inherit
The Smiling Knight
538
0
21,889
smilesja
13,728
August 2016
smilesja
|
Post by smilesja on Dec 5, 2020 22:45:05 GMT
I would just like them to work more on their illusion of choice skills. It was just too clear how everything I did as the Inquisitor was quickly undone, with Trespasser even removing your autonomy. Could we have at least waited until the next game? That would have been nice. Expect this, but even worse. That's what I'm getting at. Yes. Bioware doesn't really do choice and consequence, Bethesda doesn't do choice and consequence, CDPR doesn't do choice and consequence, and neither do any other AAA RPGs. And they never have. The choices you make are contained to one game, and virtually never reflected elsewhere afterward (ME3's Tuchanka and Rannoch are the only exceptions I can think of). We knew this a decade ago. I don't understand how people can still think otherwise. Because you can't tell your customer base "choices matter" and then handle them in the most Minimum Viable Product way possible. Be upfront about it. Welcome to advertising where the truth gets exaggerated in order to generate hype.
|
|
inherit
3439
0
9,185
alanc9
Old Scientist Contrarian
7,831
February 2017
alanc9
|
Post by alanc9 on Dec 5, 2020 23:05:21 GMT
When we say an RPG choice matters, what do we even mean?
|
|
inherit
ღ I am a golem. Obviously.
440
0
24,190
phoray
Dreadnaw Rising
12,573
August 2016
phoray
Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition
|
Post by phoray on Dec 5, 2020 23:42:38 GMT
When we say an RPG choice matters, what do we even mean? That if I pick Gaspard, a war mongering racist jerk, I at least get the sort of end game slides we got for ORigins where Harrowmount was a "good" traditionalist that continued to weaken the dwarven people vs Bhelen who improved relations with the surface, but lacked any honor. This was then at least referred back to with dwarves gossiping at the Winter Palace. GASPARD the war mongerer racist gets exactly the same outcome as Celene. and they couldn't even be bothered to show whomever was ruling come Trespasser. The ruler is off somewhere doing something while we literally are using their property for a meeting.
|
|
inherit
8885
0
7,211
river82
4,947
July 2017
river82
|
Post by river82 on Dec 6, 2020 0:02:02 GMT
When we say an RPG choice matters, what do we even mean? Any choice that creates a noticeably different second "path" or alternative. This can be a narrative branch where people are dead or a city is more developed, or it can be a gameplay choice where putting points in a certain skill will present a different gameplay path to achieve your outcome.
|
|
eternalambiguity
N3
I am alive.
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
Posts: 281 Likes: 335
inherit
11548
0
Jun 17, 2023 20:35:13 GMT
335
eternalambiguity
I am alive.
281
June 2020
eternalambiguity
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by eternalambiguity on Dec 6, 2020 5:31:16 GMT
Because you can't tell your customer base "choices matter" and then handle them in the most Minimum Viable Product way possible. Be upfront about it. That's kinda just marketing, like when a dev says "our game takes 60 hours to play the main quest!" or when Ubi says "our next open world game is twice as large as the previous one!" or when Kojima "invents" a new game genre. And besides, Bioware's moved away from such claims in recent years. Believe only what you see and experience (and sometimes not even that) and this kind of thing won't be an issue.
|
|
inherit
7671
0
1,046
NotN7
1,080
Apr 15, 2017 17:34:16 GMT
April 2017
notn7
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Neverwinter Nights, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by NotN7 on Dec 6, 2020 6:29:26 GMT
Because you can't tell your customer base "choices matter" and then handle them in the most Minimum Viable Product way possible. Be upfront about it. That's kinda just marketing, like when a dev says "our game takes 60 hours to play the main quest!" or when Ubi says "our next open world game is twice as large as the previous one!" or when Kojima "invents" a new game genre. And besides, Bioware's moved away from such claims in recent years. Believe only what you see and experience (and sometimes not even that) and this kind of thing won't be an issue. I'm at the point with Bioware I'll believe what I see they are taking way too long to do anything so with that said I give up on them
|
|
Adia
N2
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Mass Effect Andromeda, Anthem
Posts: 117 Likes: 197
inherit
11677
0
197
Adia
117
Sept 23, 2020 18:07:05 GMT
September 2020
adiel
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Mass Effect Andromeda, Anthem
|
Post by Adia on Dec 6, 2020 7:50:45 GMT
When we say an RPG choice matters, what do we even mean? Not Andromeda. Person 1: "Vetra is awesome! Ryder: Option 1 - "Yes!" Option 2 - "Yes!" Or Anthem. Person 1: "Wanna go for a bite or something?" Freelancer: Option 1 - "No." Option 2 - "Nope." So what we really want is meaningful dialogue choices that actually branch.
