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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jun 29, 2020 17:55:20 GMT
Yeah, and even in real life. If I had to shoot a dog that tried to kill me, I wouldn’t feel bad about it, even if I knew it was someone else’s pet. Feeling bad or not would appear to be a secondary concern to despatching the dog that is going for your throat... The same applies to dealing with Nora, Mel and Owen. All of whom are trying to kill you. Irrespective of whether you later conclude how regrettable that was. After you break into their house and kill tons of their friends/family in her quest to kill more. How dare they.
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Post by SofaJockey on Jun 29, 2020 18:28:19 GMT
After you break into their house and kill tons of their friends/family in her quest to kill more. How dare they. No. You can sneak into the hospital only killing one person (who gives you no choice) and I did so on the last play-through. You confront Nora alone without threatening her life but she bolts and tries to knife you. Nor do you kill anyone when reaching the Aquarium. The dog, Owen and Mel all go for you, unwilling to entertain the notion that they would be spared, leaving you no choice but to fight back. Both the Wolves and Seraphites have standing orders to kill on sight any 'intruders' into their territory, so it's true that a peaceful conversation is hard to have. I realise you are cheerfully making stuff up as you haven't actually played the game, but that does make a fact-based discussion rather hard to have.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jun 29, 2020 18:42:30 GMT
After you break into their house and kill tons of their friends/family in her quest to kill more. How dare they. No. You can sneak into the hospital only killing one person (who gives you no choice) So yes then. But fine, after you break into their house and kill one of their friends/family. Better? As for the later example, after you’ve broken into multiple of their houses and killed their friends/family. So thank you for proving my point and showing I’m not “cheerfully making stuff up” as you put it.
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Post by Sanunes on Jun 29, 2020 21:02:10 GMT
Its because the killing of hundreds of people in The Last of Us Part 2 is conflicting with what the story writers are trying to tell us versus just having to mow down other people to meet my objective. Reminds me of Jim Sterling's review. He mentioned that he felt nothing over killing that dog you are supposed to feel bad about killing, because the game has at that point conditioned the player the see dogs as a very real threat to there life. He really summed up my feelings on the game far better then I could. The only difference I think is that the story of the game made my view more negative.
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Post by Element Zero on Jun 29, 2020 21:52:36 GMT
No. You can sneak into the hospital only killing one person (who gives you no choice) So yes then. But fine, after you break into their house and kill one of their friends/family. Better? As for the later example, after you’ve broken into multiple of their houses and killed their friends/family. So thank you for proving my point and showing I’m not “cheerfully making stuff up” as you put it. Actually, none of them know about the others' deaths when meeting Ellie. She always asks for Abby, and they each resist the offer for their own reasons. I don't fault any of them for it. Abby is the only one who realizes that she is being stalked and why, but only very far along after coming face to face with Tommy. Even though he'd just splattered Manny's dome on her face, and then tried to kill her, she didn't pursue him. She instead went to rescue Lev. When Abby finds her friends dead, she assumes it was Tommy. She didn't realize there were others along until Ellie and Jesse burst through the door. She never learns anything about Nora, Nick, Jordan, etc... She can maybe guess; but by that point she's never returning to Seattle to confirm their fates, as far as we know. You can gather broadstrokes from the internet, but there's a ton of things you just can't know about the story and characters without playing the game. I just finished my Survivor+. I found the note that I'd missed at The Resort to complete my Platinum trophy moments before the end. Phenomenal game. I like it even more after completing it the second time, as is usual. I gain a deeper appreciation of the small things and polish on subsequent runs. I was sure to let Anthony get revenge on the Rattlers this time. Anthony wasn't cooperative enough with the slavers, so they'd staked him on a chain like a dog and infected him. I let him loose and that single runner killed half a dozen slavers before they stopped him. Assholes. Ellie mopped up the surviving trash. I made sure to kill the other infected prisoners, too, as I did the first time. What an end to a life. Ugh.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jun 29, 2020 23:03:57 GMT
So yes then. But fine, after you break into their house and kill one of their friends/family. Better? As for the later example, after you’ve broken into multiple of their houses and killed their friends/family. So thank you for proving my point and showing I’m not “cheerfully making stuff up” as you put it. Actually, none of them know about the others' deaths when meeting Ellie. She always asks for Abby, and they each resist the offer for their own reasons. I don't fault any of them for it. Abby is the only one who realizes that she is being stalked and why, but only very far along after coming face to face with Tommy. Even though he'd just splattered Manny's dome on her face, and then tried to kill her, she didn't pursue him. She instead went to rescue Lev. When Abby finds her friends dead, she assumes it was Tommy. She didn't realize there were others along until Ellie and Jesse burst through the door. She never learns anything about Nora, Nick, Jordan, etc... She can maybe guess; but by that point she's never returning to Seattle to confirm their fates, as far as we know. You can gather broadstrokes from the internet, but there's a ton of things you just can't know about the story and characters without playing the game. I seem to recall you not wanting to discuss things with me. It was in some post where you acted all superior to anyone who dared disagree with you about kissing this game's ass. You know, like in this post. Also none of what you said goes against my post. Sofa noted that even in their stealth playthrough they had to kill someone, so Ellie broke into their place, killed their friends, and as you noted showed an interest in killing another. You can try to twist things however you want in a vain attempt to justify the little monster's actions, but the facts are with me. You and the others are acting like a burglar who breaks into a house and kills the owner because the owner tries to kill them for breaking into their house are innocent of wrongdoing and acted in self-defense while it was the home owner at fault. Now, how about you honor your earlier promise and don't talk to me in here.
