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Post by midnight tea on Sept 20, 2020 15:48:53 GMT
From my perspective pointing at Tevinter and saying 'look, Vints demonstrate the danger of being a mage, this is why we have to persecute you' is not very different from pointing and being like 'look, mages were awful in the past, this is why we have to persecute you'. Because while there exists reasonable caution against power that has turned sideways on its wielders multiple times, and in a perfect world it would be a subject of proper regulations or generally agreed rules, having magic isn't a reason for anyone to be treated as sub-human, just like having magic doesn't automatically makes one an ubermensch (esp. that we don't yet fully know why non-mages are non-mages or why the world is how it is, etc). Eh. I think there's a huge difference between keeping someone separated because their grandparents shot up the whole town, and keeping someone separated because their grandparents shot up the whole town and they were born with machine guns for arms. I get that the nuance might not mean a whole lot to the one being treated like a dangerous object, but whether or not they actually are is still a critical factor in figuring out whether their treatment is necessary in spite of its cruelty or just inhumane for no reason. It would never occur to me to argue that the current circle system seems like the optimal way to keep mages in check, but after three games of one magical catastrophe after another I would definitely argue that it seems better than nothing. It's certainly better than nothing, but it's 'better than nothing' in a world that has facilitated things being how they are. It's a vicious circle of abuse, IMO, and the fact that one thinks of magic as 'machine guns for arms' instead 'this mage could help our crops grow better' or 'this mage could help my children survive an illness' is a world in which approach to magic is problematic more than magic itself. And yes, individual mages can be far more dangerous to a group of people than a non-mage rando (unless that rando finds a magic artifact... or starts producing gunpowder, like Qunari do), but in Thedas not all tragedies and cataclysms are caused by mage-wielders, but quite often by conventional armies or oppressive systems that either have little to do with magic (slavery, racism, classism) or will justify using magic on others while pretending it isn't really one (Templars, Seekers, phylacteries). It's also lack of nuance and treating people like they're dangerous weapons that has been pointed out in the story multiple times to result in mages being conditioned to basically engage in self-fulfilling prophecy where they become dangerous weapons *because* they have been treated as such - never mind that a completely skewed understanding of magic and the Fade makes even mages have a very lopsided view on it, be it as a source of danger or power. Like, those magic cataclysms didn't happen in a vacuum. We exist in a world where magic ain't a thing, yet people use technology to cause cataclysms and we're so advanced now we can cause them on a global scale. We don't outright ban technology just because it gave us nukes or biological weapons, or has caused global warming - that stems from shortcomings in human character, the short-sightedness and seeing things in relation to power it can give, rather than progress and prosperity it can provide. So yea, while I agree that the Circle is a solution that is better than nothing, it's sort 'nothing' that is in large part caused by systems built within society to see virtually no other solution (other than downright elimination) and thus is an adequate fictional case-study for demonstrating how oppressive systems are formed, or how they work to make things how they are or how they are perceived, etc. Like... Wynne or Minaeve are excellent examples of people who find refuge in the Circle, but that's mostly because the Chantry has made the populace (and mages themselves) so afraid of magic they don't feel safe anywhere else. From my perspective, this is a decent, nuanced type of writing I like in Dragon Age.
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Post by Rouccoco on Sept 20, 2020 15:51:12 GMT
Again just because it was revealed that the Ancient Elves were pretty bad people doesn't excuse what the Tevinter Imperium by extension humanity did after the destruction of the Elven empire. Again, that’s not what is being argued here.
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Post by theascendent on Sept 20, 2020 16:33:10 GMT
Ahem. Moving on. I hope we actually get to explore and experience Minrathous unlike the disappointment that was Val Royeaux.
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Post by Catilina on Sept 20, 2020 16:37:34 GMT
BioWare is constantly bending over backwards to try and make the genocide of non-humans and mages and "barbarians" seem justified, and to make the perpetrators of these crimes (like Celene and Meredith) seem sympathetic. Because they have foolishly committed to some ridiculous notion of "moral ambiguity". Yes, I just can't wait for Rivain, where we'll discover that the mages in Dairsmuid actually deserved to be genocide’d, because they eat babies or something. The chantry trying to eradicate a culture they don't agree with was actually morally grey, you see!!1! Not necessarily, just blame Anders, good enough – I actually heard this argument... But of course, they eat babies, for blood rituals what else. I also heard argues, those Seekers were right, because the danger of Abominations were huge here...
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Sept 20, 2020 16:42:10 GMT
These arguments about how this side is better than that side and how introducing new facts and perspectives is mitigating crimes to me shows many people aren’t getting the point and are actually falling into the same trap of blaming the group for actions of individuals.
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Post by Noxluxe on Sept 20, 2020 16:42:59 GMT
It's certainly better than nothing, but it's 'better than nothing' in a world that has facilitated things being how they are. It's a vicious circle of abuse, IMO, and the fact that one thinks of magic as 'machine guns for arms' instead 'this mage could help our crops grow better' or 'this mage could help my children survive an illness' is a world in which approach to magic is problematic more than magic itself. And yes, individual mages can be far more dangerous to a group of people than a non-mage rando (unless that rando finds a magic artifact... or starts producing gunpowder, like Qunari do), but in Thedas not all tragedies and cataclysms are caused by mage-wielders, but quite often by conventional armies or oppressive systems that either have little to do with magic (slavery, racism, classism) or will justify using magic on others while pretending it isn't really one (Templars, Seekers, phylacteries). It's also lack of nuance and treating people like they're dangerous weapons that has been pointed out in the story multiple times to result in mages being conditioned to basically engage in self-fulfilling prophecy where they become dangerous weapons *because* they have been treated as such - never mind that a completely skewed understanding of magic and the Fade makes even mages have a very lopsided view on it, be it as a source of danger or power. Like, those magic cataclysms didn't happen in a vacuum. We exist in a world where magic ain't a thing, yet people use technology to cause cataclysms and we're so advanced now we can cause them on a global scale. We don't outright ban technology just because it gave us nukes or biological weapons, or has caused global warming - that stems from shortcomings in human character, the short-sightedness and seeing things in relation to power it can give, rather than progress and prosperity it can provide. So yea, while I agree that the Circle is a solution that is better than nothing, it's sort 'nothing' that is in large part caused by systems built within society to see virtually no other solution (other than downright elimination) and thus is an adequate fictional case-study for demonstrating how oppressive systems are formed, or how they work to make things how they are or how they are perceived, etc. Like... Wynne or Minaeve are excellent examples of people who find refuge in the Circle, but that's mostly because the Chantry has made the populace (and mages themselves) so afraid of magic they don't feel safe anywhere else. From my perspective, this is a decent, nuanced type of writing I like in Dragon Age. I wouldn't say that at all. Between the issues caused by mages being mistreated, and the issues caused by mages having had free reign, Thedas is suffering FAR more from the latter than the former, even a thousand years down the line. Like, it's not even close. You could have every single mage in the world healing children non-stop every day of their lives, and it still wouldn't begin to make up for any two of the Blights. And all five Blights combined don't come anywhere near the number of casualties actually caused by mages messing with things just because they had the power to. Treating magic and mages as generally too dangerous to exist freely is totally fair and reasonable for the average Thedasian going by modern history alone, even after the mage-templar war. No self-propagating religious or governmental fearmongering necessary, thank you very much. The practice is reliably saving way more lives than it's ruining. That it could ruin fewer lives by being more efficient and practical is unquestionable, and that needs to be worked on, but I don't see that any of the fear directed at mages is false or unjust in the slightest. Nor would yours be if a subset of the population had accidentally swallowed bombs packing various degrees of ordinance from hand-grenade to nuclear detonation and above that might or might not go off at moments of emotional distress, and you were forced to exist in a society with them. In fact, people aren't even as afraid as they should be, because they don't even know about the worst magical atrocities and disasters that have either already happened or just barely didn't. And the comparison to science is inherently flawed. Any human being capable of designing or gaining control of a nuclear bomb is pretty reliably smart and educated enough to realize that it's a really, really dangerous idea to fire it off. As in you risk the lives of everyone you've ever known or cared for dangerous. Whereas literally any mage can give themselves over to a demon on a bad day no matter how dumb, ignorant, enlightened or malicious they are, and even someone so insane that they'd never get the backing of a nation can and have ended the world given the time and freedom to seriously attempt it. We live on an Earth where human beings are 99.99% identical to each other, where the remaining 0.01% is things like skin color and nose sizes and the angle of your eyelids, so we have the luxury of being able to consider the idea of segregation and differential treatment inherently wrong and unjustifiable. Thedas just plain isn't so fortunate.
