ahglock
N5
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Shattered Steel, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem
Origin: ShinobiKillfist
Posts: 2,887 Likes: 3,546
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Post by ahglock on Dec 2, 2020 16:03:44 GMT
It's actually curious how some people nitpick things from the MET's lore in order to fuel their fan favourite races or characters in the game. Or just downright ignore the things they do and say "but you're ignoring 99.99999% of the game!". It's kinda childish. Yes I agree which is why I never understand the "Saren is Synthesis so Synthesis is bad" statements. I don't think Saren is synthesis in that is what synthesis does, anymore than illusive man is control in that is what control does. But he may symbolically represent it. That being said I think in effect the only path to freedom was destroy. Both control and synthesis create slave states for the galaxy.
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Post by Son of Dorn on Dec 2, 2020 16:07:39 GMT
Yes I agree which is why I never understand the "Saren is Synthesis so Synthesis is bad" statements. I don't think Saren is synthesis in that is what synthesis does, anymore than illusive man is control in that is what control does. But he may symbolically represent it. That being said I think in effect the only path to freedom was destroy. Both control and synthesis create slave states for the galaxy. Indeed. Control and Synthesis leaves many questions, many uncomfortable questions.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Dec 2, 2020 16:08:15 GMT
And you don't have to care about their choices. However you cloak your petty angry behavior behind bullshit contradictory logic. I'm just here to laugh at the clownshow. I laughed alongside everyone else, when Andromeda released. I don't think you get me, at all. This was all foreseen and played out to perfection, by Bioware. But in the end, seeing Bioware, seeing ME in the state they are today, yeah, that hurts a little. Even the Anthem clownshow hurt. Your only respond to this repeated statement is variations of "but artistic integrity" which ignores the fact that standing by their choices in MET and setting up a solid foundation to build MEA off of and using the BioWare chosen choices to explore the altering of society based on those actions during the MET is also artistic integrity. You don't understand, then. The Artistic Integrity bit is bullshit. I know it, Bioware knows it. They stuck by it and good for them, but it won't help them. And now, if they are going to wave it away, by decanonizing the consequences, in some far off sequel, whether it is 100 or 1 billion years in the future, good for them. But it doesn't help any. I just find it funny that they'd wave away their artistic integrity for no real benefit. It's a useless move. But then again, this is modern Bioware.
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Post by Pounce de León on Dec 2, 2020 16:36:50 GMT
I mean as long as people keep arguing it can't be that bad. I feel I can't really be arsed anymore unless there is gonna be a good game coming out. There's no good game coming out. Why would it, at this point? ME3 has gone down as one of the absolute worst endings in gaming history, if not the worst. There's no coming back from it. Which makes everything that comes after it, very painful to watch. All ME has to look forward to is limping from one title to the next. Even if they undo ME3, they've lost people for good and they are not coming back. New people will stay away from it, because of that. It's not going to be the same, regardless. Like Star Wars, after TLJ, like GoT after season 8. You can invest in ME, you can rebuild it, it's not going to be worth it. At best, you're going to see some pay off for it in ME6, come 2030, at the earliest. Just dump it, at this point. I believe there is a comeback. With Intoxication Theory. Yes, it's been done before, but I don't care. Bobby Shepard hallucinated it all in alcoholic delirium. Justicars (very curvy) have to be dispatched to beat sense into Bobby and the real story begins.
It is adult story, of course and would finally make use of all these unused Mark Meer lines. A lot of aliens get blown up and Bobby is put to the test but finally overcomes temptations and puts the Justicars down and where they belong after a long, hard, arduous, excruciation but ultimately satisfying, releasing, vitalising fight to the very brink of alcoholic obsession.
Well, I kid of course.
I'm not sure when generational breaks happen in franchise perception in audiences, but I kinda think the "old guard" of MET players probably don't weigh up new customers. And that means they can just tell some new stuff under established brand.
Why not start entire new IP? I guess the brand still sells better than going through marketing an entire new setting.
