linksocarina
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Post by linksocarina on Apr 24, 2020 17:19:27 GMT
That's why it's kind of dumb, it's not a debate when you made up your mind already. No one really cares about debating that, except those who feel personally affected by it. Everyone knows the franchise is flawed, though what you focus on is so pedantic that, quite honestly, is just leading to circular arguments that get nowhere. Folks tend to overly praise lore in games as it is. But to take it like gospel when it does change as the game changes is a form of rigid fundamentalism that is actually antithetical to good debate. Everyone in this forum has made up minds already, no one in this forum is ever going to change their perspective about anything regarding ME at this point. So do not sit here and act like only one "side" of the debate has this mentality. I also cannot disagree enough with the statement of Narrative Consistency being a pedantic flaw. That has to frankly be the most ridiculous mentality I've ever seen. To sit here and brush aside horribly bad writing as no big deal because "Change happens, who cares?" Is apathy to such extreme levels that I wonder why anyone with such a mentality would ever bother with a story focused game to begin with. Yes, changes happen. That does not mean they get a free pass. I will sit on the side here and laugh, because i'm frankly sick of folks sniping at each other over something that is so meaningless, as if you're actually trying to bring in insight into something. And that goes for everyone, really. Don't presume i'm picking favorites, i'm just pointing out poor arguments. As to the rest, the issue you bring up still pedantic because of personal bias of expecting a logical change where there is not one. You presume a lot with it being apathy on my end then attack mentality for some reason, but the real problem here is what I actually said before; you're looking for something that is not there by design. ETA: Cleaning this up a bit, because I am probably coming off too angry. I did have one thought for you to consider before I go back to work, Is the Council Logical?
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Post by alanc9 on Apr 24, 2020 18:04:53 GMT
not having the option to work with Cerberus
not enough renegade interrupts not getting a game over screen because ems was too low when heading to Earth
not having another option when it came to choosing an ending Harbinger not having a bigger role not having ME2 squadmates, not counting the turian and quarian, on the roster the sequence with the destroyer on Rannoch the beam run having Legion and Tali in the game to get peace whereas Wrex and Mordin weren't needed to cure the genophage no dlc for space hamster
What's the "another option" you have in mind? Not a bad list, but some of these strike me as being fairly expensive. I don't see how the ME3 budget could ever have been much bigger than it was and still get approved.
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Post by therevanchist25 on Apr 24, 2020 18:18:02 GMT
Everyone in this forum has made up minds already, no one in this forum is ever going to change their perspective about anything regarding ME at this point. So do not sit here and act like only one "side" of the debate has this mentality. I also cannot disagree enough with the statement of Narrative Consistency being a pedantic flaw. That has to frankly be the most ridiculous mentality I've ever seen. To sit here and brush aside horribly bad writing as no big deal because "Change happens, who cares?" Is apathy to such extreme levels that I wonder why anyone with such a mentality would ever bother with a story focused game to begin with. Yes, changes happen. That does not mean they get a free pass. I will sit on the side here and laugh, because i'm frankly sick of folks sniping at each other over something that is so meaningless, as if you're actually trying to bring in insight into something. And that goes for everyone, really. Don't presume i'm picking favorites, i'm just pointing out poor arguments. As to the rest, the issue you bring up still pedantic because of personal bias of expecting a logical change where there is not one. You presume a lot with it being apathy on my end then attack mentality for some reason, but the real problem here is what I actually said before; you're looking for something that is not there by design. ETA: Cleaning this up a bit, because I am probably coming off too angry. I did have one thought for you to consider before I go back to work, Is the Council Logical? Of course their not, that is the problem. they are written counter to not only common sense, but also themselves from the previous game. The Council is the ultimate representation of why ME is a horribly written piece of fiction.
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Post by themikefest on Apr 24, 2020 18:20:19 GMT
What's the "another option" you have in mind? This option that posted a few years ago in a thread I created Take away a couple of them, dlc for space hamster and working with Cerberus, the rest shouldn't be too bad depending on how they're added in the game.
