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KaiserShep
Party like it's 2023!
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August 2016
kaisershep
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by KaiserShep on Jul 8, 2020 9:12:05 GMT
During my first watch of the Mel scene where Ellie went over and opened up her jacket to reveal the belly, I couldn't help but go back to another see I saw years prior. I know I am supposed to find this scene a revelation, something disgusting that Ellie has done in the pursuit of her revenge and all that, you know making the unborn pay for the sins of the living and all that other kindergarten level reasoning the game throws in pursuit of its message but...I didn't it reminded me of that skit from a animated cartoon I watched a decade prior because I could at no level actually take the scene seriously. We are to believe that Ellie has come this far, twisted herself up this much in pursuit of revenge only to have her reel back from it? After all the people she's killed that go on screaming and begging, all those poor poor doggies that tried to rip her throat out, etc, etc. I am supposed to seriously expect her to have a normalized reaction to something horrid and monstrous? I guess Ellie only has a soul when its convenient for the game narrative. ._. But I didn't instead my mind drifted back to a comedy scene because I couldn't take it seriously at all. There should have been a devil and angel Ellie on her shoulders. Angel: Damn, she was pregnant? Well aren’t we kind of an asshole. Devil: Pfft, bitch had a knife. I say we did good. Angel: Eh...yeah I don’t really have a rebuttal for that.
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SofaJockey
Not a jockey. Has a sofa.
13,127
August 2016
sofajockey
SofaJockey
SofaJockey
6000
7164
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Post by SofaJockey on Jul 8, 2020 11:12:00 GMT
I know I am supposed to find this scene a revelation, something disgusting that Ellie has done in the pursuit of her revenge I didn't feel any disgust at the killing of Mel. Ellie has not indicated that Owen and Mel would be killed. Mel was trying to shove a knife into Ellie's neck and Ellie rebuffed that and killed Mel in self-defence. Aside from the more general concern that seeking revenge would inevitably lead to deaths, there's no foul in this specific case. The emotion that I felt (which i think Ellie was projected to feel) was despair and tragedy in the unintended killing of a child, which to my mind isn't quite the same as a revelation of personal disgust at one's actions. You say you 'watched' the scene, so I assume you didn't play it. If playing, I struggle to see how that sequence would prompt a comedy scene.
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Sanunes
N6
Just a flip of the coin.
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Prime Posts: 4392
Prime Likes: 882
Posts: 5,900 Likes: 8,927
inherit
1561
0
8,927
Sanunes
Just a flip of the coin.
5,900
Sept 13, 2016 11:51:12 GMT
September 2016
sanunes
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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882
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Post by Sanunes on Jul 8, 2020 12:44:32 GMT
I know I am supposed to find this scene a revelation, something disgusting that Ellie has done in the pursuit of her revenge I didn't feel any disgust at the killing of Mel. Ellie has not indicated that Owen and Mel would be killed. Mel was trying to shove a knife into Ellie's neck and Ellie rebuffed that and killed Mel in self-defence. Aside from the more general concern that seeking revenge would inevitably lead to deaths, there's no foul in this specific case. The emotion that I felt (which i think Ellie was projected to feel) was despair and tragedy in the unintended killing of a child, which to my mind isn't quite the same as a revelation of personal disgust at one's actions. You say you 'watched' the scene, so I assume you didn't play it. If playing, I struggle to see how that sequence would prompt a comedy scene. Even though I wouldn't compare it to The Simpsons, that is how I felt during the scene myself. Especially after seeing the opposite with Abby when she was threatening to slash the throat of a person that is pregnant. That is what I think took me out of the game so much was that in like the first three Mass Effect games the game would ping pong between extremes and completely avoided trying to find the nuance and trying to tackle what they wanted to say. I will always think of this game to going to the absurd to try and prove a point and making itself into a parody instead of something trying to be thoughtful. I am pretty sure I have mentioned this before, but I think the recruitment and loyalty missions for Garrus in Mass Effect 2 are vastly better then The Last of Us Part 2. It shows the damage the violence can cause and while also allowing the player to feel their actions are part of the discussion to get them to feel how their choices can impact that situation. The on rails approach The Last of Us Part 2 could work, but for me it requires more then what the game offered.