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Post by Rascoth on Sept 20, 2020 16:45:37 GMT
Ahem. Moving on. I hope we actually get to explore and experience Minrathous unlike the disappointment that was Val Royeaux. While Minrathous is on top of my list, at this point I'd be happy with any big city, as long as it's not next Val Royeaux situation.
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Post by Catilina on Sept 20, 2020 16:46:46 GMT
It's certainly better than nothing, but it's 'better than nothing' in a world that has facilitated things being how they are. It's a vicious circle of abuse, IMO, and the fact that one thinks of magic as 'machine guns for arms' instead 'this mage could help our crops grow better' or 'this mage could help my children survive an illness' is a world in which approach to magic is problematic more than magic itself. And yes, individual mages can be far more dangerous to a group of people than a non-mage rando (unless that rando finds a magic artifact... or starts producing gunpowder, like Qunari do), but in Thedas not all tragedies and cataclysms are caused by mage-wielders, but quite often by conventional armies or oppressive systems that either have little to do with magic (slavery, racism, classism) or will justify using magic on others while pretending it isn't really one (Templars, Seekers, phylacteries). It's also lack of nuance and treating people like they're dangerous weapons that has been pointed out in the story multiple times to result in mages being conditioned to basically engage in self-fulfilling prophecy where they become dangerous weapons *because* they have been treated as such - never mind that a completely skewed understanding of magic and the Fade makes even mages have a very lopsided view on it, be it as a source of danger or power. Like, those magic cataclysms didn't happen in a vacuum. We exist in a world where magic ain't a thing, yet people use technology to cause cataclysms and we're so advanced now we can cause them on a global scale. We don't outright ban technology just because it gave us nukes or biological weapons, or has caused global warming - that stems from shortcomings in human character, the short-sightedness and seeing things in relation to power it can give, rather than progress and prosperity it can provide. So yea, while I agree that the Circle is a solution that is better than nothing, it's sort 'nothing' that is in large part caused by systems built within society to see virtually no other solution (other than downright elimination) and thus is an adequate fictional case-study for demonstrating how oppressive systems are formed, or how they work to make things how they are or how they are perceived, etc. Like... Wynne or Minaeve are excellent examples of people who find refuge in the Circle, but that's mostly because the Chantry has made the populace (and mages themselves) so afraid of magic they don't feel safe anywhere else. From my perspective, this is a decent, nuanced type of writing I like in Dragon Age. I wouldn't say that at all. Between the issues caused by mages being mistreated, and the issues caused by mages having had free reign, Thedas is suffering FAR more from the latter than the former, even a thousand years down the line. Like, it's not even close. You could have every single mage in the world healing children non-stop every day of their lives, and it still wouldn't begin to make up for any two of the Blights. And all five Blights combined don't come anywhere near the number of casualties actually caused by mages messing with things just because they had the power to. Treating magic and mages as generally too dangerous to exist freely is totally fair and reasonable for the average Thedasian going by modern history alone, even after the mage-templar war. No self-propagating religious or governmental fearmongering necessary, thank you very much. The practice is reliably saving way more lives than it's ruining. That it could ruin fewer lives by being more efficient and practical is unquestionable, and that needs to be worked on, but I don't see that any of the fear directed at mages is false or unjust in the slightest. Nor would yours be if a subset of the population had accidentally swallowed bombs packing various degrees of ordinance from hand-grenade to nuclear detonation and above that might or might not go off at moments of emotional distress, and you were forced to exist in a society with them. And the comparison to science is inherently flawed. Any human being capable of designing or gaining control of a nuclear bomb is pretty reliably smart and educated enough to realize that it's a really, really dangerous idea to fire it off. As in you risk the lives of everyone you've ever known or cared for dangerous. Whereas literally any mage can give themselves over to a demon on a bad day no matter how dumb, ignorant, enlightened or malicious they are, and even someone so insane that they'd never get the backing of a nation can and have ended the world given the time and freedom to seriously attempt it. We live on an Earth where human beings are 99.99% identical to each other, where the remaining 0.01% is things like skin color and nose sizes and the angle of your eyelids, so we have the luxury of being able to consider the idea of segregation and differential treatment inherently wrong and unjustifiable. Thedas just plain isn't so fortunate. This whole you wrote here simply wrong thinking.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Sept 20, 2020 16:51:30 GMT
Ahem. Moving on. I hope we actually get to explore and experience Minrathous unlike the disappointment that was Val Royeaux. While Minrathous is on top of my list, at this point I'd be happy with any big city, as long as it's not next Val Royeaux situation. That's why I don't want this game to explore all of Northern Thedas. Just stick to Tevinter, Par Vollen, Seheron, and maybe the Anderfels. People think Antiva and Rivain should be in it too, but that should be next game.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 20, 2020 16:59:15 GMT
Ahem. Moving on. I hope we actually get to explore and experience Minrathous unlike the disappointment that was Val Royeaux. Agreed. Val Royeaux was incredibly disappointing. After we had Denerim, Orzammar, & Kirkwall, it would have been nice to have seen a bit more of some major city culture in DA:I. I really hope that Minrathous or Qarinus/Ventus are places that we can really dig into. If the concept art is to give us a "feel" for the game, it's boding well. A lot of that art showed cityscapes. Both large scale views of a variety of cities, but also vignettes of action happening in multiple locations throughout cities. I really do think that cities will be back in full force in DA4. And I'm happy about it. If I had to guess major locations based on the plot threads and concept art, I'd say that we'll see multiple locations throughout Tevinter (both city and not); Seheron; Weisshaupt and some surrounding areas in the Anderfels; possibly Nevarra City or Cumberland in Nevarra; and possibly Antiva City. My only concerns with this are: it's a lot of geography and I'd like them to save some for future games (all that would be left after this is Par Vollan, Kal Sharok, and Rivain) without having to revisit locations; and the more locations they add in a specific game, the less detail each location will get. DA:O was great and it was a single country. We don't need to globetrot in games. I'd rather deep lore building across a narrow set of locations than the reverse. What would I like to see? Tevinter, Seheron, Kal Sharok, & maybe the Anderfels. Save everything else for future games please!
