Collective intelligence has a precise meaning and it is something different than full direct control. Shepard, after the blu wave of magic, may have gained total control over the reapers. the kind of control you imagine, like the player over rome total war troops. but the catalyst... mmm no. In game info strongly suggest that it is not able to exercise direct, immediate, total control over the reapers. It is not what the soverign tells us, nor what the catalyst itself tells us. I would say that the most correct interpretation is that the catalyst, guides, influences, directs the reapers, but does not control every aspect of them. Moreover, it was not him who created them. The reapers were created by the Leviathans. The catalyst says "I give them a function". Not "I control them like pawns" Btw, not being his direct creations, it is perfectly logical that he cannot control them in an invasive way. Maybe that's why he likes control. Finally, the raiders will be completely subjugated to an higher intelligence. You keep undermining the Catalyst to be increasingly more stupid. At some point, I don't think the Catalyst is any of the things it claims. Actually, I was the Catalyst all along. That's right. I was there, putting a light show for Shepard. How did I know about the kid? Anderson told me. While I was hanging out on Earth. Yeah, I just started feeding Shepard bullshit, like yeah, I built the Reapers, sure. Nah, can't talk to them mate. Nah, can't use the Citadel, either, or talk to the Keepers, I'm ... cut off, yeah. I'm isolated in my little black box. Now you gotta go commit suicide to make the Crucible go Pew Pew. Why I did it you ask? So I can take him out of the picture and fuck his waifu. Holy shit, it's more logical. It actually makes sense. From now on, I am going to be Starkid. Look how much more sense it makes to have ME be the Catalyst, rather than the actual Catalyst. ahahaha but seriously, I don't think I'm undermining the catalyst. He may be able to control the citadel and manage it, simply not during Me1-priority earth. Prothean scientists have "disconnected" the keepers from the influence of the reapers. Moreover, Leviathans have built th catalyst as a sort of advanced chess program, to simulate scenarios and find a "countermove" to a recurring problem. So the fact that it is not enabled to fully operate a huge space station and may need "operational terminations" (the keepers)... why not. It also makes sense that it is not directly interconnected with the main operating systems (to minimize the risk of being detected). As for the reapers, they are of course under his influence, but not controlled in a total way. He is a super chess simulation program, a "data analyzer", not a tactical military AI designed to manage a fleet of tens of thousands of warships, one by one, every second. Also, remberer Saren golden rule? The more the control over a subject increases, the more the intelligence and effectiveness of the subject decreases. And the catalyst needs the reapers to be effective, if he want them to prevail. Finally, when he realize that the reapers, as currently organized and used, have become useless, and there are other possible "countermovements" to the chaos problem... well, as programmed to do, he exposes them to you and urges you to execute them. Listen, even in the event that everything you say made sense, the possibility that at some point a better solution could arise, either through the Catalyst itself looking for it, even after the solution of the Reapers, or the eventuality that, at some point, they would fail and a new solution would need to arise, the Catalyst would not have left itself so isolated from every other system, so as to never be able to enact a new solution, or to circumvent Reaper programming, if need be. It makes your supreme AI look like the guy who didn't keep a spare key, in case he got locked out of the house. I am having an increasingly hard time believing these scenarios. None of these are acceptable for a supreme level AI, I don't buy the "limited by its programming" and I most certainly don't believe the "completely isolated from everything, with no contingency plan, in case of failure" narrative. Nobody moves forward without a backup plan and I doubt the Catalyst would think that its Reapers would succeed forever. The premise is simply ludicrous and unacceptable. Everything you've put forward has not been backed up by the writing, because none of the things you explain working as they do, is being backed up by the writing, but only work under very specific, highly improbable, for a supreme AI, conditions to operate under of things we have no information about and no reason to believe they would work in the way they do. This is all headcanon territory and as such can only work under your personal interpretation. To me, it is unacceptable. ahaha yes, I made some hypothesis about the motivations of the catalyst, romanticizing them a bit but wanting to keep it simple, and based only on the in game-info, the explanation is still clear and consistent, and the ending makes sense. Even low ems destroy. the fact that the organics were able to build and activate the crucible changes everything. " you are more resourceful than we thought". The answer to the tribolate question "why in the name of the Maker does the catalyst allow Shepard to fire the crucible and destroy the reapers?" is: because the crucible itself is 100000 times more effective than the entire fleet of the reapers. It is a technology that can vaporize every single rebel synthetic, even the most advanced, in 4 seconds. End the metacon war in 1,3 seconds. It is a good solution to the Chaos problem. Simply, it is a bloody solution, because it implies a constant reset of synthetic life through the red magic wave. So synthesis is better. Control is better (because it crucible + enslaved army of reapers). But destroy is ok. The catalyst has been around for millions of millions of years, and the best it has managed to do, is the harvesting method. The reapers. Now the organics have proved themeselves capable of creating a weapon that can obliterate the entire reaper fleet in two minutes. this cycle has proven itself worthy/ready, somehow special, and since crucible is a weapon that can instant-kill every single synthetic organism in the galaxy, the organics of this “exceptional” cycle have proven that they can effectively deal with the synthetics threat (or, at least, way better and/or longer than the reapers or other less special cycles).