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Apr 26, 2024 19:09:49 GMT
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7,023
August 2016
elementzero
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by Element Zero on Jul 8, 2020 16:40:23 GMT
Played a bit more of my NG++ earlier. I saved just as Ellie exits the sewers and enters the park. She'll meet the Seraphites on her way to the hospital. I've been observing a conversation about the game on another site (one I choose not to join due to poor, overbearing moderation). It's mostly been 2 guys who really like the game and one guy who thought the over the top violence ruined any chance of him liking it. (He says he'd rate it a 7.5 out of 10 for its technical polish.) A fourth guy admitted he could never like it because of hating Abby and actively resisting the game's efforts to humanize her. Many points from all angles were similar to some I've read or expressed here. A couple of weeks ago I said I'd not be surprised if we had some, "Were We Too Hard on TLoU2" articles next year. I don't really expect we will, though. This game seems to be love it or leave it. In the conversation I mention above, the "I dislike violence" guy has now changed his story to "I just hate Abby for killing Joel". Sigh. They took a risk in having her kill Joel so early and brutally in the game. I can understand that some refuse to see any other facets of her character. Maybe if they'd witnessed "Joel the Hunter" in the first game they'd not have bonded with him either? I haven't felt safe getting my usual pain treatments for occipital neuralgia and migraines, so my headaches are insane. (For those outside the USA, coronavirus mitigation has been an abject disaster here.) No gaming today. It may be a few days before I can even consider it.
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Kappa Neko
...lives for biotic explosions. And cheesecake!
3,372
Oct 18, 2016 21:17:18 GMT
October 2016
kappaneko
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Kappa Neko on Jul 8, 2020 17:06:10 GMT
I watched the two Angry Joe videos and even Alex couldn't rate it higher than 6 even though he liked the IDEA of it. And Alex is the smartest more intellectual of the three who understands how storytelling is supposed to work. From the snippets I've seen of this game I would tend to agree that the execution was WAY too forced and contrived. It worked for some people obviously and that's fine. I probably wouldn't have any problems empathizing with Abby myself if I played it. After all the game tries SO HARD to make you care. But that's the problem. It's so transparent that I would probably be bored even though the emotional manipulation would have worked despite myself. The stuff with the dogs is so cheap it made me laugh. Is there any trick less subtle? LOL.
It's like how I cried at the end of Dexter even though I HATED the ending and how cheaply manipulative it was. Biggest out of character clusterfuck in TV history, but sure, it hurt and made me cry. Mission accomplished, congratulations!
A good friend of mine is a very gifted writer and he once told me that making characters fit the plot is hack writing. You DON'T do that. You look at your characters and write the story to fit THEM. You think about what your characters would do in this situation and then the story kind of emerges from there. Your characters write your story for you. How would this character arrive at the plot point I have mapped out? If you're a skilled writer the answer will come to you. My friend gets stuck for months sometimes trying to figure out how to get from A to B in a way that fits his characters! That's the difference between believable writing and jarring bullshit drama for the sake of drama. The Walking Dead is not a good show because it's guilty of making characters stupid to fit the plot too all the time. Convenient writing is lazy/bad writing. If you can't think of anything to advance the plot other than having your characters be stupid as fuck, you failed. I'm sorry, you're not that good at your job.
I DO enjoy cheap emotionally manipulative stories from time to time. There are certain things that just tuck at my heart strings no matter how badly written it is. I can get into specific cheesy copy paste love story themes over and over. They just work on me every time. Makes me laugh about myself. But hey, not everything has to be high art to be enjoyable. It's fine.
What annoys the crap out of me though is when the writers think they've just created something super deep when it's not. I can literally see Druckmann get off on the idea of tricking people into liking Abby and writing down every dirty emotional trick to achieve it like that's indicative of brilliant writing. It's the opposite imo. Get me to care for a character without resorting to using fluffy dog scenarios and we'll talk again.
A good narrative is not about the plot, it's about the execution. It's not about throwing the most shocking shit at you to goad a response. FEEL SOMETHING, DAMNIT. It's about making you genuinely care for characters because they're believable and complex. What makes somebody like a character can be many different things. For one person it's moment A, for others moment B. Others might dislike a character for the exact same things. A narrative is good imo when it gives the audience room to breathe and digest and decide for themselves just how horrified or moved they are by the stuff that just went down. Sometimes it's a super mundane scene that does me in rather than the shocking stuff. The more ambivalent a character's actions, the better. Because then it's up to me what to think.