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Post by Buckeldemon on Sept 20, 2020 17:49:59 GMT
Not sure what you mean by Templars being whitewashed. It's pretty clear the order was formed with good intentionThat's quite debateable. The old Inquisition is said to have been busy hunting "blood mages, abominations, cultist and heretics". I wonder who would qualify for the latter two. Then we had Drakon's Chantry make up the Nevarran accord to bring the Inquisition into the fold as their military arm, splitting it into templars and SoT's. Now I honestly wonder what happenend to the mages of the Inquisition at that point. My guess: they were put into the newly formed circles. An exercise in "build-your-own-prison". If they were involved in the decisions, that is. It's the same with mages - regardless how awful Tevinter may be with their magocracy, it doesn't justify persecuting and locking mages in Circles on the South.Anyway... I'll likely start with my 'default' which is a mobile elf or human mage with range attacks. And if we'd get a magicka archer I'd immediately go for that. I'd argue (for the umpteenth time) that the mages aren't being locked up or persecuted specifically as punishment for the Tevinters' actions, but rather because they have enormous destructive potential which the Tevinters were simply the ones to demonstrate the danger of to modern Thedas. Which isn't quite the same thing. But I entirely agree with what you're saying in spirit. That insistent black-and-white categorical thinking about factions and races seems like a recipe for disaster all on its own, even aside from being completely irrational. I think it's a weird perversion of the idea of victim-blaming, which specifically refers to the perpetrator of a crime being forgiven while the victim is held responsible. Holding both the victim and the perpetrator responsible for their own mistakes for the purposes of preventing future crimes isn't the same thing at all, but because victim-blaming is such a hated notion a lot of people just can't stand the victim in any situation being held to account for any kind of stupidity or malice of their own. You know that people don't need to agree with your notions right? If that would be necessary, I would not be posting here anymore. Generally speaking, I do kinda find it disturbing to generalise it to a point that the victim always holds some degree of blame in a crime. and Sarkmek...yes I know I butchered that Just this bit... but I hope that kind of butchering suceeded. Interesting point and I cannot say you are wrong but then Orlais not existing sounds a bit...genocidal? Empire=/=State=/=people. One could also make a point that Orlais was the result of cultural genocide of the Ciriane culture, as Drakon bludgeoned them with the Maker until they
either died or joined him.
I'm still confused. The Dalish have forgotten they were ever the equiv of the Roman Empire, so they are hardly frustrated imperials. they are kinda the exception to the general rule even then they do know enough to pine for the days of Arlathan. Even if they get the facts wrong.Well, not their fault. *shrugs* First, we have some left-over Evanuris propaganda and then we have two confirmed periods of slavery and at least one instance of deliberate large-scaled attempts at destroying knowledge. Now what? BioWare is constantly bending over backwards to try and make the genocide of non-humans and mages and "barbarians" seem justified, and to make the perpetrators of these crimes (like Celene and Meredith) seem sympathetic. Because they have foolishly committed to some ridiculous notion of "moral ambiguity". I feel like this statement is a complete fundamental refusal to accept how conflict works. You understand that just because someone played a part in the escalation of a disaster doesn't make them equally as responsible as anybody else, don't you? Let's say you were shown a video of me ribbing and annoying some guy I'd never met for no reason except because I was bored and frustrated and wanted to take it out on him, and the guy drew a handgun and shot me down on the spot because he was dead drunk and feeling particularly nihilistic, having just lost a friend or loved one. Would anyone sensible say that me being a bit of an asshole to him somehow made me equally as responsible for my murder as the man who pointed a gun at me and pulled the trigger? No. I would be an asshole, and he would be a murderer. Me being an asshole wouldn't make him any less of a murderer, and him being a murderer shouldn't make me any less of an asshole. Your example is pretty elaborate, but appears to be lacking. The other guy in your example had a vase he liked a lot, but someone broke it and he tries to piece it together as best as he can. "You" in that example specifically don't like that vase, because you believe yours is inherently better and you move over to that guy to intentionally break his. It is not just that "you" are bored and annoyed, there's intent. I'd also like to know what brings you to assign the "drunk" part to the elf stand-in.
Is it within the realms of possiblity for you to write a post vaguely touching on social issues that does not ooze of utter arrogance and insult of other's mental capabilities?
.I don't read.over every codex, bUt I thought she was hunting things in the Fade world that drove her insane. Also her own people (ancient elvs), for sure. That was after she grew tired of hunting mortals, at the start of the Elven God Andruil codex in DAI (found in Wild Arbor): One day Andruil grew tired of hunting mortal men and beasts. She began stalking The Forgotten Ones, wicked things that thrive in the abyss. That's the friggin' issue with apparently like of old-sounding english to use "men" for males or humans or just beings of higher intelligence. It never ceases to confuse me. Seems to me that the Dalish pine for Arlathan, for having a home and a government and borders to feel safe behind, and I don't think there's anything frustrated imperialist about it. It'd be another matter entirely if they had a clearer idea of their Elvhenan history and pined for that. But there's absolutely still an undercurrent of anger and resentment and hunger for vengeance that goes beyond the rational or moral, at least for the younger Dalish. Remember that the very first scene of any given Dragon Age playthrough can be two Dalish hunters casually murdering three guys just for catching them taking a walk in the forest, without fearing any kind of consequences to themselves. With Duncan's narration cheerfully pointing out that hey, this happens. Try to put yourself into the shoes of the Dalish for a moment, regardless of Tamlem's attitudes. That situation is a shit choice for the Dalish duo regardless what they do. One of the humans pulls "you have no right" towards the Dalish. Which might be true, but in that situation rather irrelevant, given he is not the one with the bows in a world that embraces might-makes-right. Oh, and that Dalish are outlaws for having the wrond beliefs anyway. You got three choices: - Kill them all. They cannot tell anyone, but might be missed and someone comes looking for them, assumes that "of course it was them knife-ears". - Kill one. That might intimidate the rest sufficiently. It might might also make them vengeful enough to bring a mod. - Let them all leave. That might keep them away out of gratitude. They might also flip back and gather a mob due to damaged ego "How did those knife-ears dare?". Sounds pretty gloomy? Well, if Velanna's backstory ins any indication, some humans are willing to burn down a whole forest as to keep the elves away from their farms. Oh, and Mahariel and Tamlen long to bring something back to their clan, so they perhaps do not take kindly of a bunch of adventurers combing through elven stuff.
