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Post by Hrungr on Sept 8, 2020 19:08:56 GMT
Though there does appear to be something Fade-y going on at what I'm assuming is Weisshaupt. My pet theory for ages now is that Solas will be partially successful. He'll start bringing down the Veil, but we'll be able to contain it to a certain region. And Weisshaupt is great because there's not a whole lot going on in the Anderfels. So in that way BW can have its cake and eat it too. You'd have a cool new Fadelands to explore, but it won't wreak havok on the whole setting. I'm sure there'll still be nations we haven't explored by the end of DA4, so you don't want to take wrecking ball to them (just yet). That does beg the question between TVN, the trailer, and Jackdaw's analysis which real nations won't we visit at this point. Rivain is the only that comes forcibly to mind. Par Vollen obviously but don't know how much exploring we could actually do up there. Hard to say. How many of those locations we see in the concept art will actually make into the final game? And even the nations we do get to visit, how many of the noteworthy locations will we actually get to see?
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Post by Iakus on Sept 8, 2020 19:12:02 GMT
Yes, I can imagine the howlings about such things but given how much fandom howls about things these days...not just this one but ALL fandom...I care little for their respective howling. As long as A. I like it B. Its executed well and C. there is set up for it. Well, the bad news is, Bioware's not going to turn a profit if you're the only one who buys a copy...
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Post by azarhal on Sept 8, 2020 19:26:14 GMT
Its only going to be an RGB ending if we get any choice in the matter. I posit that, either way, we won't.Could yo imagine the howls that would ensue then? RGB has already been held up as an example of how NOT to respect player choice. Denying it completely would, if anything, get a WORSE response. No, I think Bioware is going to delay such an event as long as possible, until they either find a better way to reflect player choice in the matter, or are totally done with Thedas and are ready to reboot/scrap the entire setting. The Veil coming down has been foreshadowed since the first game. It was foreshadowed in comics. It was foreshadowed in DA2. There was never anything anywhere that suggested players will get to decide if it happens or not. "Stopping Solas" doesn't mean it will stop it from happening. Flemeth too wants the Veil gone....and you could kill her in DAO. Look at how well that worked in the next game.
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Post by gervaise21 on Sept 8, 2020 19:30:07 GMT
You'd have a cool new Fadelands to explore, but it won't wreak havok on the whole setting. I'm sure there'll still be nations we haven't explored by the end of DA4, so you don't want to take wrecking ball to them (just yet).
I was watching Leliana talk about the Hero of Ferelden's quest today. She says how it took them into the far west, to lands which have never known the Blight. Now I suppose it could be a case that there is blight under the surface but the darkspawn have not reached there because, may be, no Old God to call them, but it still makes me wonder. How far west would you have to travel and why would the Hero think that a place that had never known the blight might have a cure for the taint? Is it that they had some sort of magic that could hold off or counter the blight? Of course, it is likely they will quietly drop this idea because it was simply an excuse not to have the Hero involved in events in DAI, but there would seem to be so much scope for adventure off the sides of the map in all directions that I hope that whatever they do in DA4 it ties off the Solas plot so we can go exploring further afield.
It also made me wonder, does the Veil affect the entire world or only a part of it? The Executors getting involved in affairs of Thedas would suggest it would be a problem for people "off the map" but it would be interesting to know. Why did the Warden not seem disturbed by Rifts in the Veil where they were (no mention of them) and would not people there want to know the cause of such a rift? It is also curious that out west across the sea where the Voshai come from there would appear to be no elves.
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Post by Hrungr on Sept 8, 2020 20:10:03 GMT
I was watching Leliana talk about the Hero of Ferelden's quest today. She says how it took them into the far west, to lands which have never known the Blight. Now I suppose it could be a case that there is blight under the surface but the darkspawn have not reached there because, may be, no Old God to call them, but it still makes me wonder. How far west would you have to travel and why would the Hero think that a place that had never known the blight might have a cure for the taint? Is it that they had some sort of magic that could hold off or counter the blight? Of course, it is likely they will quietly drop this idea because it was simply an excuse not to have the Hero involved in events in DAI, but there would seem to be so much scope for adventure off the sides of the map in all directions that I hope that whatever they do in DA4 it ties off the Solas plot so we can go exploring further afield. It also made me wonder, does the Veil affect the entire world or only a part of it? The Executors getting involved in affairs of Thedas would suggest it would be a problem for people "off the map" but it would be interesting to know. Why did the Warden not seem disturbed by Rifts in the Veil where they were (no mention of them) and would not people there want to know the cause of such a rift? It is also curious that out west across the sea where the Voshai come from there would appear to be no elves. Yeah, same. They do seem to be building up to exploring more of the world, and they've wisely left teasers everywhere. It's just a question which ones they'll pick up on (other than the Executors & Kossith). I agree they likely won't do more than hint at the far west for a while. It's just a question of whether the HoF's quest (or if they're dead) will impact the Wardens in any meaningful way. You can see how they're setting up their dominos with Solas, the Evanuris, the Executors, "Things from Beyond the Fade!", etc...