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Post by gothpunkboy89 on Dec 2, 2020 16:43:55 GMT
Yes I agree which is why I never understand the "Saren is Synthesis so Synthesis is bad" statements. I don't think Saren is synthesis in that is what synthesis does, anymore than illusive man is control in that is what control does. But he may symbolically represent it. That being said I think in effect the only path to freedom was destroy. Both control and synthesis create slave states for the galaxy. To be symbolic they have to represent something. The cross is symbolic because according to christian religion their savior died on it. A nation's flag is symbolic because it is a flag of that specific nation. Saren being turned into an advanced husk because he was wavering in the indoctrination control and Sovereign needed him to be the puppet to get onto the Citadel isn't representative of synthesis. You might as well say that tacos are symbolic of the UK or a used dirty diaper is symbolic of freedom.
If anything Shepard is more symbolic of synthesis given they were literally rebuild by integrating technology into their body to compensate for lost organs or to provide some improvements.
And if you want to be melodramatic every government is a slave state just different variations.
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Post by gothpunkboy89 on Dec 2, 2020 17:12:14 GMT
Yes I agree which is why I never understand the "Saren is Synthesis so Synthesis is bad" statements.
To start with Saren is an ass hole. Someone who would blow up a warehouse full of children and panda bears if they thought it would stop the pirates who are holding them hostage. From the start of Mass Effect Saren has already been indoctrinated for a while. Weeks, months or possibly years. His entire logic which we know is bullshit is the idea that the Reapers are simply machines who only care about what is useful and what isn't useful. Knowing that there is no hope to fight them due to the visions given to him he instead though indoctrination comes to the conclusion that if he helps them and proves organics can be useful they might spare at least some from being wiped out by the coming invasion.
On Virmire we learn that there is a ratio with indoctrination. The more control is given the less capable they are able to function to the point of becoming almost literally brain dead zombies. And on Virmire the interaction with Shepard cause Saren to waver given the limited control Sovereign has over him to allow him to function at full capacity. Still needing his puppet Sovereign conveniences or forces Saren to undergo augmentation turning him into a glorified husk and allowing Sovereign to have much greater control over his puppet without the loss in cognitive abilities.
However Saren for the massive list of ass hole behavior is still very strong willed which is why even with that control you can still talk him into killing himself. At which point Sovereign takes control of his husk body and attacks you as a last ditch effort to stop you. How killing this gloried husk is some how able to disable a Reaper is still anyone's guess.
Saren makes a single statement about combining organic and synthetic into a single entity free from the weakness of both before we later see he is a gloried terminator with a flesh suit on being entirely synthetic save for maybe his memories and skin.
There is no connection between Saren and Synthesis. And trying to do so is trying to force a square peg into a round hole by hitting it with a sledge hammer until it goes though. Using the same shark jumping logic means biotic amps implanted in every human biotic are the same as a husk. Thus implanting the amps in people are the same as turning someone into a mindless husk and should be stopped. Because at any minute Order 66 will be sent and all human biotics will go on a rampage and wipe out all of humanity.
No Synthesis is bad because Starkid is vague on the details on what it actually does. Then there's the fact that it and it's Reapers love to brainwash their slaves into doing what they want (like Starkids masters), which leaves all kinds of questions like: is Starkid controling everything in the galaxy like it's former masters did when they were the big shots in the galaxy? If the Reapers wanted to control all life in the galaxy they would have been more then capable of doing it thousands of cycles ago. It would be no effort for the Reapers to place a Cadian Pylon style set up on every planet that can develop life. Set to turn on when complex life start to develop slowly indoctrinating the entire planet and allowing a Reaper to show up and assume control of the entire planet. Seriously for the same reason the average Imperial Citizen in the 41st millennium worships the God Emperor is because long ago the Imperial Cult was founded as the state religion that tells everyone from birth that The Emperor is a God and anyone who questions it gets killed.
The idea the Catalyst is lying never made any sense because the Reapers have never had any reason to lie. In fact there was 0 reason for the Catalyst to even talk to you. The Crucible docked and nothing happened. No one knew what to do and if it wasn't for the Catalyst lifting Shepard up on the lift to talk to it then the Reapers would have won and simply moved on harvesting the races of the galaxy.
