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Post by Nightscrawl on May 4, 2020 18:48:46 GMT
Of the three females, surely one will be to your liking. Eh... I'm a straight woman who had four options in DAI. I didn't like any of them and eventually went with the gay dude. It's slightly more nuanced than that, but that's the gist. No one is guaranteed to like any of the LI options, nor are they entitled to get one that pushes all their buttons (orientation aside; I'm all for equality there). I don't romance anyone in DAO and am just fine with that.
It's also not solely about the follower's looks, but also the flavor of their romance. If I were inclined to romance woman, Cassandra would be a top choice because I like her a whole bunch and think she's hot, but her traditional romance arc doesn't do anything for me. I just don't find it compelling in how I want characters to come together in a relationship.
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by Cyberstrike on May 4, 2020 19:00:14 GMT
Man I'm insulted that you did not think that Cassandra was beautiful. Shame on you!
The same here Cassandra was beautiful. I thought Sera was cute.
I thought Josephine was drop dead knockout beautiful. I thought Leliana was beautiful in BOTH DA:O and DA:I I thought Isabella was beautiful in DA2. I thought Merrill was sexy in DA2.
I think Morigan was ugly as sin in DA:O and she still so a thing for me in DA:O.
I wouldn't fuck Vivienne without a kelvin condom.
I don't find a stuck up superior attitude, rudeness, and arrogance sexy in women or men at all.
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Post by Gwydden on May 4, 2020 19:21:49 GMT
On Reddit I encountered someone gushing that Cassandra finally represented a tomboy and she was just high in the clouds happy there was someone finally representing herself reflected in a video game. Maybe the looks aren't there to make your pants uncomfortable. Just an idea That was exactly my point earlier, or at least one of my points, delivered much more concisely. Cassandra is a love interest for straight male PCs exclusively, but she's not designed (visually, personality-wise, or in terms of her romance arc) to appeal to straight men in the way video games typically do. I see much more love and praise for Cassandra from women than any other demographic. DA:I in particular eschews the male gaze much more than perhaps any other RPG I've come across, hence the controversy that generates threads like this one. And to be clear, I never stated that's bad, merely curious. Should love interests be designed on the basis of what the target demographic tends to find attractive? No, probably not. At worst, that'd be bland and fail to please anyone; at best, it means Bioware will never cater to more niche preferences. And most everyone has at least some of those, I wager. I'd still be very interested in finding out what Bioware's rationale behind each love interest is. Fictional characters' sexual orientation is usually arbitrary, so why one and not the other?
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Post by phoray on May 4, 2020 20:28:47 GMT
Fictional characters' sexual orientation is usually arbitrary, so why one and not the other? it's possible they kept her straight to buck the stereotype that strong butch women have to be lesbians.
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Post by Nightscrawl on May 4, 2020 20:29:58 GMT
Fictional characters' sexual orientation is usually arbitrary, so why one and not the other? That's not how character writers typically think, though. Writers tend to think and feel their characters; they "live" in the writer's head. I know one who says, "I had no idea he was going to ___, but he insisted," or "I don't know [fact]. He hasn't told me."
I already knew this from a friend, but this piece shows it's not uncommon. It's not "arbitrary" in the sense that it is a piece of the whole picture that writer has of that character. In a similar vein, sometimes certain concepts just click for a writer. In very early concept art, Vivienne was originally a blond-haired, white ice queen (personality type), but when her writer saw the concept of her as a black woman, she was like, "YES!" That image helped to solidify who Vivienne, the person, was in Mary Kirby's mind.
Unfortunately, the video is no longer publicly available =/
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Post by vertigomez on May 4, 2020 20:39:17 GMT
Fictional characters' sexual orientation is usually arbitrary, so why one and not the other? it's possible they kept her straight to buck the stereotype that strong butch women have to be lesbians. This ends up being frustrating, though, because there are never any butch women who're into women. It's like they're so afraid of the stereotype that they phase butch lesbian characters completely out of existence 😕 (even though there are plenty of butch women in the world and women who are attracted to butch women). We're inundated with femmes. The only butch wlw character so far is Branka lol. ALAS.