Yea, I know that there are many people who have issues with understanding nuance or context when it comes tu stuff like victim blaming (and in quite a few respects they DO...but it would ruin their narrative about certain issues or situations), but I think most of us have enough braincells to rub together and put things in proper perspective. I do think however that insisting on making the victims peerless and oppressors irredeemable is backfiring spectacularly in it that it invites the very binary thinking we should avoid... I mean, if people insist Dragon Age should teach or show people something (that is also applicable to IRL situations), then they may as well make situations like this nuanced and NOT participate in unwittingly propagating black-and-white mentality that ultimately hurts many victims and helps absolve perpetrators. Hoh, that's pretty... arrogant? And since you put it forward, I'll also quickly point out that the just punishment for three cold-blooded murders is generally considered worse than a few hard words from your elder. Eh, in Thedas there is no justice when it comes to anything that involves elves. There might be laws who technically could apply to any citizen (do City elves have these rights?), but it is plenty clear that they are not applied when it comes to violence against elves (see Aveline and that pair of city elves in DA2's ActII fnale). I also remenber vaguely that defending an elf against a human is illegal in Ferelden.I think they write stories this way because they are dumb. Then...why are you here? I would not phrase it as Panda did, I would say Bioware is merely ignorant at times, perhaps unintentionally. That still does not mean one should not call them out on it, even if one likes DA as a whole. As I said, I'm talking for myself. is whole you wrote here simply wrong thinking. Don't bother. That doesn't lead anywhere. I have given up trying to talk with Noxluxe about anything mage-related after he called paranoid for not wanting andrastian priests (read: advocates of mage-hating beliefs based on the interpretation of an incredibly vague Chant verse) and "we have dominance over mages by divine right" guys responsible for any potential policing of magic. Also, argument with logic and reason and then advocating fear doesn't really add up to me. These arguments about how this side is better than that side and how introducing new facts and perspectives is mitigating crimes to me shows many people aren’t getting the point and are actually falling into the same trap of blaming the group for actions of individuals. It totally depends what the intention between these perspectives is supposed to be. What do you think is the intention behind Minaeve's backstory? Besides, and this is not adressed at you (alone), did I ever accused anyone of "not getting the point" yet?
Thanks for the perspective.
I mean, I'm just as privileged as any other white european, but what I find odd is that a lot of people just like to default to the "white euro-christian" side of things, i.e. andrastian humans (going as far as using "we" when referring to the latter in contrast to either elves or the Qun ) without even making an attempt to undertand anyone outside of that. Heck, I might sound like a white saviour cliché right now.
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Post by midnight tea on Sept 20, 2020 18:20:06 GMT
Yea, I know that there are many people who have issues with understanding nuance or context when it comes tu stuff like victim blaming (and in quite a few respects they DO...but it would ruin their narrative about certain issues or situations), but I think most of us have enough braincells to rub together and put things in proper perspective. I do think however that insisting on making the victims peerless and oppressors irredeemable is backfiring spectacularly in it that it invites the very binary thinking we should avoid... I mean, if people insist Dragon Age should teach or show people something (that is also applicable to IRL situations), then they may as well make situations like this nuanced and NOT participate in unwittingly propagating black-and-white mentality that ultimately hurts many victims and helps absolve perpetrators. Hoh, that's pretty... arrogant? You may have to enlighten me as to why you find my statement arrogant.
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
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Post by Noxluxe on Sept 20, 2020 18:36:14 GMT
1) You know that people don't need to agree with your notions right? If that would be necessary, I would not be posting here anymore. 2) Generally speaking, I do kinda find it disturbing to generalise it to a point that the victim always holds some degree of blame in a crime. Your example is pretty elaborate, but appears to be lacking. The other guy in your example had a vase he liked a lot, but someone broke it and he tries to piece it together as best as he can. "You" in that example specifically don't like that vase, because you believe yours is inherently better and you move over to that guy to intentionally break his. 3) Is it within the realms of possiblity for you to write a post vaguely touching on social issues that does not ooze of utter arrogance and insult of other's mental capabilities?
4) Try to put yourself into the shoes of the Dalish for a moment, regardless of Tamlem's attitudes. That situation is a shit choice for the Dalish duo regardless what they do. One of the humans pulls "you have no right" towards the Dalish. Which might be true, but in that situation rather irrelevant, given he is not the one with the bows in a world that embraces might-makes-right. Oh, and that Dalish are outlaws for having the wrond beliefs anyway. You got three choices: - Kill them all. They cannot tell anyone, but might be missed and someone comes looking for them, assumes that "of course it was them knife-ears". - Kill one. That might intimidate the rest sufficiently. It might might also make them vengeful enough to bring a mod. - Let them all leave. That might keep them away out of gratitude. They might also flip back and gather a mob due to damaged ego "How did those knife-ears dare?". 5) Sounds pretty gloomy? Well, if Velanna's backstory ins any indication, some humans are willing to burn down a whole forest as to keep the elves away from their farms. Oh, and Mahariel and Tamlen long to bring something back to their clan, so they perhaps do not take kindly of a bunch of adventurers combing through elven stuff.
6) Eh, in Thedas there is no justice when it comes to anything that involves elves. There might be laws who technically could apply to any citizen (do City elves have these rights?), but it is plenty clear that they are not applied when it comes to violence against elves (see Aveline and that pair of city elves in DA2's ActII fnale). I also remenber vaguely that defending an elf against a human is illegal in Ferelden.
