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Post by Deleted on Sept 19, 2020 20:07:06 GMT
Maaaaan... all these ideas about what could be addressed in DA4 make the choice to experience it for the very first time as a dwarf or qunari a really hard decision! That's assuming the full range of race selection comes back, which I think it will but obviously there's no guarantee. What's everybody's first race + class of choice, based on what little we know so far? How do you want to experience the story first? Dwarf (male) ranged rogue! It’s high time my canon PC is a dwarf again. Hasn’t been since the Warden. And as a staunch warrior fan, I was a surprised at how much I absolutely LOVED playing as a ranged rogue in one of my alt playthroughs in DA:I. Since I’m not at all stealthy (see my warrior fan comment), I’d love it if I could be a tanky melee archer. So that’s my plan. And I’ll likely play as a male Qunari mage as my first alt playthrough. Not a big fan of Mages but Tevinter feels like the place and I’m hoping that having a Qunari mage will be spicy from both the Vint and Qunari perspective. The REAL question for me is if I will finally be able to do a second lady PC playthrough. You know that I struggle with this. It’s hard to play as a lady when I could be a gay guy. I always eek out one lady PC playthrough and it’s almost always a dwarf (probably a two handed warrior this time). But I’ve really wanted to play a lady Qunari for a while. I just can’t ever find myself interested enough to get too deep in the playthrough. I find that I meet Bull or Dorian and I say, ‘Why am I wasting time romancing Sera or Josephine when I could be a guy snuggling up with some dude?’ I had originally hoped the situation would be rectified if there were multiple f/f LIs that interested me. After all, my lady Cadash ended up with Blackwall (despite being intended for Sera). But when ME:A came out and I was thoroughly interested in both Vetra and Suvi, I still found it hard and, in fact, never even finished my Sara playthrough. But if both Harding and the Qunari lady are f/f options, maybe DA4 will be the game.....?
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Post by vertigomez on Sept 19, 2020 20:21:01 GMT
Maaaaan... all these ideas about what could be addressed in DA4 make the choice to experience it for the very first time as a dwarf or qunari a really hard decision! That's assuming the full range of race selection comes back, which I think it will but obviously there's no guarantee. What's everybody's first race + class of choice, based on what little we know so far? How do you want to experience the story first? Dwarf (male) ranged rogue! It’s high time my canon PC is a dwarf again. Hasn’t been since the Warden. And as a staunch warrior fan, I was a surprised at how much I absolutely LOVED playing as a ranged rogue in one of my alt playthroughs in DA:I. Since I’m not at all stealthy (see my warrior fan comment), I’d love it if I could be a tanky melee archer. So that’s my plan. And I’ll likely play as a male Qunari mage as my first alt playthrough. Not a big fan of Mages but Tevinter feels like the place and I’m hoping that having a Qunari mage will be spicy from both the Vint and Qunari perspective. The REAL question for me is if I will finally be able to do a second lady PC playthrough. You know that I struggle with this. It’s hard to play as a lady when I could be a gay guy. I always eek out one lady PC playthrough and it’s almost always a dwarf (probably a two handed warrior this time). But I’ve really wanted to play a lady Qunari for a while. I just can’t ever find myself interested enough to get too deep in the playthrough. I find that I meet Bull or Dorian and I say, ‘Why am I wasting time romancing Sera or Josephine when I could be a guy snuggling up with some dude?’ I had originally hoped the situation would be rectified if there were multiple f/f LIs that interested me. After all, my lady Cadash ended up with Blackwall (despite being intended for Sera). But when ME:A came out and I was thoroughly interested in both Vetra and Suvi, I still found it hard and, in fact, never even finished my Sara playthrough. But if both Harding and the Qunari lady are f/f options, maybe DA4 will be the game.....? I'm leaning towards a dwarf, too. But a few days ago I was leaning towards a qunari, so who knows? I think we're going to get spicy information on both so I know I can't really go wrong with either. I think it's gonna come down to the voice actors and if there are any race-locked romances or anything like that. AAAHHHHH, DECISIONS. I sorta feel you on that last part. I have no problem playing men (my "canon" for DA2, insofar as that goes, is a male mage Hawke with Fenris), but even though I love Bull and Dorian and have Inquisitors that I love all fleshed out for them, when it comes down to actually playing DAI I'm like...... my wife is RIGHT THERE, HOW CAN I NOT 😭😭😳 But generally I like to play ladies for f/f and fellas for m/m so it's like... four or so playthroughs. Class is too hard to choose loooool. I like the idea of DW rogues but I had a hard time with that in DAI, so depending on the game mechanics I might go more tanky this time. I've gotta be super buff so I can bridal carry my qunari girlfriend.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 19, 2020 20:38:31 GMT