While a narrative always has an objective and some things are clearly supposed to be good or bad, there's a big difference between show and tell. You can be subtle about it or preachy AF. TLOU2 comes across as a very pretentious effort at manipulation that is so transparent that it's almost insulting. The game's problem isn't that the narrative doesn't make sense, it's VERY clear what they were getting at, and in a brute force manner it works. It's that they could have told the story better without relying so much on cheap tricks to drive it all home. It only made some people dig in theif heels and hate Abby more because they hated how manipulative the narrative is being about her.
Like Alex on Angry Joe I too think there is nothing wrong with the idea of the game. But the execution is too forced and hollow and contrived, it seems. I've heard half a dozen different approaches to making people truly conflicted about Abby that all sound better than what Druckmann went for.
Then again, I haven't played the game. I'm sure there are genuinely good scenes in this game. Most of what I have seen though seemed like it's right out of TWD and that's NOT a good thing in my book.
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Son of Dorn
Fortifying everything.
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Jan 11, 2017 14:17:27 GMT
January 2017
doomlolz
Dragon Age Inquisition
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Post by Son of Dorn on Jul 8, 2020 17:09:54 GMT
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Sanunes
N6
Just a flip of the coin.
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Prime Posts: 4392
Prime Likes: 882
Posts: 5,900 Likes: 8,927
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1561
0
8,927
Sanunes
Just a flip of the coin.
5,900
Sept 13, 2016 11:51:12 GMT
September 2016
sanunes
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
4392
882
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Post by Sanunes on Jul 8, 2020 17:10:40 GMT
Played a bit more of my NG++ earlier. I saved just as Ellie exits the sewers and enters the park. She'll meet the Seraphites on her way to the hospital. I've been observing a conversation about the game on another site (one I choose not to join due to poor, overbearing moderation). It's mostly been 2 guys who really like the game and one guy who thought the over the top violence ruined any chance of him liking it. (He says he'd rate it a 7.5 out of 10 for its technical polish.) A fourth guy admitted he could never like it because of hating Abby and actively resisting the game's efforts to humanize her. Many points from all angles were similar to some I've read or expressed here. A couple of weeks ago I said I'd not be surprised if we had some, "Were We Too Hard on TLoU2" articles next year. I don't really expect we will, though. This game seems to be love it or leave it. In the conversation I mention above, the "I dislike violence" guy has now changed his story to "I just hate Abby for killing Joel". Sigh. They took a risk in having her kill Joel so early and brutally in the game. I can understand that some refuse to see any other facets of her character. Maybe if they'd witnessed "Joel the Hunter" in the first game they'd not have bonded with him either? I haven't felt safe getting my usual pain treatments for occipital neuralgia and migraines, so my headaches are insane. (For those outside the USA, coronavirus mitigation has been an abject disaster here.) No gaming today. It may be a few days before I can even consider it. Maybe, but also I think its also how she kills Joel and then the game wants us to sympathize with her. Even maybe just making it that she shoots him once in the head instead of prolonging the killing it might have been different. Just starting with showing us how cruel of a killer she can be and then going "oh see how human she is for saving a zebra" makes it hard. If the approach was different where you play as Abby for 10 hours showing what kind of person she is and then have her snap and kill Joel it could have been different as well. I just think out of all the approaches Naughty Dog picked one of the worst ones I can think of for me as a player at least.
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Apr 25, 2024 16:35:30 GMT
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Not a jockey. Has a sofa.
13,127
August 2016
sofajockey
SofaJockey
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Post by SofaJockey on Jul 8, 2020 17:14:42 GMT
Well the game has certainly got everyone talking, with fans and critics on both sides. That's got to be some kind of achievement.