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N5
Always teacher, sometimes writer
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PSN: LinksOcarina
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Post by linksocarina on Apr 24, 2020 18:30:59 GMT
I will sit on the side here and laugh, because i'm frankly sick of folks sniping at each other over something that is so meaningless, as if you're actually trying to bring in insight into something. And that goes for everyone, really. Don't presume i'm picking favorites, i'm just pointing out poor arguments. As to the rest, the issue you bring up still pedantic because of personal bias of expecting a logical change where there is not one. You presume a lot with it being apathy on my end then attack mentality for some reason, but the real problem here is what I actually said before; you're looking for something that is not there by design. ETA: Cleaning this up a bit, because I am probably coming off too angry. I did have one thought for you to consider before I go back to work, Is the Council Logical? Of course their not, that is the problem. they are written counter to not only common sense, but also themselves from the previous game. The Council is the ultimate representation of why ME is a horribly written piece of fiction. Why are they a representation of it being horribly written then when all we see is them being illogical consistantly, as you imply here? Why is it a problem?
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Post by therevanchist25 on Apr 24, 2020 22:22:45 GMT
Of course their not, that is the problem. they are written counter to not only common sense, but also themselves from the previous game. The Council is the ultimate representation of why ME is a horribly written piece of fiction. Why are they a representation of it being horribly written then when all we see is them being illogical consistantly, as you imply here? Why is it a problem? Is this a serious question? That is bad writing. Period.
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Post by cloud9 on Apr 25, 2020 0:49:29 GMT
Also.
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N5
Always teacher, sometimes writer
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
PSN: LinksOcarina
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Post by linksocarina on Apr 25, 2020 16:35:31 GMT
Why are they a representation of it being horribly written then when all we see is them being illogical consistantly, as you imply here? Why is it a problem? Is this a serious question? That is bad writing. Period. Ok. Now give me your thesis. Just saying this is bad writing is not evidence. This is just in opinion this is bad writing. Not to mention poor evidence, when one video is a joke video and you make no connection between the two other than it being bad writing. See, the thing that I kind of have to point out is the council is not out of character in Mass Effect 2 between Mass Effect 1. When you actually look at the script and the words of the Council, they were always suspicious of Shepards Reaper claim and focused on the Saren threat as the top priority. Even with Sovereign in the Citadel mentioned by the Asari councilor, the issue we have is how washy the Council always was. The scene in full in Mass Effect 2 where they argue the point is actually emblematic of their behavior for physical evidence in 1. (Minute 1:11 on) Contrast this to both Mass Effect 1 and Mass Effect 3. Notice how the Council always acts, very hesitantly, very cautiously, and honestly, kind of foolish because of their own self-interests, like the Turian councilor throughout. So, where is the bad writing when the characters on the council, if saved mind you, are consistent? If it's a claim that they contradict the ending speech in 1 with dismissing the reapers in 2, part of the problem now is personal view of it being bad writing. Thats is subjective without much else to prove it other than opinion. If were following that blog you posted as the guideline, I have one big issue with it, its that he never really gives a compelling argument to this point: Mass Effect 1's tone was not necessarily always about knowledge and exploration, though it was a selling point of its design. That is basically thrown out the window on Eden Prime when Shepard IS set up as the 'chosen one' due to the Reaper beacon and the singular pursuit against Saren. Exploration was a side-gig, almost an afterthought to the main narrative that lots of people did by driving with tank controls. In fact, when that became the primary theme was mostly in Andromeda of all games. And one of the reasons I can say that is authorial intent. Developer interviews at the time more or less contradict that as being a primary theme. It is part of the design first, and all talk of exploration is tied directly to that. To quote Hudson specifically from IGN in 2007, I feel the writer of the blog mistook the core themes and replaced it with their driving force of enjoyment. This is actually fine, but we should acknowledge authorial intent before we start projecting what we think the games are about, especially if were arguing facts. So we can argue poor writing for a two year gap of events happening to make a 'status quo', but the issue at hand is this was the state BioWare wanted. They wanted someone special for their protagonist, and you kind of got that. I fall along the lines of Gervais and his analysis here (minute 34:13) when he talks about 'seasons of a TV show' and 'Cerberus being the only game in town.' It's functional, but jarring, but also necessary due to time, cost and budget. So yeah. This is why you make poor arguments honestly.