Dwarf (male) ranged rogue! It’s high time my canon PC is a dwarf again. Hasn’t been since the Warden. And as a staunch warrior fan, I was a surprised at how much I absolutely LOVED playing as a ranged rogue in one of my alt playthroughs in DA:I. Since I’m not at all stealthy (see my warrior fan comment), I’d love it if I could be a tanky melee archer. So that’s my plan. And I’ll likely play as a male Qunari mage as my first alt playthrough. Not a big fan of Mages but Tevinter feels like the place and I’m hoping that having a Qunari mage will be spicy from both the Vint and Qunari perspective. The REAL question for me is if I will finally be able to do a second lady PC playthrough. You know that I struggle with this. It’s hard to play as a lady when I could be a gay guy. I always eek out one lady PC playthrough and it’s almost always a dwarf (probably a two handed warrior this time). But I’ve really wanted to play a lady Qunari for a while. I just can’t ever find myself interested enough to get too deep in the playthrough. I find that I meet Bull or Dorian and I say, ‘Why am I wasting time romancing Sera or Josephine when I could be a guy snuggling up with some dude?’ I had originally hoped the situation would be rectified if there were multiple f/f LIs that interested me. After all, my lady Cadash ended up with Blackwall (despite being intended for Sera). But when ME:A came out and I was thoroughly interested in both Vetra and Suvi, I still found it hard and, in fact, never even finished my Sara playthrough. But if both Harding and the Qunari lady are f/f options, maybe DA4 will be the game.....? I'm leaning towards a dwarf, too. But a few days ago I was leaning towards a qunari, so who knows? I think we're going to get spicy information on both so I know I can't really go wrong with either. I think it's gonna come down to the voice actors and if there are any race-locked romances or anything like that. AAAHHHHH, DECISIONS. I sorta feel you on that last part. I have no problem playing men (my "canon" for DA2, insofar as that goes, is a male mage Hawke with Fenris), but even though I love Bull and Dorian and have Inquisitors that I love all fleshed out for them, when it comes down to actually playing DAI I'm like...... my wife is RIGHT THERE, HOW CAN I NOT 😭😭😳 But generally I like to play ladies for f/f and fellas for m/m so it's like... four or so playthroughs. Class is too hard to choose loooool. I like the idea of DW rogues but I had a hard time with that in DAI, so depending on the game mechanics I might go more tanky this time. I've gotta be super buff so I can bridal carry my qunari girlfriend. My ‘Canon’ Warden - male dwarf (noble) warrior/sword & shield Hawke - male human (humorous) mage/support (healing) Inquisitor - male Qunari warrior/two handed My ‘Alts’ Warden - female dwarf (noble) warrior/sword & shield 2nd Warden - female dwarf (common) rogue/ dual wield Hawke - male human (diplomatic) warrior/ two handed Inquisitor - male dwarf rogue/ dual wield 2nd Quizzie - female dwarf rogue/ ranged And now that we’ve got the keep, I import canon characters for the other canons. And alt playthroughs for the other alts. Typically my Alta do the opposite of my canon (werewolves instead of dalish or Templar’s instead of Mages) in order to see how it plays out differently. And in case you were wondering romances, it’s Zevran, Anders, & Dorian for my canon. And Alistair, Leliana, Fenris, Bull, & Blackwall for the alts (in order).
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Post by colfoley on Sept 19, 2020 20:42:36 GMT
Right now I am going with a male rogue named Oliver and a female mage named Andromeda for my two starting PTs... you know I just realized I mention this a LOT...forgive me and my fandom noises. lol
***
I also had a revelation about Patrick's line of 'we want to tell a story of what happens when you don't have power...' and I am really 100% ok with it now considering that is basically the theme of Dragon Age to this point, and they have done a bang up job with their thematic and story and philosophy side of writing so...
Origins: While the Wardens did have power in Cailan's Court...he died soon, Loghain rose to power, ordered them hunted down, and then promptly pissed off the nobles so badly they started a civil war rather then dealing with the Blight.
2: A bit murkier. Once more Hawke didn't really have any power throughout most of the game the thing is they (or at least my Hawk) was pretty much ignoring the problems with everyone else, and then the Qunari and Mage situation exploded. Though she was a bit more out in front of the mage issue...
Inquisition: The Inquisition did have power by the end of the game...but again early on they were anathema with the Chantry hating on them specifically and everyone else basically just ignoring them and dealing with them as a curiosity...ignoring not only the problem with the Breach and Corypheus but also many of the bandit problems in their own back yards leaving the Inquisition to solve them before dealing with the larger threat.
So yeah, they'll be fine.
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Post by smilesja on Sept 19, 2020 20:48:19 GMT
Yeah, I don't agree with the constant pouring on that the Elves were heavily flawed but I really like the idea. Every race has significant flaws and are just as responsible for the scars inflicted on to the world. the Inquisitors line in the trailer comes to mind: "the world is tearing itself apart" Thedas:
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Post by Liadan on Sept 19, 2020 21:39:34 GMT
Maaaaan... all these ideas about what could be addressed in DA4 make the choice to experience it for the very first time as a dwarf or qunari a really hard decision! That's assuming the full range of race selection comes back, which I think it will but obviously there's no guarantee. What's everybody's first race + class of choice, based on what little we know so far? How do you want to experience the story first? Probably female human mage or warrior as it is my usual choice for the first playthrough.
