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2. This problem was literally as bad...and also non existent in Inquisition considering how Inquisition gave me direct control over my characters and that the AI never went off charging ahead pursuing darkspawn which just happened to turn around upon being sighted.

Tell that to Dorian who was convinced he could solo a high dragon..

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The next DRAGON AGE™: Behind the scenes at BioWare Nov 2, 2020 16:10:13 GMT eternalambiguity likes this

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Post by Iakus on Nov 2, 2020 16:10:13 GMT

Nov 2, 2020 3:52:22 GMT eternalambiguity said:

Nov 2, 2020 3:31:45 GMT colfoley said:

I know Inquisition had its moments...Varric would stand in front of a Hurlock Alpha taking hits, Blackwall...doing Blackwall things...Irom Bull just standing there when I didn't set up the tactics right. But Origins was just as bad in all respects. I remember times when I'd open a door, knowing/ expecting it was a trap just to have my party run ahead and eat a fireball taking heavy damage. Of squadmates tearing off after genlocks and hurlocks into obvious traps taking arrow fire. Indeed because of the god awful auto attack system I can't tell you how many times I was literally wrestling with the controls to stop my Player Character from chasing off of them as well...and sometimes I did not make it.

Though ironically I cannot remember much issues from this happening with Dragon Age 2...

I don't think it was literally as bad - those scenarios would have been a problem in Inquisition too, in addition to the near-removal of Origin's tactics.

And either way, most of that could be handled with the Advanced Tactics mod, which, I'll point out, allows one to enable tactics for the controlled character, which is now my favorite feature in pretty much any RPG...anyway. Those things could be fixed with modding. Sadly (nearly) absent in Inquisition.

I'm going to have to look into that before finishing another DAI run...

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The next DRAGON AGE™: Behind the scenes at BioWare Nov 2, 2020 17:16:12 GMT Iakus, ewigDunkelheit, and 1 more like this

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Post by eternalambiguity on Nov 2, 2020 17:16:12 GMT

Nov 2, 2020 3:52:22 GMT eternalambiguity said:

I don't think it was literally as bad - those scenarios would have been a problem in Inquisition too, in addition to the near-removal of Origin's tactics.

And either way, most of that could be handled with the Advanced Tactics mod, which, I'll point out, allows one to enable tactics for the controlled character, which is now my favorite feature in pretty much any RPG...anyway. Those things could be fixed with modding. Sadly (nearly) absent in Inquisition.

1. Telling a console gamer that there is a 'mod for that' is like telling someone stranded in a desert to go drink some water.

2. This problem was literally as bad...and also non existent in Inquisition considering how Inquisition gave me direct control over my characters and that the AI never went off charging ahead pursuing darkspawn which just happened to turn around upon being sighted.

1. Fair enough

2. I really do not think it's as bad, for several reasons. Just to clarify the comparison is between "chasing enemies over traps" in DAO, vs ranged character problems in Inquisition.

2a. Enemies retreating with the intent of leading your characters over traps is a deliberate gameplay mechanic, while ranged characters not staying ranged is not.

2b. In DAO both you and the enemies can engage in this behavior - leading the opponent over traps. In DA I enemy ranged characters will run away from you and fire (archers at least, I don't remember about mages) when you get close, but your characters can't do that.

2c. There are a lot of fights with traps in DAO, but it's not all of them, and probably not the majority. In contrast, in pretty much every fight in Inquisition Varric is going to charge into the middle of the melee and get yeeted by that barbarian with a hammer.

2d. Even if you can't completely eliminate it in DAO, you can mitigate it significantly by changing character behaviors to ones that won't pursue the enemy, and using "Aggressive" behaviors (those that will pursue) only on your melee characters with high CON so they can tank the damage. In Inquisition the only choice you have is to tell your party members to "Hold," but sometimes they'll break it, and that option is of course bad if Varric is tasting the business end of a barbarian's hammer (unless you're into that sort of thing of course).

