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Post by gervaise21 on Feb 22, 2021 18:46:30 GMT
Remember that a romanced Fenris is left behind by Hawke because Fenris would have died to protect Hawke, and Hawke "didn't want to give him the choice." How would you feel if the love of your life, even knowing you're a former slave, decides to take away your choice? Actually the suggestion that Hawke gave Fenris no say in the matter, which I admit is how it sounded in DAI, is why I rather resented the way they dealt with that. In fact it was a rather lame excuse for Fenris not being with them. Of course Fenris would have died to protect my Hawke but the feeling was mutual and as expressed between them at the end of DA2 if they were going into danger they were going to do it together. I never really understood why they split up at the end of DA2 if they were just friends because what would be the point? Would Hawke be any safer without Fenris? The only thing I could think of was that his markings are rather distinctive so it might be rather difficult to go incognito with Fenris around. However, I thought that would be something that Fenris would decide for himself rather than Hawke insisting on it. Personally I would rather have my friend by my side so long as he wanted to be there. So if it makes you feel any better, it is not so much a criticism of you but the whole way the fate of Fenris was handled post DA2. There's no way Old Fenris would have petted a dog. Yes he would if the mabari let him. He got on really well with Hawke's mabari but I don't recall anyone actually petting him/her so perhaps it was the dog who discouraged too much petting rather than Fenris not wanting to.
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Post by necrowaif on Feb 22, 2021 19:15:12 GMT
Isabela patted the dog’s head (while complaining about it). Sebastian bowed to him. Varric taught him Diamondback. Merrill told him a story. Anders whined about preferring cats. Fenris told you that mabari originated in Tevinter, but didn’t really interact with the dog.
Thus, his character developed into someone who would pet a big lovable dog.
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Post by nunziodefilippis on Feb 22, 2021 20:06:05 GMT
Hey all, Not gonna wade too much into the discussion of "sacrifice" in the solicit text or the fear of characters changing in a bad way. I will say that most of these characters were created by me and Christina (and two of the others were created by Greg Rucka, who's actually my best friend), so know that whatever we do with them is done with an eye to what's best for the character's story (which isn't always what's best for them as a person, I know). I hope that helps. Well, that makes me worry even more than I was before. That's a great gif. But just know that we wrote this towards conclusions that made sense for the characters. Things we've been setting up since Knight Errant will be paid off in this mini, and while we have every intention of writing more, we wrote this to be a conclusion we'd be happy with if this were our last miniseries. So the changes the characters will undergo will fit with what has come before. Again, for what that's worth. Remember that a romanced Fenris is left behind by Hawke because Fenris would have died to protect Hawke, and Hawke "didn't want to give him the choice." How would you feel if the love of your life, even knowing you're a former slave, decides to take away your choice? Actually the suggestion that Hawke gave Fenris no say in the matter, which I admit is how it sounded in DAI, is why I rather resented the way they dealt with that. In fact it was a rather lame excuse for Fenris not being with them. Of course Fenris would have died to protect my Hawke but the feeling was mutual and as expressed between them at the end of DA2 if they were going into danger they were going to do it together. I never really understood why they split up at the end of DA2 if they were just friends because what would be the point? Would Hawke be any safer without Fenris? The only thing I could think of was that his markings are rather distinctive so it might be rather difficult to go incognito with Fenris around. However, I thought that would be something that Fenris would decide for himself rather than Hawke insisting on it. Personally I would rather have my friend by my side so long as he wanted to be there. So if it makes you feel any better, it is not so much a criticism of you but the whole way the fate of Fenris was handled post DA2. I remember reaching the end of DA II and being sad they all went their separate ways. I wasn't angry, because it seemed like something that would or could happen. But I was sad because there's such a "found family" vibe for Hawke and his friends, and splitting up felt like such a sad outcome. And when romancing Fenris, to have the reveal in DA I that Hawke just left Fenris to give him no choice... however well intentioned that is, it's exactly the wrong way to handle it. Now, Hawke's not perfect, so