|
|
inherit
9459
0
Nov 24, 2021 20:18:46 GMT
5,622
SirSourpuss
7,694
Oct 16, 2017 16:19:07 GMT
October 2017
sirpetrakus
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, SWTOR
|
Post by SirSourpuss on Dec 6, 2020 11:37:30 GMT
Welcome to advertising where the truth gets exaggerated in order to generate hype That's kinda just marketing Marketing's gonna market, regardless, but the devs should do better than Anthem launch state. Or Marvel's Avengers launch state. Or Godfall. And besides, Bioware's moved away from such claims in recent years. By recent, I assume you mean after Anthem's launch, because before that, we had, well ... And in all fairness that trailer was from 2017, while we are now in 2020 and nothing as misleading has been done, from Bioware's part, since, but we've also not had a Bioware game launch since Anthem, or any promo material for a new game. Believe only what you see and experience (and sometimes not even that) and this kind of thing won't be an issue. I can wait till a title falls to the bargain bin, before snatching it up, or a Steam/GoG sale. Even EA is no longer Origin store exclusive on PC.
|
|
inherit
The Smiling Knight
538
0
21,889
smilesja
13,728
August 2016
smilesja
|
Post by smilesja on Dec 6, 2020 15:18:20 GMT
When we say an RPG choice matters, what do we even mean? Not Andromeda. Person 1: "Vetra is awesome! Ryder: Option 1 - "Yes!" Option 2 - "Yes!" Don't remember Andromeda being like that......
|
|
inherit
Scribbles
185
0
30,251
Hanako Ikezawa
22,357
August 2016
hanakoikezawa
|
Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Dec 6, 2020 15:30:07 GMT
Not Andromeda. Person 1: "Vetra is awesome! Ryder: Option 1 - "Yes!" Option 2 - "Yes!" Don't remember Andromeda being like that...... That’s because it wasn’t.
|
|
eternalambiguity
N3
I am alive.
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
Posts: 281 Likes: 335
inherit
11548
0
Jun 17, 2023 20:35:13 GMT
335
eternalambiguity
I am alive.
281
June 2020
eternalambiguity
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by eternalambiguity on Dec 6, 2020 17:22:58 GMT
Welcome to advertising where the truth gets exaggerated in order to generate hype That's kinda just marketing Marketing's gonna market, regardless, but the devs should do better than Anthem launch state. Or Marvel's Avengers launch state. Or Godfall. And besides, Bioware's moved away from such claims in recent years. By recent, I assume you mean after Anthem's launch, because before that, we had, well ... And in all fairness that trailer was from 2017, while we are now in 2020 and nothing as misleading has been done, from Bioware's part, since, but we've also not had a Bioware game launch since Anthem, or any promo material for a new game. Believe only what you see and experience (and sometimes not even that) and this kind of thing won't be an issue. I can wait till a title falls to the bargain bin, before snatching it up, or a Steam/GoG sale. Even EA is no longer Origin store exclusive on PC. Your post that I quoted wasn't talking about generic marketing claims, it was about the whole "your choices matter" thing. Sure, Bioware's still doing generic marketing stuff like Anthem's "vertical slice" but they've moved away from trying to claim they're going to make choices matter in big ways.
And yes, I do the same with a lot of stuff. I'm not planning to buy Valhalla or Legion until they're both on sale for at least 50% off. I'm still waiting for Fallen Order to get cheap enough to buy. Once you're committed to waiting for good deals, you don't need the hype cycle to tell you whether or not a game is worth buying--it'll be out, and you can check the consensus.
|
|
inherit
9459
0
Nov 24, 2021 20:18:46 GMT
5,622
SirSourpuss
7,694
Oct 16, 2017 16:19:07 GMT
October 2017
sirpetrakus
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, SWTOR
|
Post by SirSourpuss on Dec 6, 2020 17:26:40 GMT
Your post that I quoted wasn't talking about generic marketing claims, it was about the whole "your choices matter" thing. Yeah, I understand that. Sure, Bioware's still doing generic marketing stuff like Anthem's "vertical slice" but they've moved away from trying to claim they're going to make choices matter in big ways. Yeah. I would really like it if the "choices" I made, didn't matter, in a more satisfying manner.
And yes, I do the same with a lot of stuff. I'm not planning to buy Valhalla or Legion until they're both on sale for at least 50% off. I'm still waiting for Fallen Order to get cheap enough to buy. Once you're committed to waiting for good deals, you don't need the hype cycle to tell you whether or not a game is worth buying--it'll be out, and you can check the consensus. Yup. Wait, Legion? Oh, Watch Dogs, right?
|
|
eternalambiguity
N3
I am alive.
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
Posts: 281 Likes: 335
inherit
11548
0
Jun 17, 2023 20:35:13 GMT
335
eternalambiguity
I am alive.