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Post by SirSourpuss on Nov 28, 2020 0:55:22 GMT
But we see the crucible turning off. The catalyst says there is little time. How is that arbitrary? Because, realistically, if the one "moving the string", as I think Javik put it, it could have been someone else, of the Reapers realizes his plan is for the dogs, the urgency is over. It can order the Reapers to just stop their attack, overrule or circumvent their programming, call it what you will and we could repair the Crucible, to work as intended. I don't want to argue this anymore, everything else I can say is already beneath you. You already know what I am going to say. Every defense of the Catalyst ends in "the Catalyst was dumb and powerless". I'll just be repeating myself.
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Post by kalreegar on Nov 28, 2020 10:16:15 GMT
Because, realistically, if the one "moving the string", as I think Javik put it, it could have been someone else, of the Reapers realizes his plan is for the dogs, the urgency is over. It can order the Reapers to just stop their attack, overrule or circumvent their programming, call it what you will and we could repair the Crucible, to work as intended. but what would be the point of repairing and/or building a new crucible? It would be totally useless. synthesis and control are not replicable "in the laboratory". they need shepard to work, the nietzschean superman, ready, enlightened, special, the reapers killer, the avatar of this cycle, aware and willing to evaporate for a better future. If shepard doesn't want to evaporate and/or spare the reapers (and moreover he is dying) you can build another 50 crucibles, it won't work. Synthesis has already been tried in the past, and it didn't work. Two options remain. Getting destroyed here and now by the current crucible, and let this special cycle deal with the problem of chaos, or getting destroyed in 50 thousand years from the next, unknown cycle. Better to get destroyed now, right? Stop the cycle now. who tells us that the catalyst can stop the reapers here and now? Stop them from completing this cycle? Simply withdraw? Considering they are simply "doing what they were created to do", burning like fire, that the catalyst has given them a function but they still remain "independent nations". Without being upgraded, empowered by the blue magic wave, who tells us that the catalyst can stop the reapers here and now, snap snap? Nobody. Why an advanced chess simulation program should be able to perfectly control 542429347 battleships all over the galaxy? To order them to cease to perform their main task and suicide? It already a big thing if he is able to influence their behaviors in the long term. I agree that the most controversial point, the one that comes closest to a real logical inconsistency, is the question "why does the catalyst let itself be destroyed, along with all the reapers"? Couldn't he simply say "the existence of the crucible changes the variables. Reapers are no longer useful. The crucible is not firing. Well, goodbye, you have won, we are leaving, continue without us". why allow Shepard to fire? and if it is so important that this cycle survives with the crucible, why in the hell continue the harvest if shepard chooses refusal? why not allow this cycle to create a new one and use it, if it is so important? But the logical consistency depends on how much degree of control the catalyst currently has on the reapers. And we don't know about that. We know he has some degree of control, likely subtle. Can the "collective intelligence" of an hive stop the bees to pollinate and produce honey? Snap, like that? Mmm no. ahaha, and btw, writing all the stuff above, another possible explanation came to my mind. The more I think about it, the more I like it. It's simple, elegant. No need to undermine the catalyst at all So, the catalyst considers this cycle special, and shepard even more special. You are more resourceful than we thought. You have hope, more than you think. The fact that you are standing here, the first organic ever proves it. But it also proves my solution won't work any more. You are ready Can we agree on this? The catalyst is genuinely surprised by the achievements of this cycle, and in particular by Shepard. If control or synthesis are discarded (or are not available due low ems) the catalyst is still willing to entrust the future of the galaxy to this cycle. To deal with the chaos problem. The crucible allows it (a terror machine that can instant-kill every single ynthetic in the galaxy, in the hand of a cycle that has almost defeated the greatest synthetic force ever, is a a good starting point, isn't it?). But. But this cycle (and Shepard) have yet to prove that they have the balls to do it. The balls to kill all geth, all their usuful AI and electroning device, blow up the mass relays, and in low ems, kill billions of organics in the process, and leave a devastated galaxy. To accept a big sacrifice. If Shepard, the avatar of this cycle, hesitates, if he has moral scruples to unleash a genocidal red wave on synthetics and (possibly) an apocalypse on his own people... well, than this means that he's not really ready. This cycle, however exceptional, fell on the finish line. Shepard, the avatar of this cycle, the symbol, the best the galaxy has to offer... proved weak in the decisive moment. And therefore, the cycle continues. Yeah. In this scenario, if we want, we can even assume that the catalyst fully controls the reapers (and he is temporarily holding him back). And he is not dumb, but a real evil maniac. "Do you think you can do what we are doing? You think you can handle the chaos problem? Okay, I want to trust you. So prove it. SHOW IT TO ME. "" Commit a genocide, here and know, and I will gladly pass the baton to you. It is now in your power to destroy us. But be warned, others will be destroyed as well. The crucible will not discriminate. "if there is to be a new solution, you must act"
