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Post by Reznore on Oct 26, 2024 17:51:52 GMT
When I see now leftist guys gleefully tearing TERF apart, I feel awful. Maybe you disagree with some of their point and that's ok, but the left and the right will gladly tear a new asshole to feminists. Nothing new really. 20 years on the net, there's always a new reason feminists are bad. Still smells like misogyny to me even if "righteous".
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Post by fistoffiori on Oct 26, 2024 17:58:08 GMT
And yeah, gets massively misused and thrown about as an insult by people Oh do you mean like ' incels', ' chuds', ' bigots', ' ists' & ' phobes'? Slurs I've seen thrown around on this forum and in this very thread more than once; is that what you meant? But I suppose that when the self-proclaimed 'virtuous' do it it's ah-ok? People are simply tired of the chronic hypocrisy and double-standards of the professional victims and their 'allies'. That is what most people understand the term 'woke' to mean. Fortunately, the pendulum has begun swinging back towards reality and sanity. I know you're talking generally but I can't recall me saying any of that in this thread, I KNOW that if I did, I haven't called anyone in the thread that (so if I've said it, it will have been referring to someone outside of the forum). I also don't fling terms around lightly, if I've referred to anyone by a term ending 'ist' or 'phobe' it's because they've actually been an 'ist' or 'phobe'.
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Post by witchcocktor on Oct 26, 2024 18:09:52 GMT
When I see now leftist guys gleefully tearing TERF apart, I feel awful. Maybe you disagree with some of their point and that's ok, but the left and the right will gladly tear a new asshole to feminists. Nothing new really. 20 years on the net, there's always a new reason feminists are bad. Still smells like misogyny to me even if "righteous". While there's a lot to criticize about TERFs (not because of their criticism of modern gender theory, but terfs/radical feminists have as much tendency to jump off the deep end as any other political and/or advocacy group), it's very clear that if you just put certain labels over people, even minorities and women, it's free range for people on the left to verbally abuse you and berate you and nobody thinks a second of it. It's insane the kind of hate train JK Rowling got for views that weren't even demeaning about transness. But now it's alright to wish death and physical harm over women who disagree with you? Oh okay... very leftist, feminist and pro-women of you... veeery that... But this has nothing to do with Veilguard at this point and I feel like we need to get back on track with talking about the actual game
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Post by grallon on Oct 26, 2024 18:11:22 GMT
I also don't fling terms around lightly, if I've referred to anyone by a term ending 'ist' or 'phobe' it's because they've actually been an 'ist' or 'phobe'. According to *your* lights. Your assessment is not everybody else' standards!
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Post by Kappa Neko on Oct 26, 2024 18:14:25 GMT
That's what always happens when people get preachy, they actually HARM the cause by making a whole lot of people angry and resentful of the very group the white knighting is supposed to uplift. Like those militant vegans. Nobody ever changes their mind when they're being talked down to. All you get is a petulant teenage reaction of doing the exact opposite out of spite. Which is why I also hate all those crazy man hating "feminists" who just make certain men hate women even more, sigh. And now the same people hate gays and trans for ruining their entertainment. We're going BACKWARDS imo. What these crazy activists are doing is drawing attention to the very thing we're not supposed to see anymore. Race and sexuality and religion. It's ALL about that for them. The victim mentality is a cancer because in order for there to be a victim you need to paint somebody as the oppressor. And people are tired of the whole privilege narrative. But we're not supposed to talk about this anymore or Sofa will be unhappy and we can't have that. So let's just hope at some point humanity can stop with the antagonizing and just get along. Right... This is an extremely childish point of view to me. No societal change can come from just conforming respectability politics. True action needs to be taken, and that comes from actively challenging the status quo and actively, loudly advocating for change. We can't just twiddle our thumbs until the status quo decide it's our time to slightly speak our mind but not too much so people are not hurt by the things that are brought to question, as if it was a personal attack. While we should critically examine how we approach any given subject, especially in advocacy, to be as effective as possible, there is real hurt, anger, fear, disgust and hopelessness behind those '' crazy feminists '' that '' hate men '' for example. Misogyny is real and alive. So is homophobia and racism. These are things that actively need to be combated and staying silent so the majority don't get hurt feelings is a terrible, terrible strategy. Of course these things need to be fought against in our daily lives, I just don't see that particular brand of trying to shove everyone's nose in it at all time through antagonizing in the media to be working out, to reach the very people who need to change. It just makes them even more resentful. Maybe I didn't explain it well. The western world has become so much more accepting in the past 30 or so decades without the current circus. Yes, we sadly did need (civil) wars to get black people rights in the US and elsewhere, women couldn't vote for too long either. But since then we've made great progress without some weird top down attempt to convert everyone. I don't think it's having the desired effect. Things DO change though. I believe things do get better with each generation being more open because it just becomes normal to not hate gay people for no reason. You may call me naive for believing change happens gradually and more naturally than pointing fingers at everyone. Certain people will never change, that's just how it is. But we can hope there will be fewer and fewer of them eventually. I question the method but perhaps the media gives the wrong impression because the most unhinged people on both sides of this culture war are over-represented online. The media loves antagonizing people. And that's a very dangerous thing. It's OK to not understand my point, I probably don't know how to express it right. And maybe I'm just plain wrong.
