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Post by phoray on Sept 20, 2020 10:27:19 GMT
I'm still confused. The Dalish have forgotten they were ever the equiv of the Roman Empire, so they are hardly frustrated imperials. they are kinda the exception to the general rule even then they do know enough to pine for the days of Arlathan. Even if they get the facts wrong. I don't strongly associate myself as being Native American, even though I am one. But even I can understand the sense of loss when I contemplate the knowledge that we used to roam the entire north american continent. We were accidentally AND very intentionally slaughtered (Tevinter v Dalish). We were very intentionally separated from our parents and sent to boarding schools where we were only allowed to speak English, follow Christianity, and discouraged from.pro creating (Chantry v City elves). And I just in no way see the Dalish as frustrated imperialists and don't know how you can either. Ignorance? Justified rationalization that to the winner goes the spoils? Did you know that when the Native American government asked for aid from the federal government during the height of the pandemic regarding masks and other protective equipment, all they were sent were body bags? What does that say to you? I know what it said to me. And I don't even associate that strongly with that minority. Just food for thoufgt, to delve further would derail the thread.
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Post by Noxluxe on Sept 20, 2020 10:56:32 GMT
BioWare is constantly bending over backwards to try and make the genocide of non-humans and mages and "barbarians" seem justified, and to make the perpetrators of these crimes (like Celene and Meredith) seem sympathetic. Because they have foolishly committed to some ridiculous notion of "moral ambiguity". I feel like this statement is a complete fundamental refusal to accept how conflict works. You understand that just because someone played a part in the escalation of a disaster doesn't make them equally as responsible as anybody else, don't you? Let's say you were shown a video of me ribbing and annoying some guy I'd never met for no reason except because I was bored and frustrated and wanted to take it out on him, and the guy drew a handgun and shot me down on the spot because he was dead drunk and feeling particularly nihilistic, having just lost a friend or loved one. Would anyone sensible say that me being a bit of an asshole to him somehow made me equally as responsible for my murder as the man who pointed a gun at me and pulled the trigger? No. I would be an asshole, and he would be a murderer. Me being an asshole wouldn't make him any less of a murderer, and him being a murderer shouldn't make me any less of an asshole. How the fuck does the elves being portrayed as less than saintly and the Avvars being primitive and warlike and ruthless make anyone who drove either, let alone both, to near-extinction any less genocidal? It sounds like you're completely underestimating other people's ability to keep track of right and wrong, demanding that Bioware paint clear good guys and bad guys for fear of confusing us poor laymen who might get ideas such as 'even genocidal people are still people', and 'victims of genocide are also still people'. Well, please don't concern yourself so much. Most of us are perfectly capable of accepting that a victim can have flaws and still be a victim, and that a perpetrator can have virtues and still be a perpetrator. Since, you know, that's how things tend to work in reality. EDIT: Just in case you actually would say that me being a bit of an asshole would make me equally as culpable for my murder as my actual murderer, please understand that that position is insane, and that others don't share your insanity, so don't worry about Bioware turning our mostly non-insane minds away from thinking that genocide is wrong by painting its victims as human beings. That's just your problem.
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Post by gervaise21 on Sept 20, 2020 11:16:50 GMT
Eh, was that "muddling" of the Dales (not talking about the Evanuris here) or the templar whitewashing really necesary though? Everyone who played "Nature of the Beast" knows that elves can be assholes. Plenty of people thought (and still think) Zathrian was totally justified. Just going to make a point here, whether Zathrian was justified or not, the action was his alone. The rest of his clan were completely unaware of what he had done. Also when the Hahren'al, the Council of Elders at the Arlathvhen, discovered what Zathrian had done, they condemned it as a "crime against nature". They realised his extended life span wasn't to be applauded but condemned because it was unnatural and had been part of the curse he had inflicted by misusing the spirit of the forest. Yes, there are Dalish who can be arseholes but please do not use Zathrian as an example of this. He was an individual who did a terrible act as a result of grief, something that could have been true of any race.
