helios969
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Post by helios969 on Oct 23, 2024 14:32:22 GMT
Cute animation...love it.
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Post by akrabra on Oct 23, 2024 16:03:17 GMT
The last few pages can be summed up by "Bioware Is not what It was" well duh. It hasnt been in 15 years. There Is a reason that DA-O and ME2 was their last high profile games. They were developed before EA got their grubby mitts on them, even If theuy published them. That started the trend chasing, which always missed the mark, but there was some hint of greatness In there with DAI and ME3. Since then we don't rightly know.
I think Veilguard has a best chance since Inquisition to do something with a hint of Bioware magic, but It was not without a battle and EA almost ruining It again.
And I rather have that hint of greatness then nothing from Bioware at all. I prefer to be glass half full rather than constantly running on empty.
Now I'll use the I feel argument. I feel that If you are still clinging to what was 15 years later, It Is time to let go! It will never be the same as It was and lamenting about It wont bring It back either.
I'll leave you to your skepticism and worries.
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Post by Kappa Neko on Oct 23, 2024 16:41:20 GMT
Yo, I only cling to the quality from 9 years ago. Trespasser was awesome! I loved ME3 aside from the last five minutes and maybe the rushed prologue. I didn't want nor expect DAO2. I just want something that isn't complete generic crap. Apparently that bar is too high these days. This thread is entertaining to me btw. It's fun in a way to be gloom and doom together, as sad as that may seem to some people. My life isn't ruined by another mediocre BioWare game. I had no expectation of greatness. Just enjoy hanging on BSN talking about the upcoming game and other games even if it's not in a positive light. I'm still being social I guess...
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Post by danaxe on Oct 23, 2024 17:17:26 GMT
Now I'll use the I feel argument. I feel that If you are still clinging to what was 15 years later, It Is time to let go! It will never be the same as It was and lamenting about It wont bring It back either. I'll leave you to your skepticism and worries. You are right. Lamenting wont bring anything back. But what about grieving together? Do fans of old Bioware not deserve a place to gather and share their woes? Say what you will, but this thread is not just a pearl in the mud, its actually the only place online (that i know of) where people who love this franchise can gather and freely talk about their skepticism and dissapointment in the current direction. Any other place you can only find 2 kinds of "communities" - the overly positive who completely silences and crushes any dissenting voices, or the completely negative who doesnt really care about the franchise or bioware. At least here I know I'm talking to people who, like me, share a passion for Dragon Age, but wont allow that passion to blind them to lack of quality and talent. Have you taken a look at r/dragon age? I always thought the term "toxic positivity" was just an expression to turn the tables on those who constantly call toxic negativity. But dear lord. That sub is wacko! Even people who go there saying good things about the game, if they mention 1 negative thing in a list of 10 positives they are immediatly shredded. Those people literally eat each other for the most ridiculous things. I know you are not arguing against what we do here. And i believe you were trying to kindly give us a reality check. But there's no need, cause we all know Bioware of old and modern Bioware are not the same. How could it be, when the team is probably 95% different now. But hope is a hard thing to kill. And even tho we know the game wont be to our liking, we can always hope and wish and complain together here
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Post by witchcocktor on Oct 23, 2024 17:43:14 GMT
I don't think Veilguard is going to be a terrible game with zero substance, but most of the changes they've made from Inquisiton (not Origins, but Inquisition, I loved Inquisition so I'm not super hard to please...) have left me completely uninterested and skeptical. And frankly, I don't care about Veilguard at all at this point. Even the Solas plotline is... eh?
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emissaryoflies
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Post by emissaryoflies on Oct 23, 2024 17:58:24 GMT
The last few pages can be summed up by "Bioware Is not what It was" well duh. It hasnt been in 15 years. There Is a reason that DA-O and ME2 was their last high profile games. They were developed before EA got their grubby mitts on them, even If theuy published them. That started the trend chasing, which always missed the mark, but there was some hint of greatness In there with DAI and ME3. Since then we don't rightly know. More than a hint. Inquisition had genuinely great moments and even won goty. Mass Effect 3 is another great game top to bottom, including dlc, with a take it or leave it ending. Couldn't disagree more. Veilguard has the worst chance at having any Bioware magic at all. They would have been better off making a free to play Anthem or a Sims spinoff. Everything about it is wrong. It appears to me an interloper. A skinwalker. Whose fault it is makes little difference at this point. There's a reason Chief Bromden suffocates McMurphy at the end of the film. And there's a reason why 'sometimes dead is better'. It doesn't need to be the same. It needs to hold to the standards set. Veilguard doesn't even pass the sniff test.
