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Post by Son of Dorn on Dec 1, 2020 23:17:54 GMT
Those cybernetics didn't have an AI controling those implants last I checked. Unless you are suggesting that every machine in the MET uses those implants in their construction? Mmm no but everything "alive" is affected by shepard "essence".. leaves and grass too. Why not AI? "The essence of who and what you are" is almost a metaphisical concept, and we don't know what exactly the green wave does. I would not restrict that concept to dna and/or implants. Let's say that synthesis is something super advanced even for the ME universe, and accept it as "magic", as Arthur C. Clarke suggested. Because, in Starkids own words, its a new form of DNA. And machines don't have DNA. Hell, Turians and Quarians DNA isn't compatible with human DNA. And last I checked as well, Shepard is human. So with that said, the Green would've been wiped out due to rejection of this new DNA.
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Post by Phantom on Dec 1, 2020 23:20:46 GMT
Mass Effect has many cyborgs including Shepard. For example, All biotics will use implants to improve their overall biotics. Also Shepard will increase their cybernetic implant load within ME2 due to the intro. Reaper Husks are dark twisted version of Cyborgs. The Collectors have cybernetics as well, I think? Yes they do. that is how they mainly function is thru their cybernetic implants. They have both cybernetic implants and genetic improvements. That is why they look different from Javik.
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Post by Son of Dorn on Dec 1, 2020 23:24:29 GMT
The Collectors have cybernetics as well, I think? Yes they do. that is how they mainly function is thru their cybernetic implants. They have both cybernetic implants and genetic improvements. That is why they look different from Javik. Here's a question: why did Starkid need Shepard for the Green? If it needed a cyborg, wouldn't any cyborg do? Hell, it could have waited for battery to dock and have TIM, or a cyborg that it created for the sole purpose of jumping into the beam in order to trigger the Green Beam.
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Post by Phantom on Dec 1, 2020 23:31:33 GMT
Yes they do. that is how they mainly function is thru their cybernetic implants. They have both cybernetic implants and genetic improvements. That is why they look different from Javik. Here's a question: why did Starkid need Shepard for the Green? If it needed a cyborg, wouldn't any cyborg do? Hell, it could have waited for battery to dock and have TIM, or a cyborg that it created for the sole purpose of jumping into the beam in order to trigger the Green Beam. Supposedly Starkid needed a free willed consenting Cyborg like Shepard to do the deed. Any Cyborg that made it would do it if they consented to that. T.I.M. by that time is too messed up by the Reaper Indoctrination.
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Post by Son of Dorn on Dec 1, 2020 23:35:58 GMT
Here's a question: why did Starkid need Shepard for the Green? If it needed a cyborg, wouldn't any cyborg do? Hell, it could have waited for battery to dock and have TIM, or a cyborg that it created for the sole purpose of jumping into the beam in order to trigger the Green Beam. Supposedly Starkid needed a free willed consenting Cyborg like Shepard to do the deed. Any Cyborg that made it would do it if they consented to that. T.I.M. by that time is too messed up by the Reaper Indoctrination. But it doesn't say that though. Hell, Saren was implanted, yet his "synthesis" ended up with him being controlled by Sov. How do we know that is what the Green actually does? After all, it's very vague on the details.
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Post by Phantom on Dec 1, 2020 23:38:23 GMT
Supposedly Starkid needed a free willed consenting Cyborg like Shepard to do the deed. Any Cyborg that made it would do it if they consented to that. T.I.M. by that time is too messed up by the Reaper Indoctrination. But it doesn't say that though. Hell, Saren was implanted, yet his "synthesis" ended up with him being controlled by Sov. How do we know that is what the Green actually does? After all, it's very vague on the details. True it doesn't actually say that, it is implied. Even then, Shepard forcing Synthesis on the Galaxy is a bad thing. Proper Communication and Understanding are good and all between the species but Forcing a Peace no matter how well meaning is bad.
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Post by Son of Dorn on Dec 1, 2020 23:40:35 GMT
But it doesn't say that though. Hell, Saren was implanted, yet his "synthesis" ended up with him being controlled by Sov. How do we know that is what the Green actually does? After all, it's very vague on the details. True it doesn't actually say that, it is implied. Even then, Shepard forcing Synthesis on the Galaxy is a bad thing. Proper Communication and Understanding are good and all between the species but Forcing a Peace no matter how well meaning is bad. Even more so when you allow an genocidal AI have full control of every lifeform in the galaxy.