Jesus Christ. You either love compiling your posts or you don't give a shit about the people who have to disentangle them in order to respond. 1) What did I say that made you imagine that I think people need to agree with me? 2) And when did I ever say that the victim always holds some degree of blame in a crime? For one thing I use the word 'responsibility', not 'blame', and at worst I only think it's usually the case. The example I gave was just to make it clear what I mean about shared but specifically not equal responsibility for an incident, and certainly for our own behavior, not some ridiculous attempt to cook all crime down into one metaphor. 3) It has been known to happen, yes. Though generally not when responding to someone dripping of their own arrogance and insulting others' mental capabilities themselves, such as was the case in this instance. As I specifically pointed out. 4) I might entirely agree, except that Tamlen's attitude is specifically what my point was about. If you don't inexplicably disregard it then it's obvious that none of those factors are the actual deciding ones. His (and potentially your) momentary lust for blood is. You both know that you'll move camp regardless, and much quicker than the humans can raise a mob and locate it. Tamlen certainly acts like he's confident enough of that. Meaning that those concerns about the camp's safety are just rationalizations for getting to kill three people you ran into in the woods, which is evidence of at least some hateful and murderous tendencies within the Dalish youth. 5) When did I ever say that humans aren't perfectly capable of pointless violence and cruelty as well? 6) So? My point is that elves are just as capable of random hateful murder as humans, and that that fact doesn't do anything to justify the elves' treatment by the humans, and that the humans' treatment of the elves also doesn't justify random hateful murder on humans. How exactly is the specific lack of value humans put in elven lives relevant to the validity of that point? We were specifically talking about the objective morality of the world, not roleplaying.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Sept 20, 2020 18:42:38 GMT
These arguments about how this side is better than that side and how introducing new facts and perspectives is mitigating crimes to me shows many people aren’t getting the point and are actually falling into the same trap of blaming the group for actions of individuals. It totally depends what the intention between these perspectives is supposed to be. What do you think is the intention behind Minaeve's backstory? Besides, and this is not adressed at you (alone), did I ever accused anyone of "not getting the point" yet? Well with Minaeve's backstory, the intention I think is to show that the Dalish aren't this monolithic group that they seem to be made into, but each clan is different. As a Dalish Inquisitor, you can even comment that your clan doesn't do that practice. I never said you did. I was saying that these arguments about how "This side is worse than that side" in these posts is the same as in the universe, missing what I think the point Bioware is trying to make is which is the dangers of tribalism. If one person of a group does something, the other thinks all members of that person's group are like that sparking a cycle of hatred through tribalism. Pretty much every villain in the series exemplifies this. Loghain with Orlais, Arishok with Bas, Anders with the Chantry, Meredith with Mages, Viddasala with the Inquisition and Fen'Harel, etc. Meanwhile many of the companions serve to show that these generalizations aren't the case. They aren't exceptions to the rule, they are examples how a group is just a bunch of individuals and each individual is different. They aren't monoliths to all be put in the same category.
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Post by colfoley on Sept 20, 2020 18:42:38 GMT
Noxluxe Forgive me if I have lost the strand of the debate, but weren't you justifying the elves having aggression done against them because they themselves are violent? Who shot first in this ear of elves against humans of it continues? But it doesn't stop the elves from having been the natives (or at least, go natives with dwarves) and the humans coming into their space. It doesn't stop the truth that there have been thousands of years of violence between the two races. I don't condone it, but neither am I surprised that the couple of aggressive male teenagers in the group lacked the wisdom to see beyond their immediate desire to take out a very possible threat to their families in the immediate vicinity to their clan. If you DO shoot the humans, the wise keeper leader chews you out for it, so calmer elven minds ARE against such actions. So it seems to me you are using an Origin backstory to justify painting an entire race as violent while simultaneously ignoring that the humans have been just as violent. Both sides of this are ugly. And if the humans were the minority fighting for a space in a territory that used to be theirs, such as the Fog Warriors pushing back against the Qunari in Seheron, we would look at them as Freedom Fighters. But no, the minority elves doing exactly the same are what? Frustrated imperialists? Pathetic for trying to hang onto their culture and beliefs? Wtf people. Uhm. No, I wasn't. I never said anything to the effect of any of those things. I've specifically been arguing the exact opposite, that elves (or anyone) occasionally being jerks doesn't lessen what has been done to them, and that what has been done to them also doesn't lessen the times they've occasionally been jerks. If you've somehow spun that around to meaning that one atrocity automatically justifies another then you're clearly putting words in my mouth. And since you put it forward, I'll also quickly point out that the just punishment for three cold-blooded murders is generally considered worse than a few hard words from your elder. But I never said that the Dalish as a people show general approval for the pointless killing of shemlen, let alone that humans haven't been at least as bad. Don't know where you get that from either. And Tamlen's behavior certainly doesn't suggest that he's gambling with the safety of his people if you decide to let the scavengers go. He's very obviously itching to kill them just for his own satisfaction, as can you be, and he'll blow you off if you suggest that there's anything wrong with it. That's an angry young man taking the opportunity to use 'acceptable targets' as scapegoats for his frustrations, not a protector taking necessary steps to defend his loved ones. Seems to me that you have, as you say, pretty much lost the strand of the debate. And I forgive you, since you ask for it, though I feel a little hurt at being taken this far out of context. But you're obviously taking the discussion a lot more personally than I thought you were going to, so I'm sorry if my phrasing seems offensive even though I don't see that it should be. Can't speak for colfoley . As I said I don't agree with his assessment of the Dalish, though I can see why he might have gotten the impression he has. Or at least why the words 'frustrated imperialist' came to mind, given the Elves' early history which nonetheless seems only barely relevant to modern Dalish culture. yeah my frustrated imperialists has also been taken out of context. I was talking about people more like Corypheus then the Dalish. Edit: really the more I think about it the more i realize this specifically does not refer to the Dalish actually.
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
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Post by Noxluxe on Sept 20, 2020 18:48:26 GMT
yeah my frustrated imperialists has also been taken out of context. I was talking about people more like Corypheus then the Dalish. Edit: really the more I think about it the more i realize this specifically does not refer to the Dalish actually. Sounds completely fair then. Don't bother. That doesn't lead anywhere. I have given up trying to talk with Noxluxe about anything mage-related after he called paranoid for not wanting andrastian priests (read: advocates of mage-hating beliefs based on the interpretation of an incredibly vague Chant verse) and "we have dominance over mages by divine right" guys responsible for any potential policing of magic. Also, argument with logic and reason and then advocating fear doesn't really add up to me. Assuming that your fear of falling to your death successfully keeps you from exiting your house every day through the first-floor window, and your fear of injury keeps you from antagonizing angry, drunk and armed people, and that fear of embarrassment and vulnerability keeps you from walking around naked and catching ten times the colds in a year, I'm very curious why exactly you think fear has no possible place in a reasonable discussion and course of action. Mages are, on the whole, dangerous to people. Therefore people should sensibly be afraid of them, spurring them to minimize the risk and therefore the danger and therefore the fear to whatever extent they realistically can. People being duped into ignoring that fear by liars who pretend that mages aren't dangerous in spite of the mountains of corpses as evidence is insane and unreasonable. It's like going around arguing that seat belts are actually unsafe because you're much more likely to make it if you're 'thrown clear'. Statistically totally wrong, and dangerous for people to start believing. Don't know about you, but I treat people more carefully if they're holding a hunting rifle than I do if they're not. Nothing unfair or dehumanizing about that. If they could call down a tornado of fire to roast the entire neighborhood or start turning my loved ones into zombies on a whim, I'd be a mite more than just careful. Nothing unfair or dehumanizing about that either. And the reason I called you paranoid, if you remember, was because you abjectly refused the idea of qualified and mild-mannered priestesses as social support for the mages, specifically because they're the closest thing these people are going to get to therapists. And your counterargument, if I remember, essentially just boiled down to "no religion bad".
