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Post by Kappa Neko on Jun 18, 2024 11:50:42 GMT
Coming back to Morrigan: She's the perfect example of missed potential. Every single intriguing storyline she's had couldn't go anywhere because it was a player choice. The old god baby? Merely a normal boy in DAI because it cannot be canon without disrespecting everyone's choices. Ugh. Morrigan drank from the well? Oops, again a player choice that keeps us from doing anything with it. BioWare fucked Morrigan over long before DAV. She's the character who had the most potential for an amazing character arc and they blew it. This is a huge issue with Dragon Age. So many choices mean fuck all. Choices are great and all in theory but why come up with intriguing possibilities that they must have known meant nothing. You cannot write a series like this. This is great for standalone games but not a series where the player hopes for a great arc spanning multiple games where things that happened at some point have implications for the future. BioWare have written themselves into dead ends with so many storylines by not making them canon.
...then again they also decided to retcon Lelianna's possible death so she could have a cool character development in DAI. I didn't like Lelianna in DAO but loved her unhinged in DAI. BioWare just makes shit up as they go. So it shouldn't surprise me that they're ditching Morrigan and are just going forward with the most basic story beats from DAI, namely Solas bringing down the veil and some other elven god shenanigans.
I guess it no longer matters that Mythal wanted to pass on her godhood to Morrigan and all the implications of that... THAT is canon. Morrigan is canon alive. So fucking do something meaningful with her at last!
Ugh. I need to stop. There's no point wasting energy on BioWare at this point. Gaider isn't even with BioWare anymore to write Morrigan. I just REALLY hate unfinished or badly finished stories. If Dragon Age was finished I wouldn't give a flying fuck about what BioWare does at this point.
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Post by saandrig on Jun 18, 2024 12:43:03 GMT
It was my belief or impression that EA pushed Anthem out the door and then forced Bioware to abandon it rather than fix it... That crap was unfixable. There wasn't a single patch that didn't break at least as many things as it allegedly fixed. The code was absolute spaghetti - old "fixed" issues very often popped back again after a new patch. Patches that were supposed to buff abilities ended up nerfing them instead. The developers couldn't make heads or tails of their own creation.
The Anthem livestreams became memes after developers ran into the same issues that were were advertised as fixed. It was so bad that Bioware canceled a livestream at the last minute with a hilarious excuse of "street cables got cut".
The whole "Anthem 2" thing was a small team trying to figure if there was a way to actually fix anything without starting from the ground up again. It was obvious the answer is "No". And since EA wasn't going to fund an entirely new game for an already tainted franchise...well...
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Post by Iakus on Jun 18, 2024 13:14:46 GMT
Coming back to Morrigan: She's the perfect example of missed potential. Every single intriguing storyline she's had couldn't go anywhere because it was a player choice. The old god baby? Merely a normal boy in DAI because it cannot be canon without disrespecting everyone's choices. Ugh. Morrigan drank from the well? Oops, again a player choice that keeps us from doing anything with it. BioWare fucked Morrigan over long before DAV. She's the character who had the most potential for an amazing character arc and they blew it. This is a huge issue with Dragon Age. So many choices mean fuck all. Choices are great and all in theory but why come up with intriguing possibilities that they must have known meant nothing. You cannot write a series like this. This is great for standalone games but not a series where the player hopes for a great arc spanning multiple games where things that happened at some point have implications for the future. BioWare have written themselves into dead ends with so many storylines by not making them canon. ...then again they also decided to retcon Lelianna's possible death so she could have a cool character development in DAI. I didn't like Lelianna in DAO but loved her unhinged in DAI. BioWare just makes shit up as they go. So it shouldn't surprise me that they're ditching Morrigan and are just going forward with the most basic story beats from DAI, namely Solas bringing down the veil and some other elven god shenanigans. I guess it no longer matters that Mythal wanted to pass on her godhood to Morrigan and all the implications of that... THAT is canon. Morrigan is canon alive. So fucking do something meaningful with her at last! Ugh. I need to stop. There's no point wasting energy on BioWare at this point. Gaider isn't even with BioWare anymore to write Morrigan. I just REALLY hate unfinished or badly finished stories. If Dragon Age was finished I wouldn't give a flying fuck about what BioWare does at this point. This is why I say that choices should only matter in the game you made them in. If you're waiting for a later game for the consequences to become apparent, you're just being set up for disappointment, because for every choice that's made, someone making a DIFFERENT choice has to be accounted for.