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Post by Deleted on Sept 8, 2020 20:33:44 GMT
So … Instead of Dragon Age: The Dread Wolf Rises … We get … Dragon Age: Solas Fades Away. [insert DKR "head banging desk" graphic here]
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Sept 8, 2020 21:07:50 GMT
So another way the Trespasser DLC flips us off? ???? Also makes Solas even more of a Corypheus 2.0 if he succeeds. Considering Cory didn't succeed I fail to see how. Also considering their motivations and character and objectives areentirely different. I’m pretty sure I remember the game starting with Corypheus creating the Breach.
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Post by arvaarad on Sept 8, 2020 21:19:34 GMT
???? Considering Cory didn't succeed I fail to see how. Also considering their motivations and character and objectives areentirely different. I’m pretty sure I remember the game starting with Corypheus creating the Breach. Yeah but he never achieved his ultimate goal. Which was, of course, “figure out why daddy Dumat lied to me about the Black City.”
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Post by necrowaif on Sept 8, 2020 21:21:49 GMT
Corypheus' ultimate goal was to achieve godhood and restore the Tevinter Imperium of his era. In that, he failed.
In fact, all Corypheus canonically succeeded at doing (besides murdering the Divine and a whole bunch of other people) was ending the Mage-Templar War by corrupting one side, bringing the Orlesian Civil War to an end by attempting to exacerbate the conflict, and foiling Solas' plans to destroy the world with his orb.
Truly, he was Thedas' greatest hero.
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Post by colfoley on Sept 8, 2020 21:24:47 GMT
???? Considering Cory didn't succeed I fail to see how. Also considering their motivations and character and objectives areentirely different. I’m pretty sure I remember the game starting with Corypheus creating the Breach. which was an accident and not what he was trying to do. Besides if Solas does succeed again everything is coming down.
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Post by midnight tea on Sept 8, 2020 21:37:32 GMT
Corypheus' ultimate goal was to achieve godhood and restore the Tevinter Imperium of his era. In that, he failed.
In fact, all Corypheus canonically succeeded at doing (besides murdering the Divine and a whole bunch of other people) was ending the Mage-Templar War by corrupting one side, bringing the Orlesian Civil War to an end by attempting to exacerbate the conflict, and foiling Solas' plans to destroy the world with his orb.
Truly, he was Thedas' greatest hero. I love this kind of ironic twists This is also why I'm amused when people accuse Cory of being a generic and weak villain - that's a very shallow reading of the whole thing, as being the main baddie was... not really what he was for in the story, even if most his actions are the opposite of what he really wanted or aimed at.
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Post by NotN7 on Sept 8, 2020 22:09:52 GMT
Yes, I can imagine the howlings about such things but given how much fandom howls about things these days...not just this one but ALL fandom...I care little for their respective howling. As long as A. I like it B. Its executed well and C. there is set up for it. Well, the bad news is, Bioware's not going to turn a profit if you're the only one who buys a copy... Sorry, But I will buy a copy and I'm sure you will too when you find out your wrong and when you do I'll not let you live it down (in a tasteful way )
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Post by arvaarad on Sept 8, 2020 22:20:07 GMT
Corypheus' ultimate goal was to achieve godhood and restore the Tevinter Imperium of his era. In that, he failed.
In fact, all Corypheus canonically succeeded at doing (besides murdering the Divine and a whole bunch of other people) was ending the Mage-Templar War by corrupting one side, bringing the Orlesian Civil War to an end by attempting to exacerbate the conflict, and foiling Solas' plans to destroy the world with his orb.
Truly, he was Thedas' greatest hero. “You fixed my shoulder!”
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Post by Iakus on Sept 8, 2020 22:32:03 GMT
Well, the bad news is, Bioware's not going to turn a profit if you're the only one who buys a copy... Sorry, But I will buy a copy and I'm sure you will too when you find out your wrong and when you do I'll not let you live it down (in a tasteful way ) Umm, if I'm wrong, why wouldn't I buy a copy?