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helios969
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Post by helios969 on Oct 23, 2024 18:08:50 GMT
They were developed before EA got their grubby mitts on them While EA did not help this situation by any means I'm not willing to lay it all at their feet...or even the majority. I'm pretty sure EA didn't tell them to make ridiculous looking enemies like the darkspawn...or force them to ignore things like who drank from the well...or what appears to many to have brought the worst aspects of MEA because apparently they are incapable of learning the simplest of lessons...i.e. improper tone...DA is supposed to be dark fantasy not Disney fantasy. Good on you if you can enjoy the hell out of it...I begrudge no one their fun. Some of us are unwilling to call a rat a squirrel in order to convince ourselves it better than what it is. I prefer to be glass half full rather than constantly running on empty. Incidentally, the glass is always 100% full.
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Post by Ieldra on Oct 23, 2024 18:19:51 GMT
I feel that If you are still clinging to what was 15 years later, It Is time to let go! You know, I did that. I haven't even followed the news for five years, I still don't know what the state of things is regarding Mass Effect and I don't care much. If they had never made another DA game, it wouldn't have mattered, and there are other games with almost the same magic. For me, this magic, whatever it is, is that which makes me envision my characters in great detail, think about their decisions and motivations in great detail etc.. Cyberpunk 2077 did that for me, for instance, it's just that you can't name your characters in that game so they become hard to remember as individuals after a while.
So, DAV was already something of an epilogue for me when it was announced. But epilogue or not, it is sad to see how things changed. Because you know, some game worlds actually do not decline over the years, even as they change. Take, for instance, Eora. Pillars of Eternity came out 2015, the successor had a very different aesthetic and significant changes in gameplay, and it was quite objectively better in almost everything but the story. Then it was a bumpy ride and Avowed will be an action RPG, somewhat in the style of Skyrim, another very significant change. And it looks quite promising. I don't know how other old fans will take it, but I am very much looking forward to it and I do not expect to be disappointed with regard to what I care most about in games like this. I don't know if it'll be great of course, but I expect something overall good rather than something overall bad, which is a marked contrast to the dread I felt when DAV was announced. Perhaps, I thought, it would've been better if they hadn't made this game. Because there is also such a thing as retroactive poisoning of memory. I can only say ME3's ending....
No, I don't think this will happen with DAV. Galaxy-sized clusterfucks like ME3's ending are rare. And whatever else I say, it will be good to see Morrigan again. I liked how she looked in the DAV footage.
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Post by themikefest on Oct 23, 2024 18:34:23 GMT
Sooo...what are peoples' expectations on dealing with Solas. I'm kind of guessing at this point but my skept-o-meter has me thinking it'll be some binary BS like leave him trapped in the fade or rescue/"redeem" him. Personally I'd like the return of murder knife or even the option to make him tranquil...though I know that'll not happen. Dealing with Solas? I would like to give him a steak laced with poison when he's in dog form. Make him go through the joining. Make him tranquil. Have the public stone him. Make him tranquil, then have him wear a jester outfit. Have my Inq be the one to kill the elf. Sell him to slavers. Give him a poison cup of tea. Cut off his ears, then stab him to death with them. With the power of the voice, convince him to commit suicide. What I expect? His sacrifice leads to him being a hero. If redeemed, there is no punishment for all his nonsense that led to countless deaths. My Inq not having any say in dealing with Solas.
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Post by grallon on Oct 23, 2024 18:39:17 GMT
Another interesting take following the Neon Knight video mentioned above.