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Post by Buckeldemon on Sept 19, 2020 22:14:15 GMT
Yeah, because Tevinter totally DIDN'T enslave the elves they came across "sifting through the garbage" It's almost like Bioware was deliberately muddying the morality waters, that ALL the old empires were *ssholes to some degree, and the current nations are paying for their sins. Nah, humans are all b*stards and elves are pure as the driven snow. It is known Eh, was that "muddling" of the Dales (not talking about the Evanuris here) or the templar whitewashing really necesary though? Everyone who played "Nature of the Beast" knows that elves can be assholes. That's a common idea (you god(s) are just aspect of my god(s)) throughout history you know. That's pretty much how Romans managed to control all their conquered lands. There is some of it in every religions on Earth (sometimes depending what is popular that century...see Middle Age Christianity with the super powered Saints and local mythological monsters slaying). And who's the say the idea of the Marker isn't an Elvish one. They must have had some sort of religion before the Evanuris. I do know. I also know that the Chantry suffers from some sort of superiority complex and has to put their stuff above everyone else's. And that's how Giselle come across to me here. Perhaps the elves had no religion beforehand? And even if they did, who's to say that it was the omnipotent superthing ripped off from Christianity with a sprinkle of "deadbeat dad", if we go by the Chantry's interpretation of the Maker. And if that entity isn't the Maker according to chantric definitions, it is something else entirely anyway. But Bioware already said they aren't going to reveal whether or not the Maker is real and who or what he is Then they call the final area in the Descent the Wellspring, even though that is what Andraste calls the Maker in the Canticle of Andraste. So why do they do this? Just messing with us? Want to deliberately mislead us? If they genuinely never intend telling us whether the being Andraste was talking with was the Creator of the World or not, then stop using references that point us in the direction that suggests they are going to reveal this? If it is just a case that we are never going to know what the ultimate source of life in Thedas is, that is a different matter, since that could be left mysterious even if every race's idea of this is disproven. Well, that's an interesting point. I don't know if that's deliberate or if Bioware simply missed it. I actually consider the latter more likely though. *sigh* Another thing ruined by just “because ancient elves”. It just shows that despite them blaming humans for everything that's happened, recent revelations show that Elves are no better in terms of morality. ... and that justifies apologists of cultural genocide?
I'm referring to the plot twist that the downfall of the Ancient Elves turns out to be the doing of one of their own, and all Tevinter did was show up to sift through the garbage. To a lesser extent, I am also referring to every other instance where BioWare added some tidbit or other that was clearly intended to muddy the morality waters by implying that elves are culpable in most/all of the violence humans historically visited upon them, and depending on player inclination, might even allow you to view the elves as being the entirely guilty party. Of course, BioWare seems to like doing this a lot, just in general. Can't forget those big mean Avvar, summoning a dragon-abomination to oust poor widdle Orlais from their land while they were already dealing with a Blight, boohoo. All I can really say is I disagree with you fundamentally on this issue. If anything Bioware has, at least for me, shown the folly of things like Colonialism (as well as any other specific form of government rulership over its people) given what an utter crap show Thedas is (and yet I love it still) just because the Elves were as crap as Tevinter does not absolve Tevinter just like just because the Elves of the Dales were just as crap as the Orlesians does not absolve them either. That's not really how that works. It may make certain actions more understandable but cultural genocide is still cultural genocide. Umm... Since when exactly wanted the Dales to force their beliefs on Orlais? Last time I checked, no Dales/Dalish/city elf could be seen as guilty of cultural genocide, much less genocide in general. Right now I am going with a male rogue named Oliver and a female mage named Andromeda for my two starting PTs... you know I just realized I mention this a LOT...forgive me and my fandom noises. lol *** I also had a revelation about Patrick's line of 'we want to tell a story of what happens when you don't have power...' and I am really 100% ok with it now considering that is basically the theme of Dragon Age to this point, and they have done a bang up job with their thematic and story and philosophy side of writing so... Origins: While the Wardens did have power in Cailan's Court...he died soon, Loghain rose to power, ordered them hunted down, and then promptly pissed off the nobles so badly they started a civil war rather then dealing with the Blight. 2: A bit murkier. Once more Hawke didn't really have any power throughout most of the game the thing is they (or at least my Hawk) was pretty much ignoring the problems with everyone else, and then the Qunari and Mage situation exploded. Though she was a bit more out in front of the mage issue... Inquisition: The Inquisition did have power by the end of the game...but again early on they were anathema with the Chantry hating on them specifically and everyone else basically just ignoring them and dealing with them as a curiosity...ignoring not only the problem with the Breach and Corypheus but also many of the bandit problems in their own back yards leaving the Inquisition to solve them before dealing with the larger threat. So yeah, they'll be fine. I'd say quite a lot of the Wardens start out as pretty powerless during their OS (both elves, mages, casteless dwarfs), while the nobles are gutted at the end of their OS and the Wardens, besides being Loghain'ed later as you said, did not have that much clout to begin with, thanks to Sophia Dryden.
"What happens when you don't have power and the people in charge aren't willing to adress the issues?"
City Elf: "Alienage uprising. Vaughn gets a pot on his head." Mage: "Jowan destroys his phylactery and uses blood magic." DA2: "The Chantry blows up." DAI: "The Chantry remains."
