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Post by colfoley on Sept 12, 2020 5:14:17 GMT
The franchise is dead, people on games reddit told me. Not just a silly/absurd thing to say in the first place, but a genuinely amusing performative contradiction in the present context: i.e. participating in the flurry of interest/activity sparked by the release of some concept art from the upcoming entry in the franchise... to say that "the franchise is dead", without irony. If the franchise were dead in any meaningful sense whatsoever, we wouldn't be having this conversation and this thread wouldn't exist, obviously. took the words right out of my mouth.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Sept 12, 2020 6:41:50 GMT
No shit, Sherlock; that's sort of what an opinion is, and your own contrary view no less so. I disagree, because I don't talk on the personal level, or when I do talk on the personal level, I am making the distinction of it. In the greater scheme, a well written character, when they don't accomplish anything with their presence, but rather actively put people off, with no redeeming qualities, especially in an interactive medium, where the entire content can be developed and skipped en masse, does the writer succeed? The answer is no. Therefore, it is not as well written as the situation requires. Actually it isn't, because the quality and nature of the characters was precisely the topic of the present conversation And while your enjoyment of them is subjective, the quality of them is not. As is your own view on the importance of sticking to the lore. Not sure how you've not realized that this "that's just your opinion" shtick cuts both ways, and is irrelevant/redundant to begin with since the fact that we are expressing and discussing our own views and opinions on these topics is an obvious premise that goes without saying here. Could have saved yourself the trouble of writing this non-response response if that was all you had to say. I still can't believe how you view the lore as something to be regularly ignored and rewritten, just to fit an ephemeral writer's mood swing. Even Gaider left the company. Now, anyone can do whatever, with no regards to the lore, when the lore doesn't matter. Tell you what, pretend that I am the new lead writer of Dragon Age. Now, the corruption of magic does not exist and it turns everyone into cute, fluffy bunnies. It just changed. This is Dragon Age now. Also, "the franchise is dead"- okie (I expect that's going to come as unfortunate news to all the people currently working on and/or looking forward to the next entry in the franchise) The franchise is damaged and greatly devalued. Engagement is at an all time low, nobody remember where they left off and at the only other option being of replaying Inquisition, people don't want to play it. Whatever this "alive" state for the franchise is, its not a very good one.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 12, 2020 6:51:38 GMT
And while your enjoyment of them is subjective, the quality of them is not. Of course it is, and by the very same token. Its a value judgment and a question of taste, no less than whether Coke is better than Pepsi, or whether chocolate ice cream is good or not, and so entirely subjective. I mean c'mon, this isn't even a serious claim you're making here.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 12, 2020 6:54:55 GMT
In the greater scheme, a well written character, when they don't accomplish anything with their presence, but rather actively put people off, with no redeeming qualities, especially in an interactive medium, where the entire content can be developed and skipped en masse, does the writer succeed? The answer is no. Therefore, it is not as well written as the situation requires. (and similarly here- literally all of this is purely subjective, a question of taste and of normative judgment not of fact)
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Post by DragonKingReborn on Sept 12, 2020 7:06:36 GMT
Just to be clear, not every post needs to be 'full on doom and gloom', but posters are welcome to share their skepticism. We're not looking to get into fights with fan-boys/girls in this thread, mostly ignore them if they swing by, or direct them to their thread: The Dragon Age 4 Hype Train - bsn.boards.net/thread/18445Just a reminder. This is a thread for people who have concerns about Dragon Age 4. While those who disagree with those concerns are entitled to engage, briefly, this isn’t a thread for prolonged debate about the concerns. Likewise, the Hype thread is not for those concerned to come in and determinedly rain on the parade of the “Hyped”. Thanks.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Sept 12, 2020 10:07:43 GMT
I'm sorry, but that's not how it works. Your inability, or your lack of want, to separate yourself from the product, is why I cannot, in good faith, take your viewpoint under consideration. How you feel toward a character on a personal level is not a judge of quality. If you cannot consider why the character fails and why the character doesn't work, for the purpose the character was written for, which makes the character badly written, this conversation has no merit.
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Post by ClarkKent on Sept 12, 2020 10:57:20 GMT
I'm worried that there will be a shortage of likeable and popular characters like Blackwall.
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Post by Kappa Neko on Sept 12, 2020 14:47:48 GMT
Completely subjective opinion. What you consider robust on a personal level is irrelevant, because as a product of mass consumption, your personal enjoyment is of far less importance to the sum. And the sum doesn't even remember what these people are about. Conversation about DA is dead. You know, for some reason I never realized how much of a troll you were until recently... I thought you were actually serious about your fabricated "evidence". But now it's getting too ridiculous. I'd like to see a recent poll where at least half of the few million people who bought DAI participated and stated that the companions were so bland that they can't remember anything about them and how they have zero interest in DA4. Doesn't exist? Huh. I'm the last person to voice confidence in current Bioware and DA4 but DAI was successful and popular. As long as there's romances for everyone, DA4 has an audience.
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Post by Sartoz on Sept 12, 2020 15:07:39 GMT
I'm worried that there will be a shortage of likeable and popular characters like Blackwall.