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Post by Nightscrawl on May 4, 2020 20:41:30 GMT
The only butch wlw character so far is Branka lol. ALAS. Ah yes. The paragon of stability.
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Post by Gwydden on May 4, 2020 20:48:16 GMT
it's possible they kept her straight to buck the stereotype that strong butch women have to be lesbians. That's my thinking as well. That's not how character writers typically think, though. Writers tend to think and feel their characters; they "live" in the writer's head. I know one who says, "I had no idea he was going to ___, but he insisted," or "I don't know [fact]. He hasn't told me."
I already knew this from a friend, but this piece shows it's not uncommon. It's not "arbitrary" in the sense that it is a piece of the whole picture that writer has of that character. In a similar vein, sometimes certain concepts just click for a writer. In very early concept art, Vivienne was originally a blond-haired, white ice queen (personality type), but when her writer saw the concept of her as a black woman, she was like, "YES!" That image helped to solidify who Vivienne, the person, was in Mary Kirby's mind. As someone who has done his fair share of writing and enjoys reading writers talk about their craft, I'm in the camp which believes that sort of thinking is nonsense that makes you sound like a crazy person ![:lol:](//storage.proboards.com/6576594/images/qUctXNjCPgwPaLsZeKry.png) I'm very much an advocate of fiction being seen as what it is, artificial and purposeful, and notions of a story having some platonic existence prior to their conception make for pleasant poetics but are ultimately a disingenuous attempt to avoid personal responsibility. Even leaving that aside, I wouldn't buy that explanation from Bioware for a second. There's too much obvious fiddling with the options behind the scenes—romances in the ME games consistently favor straight male Shepards; there's an obvious concern for making the roster fair in DA:I—. How convenient that the characters' desires are always in lines with the developer's purpose! They even came clean about it in DA2, where they knew they couldn't have that many options and made everyone bi for fairness' sake.
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Post by Nightscrawl on May 4, 2020 20:57:00 GMT
Even leaving that aside, I wouldn't buy that explanation from Bioware for a second. Well when you start calling them liars there's no point continuing the discussion. They're their characters; they wrote them. I don't deny that there are also outside forces at work more so in game dev than in typical fiction writing, but neither am I going to disregard what the writers themselves have said about their own process.
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Post by andydandymandy on May 4, 2020 21:00:50 GMT
Fictional characters' sexual orientation is usually arbitrary, so why one and not the other? That's not how character writers typically think, though. Writers tend to think and feel their characters; they "live" in the writer's head. I know one who says, "I had no idea he was going to ___, but he insisted," or "I don't know [fact]. He hasn't told me."
I already knew this from a friend, but this piece shows it's not uncommon. It's not "arbitrary" in the sense that it is a piece of the whole picture that writer has of that character. In a similar vein, sometimes certain concepts just click for a writer. In very early concept art, Vivienne was originally a blond-haired, white ice queen (personality type), but when her writer saw the concept of her as a black woman, she was like, "YES!" That image helped to solidify who Vivienne, the person, was in Mary Kirby's mind.
Unfortunately, the video is no longer publicly available =/
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Post by DragonKingReborn on May 4, 2020 21:03:26 GMT
"The Old Wolf" ![:ytho:](//storage.proboards.com/6576594/images/TUgrlfNNaXpwHBFXXqJf.png)
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Post by Gwydden on May 4, 2020 21:12:52 GMT
"The Old Wolf" ![:ytho:](//storage.proboards.com/6576594/images/TUgrlfNNaXpwHBFXXqJf.png) He wears a wolf's jawbone as a collar and has a massive painting of a wolf in his quarters in Skyhold. It wasn't terribly subtle, in retrospect
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Post by DragonKingReborn on May 4, 2020 21:15:54 GMT
"The Old Wolf" ![:ytho:](//storage.proboards.com/6576594/images/TUgrlfNNaXpwHBFXXqJf.png) He wears a wolf's jawbone as a collar and has a massive painting of a wolf in his quarters in Skyhold. It wasn't terribly subtle, in retrospect True. Although he could've just been a super-fan.