Nov 2, 2020 16:10:13 GMT Iakus said:

Nov 2, 2020 3:52:22 GMT eternalambiguity said:

I don't think it was literally as bad - those scenarios would have been a problem in Inquisition too, in addition to the near-removal of Origin's tactics.

And either way, most of that could be handled with the Advanced Tactics mod, which, I'll point out, allows one to enable tactics for the controlled character, which is now my favorite feature in pretty much any RPG...anyway. Those things could be fixed with modding. Sadly (nearly) absent in Inquisition.

I'm going to have to look into that before finishing another DAI run...

Yeah it's amazing, as you implied in another post I literally just sit back and watch almost every battle in the game (sometimes I jump in if there's an Arcane Horror or something).

Last Edit: Nov 2, 2020 17:19:35 GMT by eternalambiguity

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The next DRAGON AGE™: Behind the scenes at BioWare Nov 2, 2020 18:29:24 GMT colfoley likes this

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Post by smilesja on Nov 2, 2020 18:29:24 GMT

Nov 2, 2020 15:07:55 GMT ergates said:

I know Inquisition had its moments...Varric would stand in front of a Hurlock Alpha taking hits, Blackwall...doing Blackwall things...Irom Bull just standing there when I didn't set up the tactics right. But Origins was just as bad in all respects. I remember times when I'd open a door, knowing/ expecting it was a trap just to have my party run ahead and eat a fireball taking heavy damage. Of squadmates tearing off after genlocks and hurlocks into obvious traps taking arrow fire. Indeed because of the god awful auto attack system I can't tell you how many times I was literally wrestling with the controls to stop my Player Character from chasing off of them as well...and sometimes I did not make it.

Though ironically I cannot remember much issues from this happening with Dragon Age 2...
I disagree that we have seen a significant decline in such things, actually I disagree with your entire premise given the evidence. There have been multiple games from big name developers, including EA, that is either primarily or entirely single player...or at the very least can be played that way. EA: Dragon Age Inquisition (last DA game) and Mass Effect Andromeda (last ME game). Plus Jedi Fallen Order and Star Wars Squadrons. (And I feel like I am forgetting a few). Rockstar: RDR2 and GTA 5. Activision: Call of Duty. CDPR: Cyberpunk, the Witcher series. Ubisoft: All of their major franchises are either entirely Single player or can be played that way.

Honestly if anything there is still a market for Single Player games...and SIngle Player live service games. I mean as I am wriging this more examples just keep popping into my head. Every genre. Every studio/ developper. Bethesda would seem to be more the exception then the rule but I don't like them much so...

Honestly at this point I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if DA 4 is entirely SP. Granted its a bit of a long shot given their last couple of SP RPG titles had a MP mode but recent companies have proven there is still an market to be had for SP based games or games with heavy emphasis on SP.

Edit: I mean to prove how much of a market there is for such things despite what te publishers may or may not want EA released the original Star Wars Battlefront game as Multiplayer only. There was enough backlash against it that in the sequel they included a rather interesting SP campaign, as well as Single Player DLC. This is...again...EA we are talking about, a company who apparently hates SP games.

GTA 5 - 2013

Dragon Age Inquisition - 2014

The Witcher 3 - 2015

Mass Effect Andromeda - 2017

Jedi Fallen Order - 2019

Star Wars Squadrons - 2020

Cyberpunk - 2020

So of that list you provided, only three might be classed as recent titles - I guess Andromeda is recent-ish, so we won't quibble. From what I know about Squadrons, it's largely a multiplayer game with a short single player campaign included, so I guess it kind of counts. To be fair it does look pretty good.

In any case, I've never claimed that 'single player is dead', or 'no single player titles are being made', or anything of that nature - all I said was that major developers are sacrificing single player titles for multiplayer titles at this time. From their perspective it makes good business sense, given that their most lucrative revenue is switching rapidly from initial purchase sales to consistent ongoing sales via cash shops etc. Fallout 76's Atom store is a prime example, given that Bethesda have made triple the amount of revenue from this than they have from box sales.

