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Post by ClarkKent on Dec 6, 2020 22:08:03 GMT
Having a new protagonist and new cast of characters are some of the highlights of a new game for me. I liked MET approach as well but we had DA doing the opposite so it was a nice contrast. Also I feel like each cast of characters in DA has been awesome and unique. Actually the most boring companion in DAI for me was the only returning companion - Varric (who I loved in DA2). This. Getting to know a new gang each game is one of the best aspects of Dragon Age. It helps that the characters in DAI are several leagues better than the Sten and Morrigan bunch.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Dec 6, 2020 22:09:19 GMT
And yet DAI was the best selling DA I don't want to go back down that road again. Let's just say that DA:I was so successful and in such a way, that it is about to be outdone by Anthem. There are many ways to reach high sales, selling your product at a humongous discount is one of them.
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Post by gervaise21 on Dec 6, 2020 22:20:00 GMT
This. Getting to know a new gang each game is one of the best aspects of Dragon Age. I agree and that would be the case regardless of whether it was the same PC or not. After all, it was the same PC in DAA, yet we had a new cast of characters that are among my favourites. The only person I wasn't thrilled to see was the one returning character, Oghran. I would also preferred to have had a new character rather than Varric in DAI. I'm looking forward to meeting a new set of companions in the next game.
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Post by colfoley on Dec 6, 2020 22:35:38 GMT
I've never seen it as a given. New crew. Old crew. Matters mot. Just matters how well written they are. It is highly unlikely and even so, they need to be exceptionally better written. At least, the public needs to think so. Look how hard it was for TNG. And TNG had a fantastic cast. And had the added benefit of not directly competing with the TOS cast, as they were still making movies with them, all the way till 1991. So it wasn't like Kirk, Bones and Spock had been retired, when it launched and the TNG cast were taking up their slots. It's not impossible. It's very difficult and fails more often than not. Eventually, you're going to have to swap them out, or introduce new characters, but the way Bioware goes about it, isn't very audience friendly. It makes for a good starting point, until the next starting point. its just onw of those rules I've always found ludicrious. Like 'sequels are never better then the originals.' Yes they are. For me most series tend to get better with time. Same with casts with each DAs cast being better then the last. Though it will be hard to top Inquisitions.
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Post by andydandymandy on Dec 6, 2020 22:42:12 GMT
I am kind of getting tired of the Dragon Age franchise wanting it both ways.
"We want long running storylines from game to game and we want to set up villains like Solas by making him a companion in one game, but we also don't want to bring back previous heroes, we want a new one each time."
So what that means is each game becomes the new hero cleaning up the previous hero's messes and unfinished baggage. We also get weird contradictory stuff like "The Warden is searching for a cure for the calling, but we are not bringing them back, their story is over", "Hawke leaves Kirkwall and goes on the run a the end of DA2, only to come back as an NPC in the next game" and "Trespasser ties up The Inquisitor's story... by having them stab a knife on a map because they are going to look for Solas".
If BioWare really wants each Dragon Age game to have new protagonist each and every time (which they are fixated on sticking to, for whatever reason), they really should have these games be more self-contained instead of this weird long running gag where the new protagonist's primary arc is cleaning up the old baggage of the previous game's protagonist, thus ensuring that no protagonist really gets a really satisfying conclusion or their own story where they aren't just tying up someone else's loose ends.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Dec 6, 2020 23:02:58 GMT
its just onw of those rules I've always found ludicrious. Like 'sequels are never better then the originals.' I'd say that's 50/50. A lot of franchises have great sequels. And there are franchises that span decades that have more than a couple good movies to their name. But it is also known that sequels make money. And lets forget Paul Blart: Mall Cop, for a second. Terminator, Alien, James fucking Bond, Star Wars, Star Trek, all have at least one movie sequel in their respective franchises that is considered better than the original, or is at least contested. My favourite Police Academy is #4 and my favourite Naked Gun is 2½. Lethal Weapon 2> Leathal Weapon. You guys can sue me, if you want.