again... wasn't angry. But I remember feeling that Fenris wouldn't forgive that easily. And Hawke volunteers to stay in the Fade, no matter what his/her romance status is... that was a moment where I realized that anyone romancing Hawke will face the same issue. Hawke's need to fix problems and get involved will always come before any relationship. I think that influenced how we wrote Fenris. He gave words to our sadness about all of it. Isabela pet the dog (while complaining about it). Sebastian bowed to him. Varric played cards. Merrill told him a story. Anders whined about preferring cats. Fenris told you that mabari originated in Tevinter, but didn’t really interact with the dog. Thus, his character developed into someone who would pet a big lovable dog. The way we saw it, Fenris' story reflected a sense of kindred spirits with the Mabari (he too was a tool of the Tevinter who found his own path), but he was too closed off to act on it. The Autumn scenes were definitely to show how much he'd grown, because now he can give that affection freely.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Feb 22, 2021 21:08:22 GMT
Well, that makes me worry even more than I was before. That's a great gif. But just know that we wrote this towards conclusions that made sense for the characters. Things we've been setting up since Knight Errant will be paid off in this mini, and while we have every intention of writing more, we wrote this to be a conclusion we'd be happy with if this were our last miniseries. So the changes the characters will undergo will fit with what has come before. Again, for what that's worth. Thanks. I get that. It potentially being the last might be part of the problem since your comics are the only part of Dragon Age I still look forward to. Another part is just a lot of comics or shows I've followed when they use terms like that also mean "everyone becomes monsters or condone monstrous actions" with the genuinely good characters either changing like that or being killed off. So that's one thing I'm worried about and the "better for a character story even if not for the a character as a person" you said earlier worried me more. To use the Vaea worry I mentioned earlier, to use another pacifist in the series it'd be like if after Josephine accidentally killed her friend while defending herself, instead of seeing that as a tragedy and blaming herself using as fuel for her diplomatic ideals she just went the hardened Leliana route and no longer cared. Especially if that's where the story ended, so there isn't even the possibility of turning back like Francesca did. I know I'm probably worrying over nothing, it's not like I shouldn't trust you since I've loved all your comics in this series, but etween this being my last connection to a franchise I once loved as well as being burned many times before I can't help it.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Feb 22, 2021 21:42:29 GMT
As for the Hawke abandoning their friends and/or love topic, yeah I didn't like that either. Then again there's no part of DAI Hawke I did like, they were handled so poorly.
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Post by nunziodefilippis on Mar 3, 2021 17:54:41 GMT
As for the Hawke abandoning their friends and/or love topic, yeah I didn't like that either. Then again there's no part of DAI Hawke I did like, they were handled so poorly. I don't think Hawke was handled poorly at all. I think the game exposed what is a logical consequence of being involved with Hawke. When things get ugly, Hawke runs right to the center of it. That can't be easily for his/her friends, family, or love interest. I do think it shattered a lot of people's expectations of what would become of Hawke's romance, specifically. But it actually felt true to the character as it broke my heart.
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Post by witchcocktor on Mar 3, 2021 18:07:57 GMT
As for the Hawke abandoning their friends and/or love topic, yeah I didn't like that either. Then again there's no part of DAI Hawke I did like, they were handled so poorly. I don't think Hawke was handled poorly at all. I think the game exposed what is a logical consequence of being involved with Hawke. When things get ugly, Hawke runs right to the center of it. That can't be easily for his friends, family, or love interest. I do think it shattered a lot of people's expectations of what would become of Hawke's romance, specifically. But it actually felt true to the character as it broke my heart. Are there any characters (or rather PCs) in this game who wouldn't sacrifice themselves '' for the greater good '' because they wouldn't want to hurt their loved ones by dying even if it meant something probably positive would come of it? It seems like everyone is ready to die at all times! And for what? For Thedas!? Place is a shit hole that doesn't get fixed no matter how many heroes emerge and sacrifice themselves heroically. Can't wait to see what heroic sacrifices land on Inquisitors feet in DA4!