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Post by fistoffiori on Oct 26, 2024 18:18:05 GMT
I also don't fling terms around lightly, if I've referred to anyone by a term ending 'ist' or 'phobe' it's because they've actually been an 'ist' or 'phobe'. According to *your* lights. Your assessment is not everybody else' standards! Yeah, not sorry for thinking of people who (for example) hate gay people as homophobes, or someone who hates someone for the colour of their skin as racist. That's me, and that's the end of me posting on this thread probably, cyclical conversations like this genuinely give me a headache.
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Post by danaxe on Oct 26, 2024 18:20:44 GMT
I was so happy that for a while we managed to get this thread going about skepticism without the old cultural stuff thrown in the mix. It was really nice.
Now Im not saying the cultural stuff isnt part of the conversation, but it feels like this time we are just being thrown into it cause someone couldnt help themselves but bring it up just because..
Intentionally or not, it doesnt matter. Lets just get back on track before we see a closed thread that we cant find any other place. Specially when it all starts again from someone who clearly is not in this thread cause they agree with the general sentiment.
With that said:
I still cant get over the fact that Fextralife didnt get a review code. Feels weird that Wolfheart and LukeStephens didnt either. But Fextralife.... I think the marketing team doesnt even realize that not giving a review code to him might be worse than giving one and receive a bad review. That's the biggest red flag to me out of this whole issue. Would love to know if Neon Knight got a code. Cause if he didnt then a pattern can be drawn from it. If he did receive a code, then I guess its just EA Marketing doing EA marketing....
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Post by fistoffiori on Oct 26, 2024 18:22:55 GMT
Would love to know if Neon Knight got a code. Cause if he didnt then a pattern can be drawn from it. If he did receive a code, then I guess its just EA Marketing doing EA marketing.... He may have, his video came out after the codes went out.
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Post by danaxe on Oct 26, 2024 18:28:30 GMT
Would love to know if Neon Knight got a code. Cause if he didnt then a pattern can be drawn from it. If he did receive a code, then I guess its just EA Marketing doing EA marketing.... He may have, his video came out after the codes went out. Not sure that's an indication since his video was all about the 7h preview and he does say so. But would be nice if he did get a code. THAT would give me a little hope.
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Post by grallon on Oct 26, 2024 18:35:31 GMT
I still cant get over the fact that Fextralife didnt get a review code. Feels weird that Wolfheart and LukeStephens didnt either. But Fextralife.... I think the marketing team doesnt even realize that not giving a review code to him might be worse than giving one and receive a bad review. That's the biggest red flag to me out of this whole issue. Indeed. It's everywhere online now. The optics of this decision are not good at all. All it did was reinforce the opinions of the skeptics (see we're back on track) and I predict they will carry many of those still on the fence with them.
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Post by witchcocktor on Oct 26, 2024 18:37:49 GMT
In terms of review codes... it's a double-edged sword.
Send them? Content creators can completely dumpster any anticipation that is left for the game and add fuel to the already pretty bad fire of skepticism and culture wars. Don't send them? You are hiding something about the game and you do not actually believe in your product enough to put it in the hands of reviewers, which just looks bad for the company.
