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Post by Fredward on Dec 4, 2020 5:11:41 GMT
The weird bits about this to me are that they are leaving at the same time, like did they coordinate that or was it a coincidence? And that it's right before DA day. Wasn't there a hint that there was something planned for it? Yeah it might wash the anxiety away, it might also cast a pall. Just jesus please not another reboot. I dunno if there was a dev that seemed to love DA more than Mark, at least if we use Twitter as a metric. EDIT: One thing that stops me from being all HOPE IS LOST THERE IS NO LIGHT THE NIGHT CONTINUES ENDLESS is that RPG's as a genre seem to be in a muuuch better place than they were a couple of years ago, when the general discourse seemed to be that they were unprofitable and it was all about multiplayer stuff. That's still there, ish, I guess but people seem more invested than in them than they have been in a while. Sure it's maybe now 'live-service' RPGs but I no longer think that has to be the worst thing ever (meaning live service as MMOs). I'm always receptive to soul crushing disappointment though. Not gonna lie and say that it bodes well for DA4 in particular, especially since I get the impression Weekes would prefer to be writing books full time, and I want(ed?) an amazing game set in Tevinter but I'll take what I can get in the year of our lord 2020.
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Post by xrayspex73 on Dec 4, 2020 5:43:29 GMT
Well... Bioware has been dead for years. This is just a formality at this point.
Still sad.
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Post by Sanunes on Dec 4, 2020 5:54:13 GMT
The weird bits about this to me are that they are leaving at the same time, like did they coordinate that or was it a coincidence? And that it's right before DA day. Wasn't there a hint that there was something planned for it? Yeah it might wash the anxiety away, it might also cast a pall. Just jesus please not another reboot. I dunno if there was a dev that seemed to love DA more than Mark, at least if we use Twitter as a metric. EDIT: One thing that stops me from being all HOPE IS LOST THERE IS NO LIGHT THE NIGHT CONTINUES ENDLESS is that RPG's as a genre seem to be in a muuuch better place than they were a couple of years ago, when the general discourse seemed to be that they were unprofitable and it was all about multiplayer stuff. That's still there, ish, I guess but people seem more invested than in them than they have been in a while. Sure it's maybe now 'live-service' RPGs but I no longer think that has to be the worst thing ever (meaning live service as MMOs). I'm always receptive to soul crushing disappointment though. Not gonna lie and say that it bodes well for DA4 in particular, especially since I get the impression Weekes would prefer to be writing books full time, and I want(ed?) an amazing game set in Tevinter but I'll take what I can get in the year of our lord 2020. My guess is that they internally announced they were leaving months ago and it was decided that it would be less of an impact and a smaller news story if the announcement of their departure was made at the same time. That way its not two high level employees leaving a different times prolonging the story.
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Post by slimgrin727 on Dec 4, 2020 6:17:12 GMT
This is depressing to read. Both Hudson and Darrah are among the senior devs that propelled DA and ME into top tier RPGs. Most of the best leads have left the company and you have to wonder what the hell is going on. I suspect there's a clash of visions or culture and the old guard wants nothing to do with it. Given Bioware's recent track record, this does not bode well for DA4 and people trying to downplay it at this point are in denial.
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Post by duckley on Dec 4, 2020 6:49:36 GMT
Sorry to see them go. Hope this doesn't wreck DA4,because they are the bioware historians. I wish them well and look forward to seeing what they produce in the future.
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Just a flip of the coin.
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Post by Sanunes on Dec 4, 2020 6:51:03 GMT
This is depressing to read. Both Hudson and Darrah are among the senior devs that propelled DA and ME into top tier RPGs. Most of the best leads have left the company and you have to wonder what the hell is going on. I suspect there's a clash of visions or culture and the old guard wants nothing to do with it. Given Bioware's recent track record, this does not bode well for DA4 and people trying to downplay it at this point are in denial. Long term employees leave studios all the time. Most of the time its because they want to do something new or it seems they have reached the peak of what they have been doing. I am not aware of too many developers that stay at studios for 20+ years. As I have said elsewhere plenty of people were calling for Casey Hudson to be fired and pretty much run out of town after Mass Effect 3. There was even "the studio is better off without him" when he went to Microsoft. Even with Dragon Age Mark Darrah got plenty of criticism for his choices. Its a no-win situation for people will always blame them for everything they don't like about the directions of the games and then people claim the studio is dying when they do leave. Edit: I just want to add, I doubt they would have any real impact on what the future games of the studio would be like especially Casey Hudson. I think at best he might be given the Power Point presentation and then okay that, but any of the smaller details or direction wouldn't be his to make. Its probably similar with Mark Darrah as well for his focus would have been just Dragon Age instead of all of BioWare, but those positions probably have next to nothing to do with dealing with the details of the games themselves instead the environment in making the games. So the days where they had a real impact on the development of those franchises was already long gone. I remember the advice the Chief Technology Officer gave me on my first contract job out of college, "the higher you rise in the department, the less you get to do of the work" and to this day when I go into a company it still seems to apply.