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Post by SofaJockey on Jun 29, 2020 23:05:35 GMT
So yes then. But fine, after you break into their house and kill one of their friends/family. Better? As for the later example, after you’ve broken into multiple of their houses and killed their friends/family. So thank you for proving my point and showing I’m not “cheerfully making stuff up” as you put it. No. That's more nonsense. Ellie entered two Wolf bases (The Serevena Hotel and Channel 13). They were both empty other than infected. Sneaking into the hospital led to two unavoidable killings: The woman in the basement who tries to knife Ellie and Nora who is infected. And the Aquarium, killing Alice, Owen and Mel only in self-defence. Multiple teams of Wolves attacked Ellie (away from their bases) on numerous occasions. It's fine to dislike elements of the plot but misunderstanding what has happened because you haven't actually played the game isn't making for a very productive discussion.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jun 29, 2020 23:07:58 GMT
So yes then. But fine, after you break into their house and kill one of their friends/family. Better? As for the later example, after you’ve broken into multiple of their houses and killed their friends/family. So thank you for proving my point and showing I’m not “cheerfully making stuff up” as you put it. No. That's more nonsense. Ellie entered two Wolf bases (The Serevena Hotel and Channel 13). They were both empty other than infected. Sneaking into the hospital led to two unavoidable killings: The woman in the basement who tries to knife Ellie and Nora who is infected. And the Aquarium, killing Alice, Owen and Mel only in self-defence. Multiple teams of Wolves attacked Ellie (away from their bases) on numerous occasions. It's fine to dislike elements of the plot but misunderstanding what has happened because you haven't actually played the game isn't making for a very productive discussion. Neither is discussing it with people who toss logic out the window to defend the protagonist's actions. This whole conversation reminds me of this: Also, again with that false sense of superiority.
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Post by Element Zero on Jun 29, 2020 23:14:11 GMT
Actually, none of them know about the others' deaths when meeting Ellie. She always asks for Abby, and they each resist the offer for their own reasons. I don't fault any of them for it. Abby is the only one who realizes that she is being stalked and why, but only very far along after coming face to face with Tommy. Even though he'd just splattered Manny's dome on her face, and then tried to kill her, she didn't pursue him. She instead went to rescue Lev. When Abby finds her friends dead, she assumes it was Tommy. She didn't realize there were others along until Ellie and Jesse burst through the door. She never learns anything about Nora, Nick, Jordan, etc... She can maybe guess; but by that point she's never returning to Seattle to confirm their fates, as far as we know. You can gather broadstrokes from the internet, but there's a ton of things you just can't know about the story and characters without playing the game. I seem to recall you not wanting to discuss things with me. It was in some post where you acted all superior to anyone who dared disagree with you about kissing this game's ass. You know, like in this post. Also none of what you said goes against my post. Sofa noted that even in their stealth playthrough they had to kill someone, so Ellie broke into their place, killed their friends, and as you noted showed an interest in killing another. You can try to twist things however you want in a vain attempt to justify the little monster's actions, but the facts are with me. You and the others are acting like a burglar who breaks into a house and kills the owner because the owner tries to kill them for breaking into their house are innocent of wrongdoing and acted in self-defense while it was the home owner at fault. Now, how about you honor your earlier promise and don't talk to me in here. 🙄 I made no such "promise", but I remain uninterested in pissing into the wind. I will assiduously avoid interacting with you as long as you wish. Cheers.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jun 29, 2020 23:21:31 GMT
I seem to recall you not wanting to discuss things with me. It was in some post where you acted all superior to anyone who dared disagree with you about kissing this game's ass. You know, like in this post. Also none of what you said goes against my post. Sofa noted that even in their stealth playthrough they had to kill someone, so Ellie broke into their place, killed their friends, and as you noted showed an interest in killing another. You can try to twist things however you want in a vain attempt to justify the little monster's actions, but the facts are with me. You and the others are acting like a burglar who breaks into a house and kills the owner because the owner tries to kill them for breaking into their house are innocent of wrongdoing and acted in self-defense while it was the home owner at fault. Now, how about you honor your earlier promise and don't talk to me in here. 🙄 I made no such "promise", but I remain uninterested in pissing into the wind. I will assiduously avoid interacting with you as long as you wish. Cheers. As do I. And thus since I like discussing other topics with you, it would probably be better to not discuss this one.