My fear was that Bioware might well adopt a similar mindset, given how lucrative the online market is right now.

In any case, all this is academic, given that the promo above seems to strongly indicate that my fears were unfounded.

And? Multiplayer is very lucrative right now I see no problem having game developers shift their attention to it. Even CDPR is doing it with a multiplayer component of Cyberpunk coming after release. I mean Bioware is just chasing what's popular among gamers right now, but I'm sure they won't forget their roots.

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The next DRAGON AGE™: Behind the scenes at BioWare Nov 2, 2020 23:24:51 GMT smilesja and correctamundo like this

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Post by colfoley on Nov 2, 2020 23:24:51 GMT

Nov 2, 2020 15:35:14 GMT Buckeldemon said:

I know Inquisition had its moments...Varric would stand in front of a Hurlock Alpha taking hits, Blackwall...doing Blackwall things...Irom Bull just standing there when I didn't set up the tactics right. But Origins was just as bad in all respects. I remember times when I'd open a door, knowing/ expecting it was a trap just to have my party run ahead and eat a fireball taking heavy damage. Of squadmates tearing off after genlocks and hurlocks into obvious traps taking arrow fire. Indeed because of the god awful auto attack system I can't tell you how many times I was literally wrestling with the controls to stop my Player Character from chasing off of them as well...and sometimes I did not make it.

Though ironically I cannot remember much issues from this happening with Dragon Age 2...

DA2 also has it, on PC. Imagine a one of these pirate docks, your party in the middle hole, baddies spawning in several entrances. Your melee party members charging off into multiple directions. Though this can be prevented by adjusting behaviour to something less "aggressive" or going full ranged for a moment. And that was, like, the big bonus of DAO, everyone could use a ranged weapon in a pinch.

1. Telling a console gamer that there is a 'mod for that' is like telling someone stranded in a desert to go drink some water.

2. This problem was literally as bad...and also non existent in Inquisition considering how Inquisition gave me direct control over my characters and that the AI never went off charging ahead pursuing darkspawn which just happened to turn around upon being sighted.

I guess preventing the party from charging for a single ugly who is clearly a bait was some sort of intended tactical "micro challenge" in DAO. Just as much (and just as annoying) as the gambling introduced by stealth spammers who give us 1.5s to react (in DA2) or tend to appear in hordes with faaar too much health (Trespasser mountain ruins spirit horde, ugh).

That being said, I would welcome making AI better for console adaptions, no contest. What I dislike however is removing features from PC versions simply because consoles might not/cannot handle it. Looking at you, eight-ability interface limit.

Its an interesting perspective. Though I guess I wish it didn't feel so...clunky. Or stupid. I mean mini rant incoming but we should not have to set up our companions and do this they should be doing this stuff themselves.

The problem with making different ability limits for different platforms, and leaving it otherwise the same game is it really creates a problem with balance. So I was told by devs awhile ago wen this issue came up during Andromeda and so I have experienced. While playing on PC Dragon Age Origins was...servicable...still not exactly good but a lot better then the slog it was on consoles. So, the plan seems quite simple: Whatever you do you have to make the game balanced on both systems, unless you are changing more things between versions and that could create more uneeded complexity. One might not like it, but from a dev standpoint it makes perfect sense.

Nov 2, 2020 16:08:14 GMT Iakus said:

I know Inquisition had its moments...Varric would stand in front of a Hurlock Alpha taking hits, Blackwall...doing Blackwall things...Irom Bull just standing there when I didn't set up the tactics right. But Origins was just as bad in all respects. I remember times when I'd open a door, knowing/ expecting it was a trap just to have my party run ahead and eat a fireball taking heavy damage. Of squadmates tearing off after genlocks and hurlocks into obvious traps taking arrow fire. Indeed because of the god awful auto attack system I can't tell you how many times I was literally wrestling with the controls to stop my Player Character from chasing off of them as well...and sometimes I did not make it.