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Post by gervaise21 on Sept 20, 2020 11:27:47 GMT
Interesting point and I cannot say you are wrong but then Orlais not existing sounds a bit...genocidal? The empire of Orlais was founded on genocide. Drakon wiped out every version and cult of Andraste that did not agree with his own and forcibly made all the various clans and tribes of the Cirianne unite under him. If they fought back, he killed them. I've always argued that the Dalish were not wrong in seeing him as "no better than Tevinter" but in thinking that what he was doing did not concern them because it was just between humans. Had they stepped in sooner to help their former allies against Drakon, things might be very different but of course he was crafty and actually wooed the elves into initially supporting him by getting his Divine to include Shartan in their Chant and making friends with influential elves like Ameridan. It was only later they realised what he was really like, hence them saying to Ameridan that he is "no better than Tevinter" but by then it was too late because all the alternative human rulers in the south west were gone. If the Avvar had observed what was going on, it is entirely possible they did think a pre-emptive strike might be a good idea because it was only a matter of time before he turned his attention on them. Naturally, they would do this when he was at his weakest.
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Post by azarhal on Sept 20, 2020 11:28:26 GMT
colfoley The ancient elves never did anything to humans. They didn't exist at the same time. Humans did exist at the same time, just not over "game map". They came from the North and West in immigration waves. And who do you think the mortals Andruil was hunting for sports were?
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Post by gervaise21 on Sept 20, 2020 11:38:50 GMT
Humans did exist at the same time, just not over "game map". They came from the North and West in immigration waves. And who do you think the mortals Andruil was hunting for sports were? This is why I am hoping they are going to get down to the nitty gritty of ancient human civilisation next game. We have had an over abundance of the ancient elves and I say this as someone who used to love elven lore but it has become imbalanced of late. The Tevinter Imperium wasn't by any means the beginning of the human story and I feel we need to know more. Even if the humans hadn't arrive before the fall of the elven empire, which the timeline in the Keep now suggests they did by around 1000 years, there was still a period of around 1600 years from the Veil until the founding of the Imperium. So what was going on then with the humans whilst the majority of the elves were in Uthenera?
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Post by phoray on Sept 20, 2020 12:06:40 GMT
colfoley The ancient elves never did anything to humans. They didn't exist at the same time. Humans did exist at the same time, just not over "game map". They came from the North and West in immigration waves. And who do you think the mortals Andruil was hunting for sports were? .I don't read.over every codex, bUt I thought she was hunting things in the Fade world that drove her insane. Also her own people (ancient elvs), for sure.
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Post by azarhal on Sept 20, 2020 12:50:00 GMT
Humans did exist at the same time, just not over "game map". They came from the North and West in immigration waves. And who do you think the mortals Andruil was hunting for sports were? .I don't read.over every codex, bUt I thought she was hunting things in the Fade world that drove her insane. Also her own people (ancient elvs), for sure. That was after she grew tired of hunting mortals, at the start of the Elven God Andruil codex in DAI (found in Wild Arbor): One day Andruil grew tired of hunting mortal men and beasts. She began stalking The Forgotten Ones, wicked things that thrive in the abyss.
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Post by Noxluxe on Sept 20, 2020 13:29:53 GMT
That was after she grew tired of hunting mortals, at the start of the Elven God Andruil codex in DAI (found in Wild Arbor): One day Andruil grew tired of hunting mortal men and beasts. She began stalking The Forgotten Ones, wicked things that thrive in the abyss.Let's not forget that those codex entries are just recounting legends. The idea that Andruil hunted 'mortal men' could easily be a later amendment to the already existing myth, added after the fact when elven kids who feared humans above everything wouldn't stop interrupting and asking "But where were the shemlen?", forcing the beleaguered storytellers who had no earthly idea to just fit them in where it seemed to make sense. Which isn't to say that it's implausible, based on Solas' comments on the various modern races. If the ancient elves were as much more awake to the world than we are as he implies then there's no reason why they would consider humans much more existentially valuable than beasts.
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Post by gervaise21 on Sept 20, 2020 13:32:12 GMT
One day Andruil grew tired of hunting mortal men and beasts. I have to admit I've always assumed this meant humans. Gisharel admits that his people regarded the early humans as little more than annoying vermin whose lives blinked past in an instant, so this would fit with Andruil lumping them in with beasts on her hunting roster. I would imagine that after a time they didn't present much of a challenge and that is why she switched her attention to the Forgotten Ones. Andruil would seem to embody the spirit of the hunt and so she was compelled to hunt.