Maaaaan... all these ideas about what could be addressed in DA4 make the choice to experience it for the very first time as a dwarf or qunari a really hard decision! That's assuming the full range of race selection comes back, which I think it will but obviously there's no guarantee. What's everybody's first race + class of choice, based on what little we know so far? How do you want to experience the story first? Spoilsport. I was just warming up. Elf mage, Dalish if possible and handled better this time, just because I want to know how they react to the revelations. Some kind of human 'vint mage is the next best bet.
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Post by colfoley on Sept 19, 2020 22:21:06 GMT
Yeah, because Tevinter totally DIDN'T enslave the elves they came across "sifting through the garbage" It's almost like Bioware was deliberately muddying the morality waters, that ALL the old empires were *ssholes to some degree, and the current nations are paying for their sins. Nah, humans are all b*stards and elves are pure as the driven snow. It is known Eh, was that "muddling" of the Dales (not talking about the Evanuris here) or the templar whitewashing really necesary though? Everyone who played "Nature of the Beast" knows that elves can be assholes. That's a common idea (you god(s) are just aspect of my god(s)) throughout history you know. That's pretty much how Romans managed to control all their conquered lands. There is some of it in every religions on Earth (sometimes depending what is popular that century...see Middle Age Christianity with the super powered Saints and local mythological monsters slaying). And who's the say the idea of the Marker isn't an Elvish one. They must have had some sort of religion before the Evanuris. I do know. I also know that the Chantry suffers from some sort of superiority complex and has to put their stuff above everyone else's. And that's how Giselle come across to me here. Perhaps the elves had no religion beforehand? And even if they did, who's to say that it was the omnipotent superthing ripped off from Christianity with a sprinkle of "deadbeat dad", if we go by the Chantry's interpretation of the Maker. And if that entity isn't the Maker according to chantric definitions, it is something else entirely anyway. Then they call the final area in the Descent the Wellspring, even though that is what Andraste calls the Maker in the Canticle of Andraste. So why do they do this? Just messing with us? Want to deliberately mislead us? If they genuinely never intend telling us whether the being Andraste was talking with was the Creator of the World or not, then stop using references that point us in the direction that suggests they are going to reveal this? If it is just a case that we are never going to know what the ultimate source of life in Thedas is, that is a different matter, since that could be left mysterious even if every race's idea of this is disproven. Well, that's an interesting point. I don't know if that's deliberate or if Bioware simply missed it. I actually consider the latter more likely though. It just shows that despite them blaming humans for everything that's happened, recent revelations show that Elves are no better in terms of morality. ... and that justifies apologists of cultural genocide?
All I can really say is I disagree with you fundamentally on this issue. If anything Bioware has, at least for me, shown the folly of things like Colonialism (as well as any other specific form of government rulership over its people) given what an utter crap show Thedas is (and yet I love it still) just because the Elves were as crap as Tevinter does not absolve Tevinter just like just because the Elves of the Dales were just as crap as the Orlesians does not absolve them either. That's not really how that works. It may make certain actions more understandable but cultural genocide is still cultural genocide. Umm... Since when exactly wanted the Dales to force their beliefs on Orlais? Last time I checked, no Dales/Dalish/city elf could be seen as guilty of cultural genocide, much less genocide in general. Right now I am going with a male rogue named Oliver and a female mage named Andromeda for my two starting PTs... you know I just realized I mention this a LOT...forgive me and my fandom noises. lol *** I also had a revelation about Patrick's line of 'we want to tell a story of what happens when you don't have power...' and I am really 100% ok with it now considering that is basically the theme of Dragon Age to this point, and they have done a bang up job with their thematic and story and philosophy side of writing so... Origins: While the Wardens did have power in Cailan's Court...he died soon, Loghain rose to power, ordered them hunted down, and then promptly pissed off the nobles so badly they started a civil war rather then dealing with the Blight. 2: A bit murkier. Once more Hawke didn't really have any power throughout most of the game the thing is they (or at least my Hawk) was pretty much ignoring the problems with everyone else, and then the Qunari and Mage situation exploded. Though she was a bit more out in front of the mage issue... Inquisition: The Inquisition did have power by the end of the game...but again early on they were anathema with the Chantry hating on them specifically and everyone else basically just ignoring them and dealing with them as a curiosity...ignoring not only the problem with the Breach and Corypheus but also many of the bandit problems in their own back yards leaving the Inquisition to solve them before dealing with the larger threat. So yeah, they'll be fine. I'd say quite a lot of the Wardens start out as pretty powerless during their OS (both elves, mages, casteless dwarfs), while the nobles are gutted at the end of their OS and the Wardens, besides being Loghain'ed later as you said, did not have that much clout to begin with, thanks to Sophia Dryden.
"What happens when you don't have power and the people in charge aren't willing to adress the issues?"
City Elf: "Alienage uprising. Vaughn gets a pot on his head." Mage: "Jowan destroys his phylactery and uses blood magic." DA2: "The Chantry blows up." DAI: "The Chantry remains."