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Post by therevanchist25 on Nov 28, 2020 14:00:32 GMT
Because, realistically, if the one "moving the string", as I think Javik put it, it could have been someone else, of the Reapers realizes his plan is for the dogs, the urgency is over. It can order the Reapers to just stop their attack, overrule or circumvent their programming, call it what you will and we could repair the Crucible, to work as intended. but what would be the point of repairing and/or building a new crucible? It would be totally useless. synthesis and control are not replicable "in the laboratory". they need shepard to work, the nietzschean superman, ready, enlightened, special, the reapers killer, the avatar of this cycle, aware and willing to evaporate for a better future. If shepard doesn't want to evaporate and/or spare the reapers (and moreover he is dying) you can build another 50 crucibles, it won't work. Synthesis has already been tried in the past, and it didn't work. Two options remain. Getting destroyed here and now by the current crucible, and let this special cycle deal with the problem of chaos, or getting destroyed in 50 thousand years from the next, unknown cycle. Better to get destroyed now, right? Stop the cycle now. who tells us that the catalyst can stop the reapers here and now? Stop them from completing this cycle? Simply withdraw? Considering they are simply "doing what they were created to do", burning like fire, that the catalyst has given them a function but they still remain "independent nations". Without being upgraded, empowered by the blue magic wave, who tells us that the catalyst can stop the reapers here and now, snap snap? Nobody. Why an advanced chess simulation program should be able to perfectly control 542429347 battleships all over the galaxy? To order them to cease to perform their main task and suicide? It already a big thing if he is able to influence their behaviors in the long term. I agree that the most controversial point, the one that comes closest to a real logical inconsistency, is the question "why does the catalyst let itself be destroyed, along with all the reapers"? Couldn't he simply say "the existence of the crucible changes the variables. Reapers are no longer useful. The crucible is not firing. Well, goodbye, you have won, we are leaving, continue without us". why allow Shepard to fire? and if it is so important that this cycle survives with the crucible, why in the hell continue the harvest if shepard chooses refusal? why not allow this cycle to create a new one and use it, if it is so important? But the logical consistency depends on how much degree of control the catalyst currently has on the reapers. And we don't know about that. We know he has some degree of control, likely subtle. Can the "collective intelligence" of an hive stop the bees to pollinate and produce honey? Snap, like that? Mmm no. ahaha, and btw, writing all the stuff above, another possible explanation came to my mind. The more I think about it, the more I like it. It's simple, elegant. No need to undermine the catalyst at all So, the catalyst considers this cycle special, and shepard even more special. You are more resourceful than we thought. You have hope, more than you think. The fact that you are standing here, the first organic ever proves it. But it also proves my solution won't work any more. You are ready Can we agree on this? The catalyst is genuinely surprised by the achievements of this cycle, and in particular by Shepard. If control or synthesis are discarded (or are not available due low ems) the catalyst is still willing to entrust the future of the galaxy to this cycle. To deal with the chaos problem. The crucible allows it (a terror machine that can instant-kill every single ynthetic in the galaxy, in the hand of a cycle that has almost defeated the greatest synthetic force ever, is a a good starting point, isn't it?). But. But this cycle (and Shepard) have yet to prove that they have the balls to do it. The balls to kill all geth, all their usuful AI and electroning device, blow up the mass relays, and in low ems, kill billions of organics in the process, and leave a devastated galaxy. To accept a big sacrifice. If Shepard, the avatar of this cycle, hesitates, if he has moral scruples to unleash a genocidal red wave on synthetics and (possibly) an apocalypse on his own people... well, than this means that he's not really ready. This cycle, however exceptional, fell on the finish line. Shepard, the avatar of this cycle, the symbol, the best the galaxy has to offer... proved weak in the decisive moment. And therefore, the cycle continues. Yeah. In this scenario, if we want, we can even assume that the catalyst fully controls the reapers (and he is temporarily holding him back). And he is not dumb, but a real evil maniac. "Do you think you can do what we are doing? You think you can handle the chaos problem? Okay, I want to trust you. So prove it. SHOW IT TO ME. "" Commit a genocide, here and know, and I will gladly pass the baton to you. It is now in your power to destroy us. But be warned, others will be destroyed as well. The crucible will not discriminate. "if there is to be a new solution, you must act" Having followed as much of this as I can, you're entire argument is just head canon justifications to convince yourself that the writing isn't a piss poor disgrace. You're suffering Stockholm Syndrome here, defending and making excuses for the the guilty party that wronged everyone lol. Nothing you say is actually provable, and is wholly conjecture on your part in a desperate attempt to explain why nothing makes any sense. I've no idea why you're so determined to convince the world that the most illogical RPG plot of the last 15 years makes any sense but good luck to you, because around here your basically wasting your breath. No one on this forum will ever change their mind about anything.