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Post by alanc9 on Apr 25, 2020 17:52:37 GMT
Oh, god, "core themes." I did enough time in literature departments to really distrust thematic analysis, particularly when it's divorced from any authorial intent. It usually turns out to be about projecting ideology into the text.
Concerning, chiosen ones, it's funny that ME1 is the game where this is literally true, since Shepard has the visions and nobody else can.
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Post by therevanchist25 on Apr 25, 2020 18:34:54 GMT
Is this a serious question? That is bad writing. Period. Ok. Now give me your thesis. Just saying this is bad writing is not evidence. This is just in opinion this is bad writing. Not to mention poor evidence, when one video is a joke video and you make no connection between the two other than it being bad writing. See, the thing that I kind of have to point out is the council is not out of character in Mass Effect 2 between Mass Effect 1. When you actually look at the script and the words of the Council, they were always suspicious of Shepards Reaper claim and focused on the Saren threat as the top priority. Even with Sovereign in the Citadel mentioned by the Asari councilor, the issue we have is how washy the Council always was. The scene in full in Mass Effect 2 where they argue the point is actually emblematic of their behavior for physical evidence in 1. (Minute 1:11 on) Contrast this to both Mass Effect 1 and Mass Effect 3. Notice how the Council always acts, very hesitantly, very cautiously, and honestly, kind of foolish because of their own self-interests, like the Turian councilor throughout. So, where is the bad writing when the characters on the council, if saved mind you, are consistent? If it's a claim that they contradict the ending speech in 1 with dismissing the reapers in 2, part of the problem now is personal view of it being bad writing. Thats is subjective without much else to prove it other than opinion. If were following that blog you posted as the guideline, I have one big issue with it, its that he never really gives a compelling argument to this point: Mass Effect 1's tone was not necessarily always about knowledge and exploration, though it was a selling point of its design. That is basically thrown out the window on Eden Prime when Shepard IS set up as the 'chosen one' due to the Reaper beacon and the singular pursuit against Saren. Exploration was a side-gig, almost an afterthought to the main narrative that lots of people did by driving with tank controls. In fact, when that became the primary theme was mostly in Andromeda of all games. And one of the reasons I can say that is authorial intent. Developer interviews at the time more or less contradict that as being a primary theme. It is part of the design first, and all talk of exploration is tied directly to that. To quote Hudson specifically from IGN in 2007, I feel the writer of the blog mistook the core themes and replaced it with their driving force of enjoyment. This is actually fine, but we should acknowledge authorial intent before we start projecting what we think the games are about, especially if were arguing facts. So we can argue poor writing for a two year gap of events happening to make a 'status quo', but the issue at hand is this was the state BioWare wanted. They wanted someone special for their protagonist, and you kind of got that. I fall along the lines of Gervais and his analysis here (minute 34:13) when he talks about 'seasons of a TV show' and 'Cerberus being the only game in town.' It's functional, but jarring, but also necessary due to time, cost and budget. So yeah. This is why you make poor arguments honestly. "This is what the author wanted to do, therefor the writing makes total sense". I'm sorry that's not an argument. The author can be wrong about their decisions. Deciding they want to change something does not just automatically mean the change makes sense because that is what the author wants. You say the blog writer mistook the themes, but I counter that, because I don't think Bioware actually knew what themes they wanted. Because as you say, changes happen. As far as "author intent" regarding the first and second game? According to Shepards last line of dialogue, the author failed miserably. Shepard walks off saying their going to find a way to stop them. After that moment Shepard never spends another second actually trying to do that until ME3. Sure Shep stops them from harvesting colonies for now, but their not trying to stop them, overall. They are making no effort to actually find out anything about them. THAT is the story the ending of 1 clearly implies. To suggest otherwise is being intentionally difficult.
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Post by therevanchist25 on Apr 25, 2020 18:50:29 GMT
Oh, god, "core themes." I did enough time in literature departments to really distrust thematic analysis, particularly when it's divorced from any authorial intent. It usually turns out to be about projecting ideology into the text. Concerning, chiosen ones, it's funny that ME1 is the game where this is literally true, since Shepard has the visions and nobody else can. Technically, anyone else can get those visions. if a squad mate uses the Virmire Becon, they'll have the visions too. That is hardly the premise of a "Chosen One". How do I know that? Because Saren also got the visions from using the Becon. There is nothing stopping the writers except themselves from giving the visions to multiple people, and allowing the Cypher to get transferred around to people who need the information. That is not the basis of a Chosen One story, because a Chosen One posses gifts, or skills or something plot relevant that LITERALLY no one else has even the possibility of attaining.