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akots
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by akots on Oct 23, 2024 19:11:34 GMT
I know you are not arguing against what we do here. And i believe you were trying to kindly give us a reality check. But there's no need, cause we all know Bioware of old and modern Bioware are not the same. How could it be, when the team is probably 95% different now. Personally for me, there is no loyalty for Bioware and never were as a company. I liked some of what they made, including BG1/BG2 and NwN but was never able to get into the Star Wars of theirs. I also have zero interest in its corporate fate whatever that might be. However, I do share fondness for DA and ME. My grief lies with inability or the lack of desire to sell/license the franchise to somebody who might be able to continue their development, while putting almost no effort into actually caring to keep both franchises at a proper quality level they deserve. On the other hand, there might be no buyers out there. So, for me both of these worlds are finished in their state as it were in DAI and ME3. Whatever label Bioware puts on what they make has a very thin association and is misleading, and I presume is used simply for marketing purposes to get extra sale numbers. DAV might still be a decent or at least a half-decent game. However, to assess it objectively, you have to remove yourself from the DA you know/want and try to see DAV as something separate, a stand-alone title with some very obscure connection to DA, if any in a meaningful way.
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Cerberus is Humanity! Join us today and receive a limited edition commemorative pin!
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Post by 10k on Oct 23, 2024 19:11:56 GMT
While EA did not help this situation by any means I'm not willing to lay it all at their feet...or even the majority. I'm pretty sure EA didn't tell them to make ridiculous looking enemies like the darkspawn...or force them to ignore things like who drank from the well...or what appears to many to have brought the worst aspects of MEA because apparently they are incapable of learning the simplest of lessons...i.e. improper tone...DA is supposed to be dark fantasy not Disney fantasy. Good on you if you can enjoy the hell out of it...I begrudge no one their fun. Some of us are unwilling to call a rat a squirrel in order to convince ourselves it better than what it is. 100% this. People keep blaming EA, and at this point it's not them. Sure EA love to push microtransactions in basically every game they own. But they were pretty much hands off during Anthem, which was a game BW wanted to make not EA. And they're hands off here as well letting BW once again do basically whatever they want. Giving them 10 years to do so. Compared to other studios that EA owned, they've given BW so many chances. Yet people still blame them, it's crazy.
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Post by Ieldra on Oct 23, 2024 20:05:33 GMT
While EA did not help this situation by any means I'm not willing to lay it all at their feet...or even the majority. I'm pretty sure EA didn't tell them to make ridiculous looking enemies like the darkspawn...or force them to ignore things like who drank from the well...or what appears to many to have brought the worst aspects of MEA because apparently they are incapable of learning the simplest of lessons...i.e. improper tone...DA is supposed to be dark fantasy not Disney fantasy. Good on you if you can enjoy the hell out of it...I begrudge no one their fun. Some of us are unwilling to call a rat a squirrel in order to convince ourselves it better than what it is. 100% this. People keep blaming EA, and at this point it's not them. Sure EA love to push microtransactions in basically every game they own. But they were pretty much hands off during Anthem, which was a game BW wanted to make not EA. And they're hands off here as well letting BW once again do basically whatever they want. Giving them 10 years to do so. Compared to other studios that EA owned, they've given BW so many chances. Yet people still blame them, it's crazy. I think there are two things for which we can blame EA: the state of DA2 when it came out, and forcing Bioware to use the Frostbite engine for a game for which it wasn't suited, which probably resulted in DAI feeling incomplete in more than one way.
MEA was fully on Bioware.
About DAV, we do not know, but...well....who made the decisions to make "DA4" first one type of game, then another, then put it on hold, and finally return it to "life" only to make it yet another type of game? Doesn't sound like something the studio would do on its own. More like the publisher being indecisive about which trend to chase.
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The Elder King
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Post by The Elder King on Oct 23, 2024 20:28:19 GMT
100% this. People keep blaming EA, and at this point it's not them. Sure EA love to push microtransactions in basically every game they own. But they were pretty much hands off during Anthem, which was a game BW wanted to make not EA. And they're hands off here as well letting BW once again do basically whatever they want. Giving them 10 years to do so. Compared to other studios that EA owned, they've given BW so many chances. Yet people still blame them, it's crazy. I think there are two things for which we can blame EA: the state of DA2 when it came out, and forcing Bioware to use the Frostbite engine for a game for which it wasn't suited, which probably resulted in DAI feeling incomplete in more than one way.
MEA was fully on Bioware.
About DAV, we do not know, but...well....who made the decisions to make "DA4" first one type of game, then another, then put it on hold, and finally return it to "life" only to make it yet another type of game? Doesn't sound like something the studio would do on its own. More like the publisher being indecisive about which trend to chase.