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linksocarina
N5
Always teacher, sometimes writer
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
PSN: LinksOcarina
Posts: 3,186 Likes: 4,072
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Post by linksocarina on Dec 6, 2020 23:15:08 GMT
So, I GM a lot of tabletop, and for my own customized setting I have a 'fixed timeline' where events that occur on and off-screen, so to speak, are part of the continuity for my players.
There is a core group of four people who have been in three separate campaigns in this world, all three different stories, territories, slightly different times (only about 6 years have passed in-game between the three groups) and each giving the world their own customized flavor. I got a cast of surviving player characters, organizations and NPCs that they interact with, some which love the references, like when I bring back a smuggling ring known as The White Rose Society or have a new group stumble upon a map leading to a Dragon Orb sought by three rival factions, and so on and so on. These are elements introduced in previous campaigns that become references or goals for the players, if they so choose, since I tend to give them some freedom to do whatever they wish.
The point I am bring up here, is that it is possible to have people invested in your world with their own characters and conflicts, and with returning characters, NPCs and PCs adding flavor, and even dramatic effect to the proceedings. The focus of it being organic is what really interests me, and honestly, Dragon Age has pretty much always been about that. Hawke has little to do with the Wardens story, just like the Inquisitor has little to do with theirs. The connections are maybe a few companions and characters, but never actual plot threads.
For whatever the next Dragon Age will be, I am sure they will continue this. I'll be honest, Trespasser never screamed to me as a continuation of the Inquisitor's story (hard to continue when you don't have an arm anymore) but rather a cliffhanger to the place where we are going next, and that really is the point in the end. The world is really the star of the show, and the characters that populate it are the actors for each play.
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Post by colfoley on Dec 6, 2020 23:17:16 GMT
I am kind of getting tired of the Dragon Age franchise wanting it both ways. "We want long running storylines from game to game and we want to set up villains like Solas by making him a companion in one game, but we also don't want to bring back previous heroes, we want a new one each time." So what that means is each game becomes the new hero cleaning up the previous hero's messes and unfinished baggage. We also get weird contradictory stuff like "The Warden is searching for a cure for the calling, but we are not bringing them back, their story is over", "Hawke leaves Kirkwall and goes on the run a the end of DA2, only to come back as an NPC in the next game" and "Trespasser ties up The Inquisitor's story... by having them stab a knife on a map because they are going to look for Solas". If BioWare really wants each Dragon Age game to have new protagonist each and every time (which they are fixated on sticking to, for whatever reason), they really should have these games be more self-contained instead of this weird long running gag where the new protagonist's primary arc is cleaning up the old baggage of the previous game's protagonist, thus ensuring that no protagonist really gets a really satisfying conclusion or their own story where they aren't just tying up someone else's loose ends. where is it written that long running storylines means returning characters protagonists? The Warden looking for a cure to the calling is a cameo. A weird one granted maybe. Hawk returning in the game was just tying up loose ends. Probably a reference to how they would have dealt with Corypheus. And right before the map stabby bit the Inquisitor mentions new people would have to stop Solas. Really the only character that felt like they had unfinished business was Hawk. And a lot of that has to do with Exalted March getting canceled. The Inquisitor and Warden both had complete stories.