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Post by ahglock on Nov 28, 2020 15:31:32 GMT
From what I can tell, not really. He isn't sating much about the quality just arguing the over whether or not it was logically inconsistent or a plot hole or whatever they want to call it.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Nov 28, 2020 15:38:41 GMT
they need shepard to work No, they don't. At no point is that established. The Crucible was supposed to fire regardless. Which is why we got that "best seats in the house" scene with Anderson. Shepard is only needed there, because the Crucible doesn't fire. And, please, explain, for the Destroy ending, how is Shepard needed, specifically, to shoot a panel? Shit, I could do it. I'll shoot all your panels. Does Shepard do it with more flair? Maybe. But I doubt that is the key component to trigger the Destroy sequence. Or, in the control option, how is a genocidal maniac Shepard more fit for that part than some well adjusted individual? As for the Synthesis ending, if it requires his DNA, why not just jack off into the green ray? There's so much data in your splooge that it is still the fastest data transfer protocol today. Look it up. Maybe the Starkid can morph into Shepard's LI for "inspiration". And yeah, jerking off is going to look weird, but if my choices are jerking off into some green light or getting incinerated by it, you can bet my semen swollen balls, I am going to jerk it in front of a AI in the shape of a child and cum like there's no tomorrow. Unless we're dealing with Erectile Dysfunction Shepard, or a femshep. Eh, maybe femshep can get some out of Anderson or TIM. They're freshly dead. Listen, I really appreciate, I love, the time you've dedicated to argue, there's no getting out of how bad this ending sequence is. There's no excuse.
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Post by kalreegar on Nov 28, 2020 16:33:32 GMT
Nothing you say is actually provable, and is wholly conjecture on your part in a desperate attempt to explain why nothing makes any sense. I've no idea why you're so determined to convince the world that the most illogical RPG plot of the last 15 years makes any sense but good luck to you, because around here your basically wasting your breath. No one on this forum will ever change their mind about anything. Because (in my opinion, and I believe also by definition) one thing is inconsistent or illogical if it does not respect the principle of non contradiction: contradictory propositions cannot both be true in the same sense at the same time two opposite statements, A and not-A, , they cannot both be true at the same time. I don't see anything like that in ME3 ending and in ME in general. I do not see thing like "A and -not A are both simultaneously true". I simply see a lot of unexplained things. Narrative jumps, if you will. Too many passages omitted. Explanations not given, missing insights, things taken for granted or left implicit. Baaaaaad writing. But all this, however annoying, does not undermine the internal logic of the trilogy. It only makes it more difficult to connect the various points and make light on the blind spots. ME1 makes zero sense (logically) if the catalyst controls the citadel. Ok, we can agree on that. But nowhere it is said that the catalyst necessarly and surely controls and has always controlled the citadel. It is natural to think so, it is instinctive, plausible. A super powerfu AI should be able to do this and that.. Yes. But it is not illogical to assume the opposite. Where is the inconsistency to assume that a super AI is not able, or has been made incapable, to control a space station? Is it said somewhere during the trilogy that any AI must necessarily be able to control all the functions of the places where it reside? Does our personal experience of the world force us to state that an IA should be able, always and in any case, to control a space station? No There is nothing that prohibits, theoretically, that the catalyst could not operate the citade during MEl. We don't know why, but as long as there are possible explanations for this, it's a consistent assumption. I think that the protheans scientist messing with the reapers signal and the keepers can be a possible explanation, but you don't need to make it explicit You can also simply assume that there is a possibile reason, and this is a logically valid assumption, as long as it is not explicitly contradicted and falsified. Unlikely? Narratively bad? Need headcanon to make up some of these possible explanations? Maybe, yeah, sure. but that's what I don't understand in so many fans. They have played the trilogy 30 times, they keep replaying it, they are here talking about it. we are playing the trilogy. Me1. We have two choices: a. assume that the catalyst controls the citadel b. assume that the catalyst is not able to control the citadel Both assumptions are possible. They cannot be true at the same time. They are neither expressly confirmed nor expressly denied. However, a) is logically incompatible with other information and subsequent events of the trilogy. Vice versa b., it is logically compatible with subsequent information and events. Why, in the name of the maker, should someone opt for a)? Because is it more likely, and it better suit your personal idea of what a genocidal AI created by giant mollusks can or cannot do on a space station which is also a mass effect relay to the dark space beyond the galaxy? Even if is the alternative is, however counterintuitive, at least logical? That's why I'm wasting my breath. I want to understand. Also, sirpetrakus is a very brilliant and polite interlocutor, it is always pleasant and funny to discuss with users like him (or her).
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Post by SirSourpuss on Nov 28, 2020 16:43:36 GMT
I don't see anything like that in ME3 ending and in ME in general. I see plenty of it, in ME3 and all the solutions to them, as you presented them to be, is to make the Catalyst a non-entity. Which entirely contradicts its existence. The reason the Catalyst exists, is to guide a person, in the event that person walked in to the Catalyst's room, if someone had built a machine, that docked onto the CItadel, that would defeat the Reapers, if it fired, only it didn't, so that person had to be there to activate the Crucible which only the Catalyst would know how to activate. So the question is, if the Catalyst is as isolated from everything, so that nobody had found it and it can't interface with the Citadel, or the Keepers, or the Reapers, how does it know what the Crucible is capable of? The Catalyst wouldn't have any way of interfacing with the Crucible either. So either the Catalyst is lying and is far more capable than it is letting you on to believe, which proves malevolence or some sort of malicious intent to trick you, or that it is guessing what and how the Crucible works, without actually knowing, which means it is, at best, unreliable.