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Post by alanc9 on Apr 26, 2020 3:27:50 GMT
Assuming that another squadmate can use the Virmire beacon without ending up like Manuel, of course. We don't know the percentage of people who can use a beacon without going nuts.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Apr 27, 2020 16:08:24 GMT
We don't know the percentage of people who can use a beacon without going nuts. 1 for Shepard 1 for Manuel I give it a 50/50 chance, under those numbers. Considering how more active people are healthier and how this activity can help them recover faster from injuries, I'd say anyone that makes it on Shepard's squad has a better chance of survival, than the average Joe. Of course, Manuel could have been a goddamn Adonis, prior to this for all we know, but we have no evidence of that.
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Post by therevanchist25 on Apr 27, 2020 20:01:15 GMT
We don't know the percentage of people who can use a beacon without going nuts. 1 for Shepard 1 for Manuel I give it a 50/50 chance, under those numbers. Considering how more active people are healthier and how this activity can help them recover faster from injuries, I'd say anyone that makes it on Shepard's squad has a better chance of survival, than the average Joe. Of course, Manuel could have been a goddamn Adonis, prior to this for all we know, but we have no evidence of that. also 1 for Saren. He didn't go nuts, he just surrendered to despair.
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Post by KaiserShep on Apr 27, 2020 22:34:39 GMT
Assuming that another squadmate can use the Virmire beacon without ending up like Manuel, of course. We don't know the percentage of people who can use a beacon without going nuts. I'm 100% certain Conrad Verner would survive the encounter with his mind intact. "I saw it, Shepard! The end......they were everywhere. The Protheans, they ruled the galaxy....and then they died. It was so weird."
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Post by cloud9 on Apr 28, 2020 0:14:24 GMT
Speaking of Conrad Verner, he's a complete childish and a retarded grown ass man. Why does he act like a child around people, and a massive hero worshipper of the main character in the worst way? This is why I despise the Hero Worship tropes on mature video games. Unless, he's a 8 year old child who wants to be a soldier of the Alliance when he grows up, and seeing Commander Shepard and wanted to be like him/her. That would be an entire different story if he was a kid.
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Post by Phantom on Apr 28, 2020 1:38:49 GMT
Speaking of Conrad Verner, he's a complete childish and a retarded grown ass man. Why does he act like a child around people, and a massive hero worshipper of the main character in the worst way? This is why I despise the Hero Worship tropes on mature video games. Unless, he's a 8 year old child who wants to be a soldier of the Alliance when he grows up, and seeing Commander Shepard and wanted to be like him/her. That would be an entire different story if he was a kid. Well me being nice here, he is a man-child.
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Post by therevanchist25 on Apr 28, 2020 2:42:30 GMT
Speaking of Conrad Verner, he's a complete childish and a retarded grown ass man. Why does he act like a child around people, and a massive hero worshipper of the main character in the worst way? This is why I despise the Hero Worship tropes on mature video games. Unless, he's a 8 year old child who wants to be a soldier of the Alliance when he grows up, and seeing Commander Shepard and wanted to be like him/her. That would be an entire different story if he was a kid. Well me being nice here, he is a man-child. With a PhD in black hole theory.....figure THAT shit out.
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Post by Phantom on Apr 28, 2020 3:27:44 GMT
Well me being nice here, he is a man-child. With a PhD in black hole theory.....figure THAT shit out. Well Being a Man Child is about their immaturity, Not their intelligence....In short, you can be an PHd and still be immature enough to be a man-child. Conrad's failings is due to his social ineptness and thus comes across as a Man-child.
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Post by KaiserShep on Apr 28, 2020 3:37:50 GMT
Speaking of Conrad Verner, he's a complete childish and a retarded grown ass man. Why does he act like a child around people, and a massive hero worshipper of the main character in the worst way? This is why I despise the Hero Worship tropes on mature video games. Unless, he's a 8 year old child who wants to be a soldier of the Alliance when he grows up, and seeing Commander Shepard and wanted to be like him/her. That would be an entire different story if he was a kid. Conrad Verner was designed to be an in-joke playing on the common tropes of these games, sort of like Jenkins, who was also a play on the popular Leeroy Jenkins meme. I mean, dude dies a hilarious death in any of the games if you don’t complete the quests in either.