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Post by ClarkKent on Dec 6, 2020 23:22:07 GMT
I like to think my Inqusiitor settled down to write his memoirs after Trespasser.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Dec 6, 2020 23:23:44 GMT
I got a cast of surviving player characters, organizations and NPCs that they interact with, some which love the references So in other words, your players want the familiarity and continuation of these characters. When you play D&D and one of the players looses their character, it is not an easy event for that player. Obviously, these characters mean a lot and the characters that accompany them, as well. It's no different for video games, either. Shit, I remember losing my Ogre slaying Kender to a dragon, during a session I couldn't attend, because one of the other players took up my character, in order to keep a full group. My Kender's wonderlust kept him from getting scared of the Dragon, as the entire party fled. So I got fast frozen in a white Dragon's cone of cold breath. Mr. Tommy Nimblefingers died a hero and is sorely missed to this day. 7
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Post by andydandymandy on Dec 6, 2020 23:56:39 GMT
I am kind of getting tired of the Dragon Age franchise wanting it both ways. "We want long running storylines from game to game and we want to set up villains like Solas by making him a companion in one game, but we also don't want to bring back previous heroes, we want a new one each time." So what that means is each game becomes the new hero cleaning up the previous hero's messes and unfinished baggage. We also get weird contradictory stuff like "The Warden is searching for a cure for the calling, but we are not bringing them back, their story is over", "Hawke leaves Kirkwall and goes on the run a the end of DA2, only to come back as an NPC in the next game" and "Trespasser ties up The Inquisitor's story... by having them stab a knife on a map because they are going to look for Solas". If BioWare really wants each Dragon Age game to have new protagonist each and every time (which they are fixated on sticking to, for whatever reason), they really should have these games be more self-contained instead of this weird long running gag where the new protagonist's primary arc is cleaning up the old baggage of the previous game's protagonist, thus ensuring that no protagonist really gets a really satisfying conclusion or their own story where they aren't just tying up someone else's loose ends. where is it written that long running storylines means returning characters protagonists? The Warden looking for a cure to the calling is a cameo. A weird one granted maybe. Hawk returning in the game was just tying up loose ends. Probably a reference to how they would have dealt with Corypheus. And right before the map stabby bit the Inquisitor mentions new people would have to stop Solas. Really the only character that felt like they had unfinished business was Hawk. And a lot of that has to do with Exalted March getting canceled. The Inquisitor and Warden both had complete stories. The Warden had a complete story... until Dragon Age 2 and Inquisition had them going on a search for the cure for The Calling.
The Inquisitor did NOT have a complete story. They didn't even have their own villain in their own game (Corypheus was Hawke's villain from Hawke's last piece of DLC), and we spent most of their story setting up a villain that the Inquisitor isn't even going to get to fight.
Hawke returning to "tie up loose ends" is part of the problem I am talking about. If I am playing a new game with a new protagonist, I don't want to spend a ton of time having that new protagonist trying to help the previous hero clean up their shit. I want that new protagonist to actually have their own story, with their own villain, and actually get to end their story instead of having someone else coming in to finish it.
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linksocarina
N5
Always teacher, sometimes writer
Teaching Mode Activated
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
PSN: LinksOcarina
Posts: 3,186 Likes: 4,072
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Post by linksocarina on Dec 7, 2020 0:01:44 GMT
I got a cast of surviving player characters, organizations and NPCs that they interact with, some which love the references So in other words, your players want the familiarity and continuation of these characters. When you play D&D and one of the players looses their character, it is not an easy event for that player. Obviously, these characters mean a lot and the characters that accompany them, as well. It's no different for video games, either. Shit, I remember losing my Ogre slaying Kender to a dragon, during a session I couldn't attend, because one of the other players took up my character, in order to keep a full group. My Kender's wonderlust kept him from getting scared of the Dragon, as the entire party fled. So I got fast frozen in a white Dragon's cone of cold breath. Mr. Tommy Nimblefingers died a hero and is sorely missed to this day. 7 Actually they dont want it. They love when it happens though. It's a different campaign and the new narratives are what the focus is. Having a crime lord a previous game dealt with show up in a cameo is beneficial since it connects the world and the setting, for example. Its. It's not expected, it's a surprise.