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Post by LadyofNemesis on May 4, 2020 21:23:17 GMT
He wears a wolf's jawbone as a collar and has a massive painting of a wolf in his quarters in Skyhold. It wasn't terribly subtle, in retrospect True. Although he could've just been a super-fan. I was personally more laughing at "Dexter butterfly" ...then saw that was Vivienne, and I was like "in what part is she a butterfly? Social butterfly maybe?"
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Post by DragonKingReborn on May 4, 2020 21:27:24 GMT
My favourite(s) are actually;
"Dirty Robin Hood" and "Varric"...because he doesn't need a nickname. Varric. Doesn't need a nickname...
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Post by LadyofNemesis on May 4, 2020 21:30:47 GMT
My favourite(s) are actually; "Dirty Robin Hood" and "Varric"...because he doesn't need a nickname. Varric. Doesn't need a nickname... what if it is a nickname? What if Varric isn't his real name?
nah, I jest...I also like the nickname they gave Dorian, I mean "Rock star mage" that's him to a T
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Post by phoray on May 4, 2020 21:33:51 GMT
"Dirty Robin Hood" and "Varric"... whoops, I read that as Sera, not Varric. I wasn't watching this video too much, just listening. How is Varric Dirty Robin hood? I also like the nickname they gave Dorian, I mean "Rock star mage" that's him to a T I actually thought it only connected with the sparkles on his base clothes. When Gaider called him Tevinter Tony Stark, I was like, ya. That matches.
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Post by DragonKingReborn on May 4, 2020 21:35:10 GMT
"Dirty Robin Hood" and "Varric"... whoops, I read that as Sera, not Varric. I wasn't watching this video too much, just listening. How is Varric Dirty Robin hood? Sorry - it is Sera. They're all described by nicknames without being named. Except Varric. Who gives everyone nicknames.
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Post by alanc9 on May 4, 2020 23:59:38 GMT
As someone who has done his fair share of writing and enjoys reading writers talk about their craft, I'm in the camp which believes that sort of thinking is nonsense that makes you sound like a crazy person ![:lol:](//storage.proboards.com/6576594/images/qUctXNjCPgwPaLsZeKry.png) I'm very much an advocate of fiction being seen as what it is, artificial and purposeful, and notions of a story having some platonic existence prior to their conception make for pleasant poetics but are ultimately a disingenuous attempt to avoid personal responsibility. Let's not conflate a lack of a consciously chosen plan with the story really having some sort existence outside of the author. I'm pretty sure that's supposed to be a metaphor for the author's subconscious. And many creators do work this way. I suppose I thought of this because I was joking about trans LIs earlier, but Claire from Questionable Content was sketched for a long time before she actually made it into the strip. As the author says, "No idea who this is, but she’s been showing up in my sketchbook a lot lately." Although not everything about her was subconsciously determined; Jacques had wanted to include a trans character for some time, and Claire was the most likely extant candidate when he decided to go through with it. (Eventually making her the lead character's girlfriend was either the natural outcome of character development, or blatant fanservice, or maybe both.) Gene Wolfe used a hybrid conscious/unconscious process for The Book of the New Sun, which was apparently his preferred M.O.. Severian started out as a character sketch too, although a conscious one; Wolfe realized that he'd never done any character you could cosplay, and he wanted to change that. The work turned from a novella into a tetralogy of novels because as he wrote it, more plots and subplots kept coming up, and he had to keep writing more to see how they came out. Well, you can take the romance slots you want and see how they shake out with the characters you have. Assuming the characters are a diverse lot to begin with, you shouldn't need to do too many rewrites. Obviously, if you want a lot of females available t a male PC, you need to have good female representation in the characters to start with, but that's never been a problem for Bio.