I completely agree on DA2 and the Frostbite. I think ME3 needed more development time given the scope and the conclusion of the trilogy, as well. MEA is on Bioware, even if some could point out the issues on the Montreal studio and the NMS-like idea that was hastily scrapped with not much development time to work on what we got in the end...but the idea of going in that direction was personally wrong regardless of the issues that came out later. On DAV, EA making Bioware work on a live service IP, alongside the struggles of that game's development, are the reason for the first DA4 project being scrapped. It seems possible that EA made Bioware develop the second version that seemed to the explore multiplayer and live service, as the timing with Anthem's failure and the success of a plethora of SP games, including Fallen Order, seems too much of a coincidence. I do, however, think that they had enough time since the shift to change things up. Is it possible that there might've been some constraints in terms of resources, or a mandate to use some stuff they already worked on to contain the 'rework' of the game? Sure. But I also think they opted for some of the changes for the need to attract new players, and on the other hand, leant more towards the desires of part of the fanbase. I think people often forget how split Bioware fans were, and are, on numerous issues in regards of the direction of the games in terms of combat, quest direction, artstyle and more. I do think that with the choices they made in development, that they need their bet to attract new consumers to work. But while I respect that a good number of old players aren't attracted to Veilguard and don't think it'll be a good DA game (or even a good game in general), I do think there are number of them who will enjoy it or love. I have a lot more concerns and fears for Veilguard then the most optimistic crow, but I'm still interested in the game and its lore/story (the major pull so far is the exploration of the ancient lore and history of Thedas) and I still think it could end up as a good RPG and DA game...even if lots of choices they made makes it really unlikely it'll be my personal best. I could also see it ending up as a terrible experience for me, so time will tell.
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Post by danaxe on Oct 23, 2024 20:30:50 GMT
I think there are two things for which we can blame EA: the state of DA2 when it came out, and forcing Bioware to use the Frostbite engine for a game for which it wasn't suited, which probably resulted in DAI feeling incomplete in more than one way.
MEA was fully on Bioware.
About DAV, we do not know, but...well....who made the decisions to make "DA4" first one type of game, then another, then put it on hold, and finally return it to "life" only to make it yet another type of game? Doesn't sound like something the studio would do on its own. More like the publisher being indecisive about which trend to chase.
You can also blame EA for the whole back and forth with singleplayer/multiplayer dance. But yes, MEA was totally Bioware's fault and their ridiculous need to follow trends. MEA had at least 5 years of development, but because they wanted to do No Mans Mass Effect and try the whole procedural generation of planets thing, they ended up scrapping the whole thing cause it wasnt working and ended up with MEA being done in 18 months. It's also Bioware's fault that they chased after the looter shooter rage and decided to do Anthem. Who ever decided to take the company in that direction is one of the biggest architects of their downfall. And no, EA didnt ask them to do a looter shooter. The time and money they spent on that game could have been used for that first iteration of DA they had going, and by now we could be already getting a ME4 and looking forward to DA5 in a couple years. Now when it comes to DA4, despite the whole 3 iterations of the same game, they ended up having to develop Veilguard in 4 years. Which is more than enough to make a great game. And they already had the template for it from the first single player iteration of DA4 that was scrapped. I remember at the time reading devs talking about how dark and gritty that game was going to be, going back to a more linear type of game with "a spy network" kind of team that the player would (be a part of and eventually) lead in Minrathous. That actually could have been a lot of fun. Doing your own investigation into Solas and his followers. Hindering Qunari plots. Work secretly against the worst magisters while helping factions connected to Dorian and co. That type of narrative would actually be a great setup for an Inquisition colaboration on the hunt for Solas. Why didnt they take the work that had already been done and build upon it? They had 4 years to turn it into something great. So whatever Veilguard ends up being, its entirely Bioware's fault. Im not defending EA, not by a long shot. But EA cant be used as the scapegoat for terrible decisions from Biowares management anymore.
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Post by grallon on Oct 23, 2024 21:17:46 GMT
Why didnt they take the work that had already been done and build upon it? They had 4 years to turn it into something great. So whatever Veilguard ends up being, its entirely Bioware's fault. Why indeed? Especially if they already had a blueprint, a storyboard and some assets. I still believe we can see the bones of 'Joplin' in the set designs and environements. So, it appears it boils down to the personal preferences of the current crew... Oh well, we can moan all day about it but it won't change anything. So the one thing we can do is go with it or move on. Pity about the next Mass Effect though.