Maaaaan... all these ideas about what could be addressed in DA4 make the choice to experience it for the very first time as a dwarf or qunari a really hard decision! That's assuming the full range of race selection comes back, which I think it will but obviously there's no guarantee. What's everybody's first race + class of choice, based on what little we know so far? How do you want to experience the story first? Spoilsport. I was just warming up. Elf mage, Dalish if possible and handled better this time, just because I want to know how they react to the revelations. Some kind of human 'vint mage is the next best bet.
...I didn't say they did?
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Post by smilesja on Sept 19, 2020 23:40:24 GMT
It just shows that despite them blaming humans for everything that's happened, recent revelations show that Elves are no better in terms of morality. ... and that justifies apologists of cultural genocide? Huh? Where did I say that? I just said even though humans commit horrible acts, the Elves in their prime were no better.
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Post by Hrungr on Sept 20, 2020 0:15:04 GMT
Maaaaan... all these ideas about what could be addressed in DA4 make the choice to experience it for the very first time as a dwarf or qunari a really hard decision! That's assuming the full range of race selection comes back, which I think it will but obviously there's no guarantee. What's everybody's first race + class of choice, based on what little we know so far? How do you want to experience the story first? As combat is getting revamped, I'd want to see them in action first before deciding on a class. But right now I'm leaning towards some kind of Elven Arcane Warrior...
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Post by Buckeldemon on Sept 20, 2020 0:16:44 GMT
]...I didn't say they did? You did say The elves of the Dales were not on the same level as Orlais and the Chantry at the time. The Dales did not commit cultural genocide. (Heck, cultural genocide is the driving motivation of the Chantry and the Qun.) ... and that justifies apologists of cultural genocide? Huh? Where did I say that? I just said even though humans commit horrible acts, the Elves in their prime were no better. I personally do make difference between ancient and modern elves afterall. I don't even try to put all human in one basket, merely Tevinter and the Chantry/Orlais, as they did most of the human crap. (No issue with the "barbarians".) I'm just extremely sick if people even attempt to pull "but the ancient elves...". It doesn't frickin' matter. Most modern elves are still oppressed in some way on a daily basis, even if quite a fair bunch of human characters in the games think it is a thing of the past, in DAI especially, but not exclusively.
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Post by Iakus on Sept 20, 2020 0:18:00 GMT
Yeah, because Tevinter totally DIDN'T enslave the elves they came across "sifting through the garbage" It's almost like Bioware was deliberately muddying the morality waters, that ALL the old empires were *ssholes to some degree, and the current nations are paying for their sins. Nah, humans are all b*stards and elves are pure as the driven snow. It is known Eh, was that "muddling" of the Dales (not talking about the Evanuris here) or the templar whitewashing really necesary though? Everyone who played "Nature of the Beast" knows that elves can be assholes. Why not? It was already clear that relations were strained between humans and elves. Is it any surprise that a major conflict like the Exalted March on the Dales arose from such a misunderstand brought about by it? I can tell you right now that Nature of the Beast did NOT really drive home just how "asshole" elves can be. Plenty of people thought (and still think) Zathrian was totally justified. Not sure what you mean by Templars being whitewashed. It's pretty clear the order was formed with good intention, but had become corrupted over the centuries.
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Post by Noxluxe on Sept 20, 2020 5:29:48 GMT
Wow. I had no idea that portraying people as fallible was totally the same as morally justifying atrocities committed against them, or that showing a corrupt institution as not always having been necessarily 100% undiluted garbage is totally the same as whitewashing them. You learn so much on these forums. Assuming the game looks good whenever they get around to actually releasing indicative marketing instead of murals and behind-the-scenes videos, I'll most likely start off playing as a tough-as-nails dwarf rogue and see how that feels. Then, when rogue combat inevitably turns out to just be more superpowered ninja bullshit, I'll reroll him as a warrior. Maybe I'll consider playing a Qunari rogue/warrior instead if that's an option and it seems more natural than it did in Inquisition, which I'm hopeful it will.
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Post by midnight tea on Sept 20, 2020 6:32:16 GMT
Wow. I had no idea that portraying people as fallible was totally the same as morally justifying atrocities committed against them, or that showing a corrupt institution as not always having been necessarily 100% undiluted garbage is totally the same as whitewashing them. You learn so much on these forums. Assuming the game looks good whenever they get around to actually releasing indicative marketing instead of murals and behind-the-scenes videos, I'll most likely start off playing as a tough-as-nails dwarf rogue and see how that feels. Then, when rogue combat inevitably turns out to just be more superpowered ninja bullshit, I'll reroll him as a warrior. Maybe I'll consider playing a Qunari rogue/warrior instead if that's an option and it seems more natural than it did in Inquisition, which I'm hopeful it will. Yea, I can't say I have ever understood this sort of thinking - those who claim that showing a side that is now going through crap as not pristine don't seem much different to me as those who want to use even the tiniest fault to blame victims, justify oppression or crappy behavior towards a specific group. And while I know that the worry of the first in large part stems from abundance of people in the second, I don't think the way to fight this sort of black-and-white thinking is making the world as black-and-white as the second group wants it and demanding flawlessness from the victims and total arseholery from the groups in power. Oppressions is oppression, genocide is genocide, discrimination is discrimination, bigotry is bigotry - nobody 'deserves it' (especially ages after stuff happened) and one can't easily use past sins or mistakes or actions of certain groups within that group as rationale for crappy behavior towards them. Even if the elves were ultimately responsible for their own downfall (and I'm pretty sure most just wanted to survive OR fought to make things better, while a specific group(s) among them made things so much worse for the majority) the Vints and other humans or Chantry totally own being awful to elves. It's the same with mages - regardless how awful Tevinter may be with their magocracy, it doesn't justify persecuting and locking mages in Circles on the South. Anyway... I'll likely start with my 'default' which is a mobile elf or human mage with range attacks. And if we'd get a magicka archer I'd immediately go for that.
