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The world just opened up...l'm now hearing sounds that I haven't heard in quite some time!
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January 2017
energizerbunny211
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Mass Effect Andromeda, Anthem
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Post by Energizer Bunny 211 on Dec 3, 2022 16:30:25 GMT
I think you're looking at the wrong place. Go to your BIOS, press F2 to go to Advanced Mode, hit Settings > Miscellaneous > Trusted Computing, and enable Security Device Support. Go back to the Miscellaneous menu and enable Intel Platform Trust Technology (PTT). Save and exit. That's it. If you don't see these options, you might need to update your BIOS. Also keep in mind that this is the firmware TPM solution which is based on your CPU. That means if you want to use BitLocker to encrypt your drives, you need to keep a copy of your BitLocker Encryption key somewhere safe. Otherwise, you won't be able to access them if you change your CPU or in case of a CPU failure. If your OS is a Pro version and is linked to your Microsoft account, you can recover the key from your Microsoft account profile but this isn't 100% reliable. Just keep a copy of the key somewhere safe like on a USB thumbdrive if you want to use the BitLocker feature, and disable BitLocker altogether before you change your CPU. If you don't use BitLocker and aren't planning on using it, this isn't an issue for you. I was looking at #18 under the heading Internal I/O Connectors of the SPECIFICATIONS Tab. But I understand what you mean. In case you're wondering my CPU is a 10900KF......I have never updated my BIOS from the version the board was shipped with. And yes, my OS is Windows 10 64-bit 21H2.
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Post by bmwcrazy on Dec 3, 2022 17:43:50 GMT
I was looking at #18 under the heading Internal I/O Connectors of the SPECIFICATIONS Tab. But I understand what you mean. In case you're wondering my CPU is a 10900KF......I have never updated my BIOS from the version the board was shipped with. And yes, my OS is Windows 10 64-bit 21H2. Just go to the BIOS and check to see if you have those options. Given how recent your motherboard is, it should have them.
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Atemporal Vanguardian-Debugger
N6
At sunrise there is the sunset.
To find the secrets of the universe: Think in terms of energy, frequency & VIBRATION -Nikola Tesla
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Shattered Steel, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
Origin: NO. NEVER. AGAIN.
XBL Gamertag: No.
PSN: No
Posts: 5,220 Likes: 5,079
inherit
At sunrise there is the sunset.
2139
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5,079
Atemporal Vanguardian-Debugger
To find the secrets of the universe: Think in terms of energy, frequency & VIBRATION -Nikola Tesla
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November 2016
thelastvanguardian
Bottom
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Shattered Steel, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
NO. NEVER. AGAIN.
No.
No
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Post by Atemporal Vanguardian-Debugger on Dec 4, 2022 3:36:15 GMT
Also keep in mind that this is the firmware TPM solution which is based on your CPU. That means if you want to use BitLocker to encrypt your drives, you need to keep a copy of your BitLocker Encryption key somewhere safe. Otherwise, you won't be able to access them if you change your CPU or in case of a CPU failure.
If your OS is a Pro version and is linked to your Microsoft account, you can recover the key from your Microsoft account profile but this isn't 100% reliable. Just keep a copy of the key somewhere safe like on a USB thumbdrive if you want to use the BitLocker feature, and disable BitLocker altogether before you change your CPU. If you don't use BitLocker and aren't planning on using it, this isn't an issue for you. I was looking at #18 under the heading Internal I/O Connectors of the SPECIFICATIONS Tab. But I understand what you mean. In case you're wondering my CPU is a 10900KF......I have never updated my BIOS from the version the board was shipped with. And yes, my OS is Windows 10 64-bit 21H2. Ok. After some sleep I got to the research. First your CPU supports TPM 2.0. Second your motherboard supports TPM 2.0... However as bmwcrazy said it needs to be turned on if your running a BIOS before version F21c. If your running that BIOS version or one after it; then TPM 2.0 should already be on. In other words you don't need the TPM chip... However I think you are being quite smart going the chip route. Say hardware failure of the motherboard where your key would be. That is a nightmare scenario -especially if you didn't save your bitlocker key -or misplaced it. TPM 2.0 chip is a Godsend then.
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Post by bmwcrazy on Dec 4, 2022 8:10:56 GMT
However I think you are being quite smart going the chip route. Say hardware failure of the motherboard where your key would be. That is a nightmare scenario -especially if you didn't save your bitlocker key -or misplaced it. TPM 2.0 chip is a Godsend then. Discrete TPM can fail as well. So either way, you need to save and back up your recovery key.