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Post by Gwydden on May 5, 2020 1:01:30 GMT
Let's not conflate a lack of a consciously chosen plan with the story really having some sort existence outside of the author. Yes, this is what I imagine is literally happening in those instances. But if you feel subconsciously that a character is this or that orientation, there's probably still an explanation, even if the author is not consciously aware of it. I also doubt that every single character's orientation was chosen subconsciously, and you yourself name instances of that. That there is a significant degree of intentionality behind the romances is clear to me from much of what the devs have said, including their oft stated goal to explore heretofore unseen romantic archetypes like a female qunari or a gay knight in shining armor, or even rumors of polyamorous and trans romances. That too, but that only kicks the can down further and brings us back to the first point. I think it's undeniable that the way Bioware distributes romances changes a lot from game to game. I don't think it's an accident that straight men have been the most consistently privileged group, and the relatively recent concern with fairness (more in DA than in ME) is clearly born out of a change in studio culture and the society at large.
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Post by trengilly on May 5, 2020 1:46:36 GMT
I suspect Bioware were mostly just catering to their audience. For Mass Effect, the vast majority of players were straight men, so the romance focus was there. Dragon Age had a more even male/female distribution of players, which I believe has continued to grow. Over time Bioware has learned that the straight male demographic has both declined as a percentage of players, and is also likely the demographic least interested in having romance options in the game. So it has made good marketing sense to expand romance options for where they are most desired. That's just my hunch.
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Post by SirSourpuss on May 5, 2020 13:30:00 GMT
also on the dieting thing, some sources claim she might be having some form of anorexia Hollywood stars are overly pressured to maintain this slim physique, that doesn't always look well, especially women. I'd post a picture of 2020 Jennifer Connelly, but honestly, it'd just break my heart.
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Post by SirSourpuss on May 5, 2020 13:31:36 GMT
Of the three females, surely one will be to your liking. Eh... I'm a straight woman who had four options in DAI. I didn't like any of them and eventually went with the gay dude. It's slightly more nuanced than that, but that's the gist. No one is guaranteed to like any of the LI options, nor are they entitled to get one that pushes all their buttons (orientation aside; I'm all for equality there). I don't romance anyone in DAO and am just fine with that.
It's also not solely about the follower's looks, but also the flavor of their romance. If I were inclined to romance woman, Cassandra would be a top choice because I like her a whole bunch and think she's hot, but her traditional romance arc doesn't do anything for me. I just don't find it compelling in how I want characters to come together in a relationship.
Oh, hi me.
Well, except the gay dude part. Didn't like Dorian. Unless we're talking about Zevran.
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Post by turianlannister on May 7, 2020 16:47:23 GMT
Two things: First, you're completely wrong. Second, "Kamala Khan effect?
Hm...
I agree with Sirpetrakus that the female LI were made bland looking for some reason. Take a look at Cassy from DA2 vs DA:I
However, this proves the old adage that beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
IMO, Cassandra was blander in DA2, she had a generic 'created using the character creator' face, in DAI her face was much more unique looking I'm guessing you weren't happy with m/m options in DA:I?I don't like any of them, no. As characters they're fine, but I don't care for them as love interests. Josephine is utterly oblivious to the Inquisitor hitting on her for a good while. Cassandra pretends not to notice and, when she finally acknowledges it, seems more uncomfortable than anything. Having to badger someone to an extent I'd find inappropriate in RL to get such a lukewarm response is not what I'd call compelling. I suspect that, regardless of their looks, Cassandra and Josephine's controversial reception is largely because of how desexualized they are. I'm not talking about chainmail bikinis and graphic sex scenes, but about how they show little to no interest in that arena, for the Inquisitor specifically or in general. I dislike the "cutesy ingenue" archetype, like I said, but I can see how ME1 Liara, the virginal, socially awkward alien babe who wants to jump the PC's bones, appeals to other guys. Cassandra is no fun at all—I realize it's supposed to be endearing, but