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Post by Kappa Neko on Jun 18, 2024 13:25:57 GMT
This is why I say that choices should only matter in the game you made them in. If you're waiting for a later game for the consequences to become apparent, you're just being set up for disappointment, because for every choice that's made, someone making a DIFFERENT choice has to be accounted for. Sure, my point is those shouldn't have been choices. They should have been canon to make the story better.
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Post by grallon on Jun 18, 2024 17:43:38 GMT
Ugh. I need to stop. There's no point wasting energy on BioWare at this point. Gaider isn't even with BioWare anymore to write Morrigan. I just REALLY hate unfinished or badly finished stories. If Dragon Age was finished I wouldn't give a flying fuck about what BioWare does at this point.
I was wondering about Morrigan, hoping she'd get at least a cameo but with the Black post you mentioned... It appears as though they decided to cut this integral part of the lore in order to focus on the fight against Solas & the Evanuris. I guess we'll have to wait and see. Although I'm now even more concerned about continuity and consistency.
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Post by our_lady_of_darkness on Jun 18, 2024 18:08:46 GMT
This is why I say that choices should only matter in the game you made them in. If you're waiting for a later game for the consequences to become apparent, you're just being set up for disappointment, because for every choice that's made, someone making a DIFFERENT choice has to be accounted for. Also, you never know if there's going to be the next game. Right now that's my main issue with MEA, for example: some seemingly important decisions were never addressed because there was no continuation, which effectively discourages me from replaying the game.
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Post by Guardian on Jun 18, 2024 22:52:13 GMT
This is why I say that choices should only matter in the game you made them in. If you're waiting for a later game for the consequences to become apparent, you're just being set up for disappointment, because for every choice that's made, someone making a DIFFERENT choice has to be accounted for.Sure, my point is those shouldn't have been choices. They should have been canon to make the story better. Sadly, while I understand what your point is, the bolded point is the one that has been driving things for a while now at BioWare. I'm not thrilled they decided to just make Leliana a lyrium ghost apparently, because she is my favorite character. So, much like that, they probably decided that it wasn't Morrigan that drank from the well, but the Inquisitor instead, which further leads me to believe now that they're the one that will be taking a dirt nap come Veilguard, and not Varric (I don't care if the Inquisitor does or not; I was never attached to them anyway). Them pretty much phasing out the Keep is starting to become apparent, because they no longer seem to want to validate player choices or decisions (I have just theories and speculations as to when and why this is, but this isn't the place for them). It seems like the BioWare of old is really gone now, despite what those say about doubters being "too negative". Also, you never know if there's going to be the next game. Right now that's my main issue with MEA, for example: some seemingly important decisions were never addressed because there was no continuation, which effectively discourages me from replaying the game. As I've stated many times in this thread - Veilguard is make-or-break for BioWare. Andromeda did them no favors, and Anthem was pretty much DoA. We all know EA is expecting crazy numbers for this game to be "successful", but I don't see it happening. It can be successful, like the original DAO and the ME Trilogy, but not the inflated numbers EA is expecting. I hate to say it, but, this is probably the last ride for BioWare, and those that didn't get fired, saw the writing on the wall and decided to get out while they could. Except Hudson - I still lay a lot of the blame at his feet for the flaming wreck we're in now (again....this is not the time or place to get into that).