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Post by river82 on Dec 7, 2020 0:56:59 GMT
For whatever the next Dragon Age will be, I am sure they will continue this. I'll be honest, Trespasser never screamed to me as a continuation of the Inquisitor's story (hard to continue when you don't have an arm anymore) but rather a cliffhanger to the place where we are going next, and that really is the point in the end. The world is really the star of the show, and the characters that populate it are the actors for each play. It's becoming more and more evident that this is the case It's a perfectly valid way to go, it's just not my cup of tea is all. Anyway the Trespasser thing. I never played Trespasser but it sounds like a piece of content halfway between games to set up the next conflict. FF14 does this, they have 5 post expansion patches, the first 3 wrap up the current expansion and the last 2 set up the next expansion. I think the Origin expansion Awakenings would have been better if it set up DA:2 instead of dealing with the aftermath of Origins
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Post by biggydx on Dec 7, 2020 1:03:28 GMT
You can't have a character centric franchise, where the characters are expendable. I'm just not going to care. And I know it's going to sound hypocritical coming from me, who ditched the ME1 crew for ME2's, (not entirely, but significantly) but in my defense, Bioware really upped their game with the ME2 squadmates. In rare occasions, you can create a new roster that outshines the original. It's not often. Which is why I don't condone trying, unless extraneous circumstances. Even so, a returning cast has a vastly different dynamic from a new crew. Always. I don't know if I agree with that - as if its true to a tee. Even though I didn't finish RDR2, both RDR & RDR2 had pretty good character performances (based on my experience w/ RDR and critic reviews of RDR2).
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Post by SirSourpuss on Dec 7, 2020 1:34:25 GMT
I don't know if I agree with that - as if its true to a tee. Even though I didn't finish RDR2, both RDR & RDR2 had pretty good character performances (based on my experience w/ RDR and critic reviews of RDR2). Emotional investment is still an investment and emotional ones tend to be long term. Do you have the reserve to do it for every new title? Yes? Good for you. Some people get burnt out. DA has burnt me out emotionally. Not only was I not pleased with the DA2 and DA:I crew, but alongside Andromeda and Anthem, Bioware has made me not interested in any new crew. I was open to the idea of a new ME crew, with ME:A, although I didn't expect miracles, but that's put me off completely. If Bioware returns to ME, I would urge them not to underestimate the burnout. Either bring Ryder and co. back, or Shepard and co. For DA, do whatever you want. I don't really care at this point. I won't even be following its progress, as I already am not.
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Post by colfoley on Dec 7, 2020 2:20:47 GMT
where is it written that long running storylines means returning characters protagonists? The Warden looking for a cure to the calling is a cameo. A weird one granted maybe. Hawk returning in the game was just tying up loose ends. Probably a reference to how they would have dealt with Corypheus. And right before the map stabby bit the Inquisitor mentions new people would have to stop Solas. Really the only character that felt like they had unfinished business was Hawk. And a lot of that has to do with Exalted March getting canceled. The Inquisitor and Warden both had complete stories. The Warden had a complete story... until Dragon Age 2 and Inquisition had them going on a search for the cure for The Calling.
The Inquisitor did NOT have a complete story. They didn't even have their own villain in their own game (Corypheus was Hawke's villain from Hawke's last piece of DLC), and we spent most of their story setting up a villain that the Inquisitor isn't even going to get to fight.