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Post by Element Zero on Jun 29, 2020 23:24:27 GMT
🙄 I made no such "promise", but I remain uninterested in pissing into the wind. I will assiduously avoid interacting with you as long as you wish. Cheers. As do I. And thus since I like discussing other topics with you, it would probably be better to not discuss this one. Agreed. I like talking, and dislike arguing. I should've PMed you the other day, instead of snapping. Apologies for that. We can disagree on this one and hopefully find better discussions on other topics.
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Post by SofaJockey on Jun 30, 2020 8:22:43 GMT
Also, again with that false sense of superiority. Just seeking to have a thoughtful conversation, but also to challenge hot air that comes blowing by. Often you put forward perfectly rational and insightful points about different games. On this occasion considerably less so. How could it be possible not to have the superior grasp of the subject after having played the game (nearly twice) when you haven't played the game at all and are basing your assessment on clips and conjecture? I have no personal animus against you, but I think you've hugely misunderstood this game. I don't think it's unreasonable in a discussion forum to challenge (without being rude about you personally) the position you have shared. But let's not overcook the matter, I think it's clear we perceive the game differently.
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Post by KaiserShep on Jun 30, 2020 8:45:59 GMT
I admit I feel kind of grateful that my lack of investment in the franchise allows me to look at the story beats and characters without having to muddy it up with strong feelings about what happens to the characters. All this hubbub had me looking more deeply into the story and characters and figuring out why people are doing what they do, but I feel one of the gravest mistakes is the marketing itself. It's one thing to have trailers that don't really accurately reflect the game, a la Pixar trailers where it's just a minute long vignette of certain characters, but it's another to sell a scene as if it's part of the game, when it really isn't. That kind of gotcha tactic is just a bad idea. Druckmann touches on this a bit in an interview online, going on about the lengths the studio went to to protect the story. Of course, the part that piqued my interest the most though is when he kind of reveals that he's in part responsible for the flagrant abuse of YouTube's copyright system by both Sony and Naughty Dog, even taking down videos of content creators that showed no footage of the game at all (which requires special intervention, not just some automated detection system). Regardless of what I or anyone else might think of the game, that bit right there isn't really a great look.
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Post by mugwump on Jun 30, 2020 10:03:12 GMT
Yeah, it's really not debatable that the game sees Ellie set out in pursuit of violent revenge, leading to the deaths of many. Come on now.
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Post by SofaJockey on Jun 30, 2020 11:27:57 GMT
Yeah, it's really not debatable that the game sees Ellie set out in pursuit of violent revenge, leading to the deaths of many. Come on now. That's a fair point. She's gunning for Abby. There are other character deaths that are tragic collateral damage. Then there's the background conflict between the Wolves and Seraphites determined to burn it all down around them. It's a brutal game on a railroad to hell, with glints of hope and forgiveness the only upside in tone. The first game playing Joel was really about Ellie. This game playing Ellie is very much also about Abby. Perhaps Abby will be the main protagonist in the (eventual) third game?
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Post by mugwump on Jun 30, 2020 14:03:44 GMT
The burgeoning relationship between Joel and Ellie was at the heart of the first game for sure. What would you say is at the heart of this latest game Sofa?