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Post by xerrai on Jun 18, 2024 23:36:37 GMT
As I've stated many times in this thread - Veilguard is make-or-break for BioWare. Andromeda did them no favors, and Anthem was pretty much DoA. We all know EA is expecting crazy numbers for this game to be "successful", but I don't see it happening. It can be successful, like the original DAO and the ME Trilogy, but not the inflated numbers EA is expecting. I hate to say it, but, this is probably the last ride for BioWare, and those that didn't get fired, saw the writing on the wall and decided to get out while they could. Except Hudson - I still lay a lot of the blame at his feet for the flaming wreck we're in now (again....this is not the time or place to get into that). I hate to say it, but this is more or less my take as well. But you would think the people inside may know that as well. God knows that DA has a checkered history when it comes to game production. If they were ambitious, they would make DA4 the finale for the story of Thedas. But the lack of importance in the Keep puts a serious dent in that hope. Still, if the series ended by dealing with the Evanuris...that wouldn't be too bad honestly provided that they answered at least some questions about the Old Gods. That may be the best we can hope for at this point. It won't be the best banger of an ending, but it can fill in a good portion of knowledge about how and why the world is the way it is (especially since elves seem to be tied to everything relevant in ancient times). Better for it to be that instead of ending on an obvious cliffhanger that brings attention to plot threads from previous entries that will never be resolved on account of Bioware going under.
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Post by githcheater on Jun 18, 2024 23:50:00 GMT
Why are we cursed to have strategic RPGs (BG3, DOS, PF, PoE) with only average or lower graphics, while the hack & slash action RPGs (DAI, DAVe, Skyrim, Witcher 3) get excellent graphics?
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Post by jennica on Jun 19, 2024 0:26:54 GMT
Why are we cursed to have strategic RPGs (BG3, DOS, PF, PoE) with only average or lower graphics, while the hack & slash action RPGs (DAI, DAVe, Skyrim, Witcher 3) get excellent graphics? BG3 has good graphics tho.
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Post by Guardian on Jun 19, 2024 1:51:06 GMT
Why are we cursed to have strategic RPGs (BG3, DOS, PF, PoE) with only average or lower graphics, while the hack & slash action RPGs (DAI, DAVe, Skyrim, Witcher 3) get excellent graphics? BG3 has good graphics tho.
Agreed; BG3 looked great, as did Witcher 3 and to an extent Veilguard. Skyrim....no....since I always use graphic enhancing mods to make it look good, and Inquisition makes everything just look "wet"
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Post by eternalambiguity on Jun 19, 2024 4:52:27 GMT
Why are we cursed to have strategic RPGs (BG3, DOS, PF, PoE) with only average or lower graphics, while the hack & slash action RPGs (DAI, DAVe, Skyrim, Witcher 3) get excellent graphics? Beyond some minimum reached well over a decade ago, graphics don't matter, and obsessing over them is one of the biggest problems with the industry. Anyone focused on them should be summarily ignored.
It might be a wait for sale for me. After Andromeda I didn't think that would happen for Edmonton but here we are. Dime-a-dozen hack and slash is not why I play Dragon Age games, and - as said elsewhere - absent the unique tactics-based combat of the previous games, there's less and less that makes this worth full price.
Disappointing to see Darrah putting down their previous games just to prop this one up.
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The Elder King
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Post by The Elder King on Jun 19, 2024 5:07:52 GMT
Why are we cursed to have strategic RPGs (BG3, DOS, PF, PoE) with only average or lower graphics, while the hack & slash action RPGs (DAI, DAVe, Skyrim, Witcher 3) get excellent graphics? Beyond some minimum reached well over a decade ago, graphics don't matter, and obsessing over them is one of the biggest problems with the industry. Anyone focused on them should be summarily ignored.
It might be a wait for sale for me. After Andromeda I didn't think that would happen for Edmonton but here we are. Dime-a-dozen hack and slash is not why I play Dragon Age games, and - as said elsewhere - absent the unique tactics-based combat of the previous games, there's less and less that makes this worth full price.
Disappointing to see Darrah putting down their previous games just to prop this one up.