I remember the exact opposite. Set up the tactics menu right and the companions almost ran themselves. You need to fine-tune things for specific combats, but they wouldn't do terminally stupid things just because, like in DAI.

I don't know. I think by its very nature DAO required a lot more micromanaging. See my point above that a lot of this stuff should be unneccessary when you get right down to it...unless of course you happen to enjoy this sort of thing and crawling around menus. Me I prefer plug and play and Inquisition, while it could use some refinement did allow for that.

Nov 2, 2020 17:16:12 GMT eternalambiguity said:

1. Telling a console gamer that there is a 'mod for that' is like telling someone stranded in a desert to go drink some water.

2. This problem was literally as bad...and also non existent in Inquisition considering how Inquisition gave me direct control over my characters and that the AI never went off charging ahead pursuing darkspawn which just happened to turn around upon being sighted.

1. Fair enough

2. I really do not think it's as bad, for several reasons. Just to clarify the comparison is between "chasing enemies over traps" in DAO, vs ranged character problems in Inquisition.

2a. Enemies retreating with the intent of leading your characters over traps is a deliberate gameplay mechanic, while ranged characters not staying ranged is not.

2b. In DAO both you and the enemies can engage in this behavior - leading the opponent over traps. In DA I enemy ranged characters will run away from you and fire (archers at least, I don't remember about mages) when you get close, but your characters can't do that.

2c. There are a lot of fights with traps in DAO, but it's not all of them, and probably not the majority. In contrast, in pretty much every fight in Inquisition Varric is going to charge into the middle of the melee and get yeeted by that barbarian with a hammer.

2d. Even if you can't completely eliminate it in DAO, you can mitigate it significantly by changing character behaviors to ones that won't pursue the enemy, and using "Aggressive" behaviors (those that will pursue) only on your melee characters with high CON so they can tank the damage. In Inquisition the only choice you have is to tell your party members to "Hold," but sometimes they'll break it, and that option is of course bad if Varric is tasting the business end of a barbarian's hammer (unless you're into that sort of thing of course).

Nov 2, 2020 16:10:13 GMT Iakus said:

I'm going to have to look into that before finishing another DAI run...

Yeah it's amazing, as you implied in another post I literally just sit back and watch almost every battle in the game (sometimes I jump in if there's an Arcane Horror or something).

I think one of the issues is the combat design for both DAO and Inquisition might be a bit on the different side in the first place. Less room for that sort of thing. I mean hell theygot rid of traps period.

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The next DRAGON AGE™: Behind the scenes at BioWare Nov 2, 2020 23:47:30 GMT

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Post by eternalambiguity on Nov 2, 2020 23:47:30 GMT

Nov 2, 2020 23:32:34 GMT colfoley said:

I think one of the issues is the combat design for both DAO and Inquisition might be a bit on the different side in the first place. Less room for that sort of thing. I mean hell theygot rid of traps period.

Well the whole idea of traps doesn't really work in the wide open spaces that Inquisition had, but yeah they definitely have different designs and it goes even further. Consider all non-direct-combat skills in general--in Inquisition they're either in a separate system (the War Table) (dialogue), removed and available to all (herbalism), or removed completely (traps). One isn't necessarily better than the other, but they're clearly approaching things differently.

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Post by melbella on Nov 3, 2020 2:12:16 GMT

Nov 3, 2020 2:02:41 GMT Buckeldemon said:

(Trespasser mountain ruins spirit horde, ugh)

Drink from the Well and you won't have to fight any of them.

Dec 21, 2018 17:35:11 GMT Iakus said:

Tell that to Dorian who was convinced he could solo a high dragon..

Yeah, from right under its nose bashing it with his staff instead of raining down fire (or ice) balls from range. :facepalm:

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Post by correctamundo on Nov 3, 2020 6:55:52 GMT

Nov 2, 2020 16:08:14 GMT Iakus said:

I know Inquisition had its moments...Varric would stand in front of a Hurlock Alpha taking hits, Blackwall...doing Blackwall things...Irom Bull just standing there when I didn't set up the tactics right. But Origins was just as bad in all respects. I remember times when I'd open a door, knowing/ expecting it was a trap just to have my party run ahead and eat a fireball taking heavy damage. Of squadmates tearing off after genlocks and hurlocks into obvious traps taking arrow fire. Indeed because of the god awful auto attack system I can't tell you how many times I was literally wrestling with the controls to stop my Player Character from chasing off of them as well...and sometimes I did not make it.