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Gui meɖi naneke o, gake ŋudͻwͻnu le eŋu
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Post by rekkampum on Oct 23, 2024 21:20:57 GMT
Sooo...what are peoples' expectations on dealing with Solas. I'm kind of guessing at this point but my skept-o-meter has me thinking it'll be some binary BS like leave him trapped in the fade or rescue/"redeem" him. Personally I'd like the return of murder knife or even the option to make him tranquil...though I know that'll not happen. Dealing with Solas? I would like to give him a steak laced with poison when he's in dog form. Make him go through the joining. Make him tranquil. Have the public stone him. Make him tranquil, then have him wear a jester outfit. Have my Inq be the one to kill the elf. Sell him to slavers. Give him a poison cup of tea. Cut off his ears, then stab him to death with them. With the power of the voice, convince him to commit suicide. What I expect? His sacrifice leads to him being a hero. If redeemed, there is no punishment for all his nonsense that led to countless deaths. My Inq not having any say in dealing with Solas. Never seen the knife-ear insult taken to such extremes. May the Dread Wolf take me for laughing so hard.
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Post by themikefest on Oct 23, 2024 21:26:57 GMT
I think ME3 needed more development time given the scope and the conclusion of the trilogy, as well. It did need more time. Here's what Bioware would have done if they had the time needed.
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Gui meɖi naneke o, gake ŋudͻwͻnu le eŋu
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Post by rekkampum on Oct 23, 2024 21:44:15 GMT
I think there are two things for which we can blame EA: the state of DA2 when it came out, and forcing Bioware to use the Frostbite engine for a game for which it wasn't suited, which probably resulted in DAI feeling incomplete in more than one way.
MEA was fully on Bioware.
About DAV, we do not know, but...well....who made the decisions to make "DA4" first one type of game, then another, then put it on hold, and finally return it to "life" only to make it yet another type of game? Doesn't sound like something the studio would do on its own. More like the publisher being indecisive about which trend to chase.
You can also blame EA for the whole back and forth with singleplayer/multiplayer dance. But yes, MEA was totally Bioware's fault and their ridiculous need to follow trends. MEA had at least 5 years of development, but because they wanted to do No Mans Mass Effect and try the whole procedural generation of planets thing, they ended up scrapping the whole thing cause it wasnt working and ended up with MEA being done in 18 months. It's also Bioware's fault that they chased after the looter shooter rage and decided to do Anthem. Who ever decided to take the company in that direction is one of the biggest architects of their downfall. And no, EA didnt ask them to do a looter shooter. The time and money they spent on that game could have been used for that first iteration of DA they had going, and by now we could be already getting a ME4 and looking forward to DA5 in a couple years. Now when it comes to DA4, despite the whole 3 iterations of the same game, they ended up having to develop Veilguard in 4 years. Which is more than enough to make a great game. And they already had the template for it from the first single player iteration of DA4 that was scrapped. I remember at the time reading devs talking about how dark and gritty that game was going to be, going back to a more linear type of game with "a spy network" kind of team that the player would (be a part of and eventually) lead in Minrathous. That actually could have been a lot of fun. Doing your own investigation into Solas and his followers. Hindering Qunari plots. Work secretly against the worst magisters while helping factions connected to Dorian and co. That type of narrative would actually be a great setup for an Inquisition colaboration on the hunt for Solas. Why didnt they take the work that had already been done and build upon it? They had 4 years to turn it into something great. So whatever Veilguard ends up being, its entirely Bioware's fault. Im not defending EA, not by a long shot. But EA cant be used as the scapegoat for terrible decisions from Biowares management anymore. Bioware had just over three years to develop Veilguard, and the only thing that they actually had a template for was the general story. They had to abandon their entire game dev process for the first scrapped game to build it around multiplayer, and then scrap that when they had the chance, and rebuild it from the ground-up around a single player system again. Note also this means building an entirely new suite of RPG features and mechanics and then adding them to the Frostbite engine because the engine is suited to FPS games and has virtually no native RPG features in it. They had to do the same thing and more for Inquisition, one of the biggest reasons for it playing the way it did in terms of combat and character progression. This isn't even counting Laidlaw and many of the devs who worked on the first version leaving Bioware when the initial decision to scrap it for live service gameplay was made over it. Now some of the writing woes and other issues with employees getting hemorrhaged and McKay shafting key vets in Bioware's history etc. is squarely on Bioware - and I totally am wishing Kirby and the others the best in that lawsuit. But the rest of the stuff absolutely is on the trouble that EA brought to the dev cycle and the repercussions of it, because - based on what I've gleaned from interviews on what they were dealing with in the past- Dragon Age Veilguard still conceptually has traces of that previous identity it is struggling to escape on it.