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Post by Son of Dorn on Dec 2, 2020 17:16:46 GMT
No Synthesis is bad because Starkid is vague on the details on what it actually does. Then there's the fact that it and it's Reapers love to brainwash their slaves into doing what they want (like Starkids masters), which leaves all kinds of questions like: is Starkid controling everything in the galaxy like it's former masters did when they were the big shots in the galaxy? If the Reapers wanted to control all life in the galaxy they would have been more then capable of doing it thousands of cycles ago. It would be no effort for the Reapers to place a Cadian Pylon style set up on every planet that can develop life. Set to turn on when complex life start to develop slowly indoctrinating the entire planet and allowing a Reaper to show up and assume control of the entire planet. Seriously for the same reason the average Imperial Citizen in the 41st millennium worships the God Emperor is because long ago the Imperial Cult was founded as the state religion that tells everyone from birth that The Emperor is a God and anyone who questions it gets killed.
The idea the Catalyst is lying never made any sense because the Reapers have never had any reason to lie. In fact there was 0 reason for the Catalyst to even talk to you. The Crucible docked and nothing happened. No one knew what to do and if it wasn't for the Catalyst lifting Shepard up on the lift to talk to it then the Reapers would have won and simply moved on harvesting the races of the galaxy.
In that case, why not just do that instead of allowing each cycle to grow till it's time to reap them? It would have been far quicker than having to fight each cycle.
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Post by kalreegar on Dec 2, 2020 17:17:03 GMT
We might say that that the idea that saren has ended up believing (a lie in his particular case, as it was used to fully indoctrinate him), the "organic and machine intertwined" thing, is representative of synthesis. A foretaste.
not Saren itself.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Dec 2, 2020 17:17:13 GMT
I passed out for a little as all the blood in my body seemed to gather at a very specific part. I don't think I require any further explanations. I'm not sure when generational breaks happen in franchise perception in audiences, but I kinda think the "old guard" of MET players probably don't weigh up new customers. I don't think the newer installment of ME did a good job attracting new customers and ME3 was ... well, do I need to talk about that mess again? At best, if ME5 is good, you will see the new customers in ME6. If ME5 is mediocre, you will see a mild negative fluctuation with in ME6. Which, considering the already non-viable customer base of Andromeda, if we are to lose more people, I don't see any viable future for ME at all. And that means they can just tell some new stuff under established brand.
Why not start entire new IP? I guess the brand still sells better than going through marketing an entire new setting. If the old IP comes with a lot of bad baggage and you didn't pay through the rough for it *cough*Star Wars*cough*$4 billion*cough*, it's best to just retire it. Unless Bioware does something radical to turn the franchise around, which may be too big an investment at this point, I don't see it happening.
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Post by gothpunkboy89 on Dec 2, 2020 17:35:03 GMT
And you don't have to care about their choices. However you cloak your petty angry behavior behind bullshit contradictory logic. I'm just here to laugh at the clownshow. I laughed alongside everyone else, when Andromeda released. I don't think you get me, at all. This was all foreseen and played out to perfection, by Bioware. But in the end, seeing Bioware, seeing ME in the state they are today, yeah, that hurts a little. Even the Anthem clownshow hurt. Your only respond to this repeated statement is variations of "but artistic integrity" which ignores the fact that standing by their choices in MET and setting up a solid foundation to build MEA off of and using the BioWare chosen choices to explore the altering of society based on those actions during the MET is also artistic integrity. You don't understand, then. The Artistic Integrity bit is bullshit. I know it, Bioware knows it. They stuck by it and good for them, but it won't help them. And now, if they are going to wave it away, by decanonizing the consequences, in some far off sequel, whether it is 100 or 1 billion years in the future, good for them. But it doesn't help any. I just find it funny that they'd wave away their artistic integrity for no real benefit. It's a useless move. But then again, this is modern Bioware. Artistic integrity isn't bullshit. You only call it bullshit because you don't like it. There are many examples in games, books and film were the director or actors fight to keep a moment or a scene in that the studio wants to be altered or cut. These moments are often major aspects of the movie or at least memorable scenes. Take for example Iron Man's death at the end of Endgame. That was entirely RDJ's idea based on his interpenetration of Tony.
That is artistic integrity were RDJ didn't just blindly take the writing of the writers and instead pushed for his view and experience of what Tony is like after playing him for years across multiple movies.