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Post by Grog Muffins on Sept 20, 2020 19:18:36 GMT
Eh, was that "muddling" of the Dales (not talking about the Evanuris here) or the templar whitewashing really necesary though? Everyone who played "Nature of the Beast" knows that elves can be assholes. Why not? It was already clear that relations were strained between humans and elves. Is it any surprise that a major conflict like the Exalted March on the Dales arose from such a misunderstand brought about by it? Well, kind of? Orlais didn't want to get back at the elves for the attack on Red Crossing, not really. If that was all they wanted, they could have sent the normal Orlesian army to fight it out with the elves. They instead asked for an army of ALL the faithful from around the entirety of Thedas to go against the elves. The only reason Orlais was the only country to provide troops, I'm guessing, was that the rest of the countries understood that what Orlais was doing was overkill. They wanted to prove a religious point and used Red Crossing as an excuse. Sure, the elves were isolationists and murdered an innocent woman, but the historical context of centuries of slavery of one cultural genocide being followed by another one when the elves just wanted to rebuild their society can't be ignored.
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Post by phoray on Sept 20, 2020 19:19:37 GMT
nd it still wouldn't begin to make up for any two of the Blights. Only the Chantry says the Blights were caused by Modern Mages. (in the sense that since the creation of Tevinter is modern) A lot of lore reveals lately have actually indicated something more Titan and Elfy related. That's why I don't want this game to explore all of Northern Thedas. Just stick to Tevinter, Par Vollen, Seheron, and maybe the Anderfels. People think Antiva and Rivain should be in it too, but that should be next game. Tevinter, Seheron, Weishaupt, and Antiva considering all the crow artwork. Nevarra is technically geographically close, so they may play a part. I think being able to get as far as PAr Vollen, considering it's a Qunari stronghold (my gist) is a bit far for any of us to go. If we saved it and Rivain, which are close to each other geographically, it would seem almost a small DA5 game. But I'm not holding my breath for DA5. I want them to wrap up everything of importance in DA4 in case it fails or simply because I think DA5 should really break into a new place on the planet. Weishaupt is a gigantic but mostly empty castle fort, unless something has changed. So it doesn't really take up the same spot in resource consumption as a real city would have. So I've expect/hope to see 5 major cities and 5 bigger maps less full of people: - Minrathous,Tevinter
- Seheron, Seheron
- Antiva City, Antiva
- Nevarra City, Nevarra
- Dairsmuid, Rivain (as a possibility)
- Weishaupt, Anderfells (all the desert we need to see)
- Arlathan
- Crossroads place
- 100% Fade Place
- 100% Dwarfy Place, cuz we need some dwarf love. (ambassadoria is more of an extension of Minrathous, so I'd rather Kal Sharok)
(real imaginiative names they got going there for the biggest cities.).The only drawback of Nevarra is that it would cut out my "our sea ship is a base of operations" hopes. We would at least have to temporarily abandon said boat to go there, unless we somehow finangle an eluvian onto our boat. ... looking at the map more, I am a bit confused as to whether Antiva has any real estate along the Venefication sea *clicks around* it technically does, but all of it's named cities are along the Rialto Bay area. So if we have a boat as a our base of operations, I wonder how they could remove Rivain. So lets see how many full blown major map locations we got in Inquisition, not including DLC - Redcliffe and the Hinterlands with an town and an abandoned fort and some ruins and an old thaig underneath
- Mythal's temple and the Arbor Wilds
- Crestwood, the town of crestwood, old crestwood, underground caverns, and a fort
- Exalted Plains and Orlesian war ruins and a Dalish Clan and that lost to time Red Crossing thing. and a Swamp full of creatures.
- Emerald Graves (drawing a blank. There was a resistance group and rhinos with endless guard and a haunted chateau?)
- Storm Coast and a cult and ...water
- Emprise Du Lion and Sarhnia
- Fallow Mire had a dead village and a ruined fort
- Western Approach: The hot desert place with Grey Warden forts and an old but large elven ruin
- Hissing Wastes: the nighttime desert place that has um... Dwarven ruins
- Forbidden Oasis: That other hot desert place that you brought all those shards to.
That's 11 major maps. this doesn't count the additional locations like Haven, Skyhold, The Winter Palace was quite extensive, Val Royeous, Black Emporium, and places we went for resolution of companion side quests as well as several small maps within the bigger maps I didn't mention and/or recall. Oh yeah, the Nightmare Fade map was pretty huge.
I don't think it's impossible to do all of these places justice. you just gotta make them count in the sort of way DA2 made places count. We won't need to go to some random orlesian noble's castle to resolve a quest, because surely there is space available in one of these major cities to allow the event of the Fate of the Seekers Resolution. Just as Cole resolved his human/spirit quest in the Hinterlands.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Sept 20, 2020 19:26:08 GMT
That's why I don't want this game to explore all of Northern Thedas. Just stick to Tevinter, Par Vollen, Seheron, and maybe the Anderfels. People think Antiva and Rivain should be in it too, but that should be next game. Tevinter, Seheron, Weishaupt, and Antiva considering all the crow artwork. Nevarra is technically geographically close, so they may play a part. I think being able to get as far as PAr Vollen, considering it's a Qunari stronghold (my gist) is a bit far for any of us to go. If we saved it and Rivain, which are close to each other geographically, it would seem almost a small DA5 game. But I'm not holding my breath for DA5. I want them to wrap up everything of importance in DA4 in case it fails or simply because I think DA5 should really break into a new place on the planet. And this is one reason why I think Antiva and Rivain should be left alone until DA5. Both are at the end of the continent and famous for their nautical prowess, meaning they would be a perfect setting for a game that begins exploring the lands beyond Thedas. For example say DA5 had half the game in those two and the other half at the beginnings of a new continent, and then DA6 onwards would be exploring further into those new continents. Meanwhile Par Vollen not being explored in DA4 would be awful, since it's obvious a major plot is the Tevinter-Qun War so we should explore both nations. Also no offense, but your list is exactly what I'm afraid of. For example only one map for all of Antiva, and that one being only it's capital?