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Post by kalreegar on Dec 1, 2020 23:52:52 GMT
Because, in Starkids own words, its a new form of DNA. And machines don't have DNA. Hell, Turians and Quarians DNA isn't compatible with human DNA. And last I checked as well, Shepard is human. So with that said, the Green would've been wiped out due to rejection of this new DNA. The catalsyst focuses mainly on organics during his (poor) explanation. "T he energy of the Crucible, released in this way, will alter the matrix of all organic life in the galaxy" " all synthetic and organic life will be combined in a new framework... a new DNA.I would say that organics are affected on a DNA level, something is added down there, matrix alteration (we can see it in the EC ending clips). We know that synth are affected too (that new framework the catalyst mention, Edi saying "I am alive", like pinocchio)... how? We don't know. Why bother? Synthesis is imo badly written, quite creepy and acceptable only with a leap of faith, as technology so advanced as to be seen as magic.
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Post by Phantom on Dec 1, 2020 23:54:44 GMT
True it doesn't actually say that, it is implied. Even then, Shepard forcing Synthesis on the Galaxy is a bad thing. Proper Communication and Understanding are good and all between the species but Forcing a Peace no matter how well meaning is bad. Even more so when you allow an genocidal AI have full control of every lifeform in the galaxy. A Heavily flawed Genocidal AI having full control of every lifeform in the galaxy is always a bad thing. Also Within Control, When Shepard takes over the position by copying his mind to wherever the AI is stored is bad in the long term.
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Post by Son of Dorn on Dec 2, 2020 0:18:49 GMT
Because, in Starkids own words, its a new form of DNA. And machines don't have DNA. Hell, Turians and Quarians DNA isn't compatible with human DNA. And last I checked as well, Shepard is human. So with that said, the Green would've been wiped out due to rejection of this new DNA. The catalsyst focuses mainly on organics during his (poor) explanation. "T he energy of the Crucible, released in this way, will alter the matrix of all organic life in the galaxy" " all synthetic and organic life will be combined in a new framework... a new DNA.I would say that organics are affected on a DNA level, something is added down there, matrix alteration (we can see it in the EC ending clips). We know that synth are affected too (that new framework the catalyst mention, Edi saying "I am alive", like pinocchio)... how? We don't know. Why bother? Synthesis is imo badly written, quite creepy and acceptable only with a leap of faith, as technology so advanced as to be seen as magic. I wouldn't call it advanced technology. There's plenty of advanced technology in other science fiction universes that makes the technology in Mass Effect look like it belongs in the Stone Age.
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Post by gothpunkboy89 on Dec 2, 2020 3:18:31 GMT
Supposedly Starkid needed a free willed consenting Cyborg like Shepard to do the deed. Any Cyborg that made it would do it if they consented to that. T.I.M. by that time is too messed up by the Reaper Indoctrination. But it doesn't say that though. Hell, Saren was implanted, yet his "synthesis" ended up with him being controlled by Sov. How do we know that is what the Green actually does? After all, it's very vague on the details. Always curious how a single line is used as proof of this claim. While ignoring the remaining 99.99999% of the game.
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Post by Spectr61 on Dec 2, 2020 5:44:03 GMT
It would if using Hacketts ending. A few moments after Shepard passes out, and the arms to the Citadel are fully opened, the crucible fires the red wave of doom destroying the reapers. Don't need all that other stuff that happens. A lot of things would have made more sense, had we just got the extended Anderson dialogue, have them pass out, Crucible fires and then Shepard is woken up by paramedics, next to a dead Andreson. There, you got your sacrifice, your payoff and your emotional manipulation, without contrivance. Agreed. Think super Mac and Casey H. ever compare notes with Benioff and Weiss from GoT on how to bollocks up a series ending?
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Post by SirSourpuss on Dec 2, 2020 9:39:18 GMT
Think super Mac and Casey H. ever compare notes with Benioff and Weiss from GoT on how to bullocks up a series ending? Mac and Casey wrote the book. Benioff and Weiss just did a really good job of copying it. I was never invested in GoT, so I didn't really care, but just seeing the leaks for Season 8? Holy shit, you guys had it rough. Now HBO can't get anything off the ground that's GoT related. It's dead.