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Darth Dennis
111
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Jul 27, 2022 16:20:32 GMT
9,146
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8,113
August 2016
mastermasterwarderz
19,824
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Post by masterwarderz on Jul 8, 2020 18:05:24 GMT
During my first watch of the Mel scene where Ellie went over and opened up her jacket to reveal the belly, I couldn't help but go back to another see I saw years prior. I know I am supposed to find this scene a revelation, something disgusting that Ellie has done in the pursuit of her revenge and all that, you know making the unborn pay for the sins of the living and all that other kindergarten level reasoning the game throws in pursuit of its message but...I didn't it reminded me of that skit from a animated cartoon I watched a decade prior because I could at no level actually take the scene seriously. We are to believe that Ellie has come this far, twisted herself up this much in pursuit of revenge only to have her reel back from it? After all the people she's killed that go on screaming and begging, all those poor poor doggies that tried to rip her throat out, etc, etc. I am supposed to seriously expect her to have a normalized reaction to something horrid and monstrous? I guess Ellie only has a soul when its convenient for the game narrative. ._. But I didn't instead my mind drifted back to a comedy scene because I couldn't take it seriously at all. There should have been a devil and angel Ellie on her shoulders. Angel: Damn, she was pregnant? Well aren’t we kind of an asshole. Devil: Pfft, bitch had a knife. I say we did good. Angel: Eh...yeah I don’t really have a rebuttal for that. It couldn't be anymore jarring then the utter disconnect between narrative and gameplay already so...
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ღ Aerial Flybys
61
0
1
26,187
Obsidian Gryphon
10,129
August 2016
obsidiangryphon
ObsidianGryphon
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire
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Post by Obsidian Gryphon on Jul 10, 2020 0:34:38 GMT
Metacritic has gone the way of Rotten Tomatoes. Sorry people, if you have negative reviews, not accepted. Positive reviews only. Not that I look at metacritic or depend on "scores" on websites. I look at game play on Twitch / YT to decide whether the game is worth buying and playing. It's the only way to know.
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Sanunes
N6
Just a flip of the coin.
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Prime Posts: 4392
Prime Likes: 882
Posts: 5,900 Likes: 8,927
inherit
1561
0
8,927
Sanunes
Just a flip of the coin.
5,900
Sept 13, 2016 11:51:12 GMT
September 2016
sanunes
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
4392
882
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Post by Sanunes on Jul 10, 2020 2:37:02 GMT
Metacritic has gone the way of Rotten Tomatoes. Sorry people, if you have negative reviews, not accepted. Positive reviews only. Not that I look at metacritic or depend on "scores" on websites. I look at game play on Twitch / YT to decide whether the game is worth buying and playing. It's the only way to know. I wish there was more evidence of what is going on with Metacritic, for all I have been able to find is YouTube videos and Reddit posts claiming what it going on and even then there are different speculations of what is happening.
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538
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Apr 26, 2024 16:18:49 GMT
21,880
smilesja
13,721
August 2016
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Post by smilesja on Jul 10, 2020 2:56:59 GMT
Metacritic has gone the way of Rotten Tomatoes. Sorry people, if you have negative reviews, not accepted. Positive reviews only. Not that I look at metacritic or depend on "scores" on websites. I look at game play on Twitch / YT to decide whether the game is worth buying and playing. It's the only way to know. I wish there was more evidence of what is going on with Metacritic, for all I have been able to find is YouTube videos and Reddit posts claiming what it going on and even then there are different speculations of what is happening. To be honest the user scores of Metacritic are some of the most useless information to look for reviews. It's just people review bombing a game they don't like.
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Jul 27, 2022 16:20:32 GMT
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masterwarderz
8,113
August 2016
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19,824
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Post by masterwarderz on Jul 10, 2020 3:02:31 GMT
I wish there was more evidence of what is going on with Metacritic, for all I have been able to find is YouTube videos and Reddit posts claiming what it going on and even then there are different speculations of what is happening. To be honest the user scores of Metacritic are some of the most useless information to look for reviews. It's just people review bombing a game they don't like. Conversely you can't trust critics whose bottom line is effected by the reviews they give.
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Sanunes
N6
Just a flip of the coin.
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Prime Posts: 4392
Prime Likes: 882
Posts: 5,900 Likes: 8,927
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1561
0
8,927
Sanunes
Just a flip of the coin.
5,900
Sept 13, 2016 11:51:12 GMT
September 2016
sanunes
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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882
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Post by Sanunes on Jul 10, 2020 3:34:46 GMT
I wish there was more evidence of what is going on with Metacritic, for all I have been able to find is YouTube videos and Reddit posts claiming what it going on and even then there are different speculations of what is happening. To be honest the user scores of Metacritic are some of the most useless information to look for reviews. It's just people review bombing a game they don't like. While true, when the next BioWare game comes along I like having evidence when I point out they manipulate the scores. Since so many people on the BSN were pointing out how inaccurate the scores for Mass Effect 3 were because the "real" scores from players were so much lower.