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Post by gervaise21 on Sept 20, 2020 13:34:28 GMT
Let's not forget that those codex entries are just recounting legends. The idea that Andruil hunted 'mortal men' could easily be a later amendment to the already existing myth, added after the fact when elven kids who feared humans above everything wouldn't stop interrupting and asking "But where were the shemlen?", forcing the beleaguered storytellers who had no earthly idea to just fit them in where it seemed to make sense The entry was in the Temple of Mythal that had been closed off to outside races, including the Dalish at the time of the Dales, so that would seem to reflect what was known about her by the ancient elves of that time. The Dalish had no legend of her either hunting the Forgotten Ones in the Void or her conflict with Mythal. They just see her as a benign creator god who taught her people how to hunt.
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Post by Rouccoco on Sept 20, 2020 13:37:32 GMT
BioWare is constantly bending over backwards to try and make the genocide of non-humans and mages and "barbarians" seem justified, and to make the perpetrators of these crimes (like Celene and Meredith) seem sympathetic. Because they have foolishly committed to some ridiculous notion of "moral ambiguity". Yes, I just can't wait for Rivain, where we'll discover that the mages in Dairsmuid actually deserved to be genocide’d, because they eat babies or something. The chantry trying to eradicate a culture they don't agree with was actually morally grey, you see!!1!
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Post by Noxluxe on Sept 20, 2020 13:56:40 GMT
The entry was in the Temple of Mythal that had been closed off to outside races, including the Dalish at the time of the Dales, so that would seem to reflect what was known about her by the ancient elves of that time. The Dalish had no legend of her either hunting the Forgotten Ones in the Void or her conflict with Mythal. They just see her as a benign creator god who taught her people how to hunt. Fair enough, if that's true. My bad. I don't strongly associate myself as being Native American, even though I am one. But even I can understand the sense of loss when I contemplate the knowledge that we used to roam the entire north american continent. We were accidentally AND very intentionally slaughtered (Tevinter v Dalish). We were very intentionally separated from our parents and sent to boarding schools where we were only allowed to speak English, follow Christianity, and discouraged from.pro creating (Chantry v City elves). And I just in no way see the Dalish as frustrated imperialists and don't know how you can either. Ignorance? Justified rationalization that to the winner goes the spoils? Did you know that when the Native American government asked for aid from the federal government during the height of the pandemic regarding masks and other protective equipment, all they were sent were body bags? What does that say to you? I know what it said to me. And I don't even associate that strongly with that minority. Just food for thoufgt, to delve further would derail the thread. Seems to me that the Dalish pine for Arlathan, for having a home and a government and borders to feel safe behind, and I don't think there's anything frustrated imperialist about it. It'd be another matter entirely if they had a clearer idea of their Elvhenan history and pined for that. But there's absolutely still an undercurrent of anger and resentment and hunger for vengeance that goes beyond the rational or moral, at least for the younger Dalish. Remember that the very first scene of any given Dragon Age playthrough can be two Dalish hunters casually murdering three guys just for catching them taking a walk in the forest, without fearing any kind of consequences to themselves. With Duncan's narration cheerfully pointing out that hey, this happens. I can't say whether or not that squares with the Native American experience, I've never even been to your continent. But the scene sure isn't pretty.