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Post by river82 on Dec 4, 2020 7:03:10 GMT
And the post from EA lady. Did she want to do something like damage control? why post it? what she has to do on Bioware site? It's the official business post to say the studio manager is leaving and name his interim successor: Samantha Ryan. It's rather surprising they actually put Laura Miele's name on it. But this is terribly news, not really people leaving after 20 years, but that Samantha Ryan is now in-charge. Her idea of what a RPG is doesn't really match with BioWare's (old) vision and she could do a lots of damage if she stays around too long. Also, expect other people to leave the studio. These kind of departure usually leads to more people looking elsewhere. If Bioware was cranking out old style Bioware RPGs, Brent Knowles would likely still be at the studio. It's likely a well-considered and deliberate decision that someone with a different vision is in charge. That she has a history of being in charge of mobile was probably taken into consideration also. Looks like Bioware's a-changing a-little. Will be interesting to see what direction they go
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Post by colfoley on Dec 4, 2020 7:29:20 GMT
We strive for all of our studios to be places where talented creative people come to do career-defining work. A dimension of this ambition is that sometimes those people want to try something different. Casey Hudson, GM, BioWare and Mark Darrah, Executive Producer, Dragon Age are two of those people and they have decided to move on from BioWare. -- Bioware
And now, after nearly 20 years of work at BioWare, I’ve made the decision to retire from the studio and make way for the next generation of studio leaders. -- Casey
Though I remain confident in BioWare’s strength and continued place in this conversation, I have decided to retire from my position at BioWare....I don’t know what’s next for me, but I’m excited to find out. Just as I’m excited to find out what Dragon Age now becomes.-- MarkBased on their statements, it seems to me like Mark and Casey were pushed out of the studio... Bioware states 'sometimes people want to try something different' yet Mark and Casey have no idea what they are going on to next, and they both announce 'retirement'?!?! um....ok then. Mark also seemed really invested in DA, why would he just retire in the middle of a game's development that is basically at it's climax story-wise? (and on DA day too????!?!?!?) It all just seems so suss. I’m excited to find out what Dragon Age now becomes.' !?! sigh....Maybe their creative vision wasn't aligning with what EA wanted. Either way, unless there is actual gameplay involved I don't think any potential announcement or trailer will inspire much confidence at this point for me. The 25 yrs of Bioware book they released recently now feels like a commemoration of the studio TBH. :/ I mean what should they say at this point? Sure the bit about 'trying something different' is a liiiittttlllee concerning but we really have no idea what that means in terms of practicality. And the rest is pretty standard vague fluff when it comes to this sort of thing to the point of...nothing has really changed other then Mark and Casey having left the studio onto greener pastures. This really does not tell us about the status of the next DA game when taken in isolation and this does not change all of their previous statements and the marketing they already have revealed about the game. And as much as I have a generall favorable opinion of both Mark Darrah and Casey Hudson I don't think it can be overstated...they were both still high level executives. 'Management' in other words. They aren't the ground level grunts or project leads actually developping the game, just the people making decisions from a business standpoint. If this was Patrick Weekes who announced he was leaving I would be a lot more concerned. It also cannot be overstated either that this could very easily ahve been their decision. 21 years is a long time to do *anything*. I should know about the only thing I have done that long is living. The weird bits about this to me are that they are leaving at the same time, like did they coordinate that or was it a coincidence? And that it's right before DA day. Wasn't there a hint that there was something planned for it? Yeah it might wash the anxiety away, it might also cast a pall. Just jesus please not another reboot. I dunno if there was a dev that seemed to love DA more than Mark, at least if we use Twitter as a metric. EDIT: One thing that stops me from being all HOPE IS LOST THERE IS NO LIGHT THE NIGHT CONTINUES ENDLESS is that RPG's as a genre seem to be in a muuuch better place than they were a couple of years ago, when the general discourse seemed to be that they were unprofitable and it was all about multiplayer stuff. That's still there, ish, I guess but people seem more invested than in them than they have been in a while. Sure it's maybe now 'live-service' RPGs but I no longer think that has to be the worst thing ever (meaning live service as MMOs). I'm always receptive to soul crushing disappointment though. Not gonna lie and say that it bodes well for DA4 in particular, especially since I get the impression Weekes would prefer to be writing books full time, and I want(ed?) an amazing game set in Tevinter but I'll take what I can get in the year of our lord 2020. My guess is that they internally announced they were leaving months ago and it was decided that it would be less of an impact and a smaller news story if the announcement of their departure was made at the same time. That way its not two high level employees leaving a different times prolonging the story. To add to this to this being announced now...its the end of the BioWare work year. Right around this time they always announce that they are going on 'vacation' for the rest of the year and then starting over early next. So this announcement does come at the perfect time from that perspective because its probably just end of the year bookeeping and anything done this year will be getting the new leads up to speed and then in the next year they will have taken over fully. Though from a personal perspective if we do get anything from the Game Awards to it would be a little...odd...in that light, should've let them stay on till then.