He's referring to combat alone, and while I can understand his opinion about this game's gameplay being more fun to play for him, possibly, it is a huge matter of perspective. Even if this one turns out to be an excellent action-based gameplay, something that is often missed during this discussion is that for a number of player it isn't a matter of the quality of the gameplay, but the type of gameplay. There are people that don't want/don't enjoy action-based gameplay in their RPGs, and that's completely fair. I'd also say that the gameplay in Veilguard is so different from the previous games that it can't really be categorized in the same type, so better or worse don't really apply in generic terms. I do have a preference for turn-based or RtwP gameplay in RPGs, but I can enjoy or go through an excellent RPG with an action based gameplay (TW2/TW3 fall completely on the latter for me, for example), so I don't mind *that* much the shift...but again, the way they're talking, praising and describing the change don't really get to the core issue for a group of players, as I mentioned earlier. One thing that I find a bit weird, and might hurt them with the players that prefer an action-based gameplay, is that the higher difficulties seem, from what they're saying, to require a deeper use of the combat wheel and pause.
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Post by helios969 on Jun 19, 2024 8:24:12 GMT
One thing that I find a bit weird, and might hurt them with the players that prefer an action-based gameplay, is that the higher difficulties seem, from what they're saying, to require a deeper use of the combat wheel and pause. I'm skeptical that it'll be that difficult save for maybe the truly insane people who turn on friendly fire. But part of what makes combat fun to me is having a wide range of enemies using different tactics (or the illusion of such)...just arbitrarily buffing the same enemy or increasing their damage output is very boring...and lame. On the flip side I have to give them credit since those that don't like action based combat or just play for the story can set it for uber easy or even have their PC not die.
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Post by therevanchist25 on Jun 19, 2024 9:02:12 GMT
Coming back to Morrigan: She's the perfect example of missed potential. Every single intriguing storyline she's had couldn't go anywhere because it was a player choice. The old god baby? Merely a normal boy in DAI because it cannot be canon without disrespecting everyone's choices. Ugh. Morrigan drank from the well? Oops, again a player choice that keeps us from doing anything with it. BioWare fucked Morrigan over long before DAV. She's the character who had the most potential for an amazing character arc and they blew it. This is a huge issue with Dragon Age. So many choices mean fuck all. Choices are great and all in theory but why come up with intriguing possibilities that they must have known meant nothing. You cannot write a series like this. This is great for standalone games but not a series where the player hopes for a great arc spanning multiple games where things that happened at some point have implications for the future. BioWare have written themselves into dead ends with so many storylines by not making them canon. ...then again they also decided to retcon Lelianna's possible death so she could have a cool character development in DAI. I didn't like Lelianna in DAO but loved her unhinged in DAI. BioWare just makes shit up as they go. So it shouldn't surprise me that they're ditching Morrigan and are just going forward with the most basic story beats from DAI, namely Solas bringing down the veil and some other elven god shenanigans. I guess it no longer matters that Mythal wanted to pass on her godhood to Morrigan and all the implications of that... THAT is canon. Morrigan is canon alive. So fucking do something meaningful with her at last! Ugh. I need to stop. There's no point wasting energy on BioWare at this point. Gaider isn't even with BioWare anymore to write Morrigan. I just REALLY hate unfinished or badly finished stories. If Dragon Age was finished I wouldn't give a flying fuck about what BioWare does at this point. Not sure why this is so surprising. Hawke went to Weisshaupt like a million years ago, nothing will happen because Hawke might of died in the Fade. Remember the talking Darkspawn? Yea well Bioware sure as hell don't. Awakening just got deleted from canon basically. The only proof Awakening ever happend is Anders vaguely mentioning it. The entire Keep has been yeeted. This is clearly not an RPG franchise anymore. It's an action adventure franchise where you make arbitrary choices that the devs arbitrarily ignore. FFS the game isn't even going to be about Solas because now he's "trapped in the fade" because yea...that's totally the type of plot we wanted Bioware...yep.
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Post by helios969 on Jun 19, 2024 9:26:50 GMT
Remember the talking Darkspawn? Yea well Bioware sure as hell don't. I think there's a good chance you'll see that in this game...but I know what you mean. In the grand scheme of this series the choices really get distilled.