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Post by therevanchist25 on Nov 28, 2020 17:33:06 GMT
Nothing you say is actually provable, and is wholly conjecture on your part in a desperate attempt to explain why nothing makes any sense. I've no idea why you're so determined to convince the world that the most illogical RPG plot of the last 15 years makes any sense but good luck to you, because around here your basically wasting your breath. No one on this forum will ever change their mind about anything. Because (in my opinion, and I believe also by definition) one thing is inconsistent or illogical if it does not respect the principle of non contradiction: contradictory propositions cannot both be true in the same sense at the same time two opposite statements, A and not-A, , they cannot both be true at the same time. I don't see anything like that in ME3 ending and in ME in general. I do not see thing like "A and -not A are both simultaneously true". I simply see a lot of unexplained things. Narrative jumps, if you will. Too many passages omitted. Explanations not given, missing insights, things taken for granted or left implicit. Baaaaaad writing. But all this, however annoying, does not undermine the internal logic of the trilogy. It only makes it more difficult to connect the various points and make light on the blind spots. ME1 makes zero sense (logically) if the catalyst controls the citadel. Ok, we can agree on that. But nowhere it is said that the catalyst necessarly and surely controls and has always controlled the citadel. It is natural to think so, it is instinctive, plausible. A super powerfu AI should be able to do this and that.. Yes. But it is not illogical to assume the opposite. Where is the inconsistency to assume that a super AI is not able, or has been made incapable, to control a space station? Is it said somewhere during the trilogy that any AI must necessarily be able to control all the functions of the places where it reside? Does our personal experience of the world force us to state that an IA should be able, always and in any case, to control a space station? No There is nothing that prohibits, theoretically, that the catalyst could not operate the citade during MEl. We don't know why, but as long as there are possible explanations for this, it's a consistent assumption. I think that the protheans scientist messing with the reapers signal and the keepers can be a possible explanation, but you don't need to make it explicit You can also simply assume that there is a possibile reason, and this is a logically valid assumption, as long as it is not explicitly contradicted and falsified. Unlikely? Narratively bad? Need headcanon to make up some of these possible explanations? Maybe, yeah, sure. but that's what I don't understand in so many fans. They have played the trilogy 30 times, they keep replaying it, they are here talking about it. we are playing the trilogy. Me1. We have two choices: a. assume that the catalyst controls the citadel b. assume that the catalyst is not able to control the citadel Both assumptions are possible. They cannot be true at the same time. They are neither expressly confirmed nor expressly denied. However, a) is logically incompatible with other information and subsequent events of the trilogy. Vice versa b., it is logically compatible with subsequent information and events. Why, in the name of the maker, should someone opt for a)? Because is it more likely, and it better suit your personal idea of what a genocidal AI created by giant mollusks can or cannot do on a space station which is also a mass effect relay to the dark space beyond the galaxy? Even if is the alternative is, however counterintuitive, at least logical? That's why I'm wasting my breath. I want to understand. Also, sirpetrakus is a very brilliant and polite interlocutor, it is always pleasant and funny to discuss with users like him (or her). You say B must be more correct than A. Okay, so how, if the Catalyst is unable to control anything, are they vital to the activation of the Crucible, when the aliens who designed it, didn't even know it existed? How is this logical?
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Post by KaiserShep on Nov 28, 2020 18:41:27 GMT
The Catalyst was pretty dumb to throw all of its faith in its Keeper system. It probably sat there watching helplessly as the protheans tinker going “Goddammit. I knew I should’ve left the assume direct control option available”. Simplest explanation though is that the Catalyst was never in the cards. That shit just came much later.
The central intelligence would have been better off just working remotely from dark space. It was clear that the reapers can communicate over vast distances. Harbinger was able to have fuckin’ skype calls to Shepard while it was still out in carajoland beyond the galactic horizon. Surely the “intelligence” could have done the same. But then that would require coming up with a more creative way to deal with it than sticking a giant magic lollipop up its port.
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Post by kalreegar on Nov 28, 2020 18:44:20 GMT
when the aliens who designed it, didn't even know it existed? How is this logical? a big mistery. Among other things, one of the most beautiful concepts of Mass effect 3, is that each cycle tried, each cycle gave its little contribute. Maybe by discovering something, adding something to the crucible, finding a piece of the puzzle. Maybe some "shepard from the past" had managed to contact a Leviathan, and was aware of "the intelligence" Maybe some great tech genius (maybe an ancient AI like Edi, or a scientist like Mordin),while studying the citadel and the keepers, managed to intuit the existence of some obscure entity hidden in the depths of the citadel, to realize what it was after the invasion, and somehow managed to transfer this information in the crucible. And what about the guys that managed to save a project of the crucible, and prevent it from being totally eradicated. I would not mind a spin off about one of these ancient, despererate, inevitable, yet decisive, failures. Who knows how close to victory some of them came.. The history of the organic against the reapers, cycle after cycle, reminds me of Beckett's beautiful phrase. Ever failed. No matter. Try again. Fail again. Fail better
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Post by KaiserShep on Nov 28, 2020 18:46:36 GMT
A spin-off just showcasing the failure is best left to more passive media, kind of like the Second Renaissance of the Animatrix. I don’t want to play a 30+ hour campaign just watching everything grind down to failure. We already have ME3 for that.