a grown ass woman being that embarrassed of her hobbies is not a good look either—and Josephine is, well, a Disney princess. Much as I like The Little Mermaid, straight men are not the target audience for Disney princesses. And Ariel was never this bland. Solas is blatant catering. A powerful, morally compromised ancient being who is madly in love with the mortal protagonist? That's paranormal romance 101. Blackwall is more of an edge case, hence why I set him apart, but just because he missed the mark doesn't mean he wasn't supposed to be a hit. A knight in shining armor with a dark secret? I could see it. He's a bit like an older Alistair, particularly with the whole "knight and his lady" dynamic. Honestly, I think he's unpopular partially because he gets outshined by PR101 Solas and Generic Pretty Boy Cullen and because the middle aged lumberjack look is not in. Shave him and his sex appeal goes up a notch. Ironically, I think he's my favorite romance in DA:I. He and the female Inquisitor have a flirty chemistry that's entirely absent from the Cassandra and Josephine romances. I kinda regret not going for Dorian in my one complete DA:I playthrough; at least he's fun to be around. But Cassandra was kinda hot, even if she was a killjoy and judgmental religious fanatic Plenty of “grown ass women” have guilty pleasures... and plenty of straight men are attracted to disney princesses... where are you even coming from with this “analysis”? Honestly, it seems you couch some extreme biases with bloated phrases and academic buzz words to attempt to hide those biases. I saw a straight male complaining on a forum that Moana didn't have a love interest *disgusted noise* oh for the love of... how is it these threads ALWAYS end up into shouting matching of one kind or another? ![:ytho:](//storage.proboards.com/6576594/images/xiICCwovdgMxwQNmAZOU.png) "I'm right!" "No I'm right!" "Nuh-uh, I'm right!" "Ah...but I like..." "NO ONE ASKED YOU!!"
Then again...given what the start of this thread was, I suppose that's to be expected my mood right now summed up in one gif ![:why:](//storage.proboards.com/6576594/images/MVXW0DmcTsJZlBSSOwAc.png)
Can we just agree everyone has a different taste and leave it at that? Great...
What's that dragon from? Going back to the actual topic... wolf like dog, Mabari, Hound style dog, or customizable dog companion/evocation/plus tram member? I love both Mabari and wolf-like dog, personally...butI slwats had German Sheperd dogs, so... Why not a goat companion? Or a druffalo? Or one of those cute fennec foxes I'd kill for a rideable griffin companion. If we got a druffalo I'd want it to be rideable Oh please, why don't you see from our side. Do you remember BSN prime when a guy used anthropology to convince that Cassandra was a guy. I remember people calling Cassandra a "trans" multiple times in not just that forum but others as well. You say respect but how can one show respect if they're spewing out nonsense? How come they don't have to have that same courtesy? I mean Cassandra isn't the conventional female but come on, do developers self censor themselves and not have any other looks represented other than the "average male" which by the way is a vague term? Anyone else want Bio to put a trans LI in just to watch people's heads explode? A lot of people wanted to romance Krem He wears a wolf's jawbone as a collar and has a massive painting of a wolf in his quarters in Skyhold. It wasn't terribly subtle, in retrospect True. Although he could've just been a super-fan. The Conrad Verner of Dragon Age
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LadyofNemesis
N5
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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LadyofNemesis
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ladyofnemesis
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by LadyofNemesis on May 7, 2020 16:55:48 GMT
*disgusted noise* oh for the love of... how is it these threads ALWAYS end up into shouting matching of one kind or another? ![:ytho:](//storage.proboards.com/6576594/images/xiICCwovdgMxwQNmAZOU.png) "I'm right!" "No I'm right!" "Nuh-uh, I'm right!" "Ah...but I like..." "NO ONE ASKED YOU!!"
Then again...given what the start of this thread was, I suppose that's to be expected my mood right now summed up in one gif ![:why:](//storage.proboards.com/6576594/images/MVXW0DmcTsJZlBSSOwAc.png)
Can we just agree everyone has a different taste and leave it at that? Great...
What's that dragon from? Ah, it's from a trailer from Elder Scrolls Online lemme just... it's from their Elsweyr trailer
oh and, technically it's not a dragon, since it has no front legs it'd be considered a wyvern...most movie and tv "dragons" are technically considered wyverns...but then again, there's at least five or six mythologies that have dragons to illustrate > link coincidentally the picture they use for dragon is an DA high dragon concept art
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