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Post by gervaise21 on Mar 3, 2021 18:48:01 GMT
I think the game exposed what is a logical consequence of being involved with Hawke. When things get ugly, Hawke runs right to the center of it. That can't be easily for his friends, family, or love interest. To be fair not everyone played their Hawke like that. Some Hawke's would have been selfish egocentrics who were only out for themselves or totally ruthless. Would a Hawke who sold out Fenris and let Denarius have him back, or totally supported Meredith and the status quo because they had an eye on being Viscount, really be the sort of person who would volunteer to be left in the Fade? As for my Hawke, whilst they were the heroic type, I really couldn't see the logic of them thinking that Corypheus was their mess to fix. Their family had only become involved because the Wardens originally blackmailed their father into assisting them and down the years the Wardens had then neglected their duty in guarding the place, so poor unfortunates ended up being trapped, plus forgot that all Wardens were vulnerable to his influence but particularly mages. It was definitely a Warden responsibility and thus it seemed only right to me that a Warden, particularly a senior Warden who was likely near his Calling anyway as Stroud was, should be the one to do the noble sacrifice. After all, Corypheus was just the equivalent of an Arch-demon with more independence of thought. However, taking out the Nightmare Demon only weakened Corypheus but he would still be out there and need dealing with, so if Hawke really wanted to be the one to take him down, they needed to stay alive to do so. Of course, this didn't happen and instead of sticking around to deal with him, Hawke pushed off up to Weisshaupt to do very little so far as I can tell. Ditto, Stroud/Alistair/Loghain who Hawke claimed they were leaving alive to help re-build the Wardens (in the south) only for them to head off north and never be heard of again. To be honest, I never really like the Warden plot in DAI and thought the collective idiocy they succumbed too was ridiculous, so there was no way I was sacrificing my Hawke when it should never have been necessary in the first place.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Mar 3, 2021 18:52:20 GMT
As for the Hawke abandoning their friends and/or love topic, yeah I didn't like that either. Then again there's no part of DAI Hawke I did like, they were handled so poorly. I don't think Hawke was handled poorly at all. I think the game exposed what is a logical consequence of being involved with Hawke. When things get ugly, Hawke runs right to the center of it. That can't be easily for his friends, family, or love interest. I do think it shattered a lot of people's expectations of what would become of Hawke's romance, specifically. But it actually felt true to the character as it broke my heart. Well, my Hawke called his love Merrill a monster when he said all blood mages were multiple times, despite not having an issue with her using it and agreeing with her views on the matter. So that was handled poorly in my opinion. Not saying the part you’re talking about is wrong, though how I played my Hawke they would have joined the Inquisition a lot sooner.
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Post by gervaise21 on Mar 3, 2021 19:16:14 GMT
though how I played my Hawke they would have joined the Inquisition a lot sooner. That was another thing that bothered me too. Since the epilogue to DA2 made it clear Cassandra was looking for Hawke to help with the mage/Templar situation and then the Conclave went boom, why did it take Varric so long to let Hawke know what was going on? Not to mention that if my Lavellan's Dalish clan could hear about the Conclave, then surely Hawke could too, no matter how much in hiding they were? So if "when things get ugly" Hawke "runs right into the centre of it", why did it take so long for them to make an appearance on the scene?
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Post by Hrungr on Mar 3, 2021 19:50:57 GMT
though how I played my Hawke they would have joined the Inquisition a lot sooner. That was another thing that bothered me too. Since the epilogue to DA2 made it clear Cassandra was looking for Hawke to help with the mage/Templar situation and then the Conclave went boom, why did it take Varric so long to let Hawke know what was going on? Not to mention that if my Lavellan's Dalish clan could hear about the Conclave, then surely Hawke could too, no matter how much in hiding they were? So if "when things get ugly" Hawke "runs right into the centre of it", why did it take so long for them to make an appearance on the scene? In the end, it's really a question of "At what point do we introduce Hawke that works best for the game?"
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Post by necrowaif on Mar 3, 2021 20:05:05 GMT
It can be very simply explained by the fact that Varric wanted to protect Hawke from this mess, and up until Corypheus appeared on the scene, there wasn't really a compelling reason to get them involved with the Inquisition.
"Even so, Hawke could have helped." How? Hawke can't close Rifts. What would Hawke really contributed aside from being a talented warrior/mage/rogue, of which the Inquisition had no shortage of?