I remember the exact opposite. Set up the tactics menu right and the companions almost ran themselves. You need to fine-tune things for specific combats, but they wouldn't do terminally stupid things just because, like in DAI.

The same goes for DAI. Set up tactics and behaviour correctly and you don't have to babysit your companions. Merely need some finetuning. In DAO on the other you have to go through the single most boring gameplay idea in gaming history to have your team be able to behave in a coherent manner. There are a lot of options but my lord programming is about as fun as watching paint dry.

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The next DRAGON AGE™: Behind the scenes at BioWare Nov 3, 2020 14:29:48 GMT via mobile Frost and SirSourpuss like this

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Post by theascendent on Nov 3, 2020 14:29:48 GMT

Anyone interested in turn based mode as an option or are we all fine with real time with pause. I am seeing many RPG's and CRPG's especially implementing them more and more.

Read the fine print.

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Post by correctamundo on Nov 3, 2020 15:32:45 GMT

Oh god no.

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Post by SirSourpuss on Nov 3, 2020 16:09:01 GMT

Nov 3, 2020 16:01:56 GMT theascendent said:

Anyone interested in turn based mode as an option or are we all fine with real time with pause. I am seeing many RPG's and CRPG's especially implementing them more and more.

I'd prefer RTwP, but TB is fine, too.

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Post by eternalambiguity on Nov 3, 2020 18:47:02 GMT

RTwP is TB.

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The next DRAGON AGE™: Behind the scenes at BioWare Nov 3, 2020 19:09:34 GMT melbella and telanadas like this

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Post by Buckeldemon on Nov 3, 2020 19:09:34 GMT

Nov 3, 2020 2:12:16 GMT melbella said:

Nov 3, 2020 2:02:41 GMT Buckeldemon said:

(Trespasser mountain ruins spirit horde, ugh)

Drink from the Well and you won't have to fight any of them.

Even the assassins? Well, you just gave me another pretty good argument to actually switch my main Lavellan to be the Well as opposed to the shemsplaining swamp witch.

Nov 2, 2020 23:24:51 GMT colfoley said:

Nov 2, 2020 15:35:14 GMT Buckeldemon said:

DA2 also has it, on PC. Imagine a one of these pirate docks, your party in the middle hole, baddies spawning in several entrances. Your melee party members charging off into multiple directions. Though this can be prevented by adjusting behaviour to something less "aggressive" or going full ranged for a moment. And that was, like, the big bonus of DAO, everyone could use a ranged weapon in a pinch.

I guess preventing the party from charging for a single ugly who is clearly a bait was some sort of intended tactical "micro challenge" in DAO. Just as much (and just as annoying) as the gambling introduced by stealth spammers who give us 1.5s to react (in DA2) or tend to appear in hordes with faaar too much health (Trespasser mountain ruins spirit horde, ugh).

That being said, I would welcome making AI better for console adaptions, no contest. What I dislike however is removing features from PC versions simply because consoles might not/cannot handle it. Looking at you, eight-ability interface limit.

Its an interesting perspective. Though I guess I wish it didn't feel so...clunky. Or stupid. I mean mini rant incoming but we should not have to set up our companions and do this they should be doing this stuff themselves.

The problem with making different ability limits for different platforms, and leaving it otherwise the same game is it really creates a problem with balance. So I was told by devs awhile ago wen this issue came up during Andromeda and so I have experienced. While playing on PC Dragon Age Origins was...servicable...still not exactly good but a lot better then the slog it was on consoles. So, the plan seems quite simple: Whatever you do you have to make the game balanced on both systems, unless you are changing more things between versions and that could create more uneeded complexity. One might not like it, but from a dev standpoint it makes perfect sense.