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Post by river82 on Dec 4, 2020 7:32:22 GMT
I just want to add, I doubt they would have any real impact on what the future games of the studio would be like especially Casey Hudson. As a GM? They very much do
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Post by river82 on Dec 4, 2020 7:39:50 GMT
'Management' in other words. They aren't the ground level grunts or project leads actually developping the game, just the people making decisions from a business standpoint. The ground level grunts developing the game do so in the direction laid out by the higher ups. Casey Hudson could, if he had really wanted to, could have overseen a strategic shift that Bioware focus on mobile games proioritising cash shop monetisation, and the lower down "grunts" would do they work implementing that philosophy.
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Post by SofaJockey on Dec 4, 2020 7:46:01 GMT
I'll tell you in ~3 years. This is pretty much the answer. Only time will tell.
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Post by colfoley on Dec 4, 2020 7:49:59 GMT
'Management' in other words. They aren't the ground level grunts or project leads actually developping the game, just the people making decisions from a business standpoint. The ground level grunts developing the game do so in the direction laid out by the higher ups. Casey Hudson could, if he had really wanted to, could have overseen a strategic shift that Bioware focus on mobile games proioritising cash shop monetisation, and the lower down "grunts" would do they work implementing that philosophy. I'm not saying such people aren't important in the grand scheme of things that of course such decision makers don't have a powerful effect on what kind of games a company produces but there is a clear distinction between those descision makers, the mid level manager 'NCO' types, and then the actual grunts who do actually make it work. Like at my job a manager could go tell me to stock some milk but the time and the quality and the efficiency I stock that milk is ultimatley mine. Same thing here, while Darrah does make important decisions the actual work of developing the game belongs to the NCOs of BioWare, the Patrick Weekes's, John Epler's, and Luke Barret's, of the world and the...what dozens of other developers working on these projects can do. And no matter what EA and 'upper management' decides to do to the game I am fairly confident that the grunt level people will turn out quality work within those confines.
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Post by luketrevelyan on Dec 4, 2020 7:54:12 GMT
The ground level grunts developing the game do so in the direction laid out by the higher ups. Casey Hudson could, if he had really wanted to, could have overseen a strategic shift that Bioware focus on mobile games proioritising cash shop monetisation, and the lower down "grunts" would do they work implementing that philosophy. I'm not saying such people aren't important in the grand scheme of things that of course such decision makers don't have a powerful effect on what kind of games a company produces but there is a clear distinction between those descision makers, the mid level manager 'NCO' types, and then the actual grunts who do actually make it work. Like at my job a manager could go tell me to stock some milk but the time and the quality and the efficiency I stock that milk is ultimatley mine. Same thing here, while Darrah does make important decisions the actual work of developing the game belongs to the NCOs of BioWare, the Patrick Weekes's, John Epler's, and Luke Barret's, of the world and the...what dozens of other developers working on these projects can do. And no matter what EA and 'upper management' decides to do to the game I am fairly confident that the grunt level people will turn out quality work within those confines. But quality work in a game with a direction I don't like is a game I don't buy. I think that's the larger concern - does the game's direction change significantly with new management? I'm sure good work will be done regardless.