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The Smiling Knight
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Apr 26, 2024 16:18:49 GMT
21,880
smilesja
13,721
August 2016
smilesja
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Post by smilesja on Jul 10, 2020 5:20:37 GMT
To be honest the user scores of Metacritic are some of the most useless information to look for reviews. It's just people review bombing a game they don't like. While true, when the next BioWare game comes along I like having evidence when I point out they manipulate the scores. Since so many people on the BSN were pointing out how inaccurate the scores for Mass Effect 3 were because the "real" scores from players were so much lower. By which context I wonder? Is it a well thought out review? Or just spamming things like ending sucks? I’m guessing it’s the latter.
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4,327
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MiNd...ExPaNsIoN....
1,827
August 2016
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Blackgas7
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Post by clips7 on Jul 10, 2020 5:51:56 GMT
I still haven't played the game yet....i've seen a ton of vids and i finally saw the bait and switch in terms of the trailer.....a bit low what naughty dog did there....folks was constantly asking was Joel in the game early on....and while he is, they completely re-did that scene with Jesse. I still plan on getting this, but it's going to be a tough pill to swallow for me to feel anything for Abby....not sure what Druckman was thinking with this.
A bold move to do what he did, but it wasn't necessary and the way it went down was just a complete disconnect in terms of Joel's character and him and Tommy trusting Abby and her crew in the manner that they did when Joel didn't trust anybody in the first game......just structure characters to be completely out of character to tell a narrative.....the game should have built upon Ellie's and Joel's relationship....
The empathy theme doesn't work at all because we don't know Abby and have not had time to get to know her and seeing what she did to Joel, then holding a knife to Dina's neck knowing she was pregnant then we are somehow after all that we're supposed to feel some type of way about her?
Not sure who gave the green light on Abby's character design either...like who is really going to be that jacked during the apocalypse?...then we play her to beat down Ellie?...really?.....those flashbacks with Joel and Ellie was pretty good tho so Druckman isn't a total hack and the facial expressions of all the characters was truly impressive.....but this is what happens when you let the lead writer go crazy with the script....somebody was needed to tell this guy to pull back some and rethink some of the plot.
Koijima desperately needs somebody to let him know when the story is getting away from him, because he is another one that can be full of himself at times.....it's seems like in a series the 2nd game of any series is the best....RE2, Mass Effect2, Silent Hill 2, Dead Space 2, etc.....unfortunately i think the first game will still be this franchises shining star....
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Post by clips7 on Jul 10, 2020 6:14:19 GMT
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Kabraxal
N4
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
Posts: 1,004 Likes: 2,731
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3790
0
Apr 25, 2024 17:10:01 GMT
2,731
Kabraxal
1,004
Feb 23, 2017 18:40:36 GMT
February 2017
kabraxal
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Kabraxal on Jul 10, 2020 6:51:03 GMT
I still haven't played the game yet....i've seen a ton of vids and i finally saw the bait and switch in terms of the trailer.....a bit low what naughty dog did there....folks was constantly asking was Joel in the game early on....and while he is, they completely re-did that scene with Jesse. I still plan on getting this, but it's going to be a tough pill to swallow for me to feel anything for Abby....not sure what Druckman was thinking with this. A bold move to do what he did, but it wasn't necessary and the way it went down was just a complete disconnect in terms of Joel's character and him and Tommy trusting Abby and her crew in the manner that they did when Joel didn't trust anybody in the first game......just structure characters to be completely out of character to tell a narrative.....the game should have built upon Ellie's and Joel's relationship.... The empathy theme doesn't work at all because we don't know Abby and have not had time to get to know her and seeing what she did to Joel, then holding a knife to Dina's neck knowing she was pregnant then we are somehow after all that we're supposed to feel some type of way about her? Not sure who gave the green light on Abby's character design either...like who is really going to be that jacked during the apocalypse?...then we play her to beat down Ellie?...really?.....those flashbacks with Joel and Ellie was pretty good tho so Druckman isn't a total hack and the facial expressions of all the characters was truly impressive.....but this is what happens when you let the lead writer go crazy with the script....somebody was needed to tell this guy to pull back some and rethink some of the plot. Koijima desperately needs somebody to let him know when the story is getting away from him, because he is another one that can be full of himself at times.....it's seems like in a series the 2nd game of any series is the best....RE2, Mass Effect2, Silent Hill 2, Dead Space 2, etc.....unfortunately i think the first game will still be this franchises shining star.... TLOU2 is basically what Druckman envisioned 1 in many respects. Bruce Staley reigned him in. Druckman wanted to kill Elena Fisher at one point. Bruce Staley reigned him in. I’m sensing a pattern...