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Post by midnight tea on Sept 20, 2020 14:04:46 GMT
It's the same with mages - regardless how awful Tevinter may be with their magocracy, it doesn't justify persecuting and locking mages in Circles on the South.Anyway... I'll likely start with my 'default' which is a mobile elf or human mage with range attacks. And if we'd get a magicka archer I'd immediately go for that. I'd argue (for the umpteenth time) that the mages aren't being locked up or persecuted specifically as punishment for the Tevinters' actions, but rather because they have enormous destructive potential which the Tevinters were simply the ones to demonstrate the danger of to modern Thedas. Which isn't quite the same thing. From my perspective pointing at Tevinter and saying 'look, Vints demonstrate the danger of being a mage, this is why we have to persecute you' is not very different from pointing and being like 'look, mages were awful in the past, this is why we have to persecute you'. Because while there exists reasonable caution against power that has turned sideways on its wielders multiple times, and in a perfect world it would be a subject of proper regulations or generally agreed rules, having magic isn't a reason for anyone to be treated as sub-human, just like having magic doesn't automatically makes one an ubermensch (esp. that we don't yet fully know why non-mages are non-mages or why the world is how it is, etc). Yea, I know that there are many people who have issues with understanding nuance or context when it comes tu stuff like victim blaming (and in quite a few respects they DO...but it would ruin their narrative about certain issues or situations), but I think most of us have enough braincells to rub together and put things in proper perspective. I do think however that insisting on making the victims peerless and oppressors irredeemable is backfiring spectacularly in it that it invites the very binary thinking we should avoid... I mean, if people insist Dragon Age should teach or show people something (that is also applicable to IRL situations), then they may as well make situations like this nuanced and NOT participate in unwittingly propagating black-and-white mentality that ultimately hurts many victims and helps absolve perpetrators. That was after she grew tired of hunting mortals, at the start of the Elven God Andruil codex in DAI (found in Wild Arbor): One day Andruil grew tired of hunting mortal men and beasts. She began stalking The Forgotten Ones, wicked things that thrive in the abyss.Let's not forget that those codex entries are just recounting legends. The idea that Andruil hunted 'mortal men' could easily be a later amendment to the already existing myth, added after the fact when elven kids who feared humans above everything wouldn't stop interrupting and asking "But where were the shemlen?", forcing the beleaguered storytellers who had no earthly idea to just fit them in where it seemed to make sense. Which isn't to say that it's implausible, based on Solas' comments on the various modern races. If the ancient elves were as much more awake to the world than we are as he implies then there's no reason why they would consider humans much more existentially valuable than beasts. We should probably keep in mind that, according to texts we have found in Trespasser elves have had a concept of 'mortals' that doesn't necessarily means to elves what it means to modern Thedosians. Fen'Harel's message to his followers is that "The gods, our Evanuris, claim divinity, yet they are naught but mortals powerful in magic who can die as you can."I mean... for ancient elves like Abelas, everyone in modern Thedas, including modern elves ARE mortals. Also, given that my pet theory is that, at some point, *everyone were elves* (or there was not that much of a distinction between races, with probable exception being Dwarves, albeit I can see how they could have common origins with elves), I expect some surprises when it comes to human origins.
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Post by phoray on Sept 20, 2020 14:05:23 GMT
One day Andruil grew tired of hunting mortal men and beasts. I didn't think men referred to specifically humans, and I dont know why it has to, as men are a gender not a species. Anything that can die is mortal, and they killed their elven slaves in droves
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Post by phoray on Sept 20, 2020 14:09:39 GMT
Dragon Age playthrough can be two Dalish hunters casually murdering three guys just for catching them taking a walk in the forest, without fear....But the scene sure isn't pretty. *squints* Not any more ugly or damning than if a couple of Dalish wandered into town just to have a look. Red Crossinganyone?
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Post by Noxluxe on Sept 20, 2020 14:24:55 GMT
From my perspective pointing at Tevinter and saying 'look, Vints demonstrate the danger of being a mage, this is why we have to persecute you' is not very different from pointing and being like 'look, mages were awful in the past, this is why we have to persecute you'. Because while there exists reasonable caution against power that has turned sideways on its wielders multiple times, and in a perfect world it would be a subject of proper regulations or generally agreed rules, having magic isn't a reason for anyone to be treated as sub-human, just like having magic doesn't automatically makes one an ubermensch (esp. that we don't yet fully know why non-mages are non-mages or why the world is how it is, etc). Eh. I think there's a huge difference between keeping someone separated because their grandparents shot up the whole town, and keeping someone separated because their grandparents shot up the whole town and they were born with machine guns for arms. I get that the nuance might not mean a whole lot to the one being treated like a dangerous object, but whether or not they actually are is still a critical factor in figuring out whether their treatment is necessary in spite of its cruelty or just inhumane for no reason. It would never occur to me to argue that the current circle system seems like the optimal way to keep mages in check, but after three games of one magical catastrophe after another I would definitely argue that it seems better than nothing. *squints* Not any more ugly or damning than if a couple of Dalish wandered into town just to have a look. Red Crossinganyone? I'm not arguing the point, but one doesn't exactly justify the other, does it?