Of course, good default AI would be the best. I'd just take "average default AI with good options for adjustment" over "average AI with no/very limited options fro adjustment".

The thing is, unless we get a competitive PvP multiplayer, does this balance concern really matter? I never played DAI on console, but I found the jumping puzzles to be unbelieveably clunky on PC. And... forgive me to remind you again... I did play TFU on PC (exactly once) and found the jumping controls horrible, up the point that Starkiller could not fall with any kind of precision. I wonder if that's different on consoles.

It seems as if one platform needs to be selected as "default", so the other gets the potentially shitty adaptation. Here comes the trench war.

Nov 3, 2020 6:55:52 GMT correctamundo said:

Nov 2, 2020 16:08:14 GMT Iakus said:

I remember the exact opposite. Set up the tactics menu right and the companions almost ran themselves. You need to fine-tune things for specific combats, but they wouldn't do terminally stupid things just because, like in DAI.

The same goes for DAI. Set up tactics and behaviour correctly and you don't have to babysit your companions. Merely need some finetuning. In DAO on the other you have to go through the single most boring gameplay idea in gaming history to have your team be able to behave in a coherent manner. There are a lot of options but my lord programming is about as fun as watching paint dry.

Well, it is optional for DAO/DA2. I usually need one short session per character to set up their tactics, sometimes turning functions on and off, depending on situation. Not much different to DAI's way of telling a mage not to use fire spells if a horde of rage demons is coming in. Again, I see no point in taking optonal stuff away just because people don't like to use it. I mean, I don't use rogues much post DAO if I don't need to. I won't advocate for the resident glass cannons to be removed from the game. :lol:

Last Edit: Nov 3, 2020 19:10:18 GMT by Buckeldemon

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Post by Rascoth on Nov 3, 2020 19:15:28 GMT

Nov 3, 2020 19:09:34 GMT Buckeldemon said:

Nov 3, 2020 2:12:16 GMT melbella said:

Drink from the Well and you won't have to fight any of them.

Even the assassins? Well, you just gave me another pretty good argument to actually switch my main Lavellan to be the Well as opposed to the shemsplaining swamp witch.

Yep, you don't fight even a single spirit. In fact they help you fight with Qunari at one point.

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Post by Frost on Nov 3, 2020 23:39:31 GMT

Nov 3, 2020 14:29:48 GMT theascendent said:

Anyone interested in turn based mode as an option or are we all fine with real time with pause. I am seeing many RPG's and CRPG's especially implementing them more and more.

I like turn based.

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The next DRAGON AGE™: Behind the scenes at BioWare Nov 4, 2020 0:24:41 GMT

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Post by SirSourpuss on Nov 4, 2020 0:24:41 GMT

Nov 3, 2020 20:56:51 GMT eternalambiguity said:

RTwP is TB.

You know what I mean. Am I using the terminology wrong? Like, the combat system of Origins doesn't play exactly like the TB system of X-Com. How do I make that distinction, between the sequential TB system of X-Com to the RTwP of Icewind Dale, for example?

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The next DRAGON AGE™: Behind the scenes at BioWare Nov 4, 2020 1:28:08 GMT SirSourpuss likes this

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Post by eternalambiguity on Nov 4, 2020 1:28:08 GMT

Nov 4, 2020 0:24:41 GMT SirSourpuss said:

Nov 3, 2020 20:56:51 GMT eternalambiguity said:

RTwP is TB.

You know what I mean. Am I using the terminology wrong? Like, the combat system of Origins doesn't play exactly like the TB system of X-Com. How do I make that distinction, between the sequential TB system of X-Com to the RTwP of Icewind Dale, for example?

Sorry, that wasn't a response to you, but to the original question and question-er.

The main difference is the grid system I think. Most, if not all (I'm gonna boot it up right now to play a fight and check) gameplay elements in something like D:OS can be replicated in RTwP.