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Atemporal Vanguardian-Debugger
N6
At sunrise there is the sunset.
To find the secrets of the universe: Think in terms of energy, frequency & VIBRATION -Nikola Tesla
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Shattered Steel, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
Origin: NO. NEVER. AGAIN.
XBL Gamertag: No.
PSN: No
Posts: 5,220 Likes: 5,079
inherit
At sunrise there is the sunset.
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Atemporal Vanguardian-Debugger
To find the secrets of the universe: Think in terms of energy, frequency & VIBRATION -Nikola Tesla
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thelastvanguardian
Bottom
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Shattered Steel, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
NO. NEVER. AGAIN.
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Post by Atemporal Vanguardian-Debugger on Dec 4, 2022 9:13:52 GMT
However I think you are being quite smart going the chip route. Say hardware failure of the motherboard where your key would be. That is a nightmare scenario -especially if you didn't save your bitlocker key -or misplaced it. TPM 2.0 chip is a Godsend then. Discrete TPM can fail as well. So either way, you need to save and back up your recovery key. Yes storing the key is good but there are cases where it is lost no matter what is done. Years ago 5 year old kid threw my nearly empty wallet and my last XP Key cut out into the garbage disposal to hear sound... bye XP and wallet. They can find anything, anywhere, anytime and don't be fooled about height sometimes they are the Michael Jordan of the impossible. Now sure anything can fail but its a lot easier to get a TPM 2.0 chip repaired versus a whole motherboard if the issue arises. Though personally what I would rather do is have an unencrypted offline cold storage backup and restore all data from that and then encypt on the new system if necessary.
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Post by bmwcrazy on Dec 4, 2022 9:40:11 GMT
Now sure anything can fail but its a lot easier to get a TPM 2.0 chip repaired versus a whole motherboard if the issue arises. I don't think the reparability matters. Because if you replace the TPM, you need the recovery key to access your encrypted drive. If your motherboard dies and you move your discrete TPM to a new motherboard, you still need the recovery key regardless.
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Atemporal Vanguardian-Debugger
N6
At sunrise there is the sunset.
To find the secrets of the universe: Think in terms of energy, frequency & VIBRATION -Nikola Tesla
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Shattered Steel, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
Origin: NO. NEVER. AGAIN.
XBL Gamertag: No.
PSN: No
Posts: 5,220 Likes: 5,079
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At sunrise there is the sunset.
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5,079
Atemporal Vanguardian-Debugger
To find the secrets of the universe: Think in terms of energy, frequency & VIBRATION -Nikola Tesla
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thelastvanguardian
Bottom
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Shattered Steel, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
NO. NEVER. AGAIN.
No.
No
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Post by Atemporal Vanguardian-Debugger on Dec 4, 2022 16:55:15 GMT
Now sure anything can fail but its a lot easier to get a TPM 2.0 chip repaired versus a whole motherboard if the issue arises. I don't think the reparability matters. Because if you replace the TPM, you need the recovery key to access your encrypted drive. If your motherboard dies and you move your discrete TPM to a new motherboard, you still need the recovery key regardless. Understandable. Still in hindsight it puts such quirkiness into builds that don't even need it and in some cases may be considered gimmicky. Furthermore the vileness of the dark tech field will find a way to over come the TPM 2.0 eventually. I have thoughts on it but will not speculate you don't know who could be viewing this page on the darkweb...
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The world just opened up...l'm now hearing sounds that I haven't heard in quite some time!
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Jan 15, 2017 18:43:23 GMT
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energizerbunny211
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Mass Effect Andromeda, Anthem
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Post by Energizer Bunny 211 on Dec 4, 2022 18:49:14 GMT
I don't think the reparability matters. Because if you replace the TPM, you need the recovery key to access your encrypted drive. If your motherboard dies and you move your discrete TPM to a new motherboard, you still need the recovery key regardless. Understandable. Still in hindsight it puts such quirkiness into builds that don't even need it and in some cases may be considered gimmicky. Furthermore the vileness of the dark tech field will find a way to over come the TPM 2.0 eventually. I have thoughts on it but will not speculate you don't know who could be viewing this page on the darkweb... I think what they should have installed on all cases that can connect to the header on any motherboard, instead is a fingerprint reader. I have one on my HP Elitebook 8570W from 2012, and it works great. The laptop will power up, but it won't start Windows unless I rub my finger. And if I fail 3x with the wrong finger, the laptop shuts off, keeping the OS intact. Why they can't put that same biometric tech onto PC cases and have it connected to a header on the motherboard is beyond me.