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Post by Pounce de León on Dec 2, 2020 9:48:38 GMT
Think super Mac and Casey H. ever compare notes with Benioff and Weiss from GoT on how to bullocks up a series ending? Mac and Casey wrote the book. Benioff and Weiss just did a really good job of copying it. I was never invested in GoT, so I didn't really care, but just seeing the leaks for Season 8? Holy shit, you guys had it rough. Now HBO can't get anything off the ground that's GoT related. It's dead. Apparently finishing a story isn't so easy. I feel it's especially tough when the perpetualisation of the franchise winks at you and your wallet. Heck there was a zombie comic book series a couple years ago that I liked. Then came the last volume and it was just another unfinished story with a fricken teaser at the end.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Dec 2, 2020 13:31:30 GMT
Apparently finishing a story isn't so easy. I feel it's especially tough when the perpetualisation of the franchise winks at you and your wallet. Heck there was a zombie comic book series a couple years ago that I liked. Then came the last volume and it was just another unfinished story with a fricken teaser at the end. I'd argue there's a difference between the perpetuity of a franchise, finishing a story and making the the gore porn Saw death scene equivalent out of your IP, which is more among the lines of what Bioware did to ME, with the ME3 endings. Andromeda was never going to have the appeal of Shepard and co. to the greater audience, regardless, (the MET is not something you can ignore) but it could build a solid base from which to grow. However, due to the endings and to a lesser extent, Andromeda's own woes, people just didn't care.
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Post by Pounce de León on Dec 2, 2020 14:03:03 GMT
Apparently finishing a story isn't so easy. I feel it's especially tough when the perpetualisation of the franchise winks at you and your wallet. Heck there was a zombie comic book series a couple years ago that I liked. Then came the last volume and it was just another unfinished story with a fricken teaser at the end. I'd argue there's a difference between the perpetuity of a franchise, finishing a story and making the the gore porn Saw death scene equivalent out of your IP, ... Fundamentally I agree, but I've seen the gore porn way too often applied.
No, I suspect it starts out with a finite storyline and good intents of finale and fireworks and then "... but what if the fans want more?" and "... we can't let this revenue opportunity go untapped. We need to continue it. Let's start by killing the protagonists..."
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Post by Son of Dorn on Dec 2, 2020 14:56:37 GMT
But it doesn't say that though. Hell, Saren was implanted, yet his "synthesis" ended up with him being controlled by Sov. How do we know that is what the Green actually does? After all, it's very vague on the details. Always curious how a single line is used as proof of this claim. While ignoring the remaining 99.99999% of the game. It's actually curious how some people nitpick things from the MET's lore in order to fuel their fan favourite races or characters in the game. Or just downright ignore the things they do and say "but you're ignoring 99.99999% of the game!". It's kinda childish.
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Post by gothpunkboy89 on Dec 2, 2020 14:57:47 GMT
Apparently finishing a story isn't so easy. I feel it's especially tough when the perpetualisation of the franchise winks at you and your wallet. Heck there was a zombie comic book series a couple years ago that I liked. Then came the last volume and it was just another unfinished story with a fricken teaser at the end. I'd argue there's a difference between the perpetuity of a franchise, finishing a story and making the the gore porn Saw death scene equivalent out of your IP, which is more among the lines of what Bioware did to ME, with the ME3 endings. Andromeda was never going to have the appeal of Shepard and co. to the greater audience, regardless, (the MET is not something you can ignore) but it could build a solid base from which to grow. However, due to the endings and to a lesser extent, Andromeda's own woes, people just didn't care. Already pointed out that picking set choices to build Andromeda off of would have fixed that issues but players would throw shit fits over their choices not being picked. And you keep spouting "artistic integrity" as if it is a set definition rather then a general idea. Simply because you are upset that BioWare had the gall to stand by their creation and not bow down to your anger and out rage and apologize to you.
Your bias is showing in this reply so don't pretend like your over use of "artistic integrity" is anything more then an angry person upset that your personal opinion was not considered the supreme logic.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Dec 2, 2020 15:12:40 GMT
Fundamentally I agree, but I've seen the gore porn way too often applied.
No, I suspect it starts out with a finite storyline and good intents of finale and fireworks and then "... but what if the fans want more?" and "... we can't let this revenue opportunity go untapped. We need to continue it. Let's start by killing the protagonists..." I winced. I gotta admit, you made me wince. Already pointed out that picking set choices to build Andromeda off of would have fixed that issues but players would throw shit fits over their choices not being picked. Again, I don't care for Bioware's "choices". You keep picking that battle. I'm just waiting for the inevitable retcon, at this point. Your bias is showing in this reply so don't pretend like your over use of "artistic integrity" is anything more then an angry person upset that your personal opinion was not considered the supreme logic. Yeah, OK. You sure showed me. I don't even understand this argument. I am what and who I am. That's not going to change. You're not going to change it. Bioware is the one left with an unsalvageable mess. If they don't need the people who disliked ME3, then the franchise should have continued successfully, regardless. But it didn't. So fuck me and my personal bias. What about what happened after ME3? Am I supposed to support Bioware regardless? What did you expect was going to happen?