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Post by DragonKingReborn on Sept 8, 2020 23:06:57 GMT
Corypheus' ultimate goal was to achieve godhood and restore the Tevinter Imperium of his era. In that, he failed.
In fact, all Corypheus canonically succeeded at doing (besides murdering the Divine and a whole bunch of other people) was ending the Mage-Templar War by corrupting one side, bringing the Orlesian Civil War to an end by attempting to exacerbate the conflict, and foiling Solas' plans to destroy the world with his orb.
Truly, he was Thedas' greatest hero. ....I....holy shit.
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Post by AlleluiaElizabeth on Sept 8, 2020 23:24:25 GMT
*incoherent fangirl squeal*... Ahem. Excuse me. Breathe love, breathe
What? I like wolves.
(And kinda hate dracolisks. >_>)
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Post by DragonKingReborn on Sept 8, 2020 23:33:28 GMT
(And kinda hate dracolisks. _]" class="smile"])
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Post by AlleluiaElizabeth on Sept 8, 2020 23:40:49 GMT
(And kinda hate dracolisks. _]" class="smile"]) Dracolisks, not dragons. Dracolisks are deformed lizards. Dragons and drakes are majestic. Totally different.
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Post by DragonKingReborn on Sept 8, 2020 23:43:40 GMT
My superiority complex has been assuaged.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Sept 9, 2020 0:56:57 GMT
That is not very hard to do at all. Dragon Age: Origins had sexual assault in it, and supposedly the sexual abuse of city elves in particular is common, but BioWare didn't have Alistair say "actually I think rape is fine, especially when it happens to those filthy city elves", even though, given the bigoted nature of the setting, it would have "made sense" for him to have that opinion. No they just gave the PC the option to take the money to look the other way over what Vaughan did, which could be said to be endorsing sexual abuse (let's call it what was actually implied here and that is it was rape). Likewise, later on you can look the other way and get some minor benefit from letting Caladrius walk away with the elven slaves. I never did either of these things but clearly there are players that do. Surely letting those be options are far worse than just have Dorian defend slavery when that was in keeping with the context of his background? Of course it has now been revealed that he did in fact free all his slaves through the influence of "someone" in the south, so why not let him have that epiphany actually in the game if the Inquisitor objects strongly enough to his attitude ? (which actually I do not feel we were allowed to do). To be clear, I am not trying to accuse BioWare of "endorsing" slavery. I'm sure that everyone at BioWare agrees that "slavery" is bad (internal crunch issues not withstanding). I'm sure that, as other posters have said, they thought they were just doing what "made sense" for Dorian, given his upbringing, and simply didn't consider any potential consequences. Of course, "makes sense" is actually a faulty argument. Dorian could also have been opposed to slavery from the start and that would have also "made sense". Because it's a work of fiction. Likewise, I don't necessarily agree that giving people those options you've listed is the same as "endorsement". It's a staple of RPGs to allow people to do "evil" things, and fiction in general is full of protagonists who behave questionably or are even outright "evil". There are even fantasy games that put the player in the role of a Sauron-style "evil overlord" And those stories should be allowed to exist. I think there's actually a significant difference between allowing the player to make "evil" choices, and having a character we're supposed to like/think is a good person endorse those choices. If Alistair or Leliana gave you Approval for taking Vaughan's bribe or slaughtering the City Elves in exchange for a boost in Constitution, I think we'd all agree that was extremely weird. Whereas if it was Morrigan, (who we all know is self-interested, and who many people think of as "evil" in the traditional D&D alignment sense), a lot of people wouldn't bat an eye. Although personally I think Morrigan would draw the line at both rape and needless slaughter. Overall, I find BioWare's casual attitude towards slavery very strange. Little things like allowing Hawke to own a slave, or having Anders give approval for selling Fenris back into slavery, f0r instance. Not to mention the revelation in the comics that Isabela participated in the slave trade for years, and drowned a bunch of slaves to save her own skin, yet the story still painting her as a sympathetic character. BioWare would never, never, NEVER have a party member say that rape is good, or give approval for committing or allowing rape, or write a comic revealing that a party member had committed rape in the past. So I don't understand why slavery is apparently just fine. Murder can be committed in self defense or in the defense of others, someone might need to steal because they are starving, or to procure life-saving medicine. Rape and slavery are both purely abusive, with no possible justification. You can't claim self-defense, you can't claim you needed to do them to save your own life or someone else's. Maybe there's a widespread, prevailing opinion that slavery "isn't that bad" if the slaves are "treated well". I do not agree. I think the mere act of owning someone, stripping them of basic rights and freedoms and reducing them to "property" is a violation on par with, or even worse than rape.