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Post by The Elder King on Jun 19, 2024 9:34:31 GMT
FFS the game isn't even going to be about Solas because now he's "trapped in the fade" because yea...that's totally the type of plot we wanted Bioware...yep. I'd say it's unlikely Solas will be trapped for the entirety of the game inside. I'm more concerned of Bioware forcing to work and accept him more so then him having an important part in the story (which I think he'll do). I think a reasonable thing to do with this scenario, is to at least offer a similar 'freedom' in determing the relationship with him as ME2 did between Shepard and The Illusive Man. I did personally want Bioware to explore the Evanuris, and always thought they'd have an important role in this game. There were some hints towards this, like the concept art of the party fighting what could very well look like a boss form of Ghilain'nan, or the voice at the end of last year's teaser. So in that regards, I'm very interested in the game exploring the Evanuris and having them in antagonistic role. I do have, again, concerns for Solas' role, though, and I'd have tried to go for a different opening and way to reach the post-opening situation. I'd also say that, based on the opening and what GI covers, it makes zero sense for Solas to not try, at least, to explain what he was about to do and why he needed to do it to Varric/Inquisitor.
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Post by Kappa Neko on Jun 19, 2024 9:41:52 GMT
Even if Morrigan didn't drink from the well canonically, she is still canon Mythal's protegee and the person she wanted to pass her godhood to. And she DID pass a part of herself to Morrigan through the eluvian. So if this story thread goes nowhere I'll be royally pissed.
It's BAD storytelling to just abandon major plot points. Bad enough they had so many cool ideas go nowhere because player choice. But just abandoning stuff that was carried through 3 games is just insulting.
But I won't be surprised if DAV is a huge middle finger to everything that came before because new players won't care and we don't want them to be confused now.
I hope they at least wrap the elven storyline up SOMEHOW this game and I also hope they reveal the elven gods are the old gods so that we don't have that hot mess never resolved because BioWare got shut down at last. Just finish this story so I can ignore what BioWare does in the future if they are still around. Don't care a lick about the next Mass Effect. I just want Dragon Aged to conclude. Even if the game sucks it's better than no closure at all.
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Post by Liepsnele on Jun 19, 2024 9:56:45 GMT
Agreed, I wish they would wrap up the elven storyline in this game and move on to something else in DA5 (if they plan to make it that is). Thedas is so rich in lore and there are so many things that could be explored, like the qunari, the Executors, political plotlines - what will even happen to mages in Southern Thedas since each of the possible divines has a different view on the circles and templars? I hope it gets addressed in some way since Mage-Templar war had such a big build up in DA2 and the books that followed it.
Anyway, I'm really excited to play Veilguard and want to see how the elven story ends since I waited 10 years for it but I'm also getting a bit sick of everything being tied to the elves in the end.
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Post by Kappa Neko on Jun 19, 2024 10:35:25 GMT
I'm also getting a bit sick of everything being tied to the elves in the end. I'm not. I thought the big elven gods reveal in the last third of DAI was amazing. It came as a total surprise to me because I was never that deep into the lore. I was always way more of a Mass Effect fangirl. I also have a poor memory for details. So DAI kinda blew my mind. I thought the Corypheus plot was really bad, cringe cartoon villain, but then the elven gods business really saved the narrative big time. Everything at the Temple of Mythal and the well was perhaps my favorite thing in all of Dragon Age. It felt like, wow, they actually DID plan this out and didn't just make stuff up as they went along. It all came together for me. I loved it. As awesome as DAO was in many ways, it had a super generic plot. And the art style was not particularly noteworthy either. It was the individual character drama that was great. Now DA2 on the other hand had a much better plot, I loved the smaller focus on a city going crazy and the Hawke family. I also love Hawke while I never cared for the warden (I can't connect much with silent protagonists) or inky. I am fine with DAV being all about Solas and the elven gods. I just worry the writing will not be good and that many things get ignored. And I'm especially worried this is ME2 where the plot doesn't get advanced all that much and the big resolution to the whole drama is postponed. That would really piss me off. Not because I'm tired of the elven plot but because I don't expect BioWare to last long enough to make DA5 and we'll be stuck with an unfinished story. I want answers to all these mysteries the series has been cultivating for so long. I'm tired of being strung along after all this time. I just want Dragon Age to end. At least the central mysteries around the gods and the titans. I want the "reaper" plot to be over basically. The ME trilogy was concluded in FIVE years, half the time it took them to make one more DA game, it's beyond frustrating. If BioWare survives DAV and gets to make another Dragon Age, yeah, make it a spin off story sort of like DA2. Don't care what direction they go. I might consider buying it if the writing is goods which right now I don't have much faith in anymore.