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Post by Noxluxe on Sept 20, 2020 7:34:33 GMT
It's the same with mages - regardless how awful Tevinter may be with their magocracy, it doesn't justify persecuting and locking mages in Circles on the South.Anyway... I'll likely start with my 'default' which is a mobile elf or human mage with range attacks. And if we'd get a magicka archer I'd immediately go for that. I'd argue (for the umpteenth time) that the mages aren't being locked up or persecuted specifically as punishment for the Tevinters' actions, but rather because they have enormous destructive potential which the Tevinters were simply the ones to demonstrate the danger of to modern Thedas. Which isn't quite the same thing. But I entirely agree with what you're saying in spirit. That insistent black-and-white categorical thinking about factions and races seems like a recipe for disaster all on its own, even aside from being completely irrational. I think it's a weird perversion of the idea of victim-blaming, which specifically refers to the perpetrator of a crime being forgiven while the victim is held responsible. Holding both the victim and the perpetrator responsible for their own mistakes for the purposes of preventing future crimes isn't the same thing at all, but because victim-blaming is such a hated notion a lot of people just can't stand the victim in any situation being held to account for any kind of stupidity or malice of their own.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Sept 20, 2020 7:50:53 GMT
I'm referring to the plot twist that the downfall of the Ancient Elves turns out to be the doing of one of their own, and all Tevinter did was show up to sift through the garbage. To a lesser extent, I am also referring to every other instance where BioWare added some tidbit or other that was clearly intended to muddy the morality waters by implying that elves are culpable in most/all of the violence humans historically visited upon them, and depending on player inclination, might even allow you to view the elves as being the entirely guilty party. Of course, BioWare seems to like doing this a lot, just in general. Can't forget those big mean Avvar, summoning a dragon-abomination to oust poor widdle Orlais from their land while they were already dealing with a Blight, boohoo. All I can really say is I disagree with you fundamentally on this issue. If anything Bioware has, at least for me, shown the folly of things like Colonialism (as well as any other specific form of government rulership over its people) given what an utter crap show Thedas is (and yet I love it still) just because the Elves were as crap as Tevinter does not absolve Tevinter just like just because the Elves of the Dales were just as crap as the Orlesians does not absolve them either. That's not really how that works. It may make certain actions more understandable but cultural genocide is still cultural genocide. No, see, you are demonstrating my point when you say things like "The Elves of the Dales were just as crap as the Orlesians". BioWare is trying it's damnedest to make both sides seem "equally bad", but here's the thing: *only one side is guilty of slaughtering, displacing and destroying an entire civilization*. Likewise, we're supposed to think the Avvar were bad because of the particular way they went about defending their homeland from an encroaching expansionist empire. And at no point does any character say "Hey, maybe none of this would have happened if Kordillus Drakon had just stayed home and minded his own fucking business". BioWare is constantly bending over backwards to try and make the genocide of non-humans and mages and "barbarians" seem justified, and to make the perpetrators of these crimes (like Celene and Meredith) seem sympathetic. Because they have foolishly committed to some ridiculous notion of "moral ambiguity".
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Post by colfoley on Sept 20, 2020 7:54:18 GMT
]...I didn't say they did? You did say The elves of the Dales were not on the same level as Orlais and the Chantry at the time. The Dales did not commit cultural genocide. (Heck, cultural genocide is the driving motivation of the Chantry and the Qun.) Huh? Where did I say that? I just said even though humans commit horrible acts, the Elves in their prime were no better. I personally do make difference between ancient and modern elves afterall. I don't even try to put all human in one basket, merely Tevinter and the Chantry/Orlais, as they did most of the human crap. (No issue with the "barbarians".) I'm just extremely sick if people even attempt to pull "but the ancient elves...". It doesn't frickin' matter. Most modern elves are still oppressed in some way on a daily basis, even if quite a fair bunch of human characters in the games think it is a thing of the past, in DAI especially, but not exclusively. Ah wel once again maybe a bit of a poor word choice on my part. However, the Dalish are pretty crap. And their crapiness does not entirely justify what Orlais did to them. And also while they did not actually do cultural genocide they did essentially sit back and let the Darkspawn attack Orlais...which had the Darkspawn succeeded... (Also of particular note this theme of 'people in charge ignoring the real issues' has popped up again). Now...this is pretty much the constant theme of Dragon Age to this point and the real meat of it. Organizations are crap. Governments are crap. it seems almost a universal rule and is something Solas himself commented on in Tresspasser. And there is enough mirroring of exactly the kinds of crap which goes on in the various nations (things like Tranquility and Sarkmek...yes I know I butchered that) that it does some really great things for philsophical debate and just plays with emotion and perspective and really sometimes makes you wonder why you have a preference and who exactly the *bad guys* are. Which... just is pretty historical. Most of the times when I read history IRL this theme seems to come up that monsters are everywhere. Evil is everywhere and sometimes the best thing you can do is just muddy on through. And one attrocity does not justify the overexhuberance which happens in the name of stopping that attrocity or getting justice for it. What the Dalish did to humanity both in ancient times and in modern times is wrong...the Dalish perspective on trying to recapture the past like they do is wrong...but then so is the cultural genocide and slavery visited on them by the Tevinter Imperium, and pretty much all the nations of modern Thedas.