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Glorious Star Lord
822
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Jan 24, 2024 17:47:40 GMT
16,819
KaiserShep
Party like it's 2023!
9,233
August 2016
kaisershep
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by KaiserShep on Jul 10, 2020 9:47:05 GMT
I still haven't played the game yet....i've seen a ton of vids and i finally saw the bait and switch in terms of the trailer.....a bit low what naughty dog did there....folks was constantly asking was Joel in the game early on....and while he is, they completely re-did that scene with Jesse. I still plan on getting this, but it's going to be a tough pill to swallow for me to feel anything for Abby....not sure what Druckman was thinking with this. A bold move to do what he did, but it wasn't necessary and the way it went down was just a complete disconnect in terms of Joel's character and him and Tommy trusting Abby and her crew in the manner that they did when Joel didn't trust anybody in the first game......just structure characters to be completely out of character to tell a narrative.....the game should have built upon Ellie's and Joel's relationship.... The empathy theme doesn't work at all because we don't know Abby and have not had time to get to know her and seeing what she did to Joel, then holding a knife to Dina's neck knowing she was pregnant then we are somehow after all that we're supposed to feel some type of way about her? Not sure who gave the green light on Abby's character design either...like who is really going to be that jacked during the apocalypse?...then we play her to beat down Ellie?...really?.....those flashbacks with Joel and Ellie was pretty good tho so Druckman isn't a total hack and the facial expressions of all the characters was truly impressive.....but this is what happens when you let the lead writer go crazy with the script....somebody was needed to tell this guy to pull back some and rethink some of the plot. Koijima desperately needs somebody to let him know when the story is getting away from him, because he is another one that can be full of himself at times.....it's seems like in a series the 2nd game of any series is the best....RE2, Mass Effect2, Silent Hill 2, Dead Space 2, etc.....unfortunately i think the first game will still be this franchises shining star.... And the crazy thing is that more people would probably be perfectly OK with Joel’s death, because it seemed like a natural comeuppance from his action from the previous game. Sure, some people would still be all bent out of shape over it, but having it be the product of an amateurish contrivance can rob a scene of its dramatic heft. As for Abby’s design, I don’t care what anyone says, I think it’s stupid that they made her so jacked. More than that, I’m more than convinced that they purposefully made her this bulky to get a heavily polarized reaction out of everyone. I don’t buy for a second that they didn’t intend to have her......robust physique...add to the players’ response to the events of the game, because physically, it makes this seemingly villainous character look even more imposing, thus giving the player more to hate. They probably had this brilliant idea that they would ride between the extremes of like and dislike, and the rewind in time would serve to temper the negative feelings toward the character over time. It’s just too bad that first impressions are the most important. If someone killed my cat, I wouldn’t care if I learned that they were typically a pretty ok person that fed orphans or something. I’d still break something important.
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Post by ClarkKent on Jul 10, 2020 20:06:48 GMT
Anyone else in that post Last of Us 2 stage where every game looks and feels like shit in comparison? It's a similar feeling to when I finished Red Dead 2, and the Mass Effect OG trilogy. I just tried playing AC Odyssey and yuck.
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Post by Son of Dorn on Jul 10, 2020 20:32:54 GMT
Anyone else in that post Last of Us 2 stage where every game looks and feels like shit in comparison? It's a similar feeling to when I finished Red Dead 2, and the Mass Effect OG trilogy. I just tried playing AC Odyssey and yuck. I felt like that after playing HZD and watched a video on YouTube about Mass Effect afterwards. I just hope that HZD2 and/or Cyberpunk does it one step better.