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Post by azarhal on Sept 9, 2020 1:13:17 GMT
It also made me wonder, does the Veil affect the entire world or only a part of it? The Executors getting involved in affairs of Thedas would suggest it would be a problem for people "off the map" but it would be interesting to know. Why did the Warden not seem disturbed by Rifts in the Veil where they were (no mention of them) and would not people there want to know the cause of such a rift? It is also curious that out west across the sea where the Voshai come from there would appear to be no elves. This is a good question. If the Veil doesn't cover the entire world, then some places are free flowing with magic and maybe people living there have issues coming over the "game map" because of the Veil, just like the expeditions trying to leave end-up not coming back because crossing the Veil cause issues. Would explain why Solas knows the Executors are dangerous. As for the lack of elves with the Voshai, I think the elves migrated vertically from top (Fade/Crossroad) to bottom (Deep Roads) over the current game map instead of horizontally from "off the map" like the humans. Their Fade/Crossroad constructs are way grander than the ones on the ground. Dwarves could be anywhere there is land/titan. We have some hole in the human migration paths thought. They don't come from the same areas and while the Neromenians sound like the first over Thedas, they pushed South/conflicted with the Planasene/Inghirsh which suggest they were a 2nd wave instead. It's also hard to tell if they migrated before or after the Veil was put up, but there seems to have been a second gradual neutering of magic after the first Blight. And after DAI, I'm still wondering who plugged the Rift the Magisters created to reach the Black City the first time around...
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Post by midnight tea on Sept 9, 2020 1:22:35 GMT
No they just gave the PC the option to take the money to look the other way over what Vaughan did, which could be said to be endorsing sexual abuse (let's call it what was actually implied here and that is it was rape). Likewise, later on you can look the other way and get some minor benefit from letting Caladrius walk away with the elven slaves. I never did either of these things but clearly there are players that do. Surely letting those be options are far worse than just have Dorian defend slavery when that was in keeping with the context of his background? Of course it has now been revealed that he did in fact free all his slaves through the influence of "someone" in the south, so why not let him have that epiphany actually in the game if the Inquisitor objects strongly enough to his attitude ? (which actually I do not feel we were allowed to do). To be clear, I am not trying to accuse BioWare of "endorsing" slavery. I'm sure that everyone at BioWare agrees that "slavery" is bad (internal crunch issues not withstanding). I'm sure that, as other posters have said, they thought they were just doing what "made sense" for Dorian, given his upbringing, and simply didn't consider any potential consequences. Of course, "makes sense" is actually a faulty argument. Dorian could also have been opposed to slavery from the start and that would have also "made sense". Because it's a work of fiction. Likewise, I don't necessarily agree that giving people those options you've listed is the same as "endorsement". It's a staple of RPGs to allow people to do "evil" things, and fiction in general is full of protagonists who behave questionably or are even outright "evil". There are even fantasy games thay put that player in the role of a Sauron-style "evil overlord" And those stories should be allowed to exist. I think there's actually a significant difference between allowing the player to make "evil" choices, and having a character we're supposed to like/think is a good person endorse those choices. If Alistair or Leliana gave you Approval for taking Vaughan's bribe or slaughtering the City Elves in exchange for a boost in Constitution, I think we'd all agree that was extremely weird. Whereas if it was Morrigan, (who we all know is self-interested, and who many people think of as "evil" in the traditional D&D alignment sense), a lot of people wouldn't bat an eye. Although personally I think Morrigan would draw the line at both rape and needless slaughter. Overall, I find BioWare's casual attitude towards slavery very strange. Little things like allowing Hawke to own a slave, or having Anders give approval for selling Fenris back into slavery. Not to mention the revelation in the comics that Isabela participated in the slave trade for years, and drowned a bunch of slaves to save her own skin, yet the story still painting her as a sympathetic character. BioWare would never, never, NEVER have a party member say that rape is good, or give approval for committing or allowing rape, or write a comic revealing that a party member had committed rape in the past. So I don't understand why slavery is apparently just fine. Murder can be committed in self defense or in the defense of others, someone might need to steal because they are starving, or to procure life-saving medicine. Rape and slavery are both purely abusive, with no possible justification. You can't claim self-defense, you can't claim you needed to do them to save your own life or someone else's. Maybe there's a widespread, prevailing opinion that slavery "isn't that bad" if the slaves are "treated well". I do not agree. I think the mere act of owning someone, stripping them of basic rights and freedoms and reducing them to "property" is a violation on par with, or even worse than rape. I wouldn't characterize slavery as being thought of as 'just fine' in Bioware's world - characters can recover from some deeds if they show enough guilt, remorse and drive towards some form of redemption (Isabela, Blackwall), but the truth remains that while we TODAY view slavery as something horrendous, we had to grow as humans and as society to see it this way. In contrast, people had very questionable attitude towards rape or what constituted as rape, but as a concept it was considered a violation or a bad deed for quite some time already... Slavery wasn't. Thedas appears to not be there in this regard the way we are and places like Tevinter, as proven by Dorian, are mostly blind to the fact that it's an egregious thing. Heck, was the fact raised during this whole discussion that Calpernia is a slave who DIDN'T sem to want to overthrow slavery - only worked towards slaves being treated way better and their life meant something? I think her story is written to show that those who are oppressed don't always see their oppression. It isn't their fault - it's conditioned culturally and they are made feel by the oppressing system that they are less. And that liberating them would be a more involved process that would require significant cultural changes, otherwise the shadow of slavery will keep rearing its ugly head, as those who are enslaved and liberated would still find themselves at big systemic disadvantage (like Fenris's sister), yet them having obstacles and starting from a worse position will be held against them as proof that they are still less than other groups of people. Like different kind of oppression we already saw it is still a motive that can be used as illustrative and at least vaguely reflective of issues still persisting in our own society today, or analyze those persisting problems that have stemmed from a period we didn't think of slavery as horrendous.
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Post by phoray on Sept 9, 2020 2:25:11 GMT
I'm been learning about Rome recently. A lot of stories of women who were raped had the women kill themselves to maintain their honor, and everyone around them seemed to think rape was horrible, but seemingly only ina property sort of way. Because then there are stories of capturing and marrying women due to a wife shortage, but then none of those women offed themselves supposedly, because their nonconsensual relationship had a purpose that benefitted the people who wrote the history about themselves.
I guess it's a weird spot. It's an imaginary world that draws inspiration from history while applying a modern lense regarding morality. History seems pretty okay with rape and slavery, how much can they draw from history and still apply modern vision on it? They already, imo, backtracked on their cool hippie love feeling, where anyone could be bi or pan, cuz marriage was about babies but love could be with anyone. And then we get Dorian's conversion therapy horror story. They can't seem to make up their mind between being inspired by and copying
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Post by colfoley on Sept 9, 2020 7:21:52 GMT
I'm been learning about Rome recently. A lot of stories of women who were raped had the women kill themselves to maintain their honor, and everyone around them seemed to think rape was horrible, but seemingly only ina property sort of way. Because then there are stories of capturing and marrying women due to a wife shortage, but then none of those women offed themselves supposedly, because their nonconsensual relationship had a purpose that benefitted the people who wrote the history about themselves. I guess it's a weird spot. It's an imaginary world that draws inspiration from history while applying a modern lense regarding morality. History seems pretty okay with rape and slavery, how much can they draw from history and still apply modern vision on it? They already, imo, backtracked on their cool hippie love feeling, where anyone could be bi or pan, cuz marriage was about babies but love could be with anyone. And then we get Dorian's conversion therapy horror story. They can't seem to make up their mind between being inspired by and copying different cultures though. In the South everything is fine and happy to lucky...not so in Tevinter. Even then its fascinating because the reasons they give aren't what you find IRL. 1. Their objections are more practical then religious. They want to make the perfect mages, blending together suitable couples so they can produce stronger hairs and rise up the food chain. 2. Even in Tevinter homosexuality is ok, as long as its behind closed doors and in public...you marry the girl. At least that's what Dorian's commentary indicated
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Elvis Has Left The Building
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Post by pessimistpanda on Sept 9, 2020 7:34:21 GMT
Meh, it's not markedly different from the historical tendency for people to wed strategically or even incestuously in order to maintain wealth, or the 'nobility'/'purity' of the bloodline. You just swap out 'wealth' for 'magic' which, in Tevinter, largely amounts to the same thing.
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