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Post by Pounce de León on Oct 23, 2024 23:13:37 GMT
You can also blame EA for the whole back and forth with singleplayer/multiplayer dance. But yes, MEA was totally Bioware's fault and their ridiculous need to follow trends. MEA had at least 5 years of development, but because they wanted to do No Mans Mass Effect and try the whole procedural generation of planets thing, they ended up scrapping the whole thing cause it wasnt working and ended up with MEA being done in 18 months. It's also Bioware's fault that they chased after the looter shooter rage and decided to do Anthem. Who ever decided to take the company in that direction is one of the biggest architects of their downfall. And no, EA didnt ask them to do a looter shooter. The time and money they spent on that game could have been used for that first iteration of DA they had going, and by now we could be already getting a ME4 and looking forward to DA5 in a couple years. Now when it comes to DA4, despite the whole 3 iterations of the same game, they ended up having to develop Veilguard in 4 years. Which is more than enough to make a great game. And they already had the template for it from the first single player iteration of DA4 that was scrapped. I remember at the time reading devs talking about how dark and gritty that game was going to be, going back to a more linear type of game with "a spy network" kind of team that the player would (be a part of and eventually) lead in Minrathous. That actually could have been a lot of fun. Doing your own investigation into Solas and his followers. Hindering Qunari plots. Work secretly against the worst magisters while helping factions connected to Dorian and co. That type of narrative would actually be a great setup for an Inquisition colaboration on the hunt for Solas. Why didnt they take the work that had already been done and build upon it? They had 4 years to turn it into something great. So whatever Veilguard ends up being, its entirely Bioware's fault. Im not defending EA, not by a long shot. But EA cant be used as the scapegoat for terrible decisions from Biowares management anymore. Bioware had just over three years to develop Veilguard, and the only thing that they actually had a template for was the general story. They had to abandon their entire game dev process for the first scrapped game to build it around multiplayer, and then scrap that when they had the chance, and rebuild it from the ground-up around a single player system again. Note also this means building an entirely new suite of RPG features and mechanics and then adding them to the Frostbite engine because the engine is suited to FPS games and has virtually no native RPG features in it. They had to do the same thing and more for Inquisition, one of the biggest reasons for it playing the way it did in terms of combat and character progression. This isn't even counting Laidlaw and many of the devs who worked on the first version leaving Bioware when the initial decision to scrap it for live service gameplay was made over it. Now some of the writing woes and other issues with employees getting hemorrhaged and McKay shafting key vets in Bioware's history etc. is squarely on Bioware - and I totally am wishing Kirby and the others the best in that lawsuit. But the rest of the stuff absolutely is on the trouble that EA brought to the dev cycle and the repercussions of it, because - based on what I've gleaned from interviews on what they were dealing with in the past- Dragon Age Veilguard still conceptually has traces of that previous identity it is struggling to escape on it. It's been ten years since the last DA game - not three. Mismanaging design for seven years doesn't reset the clock. Maybe it's all EA's fault. Maybe it's also EA's fault Anthem and MEA underwent similar problems. But maybe the core of the problem isn't an external factor when the same thing keeps happening.
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LawBringerSR2
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lawbringersr2
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, KOTOR
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Post by LawBringerSR2 on Oct 23, 2024 23:52:37 GMT
I think there are two things for which we can blame EA: the state of DA2 when it came out, and forcing Bioware to use the Frostbite engine for a game for which it wasn't suited, which probably resulted in DAI feeling incomplete in more than one way.
MEA was fully on Bioware.
About DAV, we do not know, but...well....who made the decisions to make "DA4" first one type of game, then another, then put it on hold, and finally return it to "life" only to make it yet another type of game? Doesn't sound like something the studio would do on its own. More like the publisher being indecisive about which trend to chase.