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Post by phoray on Sept 20, 2020 14:32:53 GMT
NoxluxeForgive me if I have lost the strand of the debate, but weren't you justifying the elves having aggression done against them because they themselves are violent? Who shot first in this War of elves against humans? Does it matter if it continues? But it doesn't stop the elves from having been the natives (or at least, co natives with dwarves) and the humans coming into their space. It doesn't stop the truth that there have been thousands of years of violence between the two races. I don't condone it, but neither am I surprised that the couple of aggressive male teenagers in the group lacked the wisdom to see beyond their immediate desire to take out a very possible threat to their families in the immediate vicinity to their clan. If you DO shoot the humans, the wise keeper leader chews you out for it, so calmer elven minds ARE against such actions. So it seems to me you are using an Origin backstory to justify painting an entire race as violent while simultaneously ignoring that the humans have been just as violent. Both sides of this are ugly. And if the humans were the minority fighting for a space in a territory that used to be theirs, such as the Fog Warriors pushing back against the Qunari in Seheron, we would look at them as Freedom Fighters. But no, the minority elves doing exactly the same are what? Frustrated imperialists? Pathetic for trying to hang onto their culture and beliefs?
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Post by Rascoth on Sept 20, 2020 14:58:26 GMT
The ancient elves never did anything to humans. They didn't exist at the same time. Just a quick note to this, timeline in WoT1 suggests they lived together for a time. Then elves isolated themselves from the humans, since they noticed the quickening and blamed contact with humans as its source. Tevinter Imperium and fall of Arlathan came later.
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Post by Noxluxe on Sept 20, 2020 14:59:08 GMT
Noxluxe Forgive me if I have lost the strand of the debate, but weren't you justifying the elves having aggression done against them because they themselves are violent? Who shot first in this ear of elves against humans of it continues? But it doesn't stop the elves from having been the natives (or at least, go natives with dwarves) and the humans coming into their space. It doesn't stop the truth that there have been thousands of years of violence between the two races. I don't condone it, but neither am I surprised that the couple of aggressive male teenagers in the group lacked the wisdom to see beyond their immediate desire to take out a very possible threat to their families in the immediate vicinity to their clan. If you DO shoot the humans, the wise keeper leader chews you out for it, so calmer elven minds ARE against such actions. So it seems to me you are using an Origin backstory to justify painting an entire race as violent while simultaneously ignoring that the humans have been just as violent. Both sides of this are ugly. And if the humans were the minority fighting for a space in a territory that used to be theirs, such as the Fog Warriors pushing back against the Qunari in Seheron, we would look at them as Freedom Fighters. But no, the minority elves doing exactly the same are what? Frustrated imperialists? Pathetic for trying to hang onto their culture and beliefs? Wtf people. Uhm. No, I wasn't. I never said anything to the effect of any of those things. I've specifically been arguing the exact opposite, that elves (or anyone) occasionally being jerks doesn't lessen what has been done to them, and that what has been done to them also doesn't lessen the times they've occasionally been jerks. If you've somehow spun that around to meaning that one atrocity automatically justifies another then you're clearly putting words in my mouth. And since you put it forward, I'll also quickly point out that the just punishment for three cold-blooded murders is generally considered worse than a few hard words from your elder. But I never said that the Dalish as a people show general approval for the pointless killing of shemlen, let alone that humans haven't been at least as bad. Don't know where you get that from either. And Tamlen's behavior certainly doesn't suggest that he's gambling with the safety of his people if you decide to let the scavengers go. He's very obviously itching to kill them just for his own satisfaction, as can you be, and he'll blow you off if you suggest that there's anything wrong with it. That's an angry young man taking the opportunity to use 'acceptable targets' as scapegoats for his frustrations, not a protector taking necessary steps to defend his loved ones. Seems to me that you have, as you say, pretty much lost the strand of the debate. And I forgive you, since you ask for it, though I feel a little hurt at being taken this far out of context. But you're obviously taking the discussion a lot more personally than I thought you were going to, so I'm sorry if my phrasing seems offensive even though I don't see that it should be. Can't speak for colfoley . As I said I don't agree with his assessment of the Dalish, though I can see why he might have gotten the impression he has. Or at least why the words 'frustrated imperialist' came to mind, given the Elves' early history which nonetheless seems only barely relevant to modern Dalish culture.