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Post by midnight tea on Sept 20, 2020 19:27:39 GMT
It's certainly better than nothing, but it's 'better than nothing' in a world that has facilitated things being how they are. It's a vicious circle of abuse, IMO, and the fact that one thinks of magic as 'machine guns for arms' instead 'this mage could help our crops grow better' or 'this mage could help my children survive an illness' is a world in which approach to magic is problematic more than magic itself.
And yes, individual mages can be far more dangerous to a group of people than a non-mage rando (unless that rando finds a magic artifact... or starts producing gunpowder, like Qunari do), but in Thedas not all tragedies and cataclysms are caused by mage-wielders, but quite often by conventional armies or oppressive systems that either have little to do with magic (slavery, racism, classism) or will justify using magic on others while pretending it isn't really one (Templars, Seekers, phylacteries).
It's also lack of nuance and treating people like they're dangerous weapons that has been pointed out in the story multiple times to result in mages being conditioned to basically engage in self-fulfilling prophecy where they become dangerous weapons *because* they have been treated as such - never mind that a completely skewed understanding of magic and the Fade makes even mages have a very lopsided view on it, be it as a source of danger or power.
Like, those magic cataclysms didn't happen in a vacuum. We exist in a world where magic ain't a thing, yet people use technology to cause cataclysms and we're so advanced now we can cause them on a global scale. We don't outright ban technology just because it gave us nukes or biological weapons, or has caused global warming - that stems from shortcomings in human character, the short-sightedness and seeing things in relation to power it can give, rather than progress and prosperity it can provide.
So yea, while I agree that the Circle is a solution that is better than nothing, it's sort 'nothing' that is in large part caused by systems built within society to see virtually no other solution (other than downright elimination) and thus is an adequate fictional case-study for demonstrating how oppressive systems are formed, or how they work to make things how they are or how they are perceived, etc. Like... Wynne or Minaeve are excellent examples of people who find refuge in the Circle, but that's mostly because the Chantry has made the populace (and mages themselves) so afraid of magic they don't feel safe anywhere else. From my perspective, this is a decent, nuanced type of writing I like in Dragon Age. I wouldn't say that at all. Between the issues caused by mages being mistreated, and the issues caused by mages having had free reign, Thedas is suffering FAR more from the latter than the former, even a thousand years down the line. Like, it's not even close. You could have every single mage in the world healing children non-stop every day of their lives, and it still wouldn't begin to make up for any two of the Blights. And all five Blights combined don't come anywhere near the number of casualties actually caused by mages messing with things just because they had the power to. Treating magic and mages as generally too dangerous to exist freely is totally fair and reasonable for the average Thedasian going by modern history alone, even after the mage-templar war. No self-propagating religious or governmental fearmongering necessary, thank you very much. The practice is reliably saving way more lives than it's ruining. That it could ruin fewer lives by being more efficient and practical is unquestionable, and that needs to be worked on, but I don't see that any of the fear directed at mages is false or unjust in the slightest. Nor would yours be if a subset of the population had accidentally swallowed bombs packing various degrees of ordinance from hand-grenade to nuclear detonation and above that might or might not go off at moments of emotional distress, and you were forced to exist in a society with them. In fact, people aren't even as afraid as they should be, because they don't even know about the worst magical atrocities and disasters that have either already happened or just barely didn't. While I agree with part of what you're saying your argument would have more merit... if magic was as separate from the world as modern Thedosians think it is (thanks to the Veil) OR something people were able to switch on and off. It isn't. It's an integral part of their world that they have to live with. They can learn to control it, like forces of nature we can have a measure of control of via technology, but even pushing most of it away - like Solas appears to have done - doesn't eliminate it. The only full elimination (on individual basis at least) that is known so far is a process that cuts people from both magic AND emotions (Tranquility) basically providing strong evidence that the Fade and magic are INTRINSIC to even non-mage beings. According to Cole, Fade doesn't exist without people and it seems that people can't exist without Fade, given that it appears to be a source of their spirits and emotions. We even have basically a confirmation from Solas - who knows the Fade quite well - that it's the abundance of bad sentiment and fear, including that of non-mages, that cause abundance of misshpan spirits and notable lack of spirits embodying better qualities (samples: banter with Cassandra about existence of hunger demons or his banters with Cole) and thus far more opportunities for vulnerable mages to be prey to demons. In other words, while on surface level for many Thedosians mages and magic means bad things, those bad things happen not just because a rando mage can be possessed in a moment of weakness, but the whole culture of fear and ignorance around the nature of Fade and magic. Nnnnnnnot really. First, scientists are human beings too and they can be flawed or blinded to ramifications of their discoveries up until it's too late OR they work for systems or people that either don't care or don't grasp many things from ethical standpoints... or find ways to justify their actions (I have a feeling Solas may have been one of such scientisis/scholars). We know this from our own history. Bombs WERE fired or are used both as a deterrent AND a threat to blackmail others, or make others back off from doing something about abhorrent violations of human rights. Nuclear reactors have melted due to breathtaking incompetence paired with either disregard or ignorance of known risk or safety norms. And, for example, Andrei Sakharov (basically forced to participate in Soviet nuclear program at gunpoint) only became a vocal opponent of building nuclear weapons after bombs based on discoveries and technologies he's developed caused first causalities and after Tsar bomba (which had its yield halved) has literally fried Severny and ignited all living beings 100km from center of explosion. Sakharov has been basically pushed away into irrelevance and hounded by the very system he has previously worked for (not necessarily fully willingly) AFTER they've made him develop technology for them that they were neither properly educated/smart to wield OR have thought they can control, OR were too short-sighted to understand ramifications. Aral Sea is another verifiable catastrophe caused by people who thought they know better, not that different to how the Sidereal Magisters knew better than anyone what they're doing when they have found a way (effectively: magical technology) to travel to the Black City and release the Blight (which may be something natural, but may as well be a mutated result of some sort of magical experiments). Also... the fact that Thedosians didn't yet reach the level conventional, non-magic technology to the level we have IRL on Earth doesn't mean atrocities caused by developing technology won't rival those of the Blight, because *we know* they can... I mean, in a sense they may never have wholly conventional, non-magic technology only in a sense that magic IS part of their world and their devices will always use magic or forces that don't exist here (somehow I doubt we are heading towards purging magic from Thedas). I mean... whether it's magic knowledge or technology or conventional technology... it's still technology. The way I see it, Elvenhan appears