You can also blame EA for the whole back and forth with singleplayer/multiplayer dance. But yes, MEA was totally Bioware's fault and their ridiculous need to follow trends. MEA had at least 5 years of development, but because they wanted to do No Mans Mass Effect and try the whole procedural generation of planets thing, they ended up scrapping the whole thing cause it wasnt working and ended up with MEA being done in 18 months. It's also Bioware's fault that they chased after the looter shooter rage and decided to do Anthem. Who ever decided to take the company in that direction is one of the biggest architects of their downfall. And no, EA didnt ask them to do a looter shooter. The time and money they spent on that game could have been used for that first iteration of DA they had going, and by now we could be already getting a ME4 and looking forward to DA5 in a couple years. Now when it comes to DA4, despite the whole 3 iterations of the same game, they ended up having to develop Veilguard in 4 years. Which is more than enough to make a great game. And they already had the template for it from the first single player iteration of DA4 that was scrapped. I remember at the time reading devs talking about how dark and gritty that game was going to be, going back to a more linear type of game with "a spy network" kind of team that the player would (be a part of and eventually) lead in Minrathous. That actually could have been a lot of fun. Doing your own investigation into Solas and his followers. Hindering Qunari plots. Work secretly against the worst magisters while helping factions connected to Dorian and co. That type of narrative would actually be a great setup for an Inquisition colaboration on the hunt for Solas. Why didnt they take the work that had already been done and build upon it? They had 4 years to turn it into something great. So whatever Veilguard ends up being, its entirely Bioware's fault. Im not defending EA, not by a long shot. But EA cant be used as the scapegoat for terrible decisions from Biowares management anymore. I sure would have liked to see that DA4 with the grittiness that befits the Tevinter setting. It is after all a place rife with Blood Magic and in which slavery is legal. Shame they opted for the safe, lighter tone instead, not sure it's compatible with the setting. It should have been the darkest DA game.
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rekkampum
N2
Gui meɖi naneke o, gake ŋudͻwͻnu le eŋu
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Posts: 169 Likes: 264
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by rekkampum on Oct 23, 2024 23:52:44 GMT
Bioware had just over three years to develop Veilguard, and the only thing that they actually had a template for was the general story. They had to abandon their entire game dev process for the first scrapped game to build it around multiplayer, and then scrap that when they had the chance, and rebuild it from the ground-up around a single player system again. Note also this means building an entirely new suite of RPG features and mechanics and then adding them to the Frostbite engine because the engine is suited to FPS games and has virtually no native RPG features in it. They had to do the same thing and more for Inquisition, one of the biggest reasons for it playing the way it did in terms of combat and character progression. This isn't even counting Laidlaw and many of the devs who worked on the first version leaving Bioware when the initial decision to scrap it for live service gameplay was made over it. Now some of the writing woes and other issues with employees getting hemorrhaged and McKay shafting key vets in Bioware's history etc. is squarely on Bioware - and I totally am wishing Kirby and the others the best in that lawsuit. But the rest of the stuff absolutely is on the trouble that EA brought to the dev cycle and the repercussions of it, because - based on what I've gleaned from interviews on what they were dealing with in the past- Dragon Age Veilguard still conceptually has traces of that previous identity it is struggling to escape on it. It's been ten years since the last DA game - not three. Mismanaging design for seven years doesn't reset the clock. Maybe it's all EA's fault. Maybe it's also EA's fault Anthem and MEA underwent similar problems. But maybe the core of the problem isn't an external factor when the same thing keeps happening. Yes, it's been ten years, but they only began development on Veilguard a few years ago, and that was in large part - excluding the misfire with Anthem - due to the restructuring brought on by EA. This is literally the reason Laidlaw and the other employees left Bioware because they didn't want to work on, in their own words, "Anthem with dragons". No one's saying Bioware doesn't have problems. It does. But EA's meddling is well-documented and has had a palpable effect on the dev cycle of the game.
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Post by alanc9 on Oct 24, 2024 1:14:49 GMT
I think there are two things for which we can blame EA: the state of DA2 when it came out, and forcing Bioware to use the Frostbite engine for a game for which it wasn't suited, which probably resulted in DAI feeling incomplete in more than one way.