LOl,
Blackwall was a companion for a short while. The dialogue wasn't interesting so I dumped him.
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Post by Sartoz on Sept 12, 2020 15:27:58 GMT
Completely subjective opinion. What you consider robust on a personal level is irrelevant, because as a product of mass consumption, your personal enjoyment is of far less importance to the sum. And the sum doesn't even remember what these people are about. Conversation about DA is dead. Snip I'm the last person to voice confidence in current Bioware and DA4 but DAI was successful and popular. As long as there's romances for everyone, DA4 has an audience.
Hm.. DA:I is less interesting to me than DA:O and DA2 for reasons....
What sells today, imo, is the ESRB Rating of:
Blood and Gore Partial nudity Sexual Content Strong Language Violence
That rating, automatically ensures sales for the majority of the target audience. Since I believe DA4 will have such a rating.. it will sell well enough but not because it contains romances.
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Post by Kappa Neko on Sept 12, 2020 15:44:21 GMT
I'm worried that there will be a shortage of likeable and popular characters like Blackwall.
LOl,
Blackwall was a companion for a short while. The dialogue wasn't interesting so I dumped him.
I thought it was well done sarcasm and was about to like the comment. But I wasn't sure...
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Post by SirSourpuss on Sept 12, 2020 17:15:42 GMT
I'd like to see a recent poll where at least half of the few million people who bought DAI participated and stated that the companions were so bland that they can't remember anything about them and how they have zero interest in DA4. Doesn't exist? Huh. I seriously doubt that the out of the ~50% of people who bought the game and didn't even finish it and haven't touched it since, remember what the games was about or who was in it. When your customer base is ~2.5 million people and the game was six years ago, I doubt you can find half a million people that fit the criteria to take the test. I'm the last person to voice confidence in current Bioware and DA4 but DAI was successful and popular. As long as there's romances for everyone, DA4 has an audience. I don't think the romances, especially the DA:I ones, are a hook for the audience. I have said it many times before, I have no interest in the next batch of Joss Whedon's rejects that Bioware seems to think make for good companions and Joss Whedon hasn't been good since Firefly ended.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 12, 2020 21:15:25 GMT
I'm sorry, but that's not how it works. Your inability, or your lack of want, to separate yourself from the product, is why I cannot, in good faith, take your viewpoint under consideration. How you feel toward a character on a personal level is not a judge of quality. If you cannot consider why the character fails and why the character doesn't work, for the purpose the character was written for, which makes the character badly written, this conversation has no merit. (and yes, that most definitely is how it works: judgments about what is good, bad, beautiful, ugly, what constitutes high or low quality, good or bad writing, and so on are all value judgments, they are normative- they are purely subjective matters of taste, which can and do vary from subject to subject- hence the subjectivity. But you're certainly right that your inability to appreciate this basic fact limits your ability to contribute to this or other conversations, and so continuing here has little merit)
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Post by Deleted on Sept 12, 2020 21:24:49 GMT
I'm worried that there will be a shortage of likeable and popular characters like Blackwall. I'm worried that we'll get screwed out of having a dog/mabari companion yet again. Dog's cut-scenes in camp in Origins were some of the best companion interactions in the whole game...
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Post by DragonKingReborn on Sept 12, 2020 21:42:07 GMT
I'm worried that there will be a shortage of likeable and popular characters like Blackwall. I'm worried that we'll get screwed out of having a dog/mabari companion yet again. Dog's cut-scenes in camp in Origins were some of the best companion interactions in the whole game... Unfortunately, probably a valid concern, given that we’ll be in Northern Thedas, and Mabari are a Fereldan breed (as far as I know).
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Post by Deleted on Sept 12, 2020 21:51:14 GMT
I'm worried that we'll get screwed out of having a dog/mabari companion yet again. Dog's cut-scenes in camp in Origins were some of the best companion interactions in the whole game... Unfortunately, probably a valid concern, given that we’ll be in Northern Thedas, and Mabari are a Fereldan breed (as far as I know). It doesn't have to be a mabari, any canine companion will do! Don't 'Vints have dogs? Or maybe Cullen's mabari from Trespasser joins the shadow Inquisition or something? I don't care about the specifics, I just want a dog companion again...
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Post by SirSourpuss on Sept 12, 2020 21:52:50 GMT
and yes, that most definitely is how it works: judgments about what is good, bad, beautiful, ugly, what constitutes high or low quality, good or bad writing, and so on are all value judgments, they are normative- they are purely subjective matters of taste Actually, they are not. With minor fluctuations, they are, for the most part, universal. There has been extensive testing on this. We've had tests on this since the 60s. Especially for the standards of beauty. So that is easily disproven. But you're certainly right that your inability to appreciate this basic fact limits your ability to contribute to this or other conversations, and so continuing here has little merit) Oh, you ... naughty, naughty.