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Post by colfoley on Dec 4, 2020 8:00:59 GMT
I'm not saying such people aren't important in the grand scheme of things that of course such decision makers don't have a powerful effect on what kind of games a company produces but there is a clear distinction between those descision makers, the mid level manager 'NCO' types, and then the actual grunts who do actually make it work. Like at my job a manager could go tell me to stock some milk but the time and the quality and the efficiency I stock that milk is ultimatley mine. Same thing here, while Darrah does make important decisions the actual work of developing the game belongs to the NCOs of BioWare, the Patrick Weekes's, John Epler's, and Luke Barret's, of the world and the...what dozens of other developers working on these projects can do. And no matter what EA and 'upper management' decides to do to the game I am fairly confident that the grunt level people will turn out quality work within those confines. But quality work in a game with a direction I don't like is a game I don't buy. I think that's the larger concern - does the game's direction change significantly with new management? I'm sure good work will be done regardless. Well I mean I am getting the next Dragon Age game pretty much regardless of what they do to it so that is a moot point for me. And it does put me in a weird place when analyzing this kind of news admittedly. But I guess that does then become the point, how much leeway are we willing to give BioWare in this? I mean I really do not doubt this will change the next DA from anything too significant frm the previous one, IE a SP focused RPG...but I guess this goes back to what the comments that telanadas posted also insinuates...how much trust do we have in BioWare to experiment and push that formulae? For Bio it would take a huge divergence from their established formulae for me to consider not getting the game but for other companies that window is far narrower.
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Post by telanadas on Dec 4, 2020 8:07:21 GMT
And as much as I have a generall favorable opinion of both Mark Darrah and Casey Hudson I don't think it can be overstated...they were both still high level executives. 'Management' in other words. They aren't the ground level grunts or project leads actually developping the game, just the people making decisions from a business standpoint. That's exactly it though, them leaving as managers speaks volumes about the direction Bioware is heading especially when they are right in the middle of the development of a game as big (seemingly) as DA. When people who have stuck with a company for that long decide to up and retire(!?!?!) right in the middle of something as big as this you really do have to wonder why??? If DA4 really is on the horizon why wouldn't they stick it out til after that game is released and they can leave a legacy of managing one of the most interesting game universes of the past decade? Mark's departure is especially wtf. He was super invested in the series and has had such a big impact on the series....it is just really sad to see him leave like this.
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Post by luketrevelyan on Dec 4, 2020 8:08:32 GMT
But quality work in a game with a direction I don't like is a game I don't buy. I think that's the larger concern - does the game's direction change significantly with new management? I'm sure good work will be done regardless. Well I mean I am getting the next Dragon Age game pretty much regardless of what they do to it so that is a moot point for me. And it does put me in a weird place when analyzing this kind of news admittedly. But I guess that does then become the point, how much leeway are we willing to give BioWare in this? I mean I really do not doubt this will change the next DA from anything too significant frm the previous one, IE a SP focused RPG...but I guess this goes back to what the comments that telanadas posted also insinuates...how much trust do we have in BioWare to experiment and push that formulae? For Bio it would take a huge divergence from their established formulae for me to consider not getting the game but for other companies that window is far narrower. Yeah, admittedly they would have to do a lot for me to not get DA4. Although if it was something like Anthem that might do it. I agree I think DA4 is pretty safe but I certainly felt better about it yesterday than today. And the future beyond DA4 I can't really say. Like most here, I just want more of the same games I've come to love, while willing to accept inevitable change that doesn't steer too far off course.
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Post by Unicephalon 40-D on Dec 4, 2020 8:15:47 GMT
We'll wait and see, in the meantime there are other things to do.
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Post by colfoley on Dec 4, 2020 8:20:31 GMT
And as much as I have a generall favorable opinion of both Mark Darrah and Casey Hudson I don't think it can be overstated...they were both still high level executives. 'Management' in other words. They aren't the ground level grunts or project leads actually developping the game, just the people making decisions from a business standpoint. That's exactly it though, them leaving as managers speaks volumes about the direction Bioware is heading especially when they are right in the middle of the development of a game as big (seemingly) as DA. When people who have stuck with a company for that long decide to up and retire(!?!?!) right in the middle of something as big as this you really do have to wonder why??? If DA4 really is on the horizon why wouldn't they stick it out til after that game is released and they can leave a legacy of managing one of the most interesting game universes of the past decade? Mark's departure is especially wtf. He was super invested in the series and has had such a big impact on the series....it is just really sad to see him leave like this. I will concede to the point on it being sad. But really though from that perspective there is *never* a good time for this. Baseless speculation n how far along BioWare is with the dev of DA 4 aside...they are always pretty much *always* in the middle of developping a big project. Except for the time at the end of each year when they seem to go on vacation but right now Bio has at least 3 maybe 4 major projects in some kind of development. Dragon Age Next. Anthem Next Mass Effect Next. And quite probably TOR. And given the nature of video game devlopment this exact situation is probably going to persist until at least 2024. This is when they will get throug this current back load of projects, unless someting changes. Which then brings me back to...at least for Darrah...has been at this for 21 years. And if he wasn't going to leave now at the end of the year where production would be winding down for the year...then when? Another 2-3 years at which point he could be getting even more burned out? Hell if he did want to go of his own volition because he was running out of steam, as much as I like him, is that really someone we want sheparding BioWare/ DA into the future?