Also, remember that Hawke is disliked by either the Templars or the Mages, and their presence could complicate matters with the Inquisition's allies.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Mar 3, 2021 20:08:46 GMT
That was another thing that bothered me too. Since the epilogue to DA2 made it clear Cassandra was looking for Hawke to help with the mage/Templar situation and then the Conclave went boom, why did it take Varric so long to let Hawke know what was going on? Not to mention that if my Lavellan's Dalish clan could hear about the Conclave, then surely Hawke could too, no matter how much in hiding they were? So if "when things get ugly" Hawke "runs right into the centre of it", why did it take so long for them to make an appearance on the scene? In the end, it's really a question of "At what point do we introduce Hawke that works best for the game?" And that's one of many reasons I fear the Inquisitor being a NPC in DA4. It can be very simply explained by the fact that Varric wanted to protect Hawke, and up until Corypheus appeared on the scene, there wasn't really a compelling reason to get them involved with the Inquisition. What would Hawke really contributed aside from being a talented warrior/mage/rogue, of which the Inquisition had no shortage of? "The world's at stake! Let's not have every advantage we can get." Varric, apparently. I fear for Kirkwall under his rule. Also Hawke could have served as a beacon for one side of the Mage-Templar War. For example say Hawke sides with the mages in DA2. In DAI, have Hawke talk to the mages and Inquisitor talk to the Templars. Boom, gain allies from both. That's why they were looking for Hawke.
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Post by necrowaif on Mar 3, 2021 20:13:02 GMT
Well, pardon Varric for viewing Hawke as a friend and not an expendable resource.
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Post by witchcocktor on Mar 3, 2021 20:25:31 GMT
Yeah I don't really see the issue with Varric wanting to keep Hawke out of another big mess. I'm not even sure that Hawke had any interest whatsoever in what's going on until Corypheus revealed himself.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Mar 3, 2021 20:47:08 GMT
Well, pardon Varric for viewing Hawke as a friend and not an expendable resource. First, not every Hawke is friends with Varric. Second, Varric viewing Hawke as a possession only he can have is even worse. Yeah I don't really see the issue with Varric wanting to keep Hawke out of another big mess. I'm not even sure that Hawke had any interest whatsoever in what's going on until Corypheus revealed himself.And that's the issue. Many Hawkes would have an interest, since they are all aout helping people. But come DAI, all of a sudden they don't care about anyone until it personally involves them.
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Post by necrowaif on Mar 3, 2021 21:22:12 GMT
Rivalry is just a different kind of relationship; it doesn't infer that Varric and Hawke are enemies, or that Varric lacks loyalty to Hawke. I rivalled the shit out of Isabela and she still came back at the end of Act 2.
And it's hardly about viewing Hawke as a "possession." You have really weird ideas about friendship, among other things.
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Post by cuthbertbeckett on Mar 3, 2021 22:18:06 GMT
First, not every Hawke is friends with Varric. Second, Varric viewing Hawke as a possession only he can have is even worse. Varric to Cassandra: "You kidnapped me! You interrogated me! What did you expect?"
Exatly what do you expect Hanako?!? Varric protected his friend or on rival well he still doesn´t like Cassandra.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Mar 3, 2021 22:36:28 GMT
First, not every Hawke is friends with Varric. Second, Varric viewing Hawke as a possession only he can have is even worse. Varric to Cassandra: "You kidnapped me! You interrogated me! What did you expect?"
Exatly what do you expect Hanako?!? Varric protected his friend or on rival well he still doesn´t like Cassandra.
Out of Varric? Nothing. As Cassandra correctly states, Varric is just a snake that does everything to benefit himself. Like how even after knowing the truth he does nothing. Out of Hawke? Already stated. Many player’s Hawkes would have been there since Haven to help.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Mar 3, 2021 22:51:58 GMT
Rivalry is just a different kind of relationship; it doesn't infer that Varric and Hawke are enemies, or that Varric lacks loyalty to Hawke. I rivalled the shit out of Isabela and she still came back at the end of Act 2. And it's hardly about viewing Hawke as a "possession." You have really weird ideas about friendship, among other things. There has been a bunch of debates about the Friendship/Rivalry system and how ridiculous it was. “You hate everything about me and what I stand for, but let’s be a couple and I’ll support you in anything.” So I’m not interested in hashing that up in here. As for the second bit. I know, I was being hyperbolic. No weirder than like calling them an expendable resource as you put it though. But I see we’ve entered the personal jabs part of this, so best the topic be dropped.