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Post by KaiserShep on Jun 30, 2020 15:02:42 GMT
I think it’s a fair bet that if they do create a new TLOU game, it will probably be a new protagonist altogether, unless they’re really looking to have another Abby death montage on YouTube lol.
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Post by Element Zero on Jun 30, 2020 15:35:04 GMT
The burgeoning relationship between Joel and Ellie was at the heart of the first game for sure. What would you say is at the heart of this latest game Sofa? You asked SofaJockey, but I'm sure you don't mind my participation. I'd say it's a story about the consequences of violence. It looks at just how much the protagonists, and those around them, lose in pursuit of vengeance. Most people would agree that Ellie in particular awoke to the poor exchange rate far later than would be sensible or desirable. She eventually gets it, but not until she's lost nearly everything but her life. I think it’s a fair bet that if they do create a new TLOU game, it will probably be a new protagonist altogether, unless they’re really looking to have another Abby death montage on YouTube lol. Unfortunately, that's probably true. It's a shame. They did such a good job telling her story and making her relatable. I'd like to see what becomes of her and Lev. That's something easily enough told via a DLC expansion, I guess. Meandering back to my thoughts on the characters and themes of the game... Abby was already sickened by her trip to Jackson when we join her in Seattle. She, Owen and Mel are all explicitly shown to be struggling with what they did. We don't really know about the others. She was already recognizing the cost of vengeance even before paying steep personal costs. The sullied conscience was burden enough. By the end, with all the reasons in the world to want to kill Ellie and friends, she lets them live again. What she did to Joel is the act of a very disturbed person. I can't imagine doing that sort of thing under any circumstance. Before and after that moment, though, we see plenty to like from her. I like Abby's character quite a bit; every bit as much as I like Ellie. I hope we get to see her do something positive with her future, even if it's only in a DLC chapter. I think this game showed that dark is one thing, but uber-dark might not be what most people want to play. The next game, if such happens, should probably sprinkle in a bit more humanity. Abby wrote in her letter-journal about caravans traveling the coast near LA. They sounded like solid, trustworthy people. Jackson was full of solid people. I know tension and fear are a huge part of this game's atmosphere, but it would probably be best to have a bit more positivity to the next story. Let us see more glimpses of humanity amongst all of the encounters with infected, cannibals and hunters. TLoU had the relationship and journey at its center, with a quest to save mankind as the pie in the sky goal. The next game could benefit from a more positive baseline goal than murder. Aiding in the further reestablishing of civilization? Yes. Beating cordyceps in some way? Yes. Facing the horrors of the world at every turn? Of course, that's expected. Just give us "a light in the dark". I'm sure this something they'd already considered, anyway. They knew this chapter was really dark and discussed whether it was too much so. Maybe it was for many. (I'll always wonder how the game would've been received if it had been experienced as intended, sans leaks, by all.) ND has smart, creative people. I'm sure they'd have known not to make a Part III as dark as this one regardless of reception. Oh, well. I'm rambling. Time to charge my phone. 🙃
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Post by SofaJockey on Jun 30, 2020 15:40:14 GMT
The burgeoning relationship between Joel and Ellie was at the heart of the first game for sure. What would you say is at the heart of this latest game Sofa? For me it's about Ellie and Abby's similar traumas. Both with reason behind their actions. Both with tragedy behind (and in front) of them. Both with friends to protect (largely unsuccessfully). Both having momentary happiness snatched away. I think it's about the question: When can you walk away from the violence? Abby does in the theater, Ellie does on the beach. I think it’s a fair bet that if they do create a new TLOU game, it will probably be a new protagonist altogether, unless they’re really looking to have another Abby death montage on YouTube lol. You didn't find that Abby had won you around by the end? I'd be very pleased to play more as Abby and see her story be developed.