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Post by Pounce de León on Dec 2, 2020 15:20:56 GMT
What did you expect was going to happen?
8 years of back and forth arguing? Or 4.
I mean as long as people keep arguing it can't be that bad. I feel I can't really be arsed anymore unless there is gonna be a good game coming out.
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Post by Son of Dorn on Dec 2, 2020 15:27:08 GMT
What did you expect was going to happen?
8 years of back and forth arguing? Or 4.
I mean as long as people keep arguing it can't be that bad. I feel I can't really be arsed anymore unless there is gonna be a good game coming out.
That's pretty much how the Mass Effect franchise is going to go from now till it eventually ends, endless arguments.
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Post by gothpunkboy89 on Dec 2, 2020 15:28:40 GMT
Always curious how a single line is used as proof of this claim. While ignoring the remaining 99.99999% of the game. It's actually curious how some people nitpick things from the MET's lore in order to fuel their fan favourite races or characters in the game. Or just downright ignore the things they do and say "but you're ignoring 99.99999% of the game!". It's kinda childish. Yes I agree which is why I never understand the "Saren is Synthesis so Synthesis is bad" statements.
To start with Saren is an ass hole. Someone who would blow up a warehouse full of children and panda bears if they thought it would stop the pirates who are holding them hostage. From the start of Mass Effect Saren has already been indoctrinated for a while. Weeks, months or possibly years. His entire logic which we know is bullshit is the idea that the Reapers are simply machines who only care about what is useful and what isn't useful. Knowing that there is no hope to fight them due to the visions given to him he instead though indoctrination comes to the conclusion that if he helps them and proves organics can be useful they might spare at least some from being wiped out by the coming invasion.
On Virmire we learn that there is a ratio with indoctrination. The more control is given the less capable they are able to function to the point of becoming almost literally brain dead zombies. And on Virmire the interaction with Shepard cause Saren to waver given the limited control Sovereign has over him to allow him to function at full capacity. Still needing his puppet Sovereign conveniences or forces Saren to undergo augmentation turning him into a glorified husk and allowing Sovereign to have much greater control over his puppet without the loss in cognitive abilities.
However Saren for the massive list of ass hole behavior is still very strong willed which is why even with that control you can still talk him into killing himself. At which point Sovereign takes control of his husk body and attacks you as a last ditch effort to stop you. How killing this gloried husk is some how able to disable a Reaper is still anyone's guess.
Saren makes a single statement about combining organic and synthetic into a single entity free from the weakness of both before we later see he is a gloried terminator with a flesh suit on being entirely synthetic save for maybe his memories and skin.
There is no connection between Saren and Synthesis. And trying to do so is trying to force a square peg into a round hole by hitting it with a sledge hammer until it goes though. Using the same shark jumping logic means biotic amps implanted in every human biotic are the same as a husk. Thus implanting the amps in people are the same as turning someone into a mindless husk and should be stopped. Because at any minute Order 66 will be sent and all human biotics will go on a rampage and wipe out all of humanity.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Dec 2, 2020 15:35:00 GMT
I mean as long as people keep arguing it can't be that bad. I feel I can't really be arsed anymore unless there is gonna be a good game coming out. There's no good game coming out. Why would it, at this point? ME3 has gone down as one of the absolute worst endings in gaming history, if not the worst. There's no coming back from it. Which makes everything that comes after it, very painful to watch. All ME has to look forward to is limping from one title to the next. Even if they undo ME3, they've lost people for good and they are not coming back. New people will stay away from it, because of that. It's not going to be the same, regardless. Like Star Wars, after TLJ, like GoT after season 8. You can invest in ME, you can rebuild it, it's not going to be worth it. At best, you're going to see some pay off for it in ME6, come 2030, at the earliest. Just dump it, at this point.
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Post by Son of Dorn on Dec 2, 2020 15:39:41 GMT
It's actually curious how some people nitpick things from the MET's lore in order to fuel their fan favourite races or characters in the game. Or just downright ignore the things they do and say "but you're ignoring 99.99999% of the game!". It's kinda childish. Yes I agree which is why I never understand the "Saren is Synthesis so Synthesis is bad" statements.
To start with Saren is an ass hole. Someone who would blow up a warehouse full of children and panda bears if they thought it would stop the pirates who are holding them hostage. From the start of Mass Effect Saren has already been indoctrinated for a while. Weeks, months or possibly years. His entire logic which we know is bullshit is the idea that the Reapers are simply machines who only care about what is useful and what isn't useful. Knowing that there is no hope to fight them due to the visions given to him he instead though indoctrination comes to the conclusion that if he helps them and proves organics can be useful they might spare at least some from being wiped out by the coming invasion.