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Post by kalreegar on Nov 28, 2020 19:25:17 GMT
A spin-off just showcasing the failure is best left to more passive media, kind of like the Second Renaissance of the Animatrix. I don’t want to play a 30+ hour campaign just watching everything grind down to failure. We already have ME3 for that. Rdr, Rdr2, TLOU2, bloodborne, shadow of the colossus, nier... not a bad recipe for critical and commercial success also... the best recent star wars? Rogue one!
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Post by cloud9 on Nov 28, 2020 19:55:24 GMT
The problem with ME3 in general is that the reapers should've have taken the citadel from the off. It's the centre of the relay networks, holds a lot of political leadership etc. There was literally no need to attack earth or anything - just take the citadel and the war is over. Of course this begs the question why when they did take it they didn't turn the relays off and isolate each planet / strand the fleets. And, of course, it begs the bigger question of why the catalyst didn't just do it, or why they needed the keepers to do it, or Saren or.... Basically the plot makes no sense from the get go based on its own lore, and then the whole trilogy makes no sense during the last ten minutes. I remember when people were arguing whether the catalyst could control the citadel or not on the old BSN, the amount of illogical hand waving that had to be done to make that work.. but stupidly it's the only thing that does make sense for the game to work: the catalyst either can't control the citadel that is its home (and thus can't close / open the relay(s), override the arm controls etc); or it can and chooses not too for 'reasons' over all 3 games.
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Post by KaiserShep on Nov 28, 2020 19:58:58 GMT
A spin-off just showcasing the failure is best left to more passive media, kind of like the Second Renaissance of the Animatrix. I don’t want to play a 30+ hour campaign just watching everything grind down to failure. We already have ME3 for that. Rdr, Rdr2, TLOU2, bloodborne, shadow of the colossus, nier... not a bad recipe for critical and commercial success also... the best recent star wars? Rogue one! Oof, you just had to toss TLOU2 in there. That doesn’t exactly make a compelling case there, considering the shitshow that game’s story is. As for Rogue One, that would be an example of the passive media I’m referring to, since it’s obviously not interactive. I’m not arguing whether or not a BioWare game where our PC and companions are all guaranteed to die horrible deaths at the end is a product that would be a commercial success; I simply have no interest in it and would just watch the walkthroughs on YouTube rather than waste my money on it.
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Post by ahglock on Nov 28, 2020 20:38:54 GMT
Rdr, Rdr2, TLOU2, bloodborne, shadow of the colossus, nier... not a bad recipe for critical and commercial success also... the best recent star wars? Rogue one! Oof, you just had to toss TLOU2 in there. That doesn’t exactly make a compelling case there, considering the shitshow that game’s story is. As for Rogue One, that would be an example of the passive media I’m referring to, since it’s obviously not interactive. I’m not arguing whether or not a BioWare game where our PC and companions are all guaranteed to die horrible deaths at the end is a product that would be a commercial success; I simply have no interest in it and would just watch the walkthroughs on YouTube rather than waste my money on it. getting the spoiler for the ending of FF15 ending dampened my urge to complete it. I'm sometimes okay with the death of the protagonist, like in ME3 it didn't really bother me that Shepard died before the EC, I just hated the hole R,B,G choice thing. They set up the stakes well from the get go imo. Whereas in FF15 while yes there is a war back drop the game i mostly a road trip with friends, it would be like if ME1-3 was all like the citadel DLC and then they kill Shepard it just doesn't feel right. So death of all the characters I can enjoy as a story if its done right, but that is not easy to do.
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Post by alanc9 on Nov 29, 2020 23:51:16 GMT
Yes. But it is not illogical to assume the opposite. Where is the inconsistency to assume that a super AI is not able, or has been made incapable, to control a space station? Is it said somewhere during the trilogy that any AI must necessarily be able to control all the functions of the places where it reside? Does our personal experience of the world force us to state that an IA should be able, always and in any case, to control a space station? No There is nothing that prohibits, theoretically, that the catalyst could not operate the citade during MEl. We don't know why, but as long as there are possible explanations for this, it's a consistent assumption. I think that the protheans scientist messing with the reapers signal and the keepers can be a possible explanation, but you don't need to make it explicit You can also simply assume that there is a possibile reason, and this is a logically valid assumption, as long as it is not explicitly contradicted and falsified. What's always bothered me about this is that it would have been simple enough to make it explicit that the Prothean scientists discovered the Catalyst, and blew up the hardware that let him control the Citadel relay and ordered the keepers not to repair it. It doesn't have to be explicit, as you say, but making it explicit would have been cheap.