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Post by ClarkKent on Jul 10, 2020 20:49:36 GMT
As a wise man once said:
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Post by Son of Dorn on Jul 10, 2020 21:02:11 GMT
As a wise man once said: Unless it's Spiderman on PlayStation. 😋
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Just a flip of the coin.
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by Sanunes on Jul 11, 2020 1:16:19 GMT
Anyone else in that post Last of Us 2 stage where every game looks and feels like shit in comparison? It's a similar feeling to when I finished Red Dead 2, and the Mass Effect OG trilogy. I just tried playing AC Odyssey and yuck. No, but then again the story failed pretty hard for me so I just finished Mass Effect 3 again and enjoyed that more.
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Post by Element Zero on Jul 11, 2020 3:25:19 GMT
I still haven't played the game yet....i've seen a ton of vids and i finally saw the bait and switch in terms of the trailer.....a bit low what naughty dog did there....folks was constantly asking was Joel in the game early on....and while he is, they completely re-did that scene with Jesse. I still plan on getting this, but it's going to be a tough pill to swallow for me to feel anything for Abby....not sure what Druckman was thinking with this. A bold move to do what he did, but it wasn't necessary and the way it went down was just a complete disconnect in terms of Joel's character and him and Tommy trusting Abby and her crew in the manner that they did when Joel didn't trust anybody in the first game......just structure characters to be completely out of character to tell a narrative.....the game should have built upon Ellie's and Joel's relationship.... The empathy theme doesn't work at all because we don't know Abby and have not had time to get to know her and seeing what she did to Joel, then holding a knife to Dina's neck knowing she was pregnant then we are somehow after all that we're supposed to feel some type of way about her? Not sure who gave the green light on Abby's character design either...like who is really going to be that jacked during the apocalypse?...then we play her to beat down Ellie?...really?.....those flashbacks with Joel and Ellie was pretty good tho so Druckman isn't a total hack and the facial expressions of all the characters was truly impressive.....but this is what happens when you let the lead writer go crazy with the script....somebody was needed to tell this guy to pull back some and rethink some of the plot. Koijima desperately needs somebody to let him know when the story is getting away from him, because he is another one that can be full of himself at times.....it's seems like in a series the 2nd game of any series is the best....RE2, Mass Effect2, Silent Hill 2, Dead Space 2, etc.....unfortunately i think the first game will still be this franchises shining star.... To put a few things into context, Tommy and Joel had no other viable option. They didn't strike me as overly trusting. They just did what they had to do, and Tommy was charming and amicable, as he always seems to be. Abby holding a knife to Dina is waaaaay later in the story, isn't unprovoked, and there's very strong correlation to other events that just transpired. It in no way interferes with building empathy for Abby. If you don't like her or empathize with her by that point, you never were going to feel it. If you do, then you completely get her emotions in that scene and you're probably yelling at her (in your mind or aloud), "Don't do it. Put it down." People keep saying this story was poorly written for this or that reason, but I just don't see it. I think it's very well written. This shit was believable. People do act the way these characters act. I can understand disliking the game. No work will land with every viewer in an audience of millions. The critiques from the peanut gallery, though, just ring hollow to me. I'm no professional writer, and neither are most of the "poor writing" crowd; so I guess we're on equal footing. The only writers I've seen comment in detail have been journalists from the major newspapers; and they're journalists, not novelists or storytellers. Opinions are just opinions ultimately, no matter how adamant or belligerent the deliverer. There also seems to be an almost resentful sentiment that ND was trying to teach a profound lesson. Can't they just be telling a story? Who tries to extract life lessons from VGs? They told a story. Some appreciated it as told, for others it missed the mark. The complaints about ND's "poor writing" or "preaching" or "failure to teach the lesson" feel way more pretentious than any story I've ever experienced, whether via book, movie or VG. I picture dudes with little stick-on mustaches standing around sipping shitty wine and complaining about Druckmann and TLoU2. None of this is to say that I'd have written the same story in his position, nor that I'd have said, "Yes sir, Mr Druckmann. This sounds like a good idea." I just dont worry too much about that. I enjoyed the game as is. Had I hated it, maybe I'd be more interested in dissecting it and rewriting it. Again, I do look forward to reading your opinion down the road. The opinions vary wildly on this one. I'm curious how it will work for you.
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