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Post by colfoley on Sept 20, 2020 8:00:49 GMT
All I can really say is I disagree with you fundamentally on this issue. If anything Bioware has, at least for me, shown the folly of things like Colonialism (as well as any other specific form of government rulership over its people) given what an utter crap show Thedas is (and yet I love it still) just because the Elves were as crap as Tevinter does not absolve Tevinter just like just because the Elves of the Dales were just as crap as the Orlesians does not absolve them either. That's not really how that works. It may make certain actions more understandable but cultural genocide is still cultural genocide. No, see, you are demonstrating my point when you say things like "The Elves of the Dales were just as crap as the Orlesians". BioWare is trying it's damnedest to make both sides seem "equally bad", but here's the thing: *only one side is guilty of slaughtering, displacing and destroying an entire civilization*. Likewise, we're supposed to think the Avvar were bad because of the particular way they went about defending their homeland from an encroaching expansionist empire. And at no point does any character say "Hey, maybe none of this would have happened if Kordillus Drakon had just stayed home and minded his own fucking business". BioWare is constantly bending over backwards to try and make the genocide of non-humans and mages and "barbarians" seem justified, and to make the perpetrators of these crimes (like Celene and Meredith) seem sympathetic. Because they have foolishly committed to some ridiculous notion of "moral ambiguity". Two basic points. 1. From my understanding of the timeline at this particular junction Drakon was specifically NOT eyeing up Western Ferelden or the Avaar lands as a means of expanding his Empire. Sure he MIGHT HAVE if the Blight had not happened but since it did happen Drakon was a little busy trying to stop it...and the Jaws of Hakkon were trying to take advantage of the situation and trying to challenge the new fledging Orlesian Empire. Picking a fight in other words against a nation who was already 'down.' Which there is nothing to say or indicate that this was a defensive action or a premptive one, but an entirely offensive one...and hell the Jaws of Hakkon didn't even have the excuse of wanting more territory, they just wanted to challenge the Orlesians and pick a fight. 2. From a more meta standpoint I cannot agree with your summation of events considering I view it differently. BioWare has never, ever, tried to bend over backwards to do anything of the sort. Their argument has never been 'humanity good everyone else crap'...that would frankly be an absurd notion given how many important characters come out and criticize humanity's actions in the series, let alone the number of attrocities the nations of Tevinter and Orlais has done...and even the good nations like Ferelden still have alienages.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Sept 20, 2020 8:10:31 GMT
No, see, you are demonstrating my point when you say things like "The Elves of the Dales were just as crap as the Orlesians". BioWare is trying it's damnedest to make both sides seem "equally bad", but here's the thing: *only one side is guilty of slaughtering, displacing and destroying an entire civilization*. Likewise, we're supposed to think the Avvar were bad because of the particular way they went about defending their homeland from an encroaching expansionist empire. And at no point does any character say "Hey, maybe none of this would have happened if Kordillus Drakon had just stayed home and minded his own fucking business". BioWare is constantly bending over backwards to try and make the genocide of non-humans and mages and "barbarians" seem justified, and to make the perpetrators of these crimes (like Celene and Meredith) seem sympathetic. Because they have foolishly committed to some ridiculous notion of "moral ambiguity". Two basic points. 1. From my understanding of the timeline at this particular junction Drakon was specifically NOT eyeing up Western Ferelden or the Avaar lands as a means of expanding his Empire. Sure he MIGHT HAVE if the Blight had not happened but since it did happen Drakon was a little busy trying to stop it...and the Jaws of Hakkon were trying to take advantage of the situation and trying to challenge the new fledging Orlesian Empire. Picking a fight in other words against a nation who was already 'down.' Which there is nothing to say or indicate that this was a defensive action or a premptive one, but an entirely offensive one...and hell the Jaws of Hakkon didn't even have the excuse of wanting more territory, they just wanted to challenge the Orlesians and pick a fight. 2. From a more meta standpoint I cannot agree with your summation of events considering I view it differently. BioWare has never, ever, tried to bend over backwards to do anything of the sort. Their argument has never been 'humanity good everyone else crap'...that would frankly be an absurd notion given how many important characters come out and criticize humanity's actions in the series, let alone the number of attrocities the nations of Tevinter and Orlais has done...and even the good nations like Ferelden still have alienages. 1. The state of Orlais at the time the Avvar summoned Hakkon is entirely beside my point. Orlais should never have existed. Kordillus Drakon should've stayed in Tevinter and never founded an empire in the first place. Founding an empire is an inherently aggressive act. 2. You've mischaracterised my argument entirely. I never said that BioWare was trying to make humanity seem good and everyone else seem bad. I said they keep offering excuses for genocide. They could avoid the situation entirely by simply having characters not commit genocide in the first place, or by not requiring players to choose between a person who commits genocide and a person who does not.