MEA was fully on Bioware.
About DAV, we do not know, but...well....who made the decisions to make "DA4" first one type of game, then another, then put it on hold, and finally return it to "life" only to make it yet another type of game? Doesn't sound like something the studio would do on its own. More like the publisher being indecisive about which trend to chase.
You can also blame EA for the whole back and forth with singleplayer/multiplayer dance. But yes, MEA was totally Bioware's fault and their ridiculous need to follow trends. MEA had at least 5 years of development, but because they wanted to do No Mans Mass Effect and try the whole procedural generation of planets thing, they ended up scrapping the whole thing cause it wasnt working and ended up with MEA being done in 18 months. Could've been worse. They might have stuck with the original vision and ended up with Starfield.
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Post by Reznore on Oct 24, 2024 6:04:00 GMT
You can also blame EA for the whole back and forth with singleplayer/multiplayer dance. But yes, MEA was totally Bioware's fault and their ridiculous need to follow trends. MEA had at least 5 years of development, but because they wanted to do No Mans Mass Effect and try the whole procedural generation of planets thing, they ended up scrapping the whole thing cause it wasnt working and ended up with MEA being done in 18 months. Could've been worse. They might have stuck with the original vision and ended up with Starfield. Starfield makes me totally distrust reviews. There's so mcuh design problems in this game, loading screens, loading screens, talk, talk, loading screen, loading screen, shitty space flight, loading loading screen , fight, walks around aimlessly, loading screen. You got Bethesda very average writing with no real funny world to get lost in.
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The Elder King
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by The Elder King on Oct 24, 2024 7:40:16 GMT
Bioware had just over three years to develop Veilguard, and the only thing that they actually had a template for was the general story. They had to abandon their entire game dev process for the first scrapped game to build it around multiplayer, and then scrap that when they had the chance, and rebuild it from the ground-up around a single player system again. Note also this means building an entirely new suite of RPG features and mechanics and then adding them to the Frostbite engine because the engine is suited to FPS games and has virtually no native RPG features in it. They had to do the same thing and more for Inquisition, one of the biggest reasons for it playing the way it did in terms of combat and character progression. This isn't even counting Laidlaw and many of the devs who worked on the first version leaving Bioware when the initial decision to scrap it for live service gameplay was made over it. Now some of the writing woes and other issues with employees getting hemorrhaged and McKay shafting key vets in Bioware's history etc. is squarely on Bioware - and I totally am wishing Kirby and the others the best in that lawsuit. But the rest of the stuff absolutely is on the trouble that EA brought to the dev cycle and the repercussions of it, because - based on what I've gleaned from interviews on what they were dealing with in the past- Dragon Age Veilguard still conceptually has traces of that previous identity it is struggling to escape on it. It's been ten years since the last DA game - not three. Mismanaging design for seven years doesn't reset the clock. Maybe it's all EA's fault. Maybe it's also EA's fault Anthem and MEA underwent similar problems. But maybe the core of the problem isn't an external factor when the same thing keeps happening. To be fair, though, it doesn't seem that the reboots and changes in designs were due to mismanaging the project. The first idea and design of the game wasn't scrapped because it was bad or because the team wasn't working well, but due to Anthem's enormous issues and the need to be all hands on deck to release that game. Bioware could be criticized for what they did with Anthem (even if EA is possibly the reason why they had to work on a new live service IP in the first place), but it wasn't the fault of the DA team the project was scrapped. The second project had most likely multiplayer elements, if not being a full multiplayer/live service game. We do know from Jason Scheier that EA/Bioware changed course and went full on a single player RPG. I think there are good chances that EA wanted Bioware to work on DA to be that kind of game, and similarly, the success of single player games, especially Fallen Order, and Anthem's flop lead them to change course for Veilguard...which would also explain why they got so much time after the shift to fully SP RPG to develop the game. I don't think the time post-shift isn't enough to develop a game, especially because they did use a part of the work they already did. As I said earlier, while it's possible certain things in place are remnants of their previous iteration that they couldn't remove or change to avoid wasting the resources spent before, I also think some decisions are intentional ones to attract new players and consumers, and some of those seem very risky. I think EA has its role in the mismanagement of Dragon Age and the 10 yeas of development and scrapping project, but if Veilguard isn't a good game it'd be on Bioware.
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