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Post by bmwcrazy on Dec 4, 2022 19:22:30 GMT
I think what they should have installed on all cases that can connect to the header on any motherboard, instead is a fingerprint reader. I have one on my HP Elitebook 8570W from 2012, and it works great. The laptop will power up, but it won't start Windows unless I rub my finger. And if I fail 3x with the wrong finger, the laptop shuts off, keeping the OS intact. Why they can't put that same biometric tech onto PC cases and have it connected to a header on the motherboard is beyond me. Yeah, I know. For laptops we have Windows Hello, which now also supports TPM. It lets you unlock your device through fingerprint, facial recognition, or iris recognition. I already use facial recognition to unlock my laptop and my phone. I wish I could do it with my desktops as well.
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Energizer Bunny 211
The world just opened up...l'm now hearing sounds that I haven't heard in quite some time!
6,480
Jan 15, 2017 18:43:23 GMT
January 2017
energizerbunny211
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Mass Effect Andromeda, Anthem
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Post by Energizer Bunny 211 on Dec 9, 2022 18:30:30 GMT
I cant see Jedi Survivor slogging with a 2080 Super FTW3 Ultra esoecially if a 2070 is Recommended....But Ive been curious: Would the socket on my Z490 Aorus Master motherboard even fit a 30 or 40 series gpu if I ever wanted to upgrade?
OR am I stuck with the 20 series until a new build is needed?
Because I really like all my parts, Im just curious about incremental upgrades for better performance in newer TBD games like Dragon Age Dread Wolf, Jedi Survivor etc
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Atemporal Vanguardian-Debugger
N6
At sunrise there is the sunset.
To find the secrets of the universe: Think in terms of energy, frequency & VIBRATION -Nikola Tesla
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Shattered Steel, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
Origin: NO. NEVER. AGAIN.
XBL Gamertag: No.
PSN: No
Posts: 5,220 Likes: 5,079
inherit
At sunrise there is the sunset.
2139
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Atemporal Vanguardian-Debugger
To find the secrets of the universe: Think in terms of energy, frequency & VIBRATION -Nikola Tesla
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thelastvanguardian
Bottom
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Shattered Steel, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
NO. NEVER. AGAIN.
No.
No
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Post by Atemporal Vanguardian-Debugger on Dec 9, 2022 23:33:57 GMT
I cant see Jedi Survivor slogging with a 2080 Super FTW3 Ultra esoecially if a 2070 is Recommended....But Ive been curious: Would the socket on my Z490 Aorus Master motherboard even fit a 30 or 40 series gpu if I ever wanted to upgrade? OR am I stuck with the 20 series until a new build is needed? Because I really like all my parts, Im just curious about incremental upgrades for better performance in newer TBD games like Dragon Age Dread Wolf, Jedi Survivor etc I have not looked at anything SW since that crap of a movie: SWFA -which I couldn't even really watch. Still if its slogging with a 2000 series it probably means there is Ray Tracing involved. What say you bmwcrazy? Is this game RT heavy and that explains what EB211 is wondering?
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Atemporal Vanguardian-Debugger
N6
At sunrise there is the sunset.
To find the secrets of the universe: Think in terms of energy, frequency & VIBRATION -Nikola Tesla
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Shattered Steel, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
Origin: NO. NEVER. AGAIN.
XBL Gamertag: No.
PSN: No
Posts: 5,220 Likes: 5,079
inherit
At sunrise there is the sunset.
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Atemporal Vanguardian-Debugger
To find the secrets of the universe: Think in terms of energy, frequency & VIBRATION -Nikola Tesla
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November 2016
thelastvanguardian
Bottom
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Shattered Steel, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
NO. NEVER. AGAIN.
No.
No
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Post by Atemporal Vanguardian-Debugger on Dec 9, 2022 23:37:42 GMT
I cant see Jedi Survivor slogging with a 2080 Super FTW3 Ultra esoecially if a 2070 is Recommended....But Ive been curious: Would the socket on my Z490 Aorus Master motherboard even fit a 30 or 40 series gpu if I ever wanted to upgrade? OR am I stuck with the 20 series until a new build is needed? Because I really like all my parts, Im just curious about incremental upgrades for better performance in newer TBD games like Dragon Age Dread Wolf, Jedi Survivor etc As to your 4090 question: All motherboards PCI slots can hold it -though reinforced would definitely be preferable. Its all about the case not the card so just make sure case is big enough. Especially if the only support is the bracket, brace and the slot and its hanging by thread. I would recommend that if you go with the 4090 to just lay the case down like this: If your case is not big enough though that may mean one of three things if you go for the 4090: 1. Cut out a portion of the case so the card will fit. 2. Use a M.2 to PCI -Express card and put the GPU literally outside the system. 3. Get a new case.