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Post by gothpunkboy89 on Nov 30, 2020 21:15:18 GMT
but what would be the point of repairing and/or building a new crucible? It would be totally useless. synthesis and control are not replicable "in the laboratory". they need shepard to work, the nietzschean superman, ready, enlightened, special, the reapers killer, the avatar of this cycle, aware and willing to evaporate for a better future. If shepard doesn't want to evaporate and/or spare the reapers (and moreover he is dying) you can build another 50 crucibles, it won't work. Synthesis has already been tried in the past, and it didn't work. Two options remain. Getting destroyed here and now by the current crucible, and let this special cycle deal with the problem of chaos, or getting destroyed in 50 thousand years from the next, unknown cycle. Better to get destroyed now, right? Stop the cycle now. who tells us that the catalyst can stop the reapers here and now? Stop them from completing this cycle? Simply withdraw? Considering they are simply "doing what they were created to do", burning like fire, that the catalyst has given them a function but they still remain "independent nations". Without being upgraded, empowered by the blue magic wave, who tells us that the catalyst can stop the reapers here and now, snap snap? Nobody. Why an advanced chess simulation program should be able to perfectly control 542429347 battleships all over the galaxy? To order them to cease to perform their main task and suicide? It already a big thing if he is able to influence their behaviors in the long term. I agree that the most controversial point, the one that comes closest to a real logical inconsistency, is the question "why does the catalyst let itself be destroyed, along with all the reapers"? Couldn't he simply say "the existence of the crucible changes the variables. Reapers are no longer useful. The crucible is not firing. Well, goodbye, you have won, we are leaving, continue without us". why allow Shepard to fire? and if it is so important that this cycle survives with the crucible, why in the hell continue the harvest if shepard chooses refusal? why not allow this cycle to create a new one and use it, if it is so important? But the logical consistency depends on how much degree of control the catalyst currently has on the reapers. And we don't know about that. We know he has some degree of control, likely subtle. Can the "collective intelligence" of an hive stop the bees to pollinate and produce honey? Snap, like that? Mmm no. ahaha, and btw, writing all the stuff above, another possible explanation came to my mind. The more I think about it, the more I like it. It's simple, elegant. No need to undermine the catalyst at all So, the catalyst considers this cycle special, and shepard even more special. You are more resourceful than we thought. You have hope, more than you think. The fact that you are standing here, the first organic ever proves it. But it also proves my solution won't work any more. You are ready Can we agree on this? The catalyst is genuinely surprised by the achievements of this cycle, and in particular by Shepard. If control or synthesis are discarded (or are not available due low ems) the catalyst is still willing to entrust the future of the galaxy to this cycle. To deal with the chaos problem. The crucible allows it (a terror machine that can instant-kill every single ynthetic in the galaxy, in the hand of a cycle that has almost defeated the greatest synthetic force ever, is a a good starting point, isn't it?). But. But this cycle (and Shepard) have yet to prove that they have the balls to do it. The balls to kill all geth, all their usuful AI and electroning device, blow up the mass relays, and in low ems, kill billions of organics in the process, and leave a devastated galaxy. To accept a big sacrifice. If Shepard, the avatar of this cycle, hesitates, if he has moral scruples to unleash a genocidal red wave on synthetics and (possibly) an apocalypse on his own people... well, than this means that he's not really ready. This cycle, however exceptional, fell on the finish line. Shepard, the avatar of this cycle, the symbol, the best the galaxy has to offer... proved weak in the decisive moment. And therefore, the cycle continues. Yeah. In this scenario, if we want, we can even assume that the catalyst fully controls the reapers (and he is temporarily holding him back). And he is not dumb, but a real evil maniac. "Do you think you can do what we are doing? You think you can handle the chaos problem? Okay, I want to trust you. So prove it. SHOW IT TO ME. "" Commit a genocide, here and know, and I will gladly pass the baton to you. It is now in your power to destroy us. But be warned, others will be destroyed as well. The crucible will not discriminate. "if there is to be a new solution, you must act"Having followed as much of this as I can, you're entire argument is just head canon justifications to convince yourself that the writing isn't a piss poor disgrace. You're suffering Stockholm Syndrome here, defending and making excuses for the the guilty party that wronged everyone lol. Nothing you say is actually provable, and is wholly conjecture on your part in a desperate attempt to explain why nothing makes any sense. I've no idea why you're so determined to convince the world that the most illogical RPG plot of the last 15 years makes any sense but good luck to you, because around here your basically wasting your breath. No one on this forum will ever change their mind about anything. I always like it when people resort to "your head canon isn't valid because my head canon says differently so my head canon is superior". Ever time I see it I always get the feeling the person saying it simply can't understand the concept of someone else's perspective and that they can come to different conclusions. So they dismiss anything that disagrees with them and assert forcibly that their opinion is the one and only true opinion.
Rather ironically it actually proves the Catalyst correct. With opinions and ideas so set in adamant there is no room for understanding or connections. The whole "My view is correct and will always be correct and no one will ever make me think otherwise." is what starts fights, wars and genocide.