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Post by colfoley on Sept 20, 2020 8:12:12 GMT
Two basic points. 1. From my understanding of the timeline at this particular junction Drakon was specifically NOT eyeing up Western Ferelden or the Avaar lands as a means of expanding his Empire. Sure he MIGHT HAVE if the Blight had not happened but since it did happen Drakon was a little busy trying to stop it...and the Jaws of Hakkon were trying to take advantage of the situation and trying to challenge the new fledging Orlesian Empire. Picking a fight in other words against a nation who was already 'down.' Which there is nothing to say or indicate that this was a defensive action or a premptive one, but an entirely offensive one...and hell the Jaws of Hakkon didn't even have the excuse of wanting more territory, they just wanted to challenge the Orlesians and pick a fight. 2. From a more meta standpoint I cannot agree with your summation of events considering I view it differently. BioWare has never, ever, tried to bend over backwards to do anything of the sort. Their argument has never been 'humanity good everyone else crap'...that would frankly be an absurd notion given how many important characters come out and criticize humanity's actions in the series, let alone the number of attrocities the nations of Tevinter and Orlais has done...and even the good nations like Ferelden still have alienages. 1. The state of Orlais at the time the Avvar summoned Hakkon is entirely beside my point. Orlais should never have existed. Kordillus Drakon should've stayed in Tevinter and never founded an empire in the first place. Founding an empire is an inherently aggressive act. 2. You've mischaracterised my argument entirely. I never said that BioWare was trying to make humanity seem good and everyone else seem bad. I said they keep offering excuses for genocide. Interesting point and I cannot say you are wrong but then Orlais not existing sounds a bit...genocidal? No they don't. Edit: Now that I am thinking about it my incredulity meter is starting to bubble up. You keep on acusing BioWare of supporting all these things or offering excuses for all these things but if the company were actually this depraved and did these things then...why would anyone support them? I mean in a personal sense of the word because I don't think I would support a company that actually did these things with my hard earned money.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Sept 20, 2020 8:15:48 GMT
1. The state of Orlais at the time the Avvar summoned Hakkon is entirely beside my point. Orlais should never have existed. Kordillus Drakon should've stayed in Tevinter and never founded an empire in the first place. Founding an empire is an inherently aggressive act. 2. You've mischaracterised my argument entirely. I never said that BioWare was trying to make humanity seem good and everyone else seem bad. I said they keep offering excuses for genocide. Interesting point and I cannot say you are wrong but then Orlais not existing sounds a bit...genocidal? No they don't. Edit: Now that I am thinking about it my incredulity meter is starting to bubble up. You keep on acusing BioWare of supporting all these things or offering excuses for all these things but if the company were actually this depraved and did these things then...why would anyone support them? I mean in a personal sense of the word because I don't think I would support a company that actually did these things with my hard earned money. I haven't accused BioWare of "supporting" anything. I think they write stories this way because they are dumb. I think they, genuinely, legitimately, see no moral, logical, or narrative issue with things like, just as an example, being able to rekindle Celene and Briala's relationship when Celene *killed Briala's parents, and slaughtered an entire alienage over a stupid play*. And you can’t wipe out an empire that never got founded in the first place, come on now.
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Post by phoray on Sept 20, 2020 9:41:46 GMT
colfoleyThe ancient elves never did anything to humans. They didn't exist at the same time. "The Dalish trying to recapture their past is wrong." do you even minority?
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Post by colfoley on Sept 20, 2020 9:49:58 GMT
colfoleyThe ancient elves never did anything to humans. They didn't exist at the same time. "The Dalish trying to recapture their past is wrong." do you even minority? in my experience this is usually more of a fascination with a majority. Frustrated imperials pining over the good old days.
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Post by phoray on Sept 20, 2020 10:00:33 GMT
colfoleyThe ancient elves never did anything to humans. They didn't exist at the same time. "The Dalish trying to recapture their past is wrong." do you even minority? in my experience this is usually more of a fascination with a majority. Frustrated imperials pining over the good old days. I'm still confused. The Dalish have forgotten they were ever the equiv of the Roman Empire, so they are hardly frustrated imperials.
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Post by colfoley on Sept 20, 2020 10:18:28 GMT
in my experience this is usually more of a fascination with a majority. Frustrated imperials pining over the good old days. I'm still confused. The Dalish have forgotten they were ever the equiv of the Roman Empire, so they are hardly frustrated imperials. they are kinda the exception to the general rule even then they do know enough to pine for the days of Arlathan. Even if they get the facts wrong.
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