On Virmire we learn that there is a ratio with indoctrination. The more control is given the less capable they are able to function to the point of becoming almost literally brain dead zombies. And on Virmire the interaction with Shepard cause Saren to waver given the limited control Sovereign has over him to allow him to function at full capacity. Still needing his puppet Sovereign conveniences or forces Saren to undergo augmentation turning him into a glorified husk and allowing Sovereign to have much greater control over his puppet without the loss in cognitive abilities.
However Saren for the massive list of ass hole behavior is still very strong willed which is why even with that control you can still talk him into killing himself. At which point Sovereign takes control of his husk body and attacks you as a last ditch effort to stop you. How killing this gloried husk is some how able to disable a Reaper is still anyone's guess.
Saren makes a single statement about combining organic and synthetic into a single entity free from the weakness of both before we later see he is a gloried terminator with a flesh suit on being entirely synthetic save for maybe his memories and skin.
There is no connection between Saren and Synthesis. And trying to do so is trying to force a square peg into a round hole by hitting it with a sledge hammer until it goes though. Using the same shark jumping logic means biotic amps implanted in every human biotic are the same as a husk. Thus implanting the amps in people are the same as turning someone into a mindless husk and should be stopped. Because at any minute Order 66 will be sent and all human biotics will go on a rampage and wipe out all of humanity.
No Synthesis is bad because Starkid is vague on the details on what it actually does. Then there's the fact that it and it's Reapers love to brainwash their slaves into doing what they want (like Starkids masters), which leaves all kinds of questions like: is Starkid controling everything in the galaxy like it's former masters did when they were the big shots in the galaxy?
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Post by gothpunkboy89 on Dec 2, 2020 15:58:12 GMT
Fundamentally I agree, but I've seen the gore porn way too often applied.
No, I suspect it starts out with a finite storyline and good intents of finale and fireworks and then "... but what if the fans want more?" and "... we can't let this revenue opportunity go untapped. We need to continue it. Let's start by killing the protagonists..." I winced. I gotta admit, you made me wince. Already pointed out that picking set choices to build Andromeda off of would have fixed that issues but players would throw shit fits over their choices not being picked. Again, I don't care for Bioware's "choices". You keep picking that battle. I'm just waiting for the inevitable retcon, at this point. Your bias is showing in this reply so don't pretend like your over use of "artistic integrity" is anything more then an angry person upset that your personal opinion was not considered the supreme logic. Yeah, OK. You sure showed me. I don't even understand this argument. I am what and who I am. That's not going to change. You're not going to change it. Bioware is the one left with an unsalvageable mess. If they don't need the people who disliked ME3, then the franchise should have continued successfully, regardless. But it didn't. So fuck me and my personal bias. What about what happened after ME3? Am I supposed to support Bioware regardless? What did you expect was going to happen?
And you don't have to care about their choices. However you cloak your petty angry behavior behind bullshit contradictory logic. My statement that was the genesis of this discussion was me out right stating in the most simplest terms possible.
BioWare was more then capable of deciding what canonical events happened leading up to Mass Effect Andromeda. What stopped them were "fans" throwing a shit fit at the idea that their choices would not be selected. Because the narrative gains in Andromeda would be well worth it providing a steady and solid base to build the story off of. Rather then trying to build a story on the sand that is the multiple choices in MET.
Your response has been throwing the word "artistic integrity" around like far right wing conservatives on reddit throw the words "cuck" and "libtard" around. Going as far as to even claim there is no head canon for the games. A statement so amazingly silly I can't help but think you burst out laughing typing it. As everyone has their own head canon as the alternate term for it is called having an opinion. And opinions are like ass holes. Everyone has one.
BioWare could have easily said the Genophage was never cured, the Geth were picked over the Quarians nearly wiping them out and Control happened. This would be the basis to build Andromeda off of as they go to Andromeda with the newly developed post war tech. Instead they avoided that because fans for reasons I don't understand seem to put their entire self worth into their choices and the idea that if they picked to cure the genophage and BioWare said the Genophage wasn't cure they would throw a shit fit over it for no reason other then narcissism.
Your only respond to this repeated statement is variations of "but artistic integrity" which ignores the fact that standing by their choices in MET and setting up a solid foundation to build MEA off of and using the BioWare chosen choices to explore the altering of society based on those actions during the MET is also artistic integrity.
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