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Post by cuthbertbeckett on Mar 3, 2021 23:05:36 GMT
Out of Varric? Nothing. As Cassandra correctly states, Varric is just a snake that does everything to benefit himself. Like how even after knowing the truth he does nothing. Out of Hawke? Already stated. Many player’s Hawkes would have been there since Haven to help. You and your Hawke doesn´t deserve Varric. He isn´t a snake he is a true friend to wants to protect Hawke. And yes this is protection because he couldn´t have known what Cassandra did to Hawke if he told her early. Maybe Cassandra could have killed Hawke highly unlikely i know but for Varric point of view he couldn´t have ruled this out.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Mar 3, 2021 23:17:34 GMT
Out of Varric? Nothing. As Cassandra correctly states, Varric is just a snake that does everything to benefit himself. Like how even after knowing the truth he does nothing. Out of Hawke? Already stated. Many player’s Hawkes would have been there since Haven to help. You and your Hawke doesn´t deserve Varric. He isn´t a snake he is a true friend to wants to protect Hawke. And yes this is protection because he couldn´t have known what Cassandra did to Hawke if he told her early. Maybe Cassandra could have killed Hawke highly unlikely i know but for Varric point of view he couldn´t have ruled this out.
Varric doesn’t deserve me or my Hawkes. Or my Inquisitors or anyone else. But BioWare forces us to be buddy buddy with him, instead of being able to kick him out. Early on, I get that. But after, when Varric knows the truth but still doesn’t say, that’s different and proves he is a lying selfish snake. But as I said above, since it’s reached the point of personal jabs this should be dropped. Doesn’t involve comics anymore anyway.
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Post by cuthbertbeckett on Mar 3, 2021 23:51:41 GMT
Varric doesn’t deserve me or my Hawkes. Or my Inquisitors or anyone else. Well i am very glad for the fact that this is just your pretty rare opinion. Just "kick him out" ?!? You disappoint here Hanako why not kill him for this unspeakable crime? Protection a friend yeah that´s really a bad thing right... I know that Varric is just a fictional character but lets say i am glad you and me aren´t friends. I am grateul for this that we can end this discussion about Varric a character almost everyone in DA community
loves or atleast likes well unlike you of course.
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Post by Buckeldemon on Mar 4, 2021 7:00:45 GMT
I don't think Hawke was handled poorly at all. I think the game exposed what is a logical consequence of being involved with Hawke. When things get ugly, Hawke runs right to the center of it. That can't be easily for his friends, family, or love interest. I do think it shattered a lot of people's expectations of what would become of Hawke's romance, specifically. But it actually felt true to the character as it broke my heart. Well, my Hawke called his love Merrill a monster when he said all blood mages were multiple times, despite not having an issue with her using it and agreeing with her views on the matter. So that was handled poorly in my opinion. This, plus the fact that Hawke can be very much a blood mage as well. And there is no railroading -fortunately- into "Repent your sins!!!" for Hawke in that regard, and we know that it would not matter anyways, if all the fuss about Malcolm Hawke doing some rituals for the GWs with a sword at his neck is any indication. Also, remember that Hawke is disliked by either the Templars or the Mages, and their presence could complicate matters with the Inquisition's allies. I guess Hawke would be just one person of a whole bunch who could scare a mage off, at least.
Mage A: "Have you heard about that Inquisition?" Mage B: "That group formed from conclave survivors which wants to do something about that fat-ass rift and which makes the remaining Grand Cleric's heads explode?" Mage A: "Yeah that one. I've heard their leaders are a seeker and a bunch of templars from all over the south, including having second-in-command of 'ol Merrydeath Stannard as army general." Mage B: "Uh, oh..."
I am grateul for this that we can end this discussion about Varric a character almost everyone in DA community loves or atleast likes well unlike you of course. Umm, yeah. I'm not having the same issues with Varric as Hanako (my main beef is his claim about his neutralitiy on the mage-templars issue, which he quite actively disproves in both endings), but the character-we-are-supposed-to-like trope is very strong with him. DAI opens up the boxes badly, and Varric is in the "supposed to like" one (together with Cassandra, Cullen and a few lesser examples, I guess) while there are pretty clear examples we are not supposed to like, such as Sera or Vivienne.
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wright1978
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
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wright1978
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
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Post by wright1978 on Mar 4, 2021 7:38:07 GMT
I disliked pretty much everything about hawke in dai. How they acted, being packed off to Weisshaupt rather than returning to loved ones, to the final trespasser indignity of being forced to be varric’s servant back in Kirkwall.
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