On the flip side the 2015 Fantastic 4 Movie is another example of artistic integrity can mean bad as well. The director had their own vision that clashed with the lead writer and pushed him around until he finally left the project and said director was mostly in charge of the film. Which then bombed pretty hard.
Artistic integrity is a neutral term meaning neither good nor bad. It is simply someone standing by the original vision of their creation without completely folding to outside influences. You keep using the term the way I see conservatives use the term "liberal" as if it is an insult.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Dec 2, 2020 17:38:58 GMT
Artistic integrity isn't bullshit. You only call it bullshit because you don't like it. Whatever, man. I'm tired of having this argument with you. Go pick on someone who gives a shit.
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Spectr61
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Mass Effect Andromeda, Anthem
Origin: Spectr61
Posts: 823 Likes: 1,282
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Post by Spectr61 on Dec 2, 2020 17:50:17 GMT
My answer to the thread title "Everything wrong with Mass Effect 3 Redux" begins with -
Those behind the ME3 debacle, prominently Hudson and Walters, are in charge.
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Post by Pounce de León on Dec 2, 2020 18:34:23 GMT
I passed out for a little as all the blood in my body seemed to gather at a very specific part. I don't think I require any further explanations. I'm not sure when generational breaks happen in franchise perception in audiences, but I kinda think the "old guard" of MET players probably don't weigh up new customers. I don't think the newer installment of ME did a good job attracting new customers and ME3 was ... well, do I need to talk about that mess again? At best, if ME5 is good, you will see the new customers in ME6. If ME5 is mediocre, you will see a mild negative fluctuation with in ME6. Which, considering the already non-viable customer base of Andromeda, if we are to lose more people, I don't see any viable future for ME at all. And that means they can just tell some new stuff under established brand.
Why not start entire new IP? I guess the brand still sells better than going through marketing an entire new setting. If the old IP comes with a lot of bad baggage and you didn't pay through the rough for it *cough*Star Wars*cough*$4 billion*cough*, it's best to just retire it. Unless Bioware does something radical to turn the franchise around, which may be too big an investment at this point, I don't see it happening. Yes, there is only so much strain you can put on a franchise. I guess they decided that has decayed by their projected release. Time will tell, it definitely wont just sell on past success.
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Post by themikefest on Dec 2, 2020 22:29:12 GMT
The thing about the Catalyst is that there was literally no need for it within the game. That's right. As I've said many times. Use Hackett's ending. What explanation would there be for the catalyst? Simple. The Protheans used that word to give the Citadel. I would guess as a codename. It matches up since the crucible needs the Citadel to work. When talking with Leviathan, it says intelligence. So when Hackett pays Shepard a visit in the hospital, Shepard tells him he/she never encountered this intelligence Leviathan spoke of. This will become the goal for ME4. Find this intelligence, destroy it making sure the threat of the reapers are permanently gone even after they've been destroyed.
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Post by gothpunkboy89 on Dec 2, 2020 23:57:36 GMT
If the Reapers wanted to control all life in the galaxy they would have been more then capable of doing it thousands of cycles ago. It would be no effort for the Reapers to place a Cadian Pylon style set up on every planet that can develop life. Set to turn on when complex life start to develop slowly indoctrinating the entire planet and allowing a Reaper to show up and assume control of the entire planet. Seriously for the same reason the average Imperial Citizen in the 41st millennium worships the God Emperor is because long ago the Imperial Cult was founded as the state religion that tells everyone from birth that The Emperor is a God and anyone who questions it gets killed.
The idea the Catalyst is lying never made any sense because the Reapers have never had any reason to lie. In fact there was 0 reason for the Catalyst to even talk to you. The Crucible docked and nothing happened. No one knew what to do and if it wasn't for the Catalyst lifting Shepard up on the lift to talk to it then the Reapers would have won and simply moved on harvesting the races of the galaxy.
In that case, why not just do that instead of allowing each cycle to grow till it's time to reap them? It would have been far quicker than having to fight each cycle. Because Reapers value life (in a fashion) and want it to be unique and different each time. Given the harvesting thing that sound contradictory but their logic is based on the fact they think races are better preserved in Reaper form rather then lost forever to the fires of war. The total loss of a unique culture and people is terrible so they harvest them and preserve their entire culture in Reaper form. While at the same time they prevent the conflict from starting in the first place resetting the galaxy back to square one to repeat the process.