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Post by rewindbutton on Dec 14, 2022 15:02:34 GMT
1. Cut out a portion of the case card, so it will fit. Fixed it for you!
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Post by Deleted on Dec 14, 2022 16:32:04 GMT
TPM is security theater, CMV. You won't, because it is. ... Anyways, unless we are talking about work computers, why does a gaming PC need drive encryption? People need a better understanding of how the internet works, myself included. Most people's shitty basic ISP-provided router protects them from most vectors OOTB. By default, WAN-facing ports are closed unless you open them. People aren't hacking into your home LAN without doing a lot of work... and at that point, any of us would have become suspicious of "something weird" going on. So, again, security theater because yes for corporate environments that are targets for attacks, this matters. For the average consumer, more meaningless shit to unnecessarily worry yourself about and potentially create new and stupider headaches for yourself in the process. The love/hate with technology... The battle of evermore. ETA - www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2021/08/defeating-microsofts-trusted-platform-module.htmlRelevant quote from a commenter - "The funny thing is, that without the TPM, the laptop would have been secure. Another brilliant example of the fact that security is not composable." Apparently, I am far from the first person to call this security theater.
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Atemporal Vanguardian-Debugger
N6
At sunrise there is the sunset.
To find the secrets of the universe: Think in terms of energy, frequency & VIBRATION -Nikola Tesla
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Shattered Steel, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
Origin: NO. NEVER. AGAIN.
XBL Gamertag: No.
PSN: No
Posts: 5,220 Likes: 5,079
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At sunrise there is the sunset.
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Atemporal Vanguardian-Debugger
To find the secrets of the universe: Think in terms of energy, frequency & VIBRATION -Nikola Tesla
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thelastvanguardian
Bottom
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Shattered Steel, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
NO. NEVER. AGAIN.
No.
No
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Post by Atemporal Vanguardian-Debugger on Dec 14, 2022 16:59:59 GMT
1. Cut out a portion of the case card, so it will fit. Fixed it for you! Broke it you mean. You do that then the card don't work. Here these are what I mean: This is the EXACT thing I mean -there is no closing that case period: Got some gaff tape or duck tape? Want it to be macgyvered? Here you go: Trying to be professionally ghetto... Maybe it works: Or how about a professional one: Now after the time it took to write this I realized your sarcasism... I need to hear voices to really tell when people are in my zone. Takes me too long when reading. We need a voice enabler here... Nope I publishing this -so here!
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Post by Deleted on Dec 14, 2022 18:55:45 GMT
^^^ The above post was worth the visit! I love the lack of awareness, followed at the end by complete self-awareness and an empty bucket of fucks to give The spoilered photos... holy moly. The last one has great air-cooling potential, but when it does get hot may sound like a helicopter. I would definitely want to swap out the stock fans for something quieter there. Then, walk with it on a long extension cord and jump with it into a full tub of water so we can die together. I think dremel tool is the way to go, rewindbutton was correct
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Post by rewindbutton on Dec 15, 2022 12:03:55 GMT
Takes me too long when reading. Happens to the best of us! Yes, that was my attempt at humour. Those pictures were pretty cool though, thanks!
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Post by rewindbutton on Dec 15, 2022 12:13:02 GMT
empty bucket of fucks to give [checks the bucket] Yup, it sure is empty. I think dremel tool is the way to go TBH, once I saw how short the PCB on a 4090 is, I thought it might be possible to modify the cooler to make it shorter. But, as always, caution is adviced.
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Post by rewindbutton on Dec 15, 2022 12:18:46 GMT
I would argue that TPM is meant to add control, not security.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 15, 2022 15:46:48 GMT
I would argue that TPM is meant to add control, not security. But, who is in control, if the bear is shitting in the woods and you're not there to see it? arstechnica.com/gadgets/2021/08/how-to-go-from-stolen-pc-to-network-intrusion-in-30-minutes/amp/It is theater, because "control" doesn't matter if you don't have it, and is actually a lie wrapped in marketing speak because growth is necessary and line must go up. There are benefits, and downsides. It is theater to me because it was hackable and will remain hackable, even if it requires a "dirty maid" to do it.