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Post by Element Zero on Jun 30, 2020 15:58:42 GMT
Ok, so how would you reconcile the games desire to explore the consequences of violence with it offering ammo capacity upgrades as bonus DLC? Seems to me like certain peeps at ND are nothing like as smart or creative as they think they are. Meh. I don't really see conflict in this. I'm pretty sure they're just trying to tell a story, not trying enlighten the world in some way that only they could manage. Bonus ammo capacity is a typical presell bonus. It's so common that I assume data supports its effectiveness. I didn't notice or give any thought to my upgraded ammo capacity until dropping Ellie's pistol on the workbench for the first time. The upgrade I would eventually have crafted anyway was already unlocked. I promptly forgot about that until now. I'd say the great efforts they took to make the killing uncomfortable are more impactful and noticeable than pre-order perks. Every NPC had a name, a voice, conversations they'd share with their companions. Shooting them was gruesome. Stabbing or choking them was very up close, zooming in to give you a look into their eyes. It was the antithesis of a standard action game like ND's Uncharted. Whether individuals feel the weight as I did will vary; but I don't think their efforts can be disparaged or discounted.
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Post by KaiserShep on Jun 30, 2020 16:03:07 GMT
The burgeoning relationship between Joel and Ellie was at the heart of the first game for sure. What would you say is at the heart of this latest game Sofa? For me it's about Ellie and Abby's similar traumas. Both with reason behind their actions. Both with tragedy behind (and in front) of them. Both with friends to protect (largely unsuccessfully). Both having momentary happiness snatched away. I think it's about the question: When can you walk away from the violence? Abby does in the theater, Ellie does on the beach. I think it’s a fair bet that if they do create a new TLOU game, it will probably be a new protagonist altogether, unless they’re really looking to have another Abby death montage on YouTube lol. You didn't find that Abby had won you around by the end? I'd be very pleased to play more as Abby and see her story be developed. I’m commenting more on the general climate I’m observing around this character than my own feelings about it. I’m indifferent about Abby myself, due in part to not having played this, though I suspect that playing it probably wouldn’t change that much, judging by what I’ve seen so far. With all the intense dislike I’m seeing, Naughty Dog will likely leave this one alone. I get the sneaking suspicion that maybe this is why the game isn’t getting story DLC.
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Post by Element Zero on Jun 30, 2020 16:07:40 GMT
Learning that they have no plans for DLC is a bummer. They do a great job of telling a complete story within their games, so we aren't left hanging in an unsatisfying way. Still would've liked to see more of Abby and Lev, though. Alas.
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Post by KaiserShep on Jun 30, 2020 16:19:20 GMT
Ok, so how would you reconcile the games desire to explore the consequences of violence with it offering ammo capacity upgrades as bonus DLC? Seems to me like certain peeps at ND are nothing like as smart or creative as they think they are. I guess that’s just the lot in life games are stuck in. No matter what kind of story or message it wants to convey, in the end, it’s also a slave to its core gameplay system. As players, we like to kill things, and offering bonuses to kill things more effectively is always a plus.
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Post by KaiserShep on Jun 30, 2020 16:47:11 GMT
I guess that’s just the lot in life games are stuck in. No matter what kind of story or message it wants to convey, in the end, it’s also a slave to its core gameplay system. As players, we like to kill things, and offering bonuses to kill things more effectively is always a plus. That gameplay systems and story jive in a way that makes very little sense is actually kind of my point. Well, it’s part of why the whole consequence of violence thing isn’t a message that resonates with me within a game, especially when the game makes most if not all of the people you encounter out in the wilds actively hostile with no way to subdue them and evade. If I kill people in droves, I don’t care if they have names or a life outside of their patrol. As a fellow human being, I’m already aware of those things being inherent with other human beings. I just don’t care, ‘cause they wanna kill me. Personally, I find it more affecting when the person I kill is someone I could just as well have left alone. In ME2, killing Joram on the Citadel just seems needlessly evil. Sure, he doesn’t gurgle and writhe in pain in gruesome detail, but my “hero” is still murdering someone unjustly.
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Post by SofaJockey on Jun 30, 2020 17:20:04 GMT
With all the intense dislike I’m seeing, Naughty Dog will likely leave this one alone. I don't see dislikes being the prevailing sentiment. The dislikes that are shared appear to come from: - People that haven't played it.
- Bigoted assholes
- People who played it genuinely disappointed by the story direction (fair enough)
Game sales have been phenomenal, despite leaks, so I would see Naughty Dog being more than confident that they have a huge player-base they can take forward to a further instalment. given Abby's sadism and Ellie's almost relentless brutality throughout the game. I mean, do either even have the means or right to simply 'walk away' from it at the end? In any case, thanks for responding. I saw neither sadism from Abby nor relentless brutality from Ellie. Puzzled where that idea comes from. Did you play the game?
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