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Post by gothpunkboy89 on Nov 30, 2020 21:32:53 GMT
Yes. But it is not illogical to assume the opposite. Where is the inconsistency to assume that a super AI is not able, or has been made incapable, to control a space station? Is it said somewhere during the trilogy that any AI must necessarily be able to control all the functions of the places where it reside? Does our personal experience of the world force us to state that an IA should be able, always and in any case, to control a space station? No There is nothing that prohibits, theoretically, that the catalyst could not operate the citade during MEl. We don't know why, but as long as there are possible explanations for this, it's a consistent assumption. I think that the protheans scientist messing with the reapers signal and the keepers can be a possible explanation, but you don't need to make it explicit You can also simply assume that there is a possibile reason, and this is a logically valid assumption, as long as it is not explicitly contradicted and falsified. What's always bothered me about this is that it would have been simple enough to make it explicit that the Prothean scientists discovered the Catalyst, and blew up the hardware that let him control the Citadel relay and ordered the keepers not to repair it. It doesn't have to be explicit, as you say, but making it explicit would have been cheap. Why does the Catalyst have to have control over the Citadel in the first place? I've never seen any satisfying argument why it should other then people simply thinking it should because it exists on the Citadel.
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Post by themikefest on Nov 30, 2020 22:13:20 GMT
Should thing have any control over the Citadel, or at the very least, any part of it? If it doesn't, then what/who raised the platform up with Shepard on it? Who/what raised the ramp for red/blue and extended the ramp for green? Who/what turned off the crucible when Shepard refuses to make a choice?
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Post by SirSourpuss on Dec 1, 2020 0:09:00 GMT
Should thing have any control over the Citadel, or at the very least, any part of it? If it doesn't, then what/who raised the platform up with Shepard on it? Who/what raised the ramp for red/blue and extended the ramp for green? Who/what turned off the crucible when Shepard refuses to make a choice? How does it even know what the Crucible does? The Catalyst shouldn't even be able to interface with it. Which also means that the Crucible shouldn't fire, either, right?
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Post by gothpunkboy89 on Dec 1, 2020 0:34:29 GMT
Should thing have any control over the Citadel, or at the very least, any part of it? If it doesn't, then what/who raised the platform up with Shepard on it? Who/what raised the ramp for red/blue and extended the ramp for green? Who/what turned off the crucible when Shepard refuses to make a choice? How would it turn off the crucible even if it had full control of the Citadel? I mean ME1 already established that the Citadel was build and programed by the Reapers. Yet Sovereign was able to attach it self for several minutes without being able to activate the relay. Then was blocked by a Prothean fire wall even though the Reapers are advanced far beyond even the Protheans and literally created the very systems they are trying to access.
That said Keepers are an easy answer. Programed with maintenance in mind but able to be given new orders though the Reaper Signal. One directly stated to have been altered by the Protheans. However with the Citadel in Reaper control they would have easily been able to address that aspect. This would also address the people who want to complain about why the Catalyst didn't just open the arms for Sovereign. It simply could not because it could no longer command the Keepers who were operating in auto maintenance mode.
Secondly is given they are in a deep area accessible only by Keepers the Catalyst has control of his local space. Similar to how in a multi story apartment building you only have control and access to your specific apartment. And when the crucible docks it plugged directly into the Catalyst allowing access to it the way plugging in an external hard drive allows your computer to access it.
However the main complaint about this is never focused on small things like raising the platform. It is always and has always been directed towards complaining that the existense of the Catalyst renders the entire point of ME1 as pointless and stupid because the Catalyst could have just done everything. And as always my question is why would the Catalyst need full control of the Citadel? The Keepers were designed to act as repair and maintenance drones doing everything automatically. Sovereign or some other such Reaper is always left behind to monitor the development of the galaxy and sends a signal to the Keepers to activate the Relay. And the Citadel is always the first location hit by the Reapers and secured as the first objective in every cycle save this one because the Protheans meddled with the signal. The perfect trap has been set and there is 0 reason for the Catalyst to control any part of the Citadel. It can just sit there absorbing data the Reapers collect and doing it's calculations.
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Post by themikefest on Dec 1, 2020 1:00:46 GMT
Should thing have any control over the Citadel, or at the very least, any part of it? If it doesn't, then what/who raised the platform up with Shepard on it? Who/what raised the ramp for red/blue and extended the ramp for green? Who/what turned off the crucible when Shepard refuses to make a choice? How does it even know what the Crucible does? The Catalyst shouldn't even be able to interface with it. Which also means that the Crucible shouldn't fire, either, right? It would if using Hacketts ending. A few moments after Shepard passes out, and the arms to the Citadel are fully opened, the crucible fires the red wave of doom destroying the reapers. Don't need all that other stuff that happens.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Dec 1, 2020 1:51:44 GMT
It would if using Hacketts ending. A few moments after Shepard passes out, and the arms to the Citadel are fully opened, the crucible fires the red wave of doom destroying the reapers. Don't need all that other stuff that happens. A lot of things would have made more sense, had we just got the extended Anderson dialogue, have them pass out, Crucible fires and then Shepard is woken up by paramedics, next to a dead Andreson. There, you got your sacrifice, your payoff and your emotional manipulation, without contrivance.
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Post by vonuber on Dec 1, 2020 9:14:02 GMT
The thing about the Catalyst is that there was literally no need for it within the game.
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