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Iakus
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Post by Iakus on Sept 20, 2020 15:25:03 GMT
The ancient elves never did anything to humans. They didn't exist at the same time. Just a quick note to this, timeline in WoT1 suggests they lived together for a time. Then elves isolated themselves from the humans, since they noticed the quickening and blamed contact with humans as its source. Tevinter Imperium and fall of Arlathan came later. Solas directly contradicts this in Trespasser. According to him, the quickening came when he created the Veil which destroyed Arlathan. The Tevinters later found their devastated empire, scavenged what they could from the remains, and enslaved the remaining elves. Blaming shemlen for their fall came later, it appears.
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Post by smilesja on Sept 20, 2020 15:29:21 GMT
BioWare is constantly bending over backwards to try and make the genocide of non-humans and mages and "barbarians" seem justified, and to make the perpetrators of these crimes (like Celene and Meredith) seem sympathetic. Because they have foolishly committed to some ridiculous notion of "moral ambiguity". Yes, I just can't wait for Rivain, where we'll discover that the mages in Dairsmuid actually deserved to be genocide’d, because they eat babies or something. The chantry trying to eradicate a culture they don't agree with was actually morally grey, you see!!1! Again just because it was revealed that the Ancient Elves were pretty bad people doesn't excuse what the Tevinter Imperium's and by extension humanity's actions after the destruction of the Elven empire.
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Post by Solas on Sept 20, 2020 15:35:58 GMT
I read Andruil's hunting of mortal men as in she was hunting elf peons who were at the bottom of the social system in Arlathan. elves in general didn't begin aging until after the creation of the Veil, it's true, but they could get wounded and die. whatever the specifics of it, there's a clear delineation in ancient elven culture (presumably both social-perception-ly and literal power-level-ly) between the Evanuris and "mortal elves":
"Fen'Harel has been falsely named a god, but is as mortal as any of you. He takes no divine mantle and asks that none be bestowed upon him."
"This is... Fen'Harel helping former slaves as a mortal. Not a god."
"This claims the elven "gods" were just "Evanuris" - powerful but completely mortal mages. If that's true, Fen'Harel was teaching these freed slaves the truth about these "false gods"."
Aside from social status and magic power level, I'd guess the difference lies in that if a peon mortal elf got wounded and died, they died permadeathly, but if the Evanuris died, they just came back, like Voldemorts. that's why you can't just kill them to overthrow them, they'll just come back and kick your ass. Solas says himself "The first of my people do not die so easily". Maybe it was some Horcrux shit, maybe Evanuris souls worked like how Old God souls constantly just jump to the next darkspawn body unless killed in The Right way, maybe it's got something to do with possession or their potential origin as powerful spirits and spirits can essentially regenerate if the conditions are right or what. But Solas describes this as "Effective immortality" when he's talking about how he didn't forsee Corypheus gaining the ability. "I did not expect a Tevinter Magister to discover the secret of effective immortality", the way he says that it's like he's saying "How did this guy figure out how to do what the Evanuris can do bruh?"
anyway Andruil hunting elf peons is totally in character for her from what we know anyway, and similarly characteristic of what the Evanuris were like and how they treated their subjects too (Ghil experiments, Falon'din killing everyone who wouldn't bow etc). they sometimes seem to have treated their subjects as playthings. the Occam's razor assumption is that it was unfortunate elf peons.
also before encountering the other races the elves wouldn't have known what human-mortality (aging) is, and so they had their own definitions of the words immortal and mortal. elf-mortality was something different.
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Post by eskiya on Sept 20, 2020 15:37:27 GMT
I think they write stories this way because they are dumb. Then...why are you here?
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Post by phoray on Sept 20, 2020 15:42:33 GMT
The ancient elves never did anything to humans. They didn't exist at the same time. Just a quick note to this, timeline in WoT1 suggests they lived together for a time. Then elves isolated themselves from the humans, since they noticed the quickening and blamed contact with humans as its source. Tevinter Imperium and fall of Arlathan came later. I vaguely recall that. But I thought it was still Post Veil, so the evidence to support that one of Evanuris was hunting the humans is not currently there, is all I was arguing for.
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