Luke Stephens is right in that there isn't really enough of a big, big fanbase for content creators that will excitedly devour DAV and give it a safe score even if they end up disappointed so they BW is kind of forced to broaden their horizon if they really want to broaden their horizon in terms of audience, but I also found the '' Oh I am good without a review code, really, I can just play more Monster Hunter, I am completely fine HAHAHA '' bit pretty irritating and like... yeah maybe it was for the better you didn't get a code. Kidding, kidding!... kinda...
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Post by Kappa Neko on Oct 26, 2024 18:38:47 GMT
There's no official list of who got codes, right? I don't really have any favorite reviewers for anything. So I don't even know whose opinion I would trust or not. For most games I just watch some gameplay, browse a few user reviews on Steam or something and then make my decision.
I'll probably try to discern which ones give levelheaded vibes and are made by people who've played all games and are true fans, rather than click bait grifters.
In the end I'll need to play this game myself. Even if the reception is mixed I'll buy it. I'm mostly having a moral dilemma between not wanting to reward BioWare for a game that I might deem mediocre and wanting to play it with everyone on BSN so I can chime in. Whether or not BioWare gets my money is irreverent for the bottom line. This game will sell fine no matter what some long term fans might think about it. I think it's the second best non free to play top seller on Steam by now? So not buying the game or buying it cheap in a year only punished *me* and robs me of participating in the post launch discussions... Sigh. I hate this right now, lol.
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Post by q5tyhj on Oct 26, 2024 19:08:29 GMT
"Woke" means, and has always meant, something like: an awareness of systemic and historical injustices and inequities. Basic stuff like us murderdeathkilling natives in the USA, or slavery, or redlining, or whatever. Reactionaries and bigots mis-use the term, including/especially in the context of media, as a catch-all for "anything me no like", usually the mere existence of gays, non-whites, trans/non-binary/etc, women in positions of power, etc etc. The usual stuff that triggers those sorts of people. Typically, if something is described as "woke", that's an unequivocally good sign since its either actually woke (good), or at least triggers the anti-woke crybabies (funny): both are good things, albeit different. Yup, and this is the only actual definition of woke. It's actually from quite a long while ago, like the mid-20th century. And yeah, gets massively misused and thrown about as an insult by people A: Have no idea of the real definition, and B: Don't realise most people that are called woke are unlikely to be offended by being called "woke" given the real definition of the word in the context. Yep. Its funny when people try to use it as an insult, because the word "woke" in English, denotes something unequivocally good: knowing something. Being anti-woke is being opposed to knowing basic history, or crying when people bring it up. Which we see quite a lot.
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Post by abedsbrother on Oct 26, 2024 19:08:50 GMT
Oh I agree with you. If only it stopped somewhere in the middle. That being said, and I couldn't quote you which physics law this relates to, but it goes something like this: a reverse momentum will be as strong as what it responds to. In other words, I believe the reaction to all the preaching, hectoring, moralizing, nagging, screeching and bullying will be as brutal as the push towards enforcing the agenda was ruthless. Which will leave blokes like us, who happen to like guys, in a distinctly uncomfortable place. Now I wouldn't say enforcing the agenda was RUTHLESS.. but I get your point. But if we talk solely about video games, I wish people would just understand that... it's just video games. No matter what side you represent. It's just vidya. See, I disagree with this. Video games are alternate realities that many people immerse themselves in for a variety of reasons beyond simple entertainment. For those people, games are more than "just video games," and always were. I'd argue that both sides of the political spectrum agree, which is why the cultural battle for video games' soul has become such a vicious social conflict.
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Post by Onecrazymonkey1 on Oct 26, 2024 19:10:47 GMT
I honestly gave up on buying any game as soon as it comes out at this point, and learned my lesson with Cyberpunk and Andromeda. I'll wait for various reviews, play throughs and opinions of trusted friends who I know are going to play it. I think at this point in my life my money and time is too precious to waste. Sad to say because all Bioware games used to be a day one purchase for me, but there's too much I feel bummed about.