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Post by cloud9 on Apr 28, 2020 16:41:40 GMT
Speaking of Conrad Verner, he's a complete childish and a retarded grown ass man. Why does he act like a child around people, and a massive hero worshipper of the main character in the worst way? This is why I despise the Hero Worship tropes on mature video games. Unless, he's a 8 year old child who wants to be a soldier of the Alliance when he grows up, and seeing Commander Shepard and wanted to be like him/her. That would be an entire different story if he was a kid. Conrad Verner was designed to be an in-joke playing on the common tropes of these games, sort of like Jenkins, who was also a play on the popular Leeroy Jenkins meme. I mean, dude dies a hilarious death in any of the games if you don’t complete the quests in either. The design was very crappy on their part. What would be the point of killing off a character, other than having Ashley in your team? They could easily set up a 4 man team, and make Verner a kid that looks up to Shepard because he wanted to be a soldier.
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Post by cloud9 on Apr 28, 2020 17:41:10 GMT
This! Just to irk cloud9sumthin guy. Jokes aside. Does he even have a life other than nitpicking about Bioware games and repeatedly creating questionable threads just to argue. Probably taken up by spamming other forums with YT links about stuff that's 8 years old. Are they wrong, tho?
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Post by KaiserShep on Apr 28, 2020 21:04:00 GMT
Conrad Verner was designed to be an in-joke playing on the common tropes of these games, sort of like Jenkins, who was also a play on the popular Leeroy Jenkins meme. I mean, dude dies a hilarious death in any of the games if you don’t complete the quests in either. The design was very crappy on their part. What would be the point of killing off a character, other than having Ashley in your team? They could easily set up a 4 man team, and make Verner a kid that looks up to Shepard because he wanted to be a soldier. Hey, well you know what they say about opinions. He was just a gag added to the game, and you can just ignore him and let him die in ME1. I assume the point of Jenkins is partly to be a joke, hence the name, and I guess a bit of something to add to Ashley’s character’s internal conflict. Jenkins didn’t mean shit to me anyway, so it’s fine.
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Post by cloud9 on Apr 29, 2020 0:37:16 GMT
The design was very crappy on their part. What would be the point of killing off a character, other than having Ashley in your team? They could easily set up a 4 man team, and make Verner a kid that looks up to Shepard because he wanted to be a soldier. Hey, well you know what they say about opinions. He was just a gag added to the game, and you can just ignore him and let him die in ME1. I assume the point of Jenkins is partly to be a joke, hence the name, and I guess a bit of something to add to Ashley’s character’s internal conflict. Jenkins didn’t mean shit to me anyway, so it’s fine. Joker cracked jokes and they didn't killed him off in the game. That is just a poor excuse to kill off a character because they're are a "gag character." If anything, they could've made him die in a heroic way, like sacrificing himself to save the colonists from a horde of Geth and mutated husks. Or died by saving a little girl from being mutilated from husks/indoctrinated humans. But they have to kill him off to get a new character in their team. Which it was very stupid decision.
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Post by KaiserShep on Apr 29, 2020 0:38:43 GMT
Hey, well you know what they say about opinions. He was just a gag added to the game, and you can just ignore him and let him die in ME1. I assume the point of Jenkins is partly to be a joke, hence the name, and I guess a bit of something to add to Ashley’s character’s internal conflict. Jenkins didn’t mean shit to me anyway, so it’s fine. Joker cracked jokes and they didn't killed him off in the game. That is just a poor excuse to kill off a character because they're are a "gag character." If anything, they could've made him die in a heroic way, like sacrificing himself to save the colonists from a horde of Geth and mutated husks, or saved a little girl from being mutilated from husks/indoctrinated humans. But they have to kill him off to get a new character in their team, which it was very stupid decision. Jenkins didn’t crack jokes; he was a joke. The whole point of his existence was to die. Agree or no, but there’s no heroic death that would’ve been meaningful. It would be too soon and no one cares.
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