Hawke returning to "tie up loose ends" is part of the problem I am talking about. If I am playing a new game with a new protagonist, I don't want to spend a ton of time having that new protagonist trying to help the previous hero clean up their shit. I want that new protagonist to actually have their own story, with their own villain, and actually get to end their story instead of having someone else coming in to finish it. Dragon Age Origins: The Warden's main objective was to defeat the Blight, their main antagonist was the Archdemon...or Loghain. They fullfilled their objectives in that game. A mention in a letter which takes 5 minutes to read does not change that. Dragon Age 2: Hawke's main antagonists were poverty, the Arishock, and Knight Commander Meredith. Each one of these took about 15 hours to deal with. A 2.5 hour DLC with Corypheus as the threat does not change that. Inquisition: The Inquisitor's main objectives was to close the breach, find who was responsible, and then stop them. This person was Corypheus. We spent 80-100 hours dealing with that threat. A ten minute cutscene at the end of a DLC in which Solas wasn't even the main threat in said DLC does not change that either. Yes, we now know some specifics on the Exalted March being cancelled and what that meant for their plans for the series that they basically had to call an audible. We know that Corypheus would have been dealt with by Hawke there now. This probably expains why the process was not entirely smooth. But on the other hand at least Bio stuck to their guns and did not entirely drop the plotline. And Corypheus wasn't Hawk's antagonist despite their intention to make him theirs originally. Corypheus became the Inquisitor's antagonist. And now we have at least a pretty good idea that no matter what Solas's effect on the plot line for Inquisition and kick starting events that Solas is not the Inquisitor's antagonist either. Companion, friend, maybe even lover, but not antagonist. That is up to a future protagonist to solve. Sure this might seem like sloppy seconds but I do not accept that viewpoint given how little Corypheus showed up in DA 2 and considering how little time Solas spent hostile to the Inquisitor.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Dec 7, 2020 4:52:30 GMT
The Warden had a complete story... until Dragon Age 2 and Inquisition had them going on a search for the cure for The Calling.
The Inquisitor did NOT have a complete story. They didn't even have their own villain in their own game (Corypheus was Hawke's villain from Hawke's last piece of DLC), and we spent most of their story setting up a villain that the Inquisitor isn't even going to get to fight.
Hawke returning to "tie up loose ends" is part of the problem I am talking about. If I am playing a new game with a new protagonist, I don't want to spend a ton of time having that new protagonist trying to help the previous hero clean up their shit. I want that new protagonist to actually have their own story, with their own villain, and actually get to end their story instead of having someone else coming in to finish it. Dragon Age Origins: The Warden's main objective was to defeat the Blight, their main antagonist was the Archdemon...or Loghain. They fullfilled their objectives in that game. A mention in a letter which takes 5 minutes to read does not change that. Dragon Age 2: Hawke's main antagonists were poverty, the Arishock, and Knight Commander Meredith. Each one of these took about 15 hours to deal with. A 2.5 hour DLC with Corypheus as the threat does not change that. Inquisition: The Inquisitor's main objectives was to close the breach, find who was responsible, and then stop them. This person was Corypheus. We spent 80-100 hours dealing with that threat. A ten minute cutscene at the end of a DLC in which Solas wasn't even the main threat in said DLC does not change that either. Yes, we now know some specifics on the Exalted March being cancelled and what that meant for their plans for the series that they basically had to call an audible. We know that Corypheus would have been dealt with by Hawke there now. This probably expains why the process was not entirely smooth. But on the other hand at least Bio stuck to their guns and did not entirely drop the plotline. And Corypheus wasn't Hawk's antagonist despite their intention to make him theirs originally. Corypheus became the Inquisitor's antagonist. And now we have at least a pretty good idea that no matter what Solas's effect on the plot line for Inquisition and kick starting events that Solas is not the Inquisitor's antagonist either. Companion, friend, maybe even lover, but not antagonist. That is up to a future protagonist to solve. Sure this might seem like sloppy seconds but I do not accept that viewpoint given how little Corypheus showed up in DA 2 and considering how little time Solas spent hostile to the Inquisitor. No, Solas was the one responsible. And the Hawke/Corypheus comparison to Inquisitor/Solas falls apart for one simple reason: Hawke thought Corypheus was dealt with. They killed him and made sure he was dead. Corypheus didn’t show up later and tell Hawke what he planned to do and Hawke didn’t swear to stop him. Again, if DAI didn’t have Trespasser with only the player not the character knowing about Solas having a new PC would be fine. But Trespasser made that connection. That made Solas the Inquisitor’s antagonist. But no, BioWare decided to duck over that character and story just to follow some dumbass arbitrary rule they set for themselves, writing competence and potential be damned.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Dec 7, 2020 4:57:03 GMT
He told the Inquisitor not everyone. And the Inquisitor would tell their inner circle about it in turn. Then apparently fuck off not caring about themselves, their loved ones, or anyone else.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Dec 7, 2020 4:58:41 GMT
That said, Trespasser did end their story as Lord Inquisitor of Thedas and Herald of Andraste (although for me that ended after Adamant). It is clear from the epilogue that they do intend to continue being involved but the necessity to find "new people Solas doesn't know" was the clue they will be doing this from the background going forward but they will continue to be involved with the story and at some point their path is going to converge with the new PC, whether they are directly connected or not, assuming of course that the new PC knows about Solas and their primary aim is also to stop him. (If it isn't then I for one will spend the game wondering what is happening on that front rather than getting invested in anything else). Yh. TN also shows they're still involved in some way. It's never been the case that to be involved or for their story to continue in some manner that they need to be the PC. So they’ll become a completely bastardized version of themselves like are an, the Exile, or Hawke. Oh joy, so much better.