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Post by SofaJockey on Oct 26, 2024 19:16:35 GMT
But we're not supposed to talk about this anymore or Sofa will be unhappy As a generally zen individual it takes a good deal to make me unhappy, but yes it's probably time to close out any final civil thoughts on 'wokeness' that you cannot bear not to get off your chests, before returning to gaming matters. Thank you.
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Post by q5tyhj on Oct 26, 2024 19:18:07 GMT
And yeah, gets massively misused and thrown about as an insult by people Oh do you mean like ' incels', ' chuds', ' bigots', ' ists' & ' phobes'? You said it. But yeah, pretty much. If you have a problem with wokeness- wokeness being the acknowledgement of the historical fact of discrimination/prejduce against various groups and individuals- chances are you land pretty firmly in one of those types of boxes. Or are just a general purpose whiner/crybaby/troll. And there's definitely a few of those crying in the DA comments sections online. Otherwise, they'd just use the word to mean what it actually means, in English, if they weren't bothered by the idea that arbitrary discrimination is bad and we should do something about it. Who self-proclaims themselves virtuous? An odd strawman. And are you aware of these "self-proclaimed virtuous" systematically misusing the term "woke"? Can you give an example? It would be dumb if they did it, but I just have never seen it happen. I suppose there's a first for everything. Or were you referring to the "wokes" taking some weird 4chan or incel term and using it in a different way? A handful of people are confused, you mean. No hypocrisy or double standard, and there is no such thing as a "professional victim". I guess "Professional victim" belongs in the same bin as "crisis actor"- basically the same bullshit, emotional/conceptual pacifiers for teenagers and adults who can't handle the scary fee-fees.
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Post by q5tyhj on Oct 26, 2024 19:22:27 GMT
When I see now leftist guys gleefully tearing TERF apart, I feel awful. Maybe you disagree with some of their point and that's ok, but the left and the right will gladly tear a new asshole to feminists. Nothing new really. 20 years on the net, there's always a new reason feminists are bad. Still smells like misogyny to me even if "righteous". Oh please. TERFS aren't feminists any more than the National Socialist German Workers Party were socialists, or than Budweiser is the king of beers. Calling yourself something doesn't make it so. TERFism is an anti-trans position, it is not a position for or against feminism- their views start and end on trans issues, that's it. Its just that "Trans-Exclusionary Radical Feminist" gives more plausible deniability than idk, "Anti-Trans Activist" or "Normal Ass Bigot" or something.
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Post by akots on Oct 26, 2024 19:41:07 GMT
I honestly gave up on buying any game as soon as it comes out at this point, and learned my lesson with Cyberpunk and Andromeda. I'll wait for various reviews, play throughs and opinions of trusted friends who I know are going to play it. I think at this point in my life my money and time is too precious to waste. Sad to say because all Bioware games used to be a day one purchase for me, but there's too much I feel bummed about. Cannot agree more. I waited for 3 years, suppressing my itch to play Cuberpunk out of fear of being disappointed, and was rewarded with an outstanding game, which I thoroughly enjoyed and happily played three times for a total of 400 hours (not a single crash or major glitch running at all maxed out settings).
I also remember driving to a local Gamespot to get a copy of ME2 on the first day of the release. It was barely playable due to multiple bugs, and I was forced to put it down for a couple of weeks so it can be patched into a reasonable condition. I waited for about a month before buying Andromeda, and it was already half-priced in the Origin store, so no hard feelings or disappointments here for me since I knew very well what I was getting into. Single run through the awful campaign and about 150 hours in the multiplayer was good enough for the money I spent.
DAV is certainly worth some waiting time if it is a good game, and will be skipped if it is bad, let's say below 6-7/10 on average from at least 5 reviewers I trust based on my personal taste after they had their fill with the game for about a month or so. There are too many concerns at this time to justify a preorder or buying at release or too soon after the release.
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Post by Iakus on Oct 26, 2024 19:49:53 GMT
When I see now leftist guys gleefully tearing TERF apart, I feel awful. Maybe you disagree with some of their point and that's ok, but the left and the right will gladly tear a new asshole to feminists. Nothing new really. 20 years on the net, there's always a new reason feminists are bad. Still smells like misogyny to me even if "righteous". My final thought: That is a very good example of the definition of "woke" I gave earlier. That whole "If you're not with us you're against us, and and thus The Enemy"
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