281
June 2020
eternalambiguity
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by eternalambiguity on Dec 6, 2020 18:01:29 GMT
Your post that I quoted wasn't talking about generic marketing claims, it was about the whole "your choices matter" thing. Yeah, I understand that. Sure, Bioware's still doing generic marketing stuff like Anthem's "vertical slice" but they've moved away from trying to claim they're going to make choices matter in big ways. Yeah. I would really like it if the "choices" I made, didn't matter, in a more satisfying manner.
And yes, I do the same with a lot of stuff. I'm not planning to buy Valhalla or Legion until they're both on sale for at least 50% off. I'm still waiting for Fallen Order to get cheap enough to buy. Once you're committed to waiting for good deals, you don't need the hype cycle to tell you whether or not a game is worth buying--it'll be out, and you can check the consensus. Yup. Wait, Legion? Oh, Watch Dogs, right?
Who's to say what "in a more satisfying manner" means (especially because Bioware's selling a product to hundreds of thousands, not just one person)? There are people here in this thread claiming an ending slide--two paragraphs of text and a generic background--counts as "consequences" for a choice. It's a floating decimal point.
Yeah, Watch Dogs and Assassin's Creed. Just mentioning a couple AAA games that I do intend to get, but I'm waiting for sales and thus I feel no need to trust or get worked up over the marketing for the games before release.
|
|
inherit
ღ I am a golem. Obviously.
440
0
24,190
phoray
Dreadnaw Rising
12,573
August 2016
phoray
Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition
|
Post by phoray on Dec 6, 2020 22:27:27 GMT
ho's to say what "in a more satisfying manner" means (especially because Bioware's selling a product to hundreds of thousands, not just one person)? There are people here in this thread claiming an ending slide--two paragraphs of text and a generic background--counts as "consequences" for a choice. It's a floating decimal point. Bhelen vs HArrowmount. We got slides at the end of the game. A side quest for losing would-be dwarven king in DA2. And gossiping in the Winter Palace, although that was less satisfying, but we could imagine Harrowmount losing even more trade would be especially dire as compared to Bhelen. that is more than a couple of ending slides. I understand a reasonable reflection of my choices while feeling respected that they tried. The only game that ever truly super reflected my choices (in an AAA level game) by a true branching narrative was Witcher 2. It was like two games in one, even if the Major Events turned out the same.
|
|
apollexander
N3
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Mass Effect Andromeda
Posts: 350 Likes: 775
inherit
9079
0
775
apollexander
350
July 2017
apollexander
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by apollexander on Dec 7, 2020 1:10:17 GMT
Doesn't choosing between mages and templars reflect consequences? Not only the main quest is different, but also the nemesis(Samson/Calpernia) quest line is different.
|
|
Adia
N2
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Mass Effect Andromeda, Anthem
Posts: 117 Likes: 197
inherit
11677
0
197
Adia
117
Sept 23, 2020 18:07:05 GMT
September 2020
adiel
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Mass Effect Andromeda, Anthem
|
Post by Adia on Dec 7, 2020 1:12:12 GMT
Don't remember Andromeda being like that...... That’s because it wasn’t. Lmao, that's not a direct quote like the other one, that's true, my bad lol. But it basically what the game says. If I remember it happens with the conversation with Drack and you literally don't have the option to disagree with what he says about Vetra.
|
|
inherit
ღ I am a golem. Obviously.
440
0
24,190
phoray
Dreadnaw Rising
12,573
August 2016
phoray
Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition
|
Post by phoray on Dec 7, 2020 1:19:53 GMT
Doesn't choosing between mages and templars reflect consequences? Not only the main quest is different, but also the nemesis(Samson/Calpernia) quest line is different. Ah, I had forgotten this, but it doesn't seem to reflect much on the world. In the end, it's always College Vs Reborn Circle ala Viv, even if you never meet Vivian. PErhaps I'll eat my words and they somehow reflect it in the next game, but since they are changing locations entirely, I don't suspect it will.
|
|
eternalambiguity
N3
I am alive.
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
Posts: 281 Likes: 335
inherit
11548
0
Jun 17, 2023 20:35:13 GMT
335
eternalambiguity
I am alive.
281
June 2020
eternalambiguity
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by eternalambiguity on Dec 7, 2020 2:59:16 GMT
There were definitely a few times in Andromeda where you were given dialogue choices but they were variations of the same "yes" response. I'm not sure how much of that was "Bioware" and how much was "Bioware Montreal."
|
|
linksocarina
N5
Always teacher, sometimes writer
Teaching Mode Activated
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
PSN: LinksOcarina
Posts: 3,179 Likes: 4,063
inherit
Always teacher, sometimes writer
370
0
4,063
linksocarina
Teaching Mode Activated
3,179
August 2016
linksocarina
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
LinksOcarina
|
Post by linksocarina on Dec 7, 2020 5:19:00 GMT
There were definitely a few times in Andromeda where you were given dialogue choices but they were variations of the same "yes" response. I'm not sure how much of that was "Bioware" and how much was "Bioware Montreal." Considering that is typical for BioWare I am kind of not sure what folks expect. Didnt someone do a vid of all the times your choice of dialogue in the first Mass Effect was literally the same line regardless of what you picked?