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The Elder King
N6
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Prime Posts: 19631
Posts: 6,370 Likes: 8,285
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Post by The Elder King on Dec 7, 2020 6:33:29 GMT
It seems that EA’s executives will be presence during TGA’s pre-show, which will have 5 World Premieres. Now, Geoff’s tweet mentioned DA’s presence at the Game Awards, so it seems to me whatever they’ll show will be in the main show, but I guess it’d be best to check the pre-show as well. If nothing else, 5 new games will be shown.
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Post by colfoley on Dec 7, 2020 6:40:12 GMT
It seems that EA’s executives will be presence during TGA’s pre-show, which will have 5 World Premieres. Now, Geoff’s tweet mentioned DA’s presence at the Game Awards, so it seems to me whatever they’ll show will be in the main show, but I guess it’d be best to check the pre-show as well. If nothing else, 5 new games will be shown. When's the pre show?
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The Elder King
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Prime Posts: 19631
Posts: 6,370 Likes: 8,285
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by The Elder King on Dec 7, 2020 6:41:43 GMT
It seems that EA’s executives will be presence during TGA’s pre-show, which will have 5 World Premieres. Now, Geoff’s tweet mentioned DA’s presence at the Game Awards, so it seems to me whatever they’ll show will be in the main show, but I guess it’d be best to check the pre-show as well. If nothing else, 5 new games will be shown. When's the pre show? From what I saw, a half hour earlier then the actual show.
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Absafraginlootly
"Abso-fraggin-lutely!" ~ Captain John Sheridan and Satai Delenn
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absafraginlootly
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
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Post by Absafraginlootly on Dec 7, 2020 7:13:36 GMT
It seems that EA’s executives will be presence during TGA’s pre-show, which will have 5 World Premieres. Now, Geoff’s tweet mentioned DA’s presence at the Game Awards, so it seems to me whatever they’ll show will be in the main show, but I guess it’d be best to check the pre-show as well. If nothing else, 5 new games will be shown. When's the pre show? According to the YouTube trailers description
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Dec 11, 2024 18:40:24 GMT
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biggydx
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by biggydx on Dec 7, 2020 15:09:37 GMT
From what I saw, a half hour earlier then the actual show. My guess is that it'll be DA4, the next Battlefield, maybe a teaser from Respawn regarding a new Titanfall, and possibly some indie titles they lead.
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The Elder King
N6
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Prime Posts: 19631
Posts: 6,370 Likes: 8,285
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8,285
The Elder King
6,370
August 2016
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by The Elder King on Dec 7, 2020 15:32:01 GMT
From what I saw, a half hour earlier then the actual show. My guess is that it'll be DA4, the next Battlefield, maybe a teaser from Respawn regarding a new Titanfall, and possibly some indie titles they lead. You’re referring to the full EA-related presence at TGA, or in the pre-show? I don’t think the latter would be focused only on EA.
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