I know the whole concept sounds contradictory but it is the same sort of contradictory logic behind allowing endangered animals to be hunted for sport. Killing an endangered animal seems contradictory. But the fact the game wardens target old, sick or anti social animals to prevent any real damage to the group. The high price of it also provides money to help pay people to protect them from poachers that kill indiscriminately. It also stimulates the local economy which incentives people to set aside land for animals and to protect them as poachers would simply cut into their income.
It is actually a very good analogy to look at to understand how and why the Reapers operate. They view the races of the galaxy the same way we in the real world would view a cow, elephant or dog. They want to protect the herd that is organic life so they cull the old, sick and anti social before they wipe out the rest.
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Post by NotN7 on Dec 3, 2020 1:39:57 GMT
In that case, why not just do that instead of allowing each cycle to grow till it's time to reap them? It would have been far quicker than having to fight each cycle. Because Reapers value life (in a fashion) and want it to be unique and different each time. Given the harvesting thing that sound contradictory but their logic is based on the fact they think races are better preserved in Reaper form rather then lost forever to the fires of war. The total loss of a unique culture and people is terrible so they harvest them and preserve their entire culture in Reaper form. While at the same time they prevent the conflict from starting in the first place resetting the galaxy back to square one to repeat the process.
I know the whole concept sounds contradictory but it is the same sort of contradictory logic behind allowing endangered animals to be hunted for sport. Killing an endangered animal seems contradictory. But the fact the game wardens target old, sick or anti social animals to prevent any real damage to the group. The high price of it also provides money to help pay people to protect them from poachers that kill indiscriminately. It also stimulates the local economy which incentives people to set aside land for animals and to protect them as poachers would simply cut into their income.
It is actually a very good analogy to look at to understand how and why the Reapers operate. They view the races of the galaxy the same way we in the real world would view a cow, elephant or dog. They want to protect the herd that is organic life so they cull the old, sick and anti social before they wipe out the rest.
Lol given what you just said (not arguing here) but if the reapers are persevering races why does the succeeding races (at the time) only know the Protean race? what good is that? it would be awesome to know about the other races but that won't happen it's taken from us, as time moves on we as a thinking races know that the past races (according to history) have moved on but there should be evidence of past races other than just the one (pre Jarvik).
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Dec 3, 2020 14:45:45 GMT
The idea the Catalyst is lying never made any sense because the Reapers have never had any reason to lie. In fact there was 0 reason for the Catalyst to even talk to you. The Crucible docked and nothing happened. No one knew what to do and if it wasn't for the Catalyst lifting Shepard up on the lift to talk to it then the Reapers would have won and simply moved on harvesting the races of the galaxy. To add to this, the people who say the Catalyst is lying always talk about only Control and Synthesis. What about Destroy? If they would lie, that would be the one they’d lie about more than the others. “Yes, if you damage the machine you built to kill us it will definitely do what you want and not be ruined.” Yet that one is treated as gospel truth while the others aren’t. Either it’s lying about all of them, or none of them. There is no purpose for it to pick and choose, and if there was it wouldn’t logically choose the way people say it would.