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Post by eternalambiguity on Jun 19, 2024 14:17:53 GMT
Beyond some minimum reached well over a decade ago, graphics don't matter, and obsessing over them is one of the biggest problems with the industry. Anyone focused on them should be summarily ignored.
It might be a wait for sale for me. After Andromeda I didn't think that would happen for Edmonton but here we are. Dime-a-dozen hack and slash is not why I play Dragon Age games, and - as said elsewhere - absent the unique tactics-based combat of the previous games, there's less and less that makes this worth full price.
Disappointing to see Darrah putting down their previous games just to prop this one up.
He's referring to combat alone, and while I can understand his opinion about this game's gameplay being more fun to play for him, possibly, it is a huge matter of perspective. Even if this one turns out to be an excellent action-based gameplay, something that is often missed during this discussion is that for a number of player it isn't a matter of the quality of the gameplay, but the type of gameplay. There are people that don't want/don't enjoy action-based gameplay in their RPGs, and that's completely fair. I'd also say that the gameplay in Veilguard is so different from the previous games that it can't really be categorized in the same type, so better or worse don't really apply in generic terms. I do have a preference for turn-based or RtwP gameplay in RPGs, but I can enjoy or go through an excellent RPG with an action based gameplay (TW2/TW3 fall completely on the latter for me, for example), so I don't mind *that* much the shift...but again, the way they're talking, praising and describing the change don't really get to the core issue for a group of players, as I mentioned earlier. One thing that I find a bit weird, and might hurt them with the players that prefer an action-based gameplay, is that the higher difficulties seem, from what they're saying, to require a deeper use of the combat wheel and pause. Yeah it was pretty clear he was only talking about combat - still disappointed with his reductive "combat in our old games was something you just got through" statement when that was never the sentiment expressed on the old BSN.
I am totally okay with action combat in "RPGs" - I have many hours in TW3, Skyrim, Greedfall, Elex, Vampyr, etc. I find the shift away from, again, a very unique combat system to be disappointing.
Still curious if the M&K UI makes things a little more palatable.
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Post by FiendishlyInventive on Jun 19, 2024 17:05:05 GMT
The art direction of Origins looks much more unique today in the era of colour puke. A remake hypothetically ought to look much like the Sacred Ashes trailer.
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Post by therevanchist25 on Jun 19, 2024 18:16:44 GMT
Agreed, I wish they would wrap up the elven storyline in this game and move on to something else in DA5 (if they plan to make it that is). Thedas is so rich in lore and there are so many things that could be explored, like the qunari, the Executors, political plotlines - what will even happen to mages in Southern Thedas since each of the possible divines has a different view on the circles and templars? I hope it gets addressed in some way since Mage-Templar war had such a big build up in DA2 and the books that followed it. Anyway, I'm really excited to play Veilguard and want to see how the elven story ends since I waited 10 years for it but I'm also getting a bit sick of everything being tied to the elves in the end. /s This type of reaction is actually really interesting to me, because the Ancient Elves are the entire history of Thedas. They're connected to the Titans, the Old Gods, the Blight. They are the native civilization. Whereas humans, Qunari and the Executors are all foreign entities from different lands and so is thus not ackchyually Thedas history
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Post by Liepsnele on Jun 19, 2024 19:35:37 GMT
I know that, I guess what I mean by my comment is that it was the writers decision to tie everything into ancient elves. I hope this storyline is wrapped up in the Veilguard and we can move on to something new without any cliffhangers.
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Post by necrowaif on Jun 19, 2024 20:13:46 GMT
I'll also admit some exasperation that the game is relying again on the old "elven magic to fight elven magic" trope to defeat these awakened gods. The game is set in Tevinter, the civilization that literally crushed the remnants of Arlathan - couldn't the PC bring some Tevinter knowledge or artifacts to bear against the Evanuris?
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