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Post by colfoley on Sept 12, 2020 21:56:09 GMT
Unfortunately, probably a valid concern, given that we’ll be in Northern Thedas, and Mabari are a Fereldan breed (as far as I know). It doesn't have to be a mabari, any canine companion will do! Don't 'Vints have dogs? Or maybe Cullen's mabari from Trespasser joins the shadow Inquisition or something? I don't care about the specifics, I just want a dog companion again... well I think based on lore the mabari were a Tevinter experiment in the first place.
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Post by OhDaniGirl on Sept 12, 2020 21:57:13 GMT
I'm worried that we'll get screwed out of having a dog/mabari companion yet again. Dog's cut-scenes in camp in Origins were some of the best companion interactions in the whole game... Unfortunately, probably a valid concern, given that we’ll be in Northern Thedas, and Mabari are a Fereldan breed (as far as I know). I thought they were Tevinter in origin? Wiki
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Post by Deleted on Sept 12, 2020 22:08:05 GMT
and yes, that most definitely is how it works: judgments about what is good, bad, beautiful, ugly, what constitutes high or low quality, good or bad writing, and so on are all value judgments, they are normative- they are purely subjective matters of taste Actually, they are not. With minor fluctuations, they are, for the most part, universal. There has been extensive testing on this. We've had tests on this since the 60s. Especially for the standards of beauty. So that is easily disproven. Yeah sorry that's not what subjectivity is, its not a matter of consensus or taking a poll, and universality is not the same as objectivity. Every single person in the world could agree that, say, chocolate ice cream is better than strawberry... and it would still remain a subject-dependent value-judgment. In other words, subjective. Pretty basic stuff here, tbh.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 12, 2020 22:10:12 GMT
Unfortunately, probably a valid concern, given that we’ll be in Northern Thedas, and Mabari are a Fereldan breed (as far as I know). I thought they were Tevinter in origin? Wiki
Edit: Oh nice, I didn't remember this. But if they're from Tevinter, we damn well better have one as a companion!
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Post by colfoley on Sept 12, 2020 23:07:05 GMT
I thought they were Tevinter in origin? Wiki
Edit: Oh nice, I didn't remember this. But if they're from Tevinter, we damn well better have one as a companion! wellll its been a long time since I have actually read the relevant lore (and am too lazy now ) but from what I remember they are either A. a local Ferelden dog which the Imperium magicked and then they (the dogs) betrayed them. Or B. A local Ferelden Dog which they crossbred with one from the Imperium and then they betrayed them. Also keep in mind that this lore is a Ferelden ledgend so may not be one hundred percent accurate. Appropro though I agree with your desire and then some. I've said on more then one occasion I want them to readd pets to the game...maybe not as full born companions...but I would love summonable pets ala DA 2. But also add more then just dogs/ mabari but other things like hawks, Eagles...cats.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Sept 12, 2020 23:19:05 GMT
Yeah sorry that's not what subjectivity is My point exactly.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 12, 2020 23:24:23 GMT
Oh nice, I didn't remember this. But if they're from Tevinter, we damn well better have one as a companion! wellll its been a long time since I have actually read the relevant lore (and am too lazy now ) but from what I remember they are either A. a local Ferelden dog which the Imperium magicked and then they (the dogs) betrayed them. Or B. A local Ferelden Dog which they crossbred with one from the Imperium and then they betrayed them. Also keep in mind that this lore is a Ferelden ledgend so may not be one hundred percent accurate. Appropro though I agree with your desire and then some. I've said on more then one occasion I want them to readd pets to the game...maybe not as full born companions...but I would love summonable pets ala DA 2. But also add more then just dogs/ mabari but other things like hawks, Eagles...cats. Yeah I'd be perfectly fine with having a dog as a pet/summons rather than a full-blown companion. I'm not picky: just give us a dog, goddamit! On a slightly different note, it would also be really cool if they brought back shapeshifting as a mage ability/specialization.
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Post by linksocarina on Sept 13, 2020 0:06:21 GMT
I'm sorry, but that's not how it works. Your inability, or your lack of want, to separate yourself from the product, is why I cannot, in good faith, take your viewpoint under consideration. How you feel toward a character on a personal level is not a judge of quality. If you cannot consider why the character fails and why the character doesn't work, for the purpose the character was written for, which makes the character badly written, this conversation has no merit. That is a very draconian methodology for writing though, because it is predicated on the authorial intent being the sole important factor of characterization. Yet a lot of folks tend to be very contradictory of authorial intent. Personally I think it's important to consider the point of view of the author, but art as interpreted by others versus the author is equally valid due to the emotional investment put into the characterization of an individual. Kind of like how Aslan in Chronicles of Narnia is basically Lion Jesus, as intended by Lewis, so the only reading of Aslan would basically be a Christian parable as a character to judge on. He would, it seems by the above, be a well-written character since Lewis was consistent with the allegory of what Aslan was. Yet, id argue Aslan is a poorly written character because he is constrained to that singular view and has a too narrow and sanctimonious edge to them. He was always, to me, the worst part about the Narnia series due of that, a Gary Stu, if you will. I'm not sure if that is a justifiable argument, ultimately, regarding the quality of a characters writing since that criteria doesn't allow for nuance, it seems.
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