|
|
Little Bengel
N3
Partying like it's 1999
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Mass Effect Andromeda, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Posts: 954 Likes: 2,626
Member is Online
inherit
3354
0
Member is Online
2,626
Little Bengel
Partying like it's 1999
954
February 2017
geminifreak
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Mass Effect Andromeda, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
|
Post by Little Bengel on Dec 7, 2020 11:55:29 GMT
There were definitely a few times in Andromeda where you were given dialogue choices but they were variations of the same "yes" response. I'm not sure how much of that was "Bioware" and how much was "Bioware Montreal." Considering that is typical for BioWare I am kind of not sure what folks expect. Didnt someone do a vid of all the times your choice of dialogue in the first Mass Effect was literally the same line regardless of what you picked? Yeah, that bugged me immensely in ME1. Not a new thing for Bioware.
|
|
Solas
N5
blep mlem mlem
ratlobster banger
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Prime Posts: 3,912
Prime Likes: 9733
Posts: 2,848 Likes: 12,756
inherit
blep mlem mlem
65
0
12,756
Solas
ratlobster banger
2,848
August 2016
solas
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
3,912
9733
|
Post by Solas on Dec 7, 2020 13:19:27 GMT
Did the DWR teaser trailer from TGA 2018 count as a world premier? I can't remember
|
|
eternalambiguity
N3
I am alive.
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
Posts: 281 Likes: 335
inherit
11548
0
Jun 17, 2023 20:35:13 GMT
335
eternalambiguity
I am alive.
281
June 2020
eternalambiguity
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by eternalambiguity on Dec 7, 2020 13:37:18 GMT
There were definitely a few times in Andromeda where you were given dialogue choices but they were variations of the same "yes" response. I'm not sure how much of that was "Bioware" and how much was "Bioware Montreal." Considering that is typical for BioWare I am kind of not sure what folks expect. Didnt someone do a vid of all the times your choice of dialogue in the first Mass Effect was literally the same line regardless of what you picked? I don't disagree about ME (I said as much earlier in the thread), but I feel like ME2 and 3 were different. I'll have to go back and double-check.
|
|
linksocarina
N5
Always teacher, sometimes writer
Teaching Mode Activated
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
PSN: LinksOcarina
Posts: 3,179 Likes: 4,063
inherit
Always teacher, sometimes writer
370
0
4,063
linksocarina
Teaching Mode Activated
3,179
August 2016
linksocarina
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
LinksOcarina
|
Post by linksocarina on Dec 7, 2020 13:55:41 GMT
Considering that is typical for BioWare I am kind of not sure what folks expect. Didnt someone do a vid of all the times your choice of dialogue in the first Mass Effect was literally the same line regardless of what you picked? I don't disagree about ME (I said as much earlier in the thread), but I feel like ME2 and 3 were different. I'll have to go back and double-check. Mass effect 3 kind of just did the auto dialogue thing to avoid it.
|
|
azarhal
N6
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Posts: 7,964 Likes: 21,986
inherit
1519
0
21,986
azarhal
7,964
Sept 9, 2016 12:15:16 GMT
September 2016
azarhal
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
|
Post by azarhal on Dec 7, 2020 13:59:51 GMT
Considering that is typical for BioWare I am kind of not sure what folks expect. Didnt someone do a vid of all the times your choice of dialogue in the first Mass Effect was literally the same line regardless of what you picked? I don't disagree about ME (I said as much earlier in the thread), but I feel like ME2 and 3 were different. I'll have to go back and double-check. They aren't different, but some of those dialogue choices were turned into paragon/renegade prompts in ME2/ME3 (and auto-dialogue in ME3). They might also have more cases of A and B "yes" resulting in a short different response before merging into the same dialogue. That's used a lots in SWTOR.
|
|
eternalambiguity
N3
I am alive.
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
Posts: 281 Likes: 335
inherit
11548
0
Jun 17, 2023 20:35:13 GMT
335
eternalambiguity
I am alive.
281
June 2020
eternalambiguity
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by eternalambiguity on Dec 7, 2020 14:02:23 GMT
I don't disagree about ME (I said as much earlier in the thread), but I feel like ME2 and 3 were different. I'll have to go back and double-check. Mass effect 3 kind of just did the auto dialogue thing to avoid it. Which is better. If you're not expecting the dialogue choice to be meaningful in expressing the player's character* or making a story decision, why have it? Just out of inertia and expectation?
* this encompasses a very broad range of responses of course.
|
|