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Post by The Elder King on Dec 4, 2020 8:37:31 GMT
I’d also say that if DA4 is going to be released after in 2022 or beyond, as it seems almost surely, the game isn’t really ‘on the horizon’. Besides, based on what others said it seems Darrah and Hudson took the fall for Anthem’s failure (although I’d argue that neither was responsible for it). What does that mean for BioWare and their projects, I don’t know. I’d say the best scenario is that DA4’s vision isn’t in question anymore (I do fear that their departures mean that EA will push for a vision more similar to Anthem), and that at release it’ll be successful enough to quell EA and their intentions.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Dec 4, 2020 8:48:34 GMT
This is pretty much the answer. Only time will tell. Oh, we'll get plenty of tells in the meantime, but the final product won't be judged until it's out. Each game gets its own share of scrutiny and speculation and we've seen it confirm that scrutiny, in the past few/several releases. We'll see on release if these concessions made were worth it, but mostly, we'll see how much interest this title will drum up, on the lead up to release.
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Post by The Elder King on Dec 4, 2020 8:53:29 GMT
This is pretty much the answer. Only time will tell. Oh, we'll get plenty of tells in the meantime, but the final product won't be judged until it's out. Each game gets its own share of scrutiny and speculation and we've seen it confirm that scrutiny, in the past few/several releases. We'll see on release if these concessions made were worth it, but mostly, we'll see how much interest this title will drum up, on the lead up to release. Just to clarify, those departures got BioWare some kind of concessions from EA...like certain freedom in developing their games, or something different? And yeah, when the marketing campaign will kick in fully and we’ll get trailers and videos we’re going to know with more clarity the direction they took. Although only on release we’d know if they managed to prevent the problems they had in their recent releases.
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, SWTOR
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Post by SirSourpuss on Dec 4, 2020 8:58:49 GMT
I’d also say that if DA4 is going to be released after in 2022 or beyond, as it seems almost surely, the game isn’t really ‘on the horizon’. Besides, based on what others said it seems Darrah and Hudson took the fall for Anthem’s failure (although I’d argue that neither was responsible for it). What does that mean for BioWare and their projects, I don’t know. I’d say the best scenario is that DA4’s vision isn’t in question anymore (I do fear that their departures mean that EA will push for a vision more similar to Anthem), and that at release it’ll be successful enough to quell EA and their intentions. I don't exactly consider their reason of leaving to be "taking the blame" for the failure of Anthem. It has more to do with EA wanting more say in the direction of games going forward and Bioware seeing this as overstepping the boundaries. Bioware also wanted assurances from EA as to the continuation of their work, their projects, the staff etc. but EA, at this point, has every reason to want more to do with the development process. Ultimately, this was inevitable.
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Conquer Your Dreams
N3
Say that you love me
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
Origin: stescooter100
Posts: 938 Likes: 1,360
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Conquer Your Dreams
Say that you love me
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March 2017
ste100
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
stescooter100
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Post by Conquer Your Dreams on Dec 4, 2020 9:00:30 GMT
Same scenario like with Andromeda. FY EA.
C'mon Jason, so when can we expect next article from the series "why BioWare failed again" ?...
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October 2017
sirpetrakus
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, SWTOR
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Post by SirSourpuss on Dec 4, 2020 9:07:23 GMT
Just to clarify, those departures got BioWare some kind of concessions from EA...like certain freedom in developing their games, or something different? Mostly, support from EA in the continuation of development of projects. Casey achieved a lot. Things I wasn't all aware of. The Anthem relaunch, which I knew, the ME remaster which I didn't know, ME5 which I knew and DA4 which we all knew. So depending on how the immediate project do and by immediate I mean ME:LE, Anthem 2.0 and DA4, Bioware might earn some of that independence back as trust in the studio grows from EA management and as people that EA management trusts, staff and remain in the studio, in places EA wants them to be. The problem I have with that is how much this compromises the "Bioware experience". And yeah, when the marketing campaign will kick in fully and we’ll get trailers and videos we’re going to know with more clarity the direction they took. Although only on release we’d know if they managed to prevent the problems they had in their recent releases. I think we'll see a better game, I don't know if it will be the experience we expect out of Bioware. I'm sure Bioware will find an audience, even within the fanbase here, but I don't know if this will be the future we want for Bioware. We'll see with DA4 what that sorta looks like.
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Pounce de León
Praise the Justicat!
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Post by Pounce de León on Dec 4, 2020 9:19:36 GMT
Hudson isn't really a long-term player, is he?
And Darrah, well, sometimes you gotta try something new.
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