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✜ The Bunny Chaser
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Energizer Bunny 211
The world just opened up...l'm now hearing sounds that I haven't heard in quite some time!
6,480
Jan 15, 2017 18:43:23 GMT
January 2017
energizerbunny211
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Mass Effect Andromeda, Anthem
Rumbler1138
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Post by Energizer Bunny 211 on Dec 16, 2022 13:34:03 GMT
"Dirty Maid"
*imagines a beautiful woman in a skanty,super-revealing Maid costume*
I wonder what kind of sevices she provides.....
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Post by rewindbutton on Dec 16, 2022 13:44:51 GMT
Well, TPM is recommended by the NSA, so what could go wrong? It is indeed. And by control, I mean keeping tabs on individuals. Security has always meant something rather different than recommended settings.
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Post by bmwcrazy on Dec 17, 2022 0:45:47 GMT
A small update. I wanted to retire the EK Vardar S 120ER fans on my 360mm EK AIO for a long time. They were fast but I still believed that the acoustics could be improved. So I decided to replace them with the lengendary 120mm Noctua NF-A12x25 PWM fans. Took out the old fans. I also removed one of the stickers out of curiosity. Without RGB lighting means easy installation. The PC is now so much quieter. I can barely hear the CPU fans ramp up. It's definitely worth spending $100 on them.
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Atemporal Vanguardian-Debugger
N6
At sunrise there is the sunset.
To find the secrets of the universe: Think in terms of energy, frequency & VIBRATION -Nikola Tesla
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Shattered Steel, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
Origin: NO. NEVER. AGAIN.
XBL Gamertag: No.
PSN: No
Posts: 5,220 Likes: 5,079
inherit
At sunrise there is the sunset.
2139
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5,079
Atemporal Vanguardian-Debugger
To find the secrets of the universe: Think in terms of energy, frequency & VIBRATION -Nikola Tesla
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thelastvanguardian
Bottom
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Shattered Steel, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
NO. NEVER. AGAIN.
No.
No
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Post by Atemporal Vanguardian-Debugger on Dec 17, 2022 18:58:30 GMT
A small update. I wanted to retire the EK Vardar S 120ER fans on my 360mm EK AIO for a long time. They were fast but I still believed that the acoustics could be improved. So I decided replaced them with the lengendary 120mm Noctua NF-A12x25 PWM fans. Took out the old fans. I also removed one of the stickers out of curiosity. Without RGB lighting means easy installation. The PC is now so much quieter. I can barely hear the CPU fans ramp up. It's definitely worth spending $100 on them. First off that isn't small -that is an overhaul. Second sorry for reducing picture size. Browser is having a fit with anything larger than the browsers' in screen view. I like magnifiers but its ridiculous magnification. Again on my end not on yours -just adjusted to be able to see. That said RGB is over rated glad to see you come up from the deep. Still you can't loose with Noctua or even the IceGales' -though the latter does give a bit of over fan head room. I digress... I like the way that case is laying on the table... I see the fans pointing down. Is it possible to turn those fans to use on the front grill plate instead of the side? If so then if I combine the Thor V2 side panel with that case... maybe I wouldn't need to lug this 50+Lb case around. Can you give info on this?
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Atemporal Vanguardian-Debugger
N6
At sunrise there is the sunset.
To find the secrets of the universe: Think in terms of energy, frequency & VIBRATION -Nikola Tesla
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Shattered Steel, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
Origin: NO. NEVER. AGAIN.
XBL Gamertag: No.
PSN: No
Posts: 5,220 Likes: 5,079
inherit
At sunrise there is the sunset.
2139
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5,079
Atemporal Vanguardian-Debugger
To find the secrets of the universe: Think in terms of energy, frequency & VIBRATION -Nikola Tesla
5,220
November 2016
thelastvanguardian
Bottom
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Shattered Steel, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
NO. NEVER. AGAIN.
No.
No
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Post by Atemporal Vanguardian-Debugger on Dec 17, 2022 19:05:52 GMT
rewindbutton bmwcrazy @gaben7 Energizer Bunny 211 What do you guys think of Black and Decker vs Dewalt vs Craftsmans vs RYOBI for the drill screwdriver that I need for building the desk? I know its a real hard ware question and I am no craftsman -no pun intended but I have never really worked with hand tools I always hire for that. Always been so busy in my computer repairs and building.
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