to be more similar to the world we inhabit today than modern Thedas is - we may not be immortal like elves are, but we live longer now than our ancestors and our technology appears more similar to theirs - quick modes of transportation, instant global connectivity thanks to Internet resembling Fade in a way, large population increasingly moving to live in big cities placed in far flung corners, etc. To quote Clarke, 'any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic' and our forefathers would consider our civilization as magical stuff of legends far surpassing puny notions of Atlantis or Lemuria. Elvenhan to me shapes itself not as a cautionary tale on the perilous nature of an exotic power like magic, but cautionary tale for a civilization much like ours - one that has achieved power to destroy itself, and has likely been destroyed after a small group of individuals has amassed too much power in their hands (and people have realized it and have tried to do something about it a tad too late), which is a risk we know very well from our world. Elves are US in this regard. It appears to be an artificial state of being - there is a properly fleshed out theory that Solas aims to return magic to all and 'everyone will be how they were' according to certain prophecy. Also, no... we are not wholly identical to one another in a sense that not all of us have access to many opportunities and technology that other can to, say, extend life expectancy, alleviate health issues, neutralize disabilities or have access to tools that are not easily available to others. We are also at the cusp of an extremely dangerous time when those with resources would be able to further augment themselves technologically, or genetically, or have access to increasingly better living conditions and tools (or even effing AIR... it's been proven that increased CO2 in the atmosphere slows down thinking... holy hell, Spaceballs may turn out to be prophetic movie ahead of its time ), while some others may be condemned to faultier devices or dangerous modifications that will open them to similar ostracism or persecution IF we don't do anything about massive economic and social disparities still plaguing the world. Even with COVID - people who went through the disease are often finding themselves ostracized, and it's not fully unwarranted, because some people are - for some reason that isn't dependent on them - super-spreaders of the virus and can be contagious for as long as several months. So, while we don't have magic as a force that influences our lives ourselves, magic is still basically a stand-in for many things we ourselves deal with IRL.
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Post by phoray on Sept 20, 2020 19:28:54 GMT
Tevinter, Seheron, Weishaupt, and Antiva considering all the crow artwork. Nevarra is technically geographically close, so they may play a part. I think being able to get as far as PAr Vollen, considering it's a Qunari stronghold (my gist) is a bit far for any of us to go. If we saved it and Rivain, which are close to each other geographically, it would seem almost a small DA5 game. But I'm not holding my breath for DA5. I want them to wrap up everything of importance in DA4 in case it fails or simply because I think DA5 should really break into a new place on the planet. And this is one reason why I think Antiva and Rivain should be left alone until DA5. Both are at the end of the continent and famous for their nautical prowess, meaning they would be a perfect setting for a game that begins exploring the lands beyond Thedas. For example say DA5 had half the game in those two and the other half at the beginnings of a new continent, and then DA6 onwards would be exploring further into those new continents. Meanwhile Par Vollen not being explored in DA4 would be awful, since it's obvious a major plot is the Tevinter-Qun War so we should explore both nations. For someone who isn't even sure they'll play DA4 when it comes out, you seem to be completely banking on them not failing and going on to make a DA5 and DA6. And I'm saying as someone who will DEFINITELY play DA4 that I am pretty 50/50 on there being another game after it. So I want all the places that are in proper Thedas to have been visited that is within reasonable connection. As it is, you've reduced two of the locations. Assuming my list is accurate (which it totally isn't, but humor me) what cities would you replace the antivan and rivaini ones with?
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Sept 20, 2020 19:33:34 GMT
And this is one reason why I think Antiva and Rivain should be left alone until DA5. Both are at the end of the continent and famous for their nautical prowess, meaning they would be a perfect setting for a game that begins exploring the lands beyond Thedas. For example say DA5 had half the game in those two and the other half at the beginnings of a new continent, and then DA6 onwards would be exploring further into those new continents. Meanwhile Par Vollen not being explored in DA4 would be awful, since it's obvious a major plot is the Tevinter-Qun War so we should explore both nations. For someone who isn't even sure they'll play DA4 when it comes out, you seem to be completely banking on them not failing and going on to make a DA5 and DA6. And I'm saying as someone who will DEFINITELY play DA4 that I am pretty 50/50 on there being another game after it. So I want all the places that are in proper Thedas to have been visited that is within reasonable connection. As it is, you've reduced two of the locations. Assuming my list is accurate (which it totally isn't, but humor me) what cities would you replace the antivan and rivaini ones with? I doubt they will fail hard enough to not make more games. They have yet to have a game that wasn’t a financial success. Because of that, I don’t want everything crammed into one game this not getting the amount of detail they should. I wouldn’t replace them with cities. I’d replace them with other more natural parts of the nations being explored.
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mousestalker
Inactive Moderator
ღ The Untitled
Just here for the cosplay
Staff Mini-Profile Theme: Mousestalker
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
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ღ The Untitled
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Just here for the cosplay
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mousestalker
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
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Post by mousestalker on Sept 20, 2020 19:35:42 GMT
Just an observation.
If Solas is being truthful about which ancient elven god he is, then he is the platonic ideal of an unreliable narrator. As much fun as it is debating Thedas history and politics is (and it is), it behooves all of us to take anything Solas said with a salt mine or two. I'm not saying he lied, but I'm also not saying he didn't.
#PSA #hessexybutheisnttrustworthy #lovinghimwilljustleadtoheartbreak #stillwannabang
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ღ I am a golem. Obviously.
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Post by phoray on Sept 20, 2020 19:38:16 GMT
Hanako IkezawaCome on, build a wish list with me. It's fuuuuun. 1. Minrathous,Tevinter 2. Seheron, Seheron 3. Nevarra City, Nevarra 4. Kal Sharok shall take this City spot. 5. Weishaupt, Anderfells is a pseudo city with surrounding countryside. 6. Arlathan will be like the Emerald Graves with way more elfy stuff all over it. Maybe an abandoned city bigger than Mythal's temple 7. 100% Fade/Crossroads Place So whatcha want? I got 3 spots on my arbitrarily ten spot list.
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Post by smilesja on Sept 20, 2020 19:38:35 GMT
Just an observation. If Solas is being truthful about which ancient elven god he is, then he is the platonic ideal of an unreliable narrator. As much fun as it is debating Thedas history and politics is (and it is), it behooves all of us to take anything Solas said with a salt mine or two. I'm not saying he lied, but I'm also not saying he didn't. #PSA #hessexybutheisnttrustworthy #lovinghimwilljustleadtoheartbreak #stillwannabang I mean we haven't even gotten the rest of the Elvenuris' side and Solas has omitted things from us before.
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