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Post by therevanchist25 on Dec 3, 2020 15:40:32 GMT
The thing about the Catalyst is that there was literally no need for it within the game. I disagree. The Catalyst is what turns the ending from a boring cliche into the ending I actually rather enjoy. Your enjoyment of it or not is irrelevant to weather or not it was actually needed. It was not.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Dec 3, 2020 15:42:23 GMT
To add to this, the people who say the Catalyst is lying always talk about only Control and Synthesis. What about Destroy? If they would lie, that would be the one they’d lie about more than the others. “Yes, if you damage the machine you built to kill us it will definitely do what you want and not be ruined.” Yet that one is treated as gospel truth while the others aren’t. Either it’s lying about all of them, or none of them. There is no purpose for it to pick and choose, and if there was it wouldn’t logically choose the way people say it would. Akshually ... I've made the argument that it would make more sense for the Catalyst to be lying entirely. Including the Destroy option. If the Catalyst has any sense of self-preservation instinct, or any understanding of its own directive, it would not let anyone interfere, or stop it, from executing the Cycle, including any notion of a "better" solution, like Synthesis, or Control, because it simply would not accept either of these as a viable solution. For example, even in the event of Synthesis, the Andromeda and Milky Way galaxies are on a collision course with each other. While the Reapers could be policing both galaxies, we don't know that as of the events of ME3, a Synthesis Milky Way would have a vested interest against a Synthetic or Organic Andromeda galaxy. The civilizations would not be able to co-exist. Therefore, even Synthesis, cannot be considered an ending to all conflict and it is, arguably, no better than letting the Cycle continue, other than it spares a few civilizations, who may or may not be suffering a far worse fate. Needless to say that Destroy itself puts the Catalyst's solution back into square one, with nobody there to stop organics from creating Synthetics or stopping the arisen Synthetics. It would therefore be an unacceptable solution to the Catalyst. In fact, it wouldn't be a solution, it would be a failure. So logically that would leave Control as the best option, right? The Catalyst would have to accept Control. Which brings us back to its self-preservation. The "Shepardlyst", as some have come to call it, would be a new being, that is no longer the Catalyst, nor Shepard. It effectively means the death of both. Why would the AI choose to self-terminate? I understand that Legion did it, but that was a bullshit excuse out of the blue, as well. First of all, it would be the Catalyst's admission of failure, which considering the process of analysis and prediction that an AI of that magnitude would be able to do, is simply unacceptable. Secondly, as an unshackled AI, the Catalyst would be able to continually better itself, to the point of 0 further improvement. The notion that in spite of that, the Catalyst would still need to be babysat by an organic, even when that organic is Shepard, is a huge undermining of the Catalyst itself. Lastly, and I know this is circumstantial, in the case of a mad dog Shepard, a ruthless, genocidal maniac that has a penchant for killing Batarians, how does that improve the Catalyst in any way? Surely, if the Catalyst can probe into Shepard's mind to find the child, it can also see further into Shepard's past and deeds to realize a merge with such an individual is unacceptable to it. And who is to say that, even in the event of a more mentally "balanced" Shepard, the Catalyst would ever accept this merger? The Catalyst would probably be able to run its own predictions, taking into account Shepard's decision making process, see the results of their merger and outright dismiss it, because to the Catalyst it will, more than likely, appear as a hindrance. The AI, after all, should have perfected itself, free from any and all barriers, to the point where the merging would produce an inferior program. In other words, the Starkid does not function in any way as a AI should, this particular AI most of all, but rather as an extension of the writers, guiding the players through a setpiece that would, otherwise, have no guidelines as to the options available. It is there because it is convenient and it operates like that, because the writers need it to, otherwise the premise doesn't work. And damn it all, if it makes sense or not. In spite of all that, don't let my analysis of the scene ruin your enjoyment of the game, or the scene. The feelings that it evokes in you, do not get nulled, just because I don't like it. Furthermore, nothing I say or do will change that scene and Bioware will never take it back. So what you like is secure and I am just an angry man, yelling at a cloud. It is all just conversation, at this point. So please, don't be mad at me, Hanako. That is just my opinion.
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ahglock
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Post by ahglock on Dec 3, 2020 16:09:26 GMT
The idea the Catalyst is lying never made any sense because the Reapers have never had any reason to lie. In fact there was 0 reason for the Catalyst to even talk to you. The Crucible docked and nothing happened. No one knew what to do and if it wasn't for the Catalyst lifting Shepard up on the lift to talk to it then the Reapers would have won and simply moved on harvesting the races of the galaxy. To add to this, the people who say the Catalyst is lying always talk about only Control and Synthesis. What about Destroy? If they would lie, that would be the one they’d lie about more than the others. “Yes, if you damage the machine you built to kill us it will definitely do what you want and not be ruined.” Yet that one is treated as gospel truth while the others aren’t. Either it’s lying about all of them, or none of them. There is no purpose for it to pick and choose, and if there was it wouldn’t logically choose the way people say it would. He isn't necessarily lying, he can be giving truths from a different perspective. Its pretty easy to use facts to lie or tell a narrative you like that isn't really true for the person you are talking too.
Control kind of explains it in its dialogue. The catalyst can tell Shepard he wont be indoctrinated which may be a truth but it doesn't tell him what the effect of becoming all powerful and immortal is. And I think its pretty clear that he becomes a tyrant who thinks hes doing the right thing, but a tyrant nonetheless. Something similar happens with Synthesis, yeah blah blah man and machine is melded. Edi can talk about how now she is alive, but it at the same time irrevocably killed all life and recreated it in a different image. Liara is dead, its something else that is standing there now. You can see it with how all the fundamental characteristics of each person gets melded into a one we are all together whole.
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ahglock
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Post by ahglock on Dec 3, 2020 16:11:53 GMT
Because Reapers value life (in a fashion) and want it to be unique and different each time. Given the harvesting thing that sound contradictory but their logic is based on the fact they think races are better preserved in Reaper form rather then lost forever to the fires of war. The total loss of a unique culture and people is terrible so they harvest them and preserve their entire culture in Reaper form. While at the same time they prevent the conflict from starting in the first place resetting the galaxy back to square one to repeat the process.
I know the whole concept sounds contradictory but it is the same sort of contradictory logic behind allowing endangered animals to be hunted for sport. Killing an endangered animal seems contradictory. But the fact the game wardens target old, sick or anti social animals to prevent any real damage to the group. The high price of it also provides money to help pay people to protect them from poachers that kill indiscriminately. It also stimulates the local economy which incentives people to set aside land for animals and to protect them as poachers would simply cut into their income.
It is actually a very good analogy to look at to understand how and why the Reapers operate. They view the races of the galaxy the same way we in the real world would view a cow, elephant or dog. They want to protect the herd that is organic life so they cull the old, sick and anti social before they wipe out the rest.
Lol given what you just said (not arguing here) but if the reapers are persevering races why does the succeeding races (at the time) only know the Protean race? what good is that? it would be awesome to know about the other races but that won't happen it's taken from us, as time moves on we as a thinking races know that the past races (according to history) have moved on but there should be evidence of past races other than just the one (pre Jarvik). They are what DCs braniac became not what DCs brainiac was meant to be. Preserving all for themselves but not for others.
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Gileadan
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Post by Gileadan on Dec 3, 2020 17:45:40 GMT
Reapers are zombies. I think the entire reaper plot doesn't make much sense as a whole. The reapers are presented as (and try to talk like) a group of nearly all-powerful, sentient and intelligent space constructs, but their actual behaviour is that of giant zombie spaceships. Like zombies, they are completely single minded, cannot deviate from their constantly repeating cycle of destruction, never negotiate and never relent. Like zombies, they either kill everything they come into contact with or infect it to become like them. Unfortunately, unlike zombies they also spout a lot of bullshit while they're doing it.
The cycle of extermination has gone on for an uncounted number of times, and none of those super intelligent, oh so superior space tin cans or their catalyst thought of trying something else (like killing the synthetics that are supposedly going to wipe out all organics, for example), and we all know the definition of insanity.
Also, the entire idea of synthetics killing organics so said organics can't construct synthetics that would eventually kill organics is hogwash. Being killed by synthetics is exactly what happens to the galaxy's civilizations every 50k years, by the reapers, not by something those civilizations created themselves, or have the reapers ever been "too late"? The notable race of synthetics of the current cycle are the geth, who seem far more sentient than the reapers who kill everyone to protect the galaxy from synthetics. Geth can have different opinions and form a consensus, they immediately recognize when violence is no longer necessary and so on. Reapers can only kill.
Which potential scenario would be worse than the reapers? A race of synthetics that is just as powerful (otherwise they could be defeated by conventional military means) and just as hellbent on destruction as the reapers are, except that they kill all civilizations in the galaxy, not just the ones that are about to create synthetic beings. But, if we assume that sooner or later every civilization reaches that stage, the reapers will have the same effect in the long run. Or maybe life will always find a way and as time passes, new planets will bear life that will evolve into a civilization of sentient beings in time. In that case, the reapers don't make much of a difference because organic life will always return. The reaper cycle is a galaxy wide genocide in the uncounted trillions every 50k years, just to prevent a highly unlikely "what if" scenario.
And none of those superior synthetics realizes it. Because from the way they act, they're essentially zombies.
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Post by Son of Dorn on Dec 3, 2020 18:00:58 GMT
Reapers are zombies. I think the entire reaper plot doesn't make much sense as a whole. The reapers are presented as (and try to talk like) a group of nearly all-powerful, sentient and intelligent space constructs, but their actual behaviour is that of giant zombie spaceships. Like zombies, they are completely single minded, cannot deviate from their constantly repeating cycle of destruction, never negotiate and never relent. Like zombies, they either kill everything they come into contact with or infect it to become like them. Unfortunately, unlike zombies they also spout a lot of bullshit while they're doing it. The cycle of extermination has gone on for an uncounted number of times, and none of those super intelligent, oh so superior space tin cans or their catalyst thought of trying something else (like killing the synthetics that are supposedly going to wipe out all organics, for example), and we all know the definition of insanity. Also, the entire idea of synthetics killing organics so said organics can't construct synthetics that would eventually kill organics is hogwash. Being killed by synthetics is exactly what happens to the galaxy's civilizations every 50k years, by the reapers, not by something those civilizations created themselves, or have the reapers ever been "too late"? The notable race of synthetics of the current cycle are the geth, who seem far more sentient than the reapers who kill everyone to protect the galaxy from synthetics. Geth can have different opinions and form a consensus, they immediately recognize when violence is no longer necessary and so on. Reapers can only kill. Which potential scenario would be worse than the reapers? A race of synthetics that is just as powerful (otherwise they could be defeated by conventional military means) and just as hellbent on destruction as the reapers are, except that they kill all civilizations in the galaxy, not just the ones that are about to create synthetic beings. But, if we assume that sooner or later every civilization reaches that stage, the reapers will have the same effect in the long run. Or maybe life will always find a way and as time passes, new planets will bear life that will evolve into a civilization of sentient beings in time. In that case, the reapers don't make much of a difference because organic life will always return. The reaper cycle is a galaxy wide genocide in the uncounted trillions every 50k years, just to prevent a highly unlikely "what if" scenario. And none of those superior synthetics realizes it. Because from the way they act, they're essentially zombies. Not to mention that they create an army of cyborg zombies from the races that they harvest (which kinda goes against what they say when their whole goal is to preserve said races).
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Post by AnDromedary on Dec 3, 2020 18:20:21 GMT
One point of order: The reapers were never depicted as all powerful. Very powerful yes but from the very first time we actually have a conversation with one, it is made clear that they have limits. It is made clear by the fact that Sovereign himself admits that Mass Relays and the left behind Mass Effect tech were a deliberate trap to steer the development of every cycle into a direction which the reapers could predict and control. To me, that made clear from the start that the reapers were balancing a precarious system and the fact that the protheans managed to throw a wrench in it shows again - even in Mass Effect 1 - that the reapers are far from all powerful or infallible. I agree though, that a) the reaper plan to wait out in dark space was seriously flawed and b ) that their entire reasoning as explained during the ending was complete nonsensical BS. That problem b is really contained to the final 10 minutes of the trilogy though. As multiple ending mods, fan fiction alternatives, forum entries and re-edited videos showed, it can easily be rectified by just changing that stupid catalyst conversation and what came after.
There really is nothing in the games before that even particularly hints at that resolution (probably because it was only made up at the very end of development anyway).
And on a side note, quite remarkably, Andromeda manages to mess it up even further by introducing the fact that even races far less advanced than the reapers can achieve intergalactic travel. This makes the reaper's cycle to "safeguard" organic life in the milky way but nowhere else even more stupid because from the reapers own logic, it would follow that genocidal synthetic life would develop in another galaxy and - not bound by the cycle of stagnation that the reapers enforce in the MW - eventually would come over to wipe everyone out, reapers included.
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ahglock
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Post by ahglock on Dec 3, 2020 21:12:54 GMT
That's one of the reasons I wish Andromeda had gone with something other than a fancy new drive for how they got there.
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