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Post by KaiserShep on Mar 5, 2021 20:49:55 GMT
But that isn’t really true in the case of Virmire. It was entirely a joint effort between Shepard and the STG. It doesn’t really matter if Shepard’s ship was used to do it, because the responsibility is shared equally among all parties involved. The thing that doesn’t make any sense is that the Council doesn’t seem to really have a particular stake in either the planet or the facility that was destroyed, and unlike Saren’s escapades, the only casualties seem to be a few indoctrinated salarians and krogan shock troops. What annoys me is that Kirrahe’s survival means nothing and doesn’t affect their disposition at all. This kind of goes to the really annoying way BioWare wrote all of the politician characters in the game. They’re all obscenely obnoxious and short-sighted. While that sounds like something that should be expected on its face, the level of stupidity on the part of the Council begs the question as to how galactic society didn’t collapse so much sooner. I really hope BioWare never writes characters like this again, or at least, let me shoot them if they do. Shepard also is the only one that can survive so they have to write it to only focus on the single character that survives 100% of the outcomes. Also the Council being against you is needed for the story. If they acted even half as rational as any real person would the entire story wouldn't exist. I think that really goes to why the story starts to age a bit badly. These sorts of things become more and more apparent.
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Post by wright1978 on Mar 5, 2021 21:30:47 GMT
But that isn’t really true in the case of Virmire. It was entirely a joint effort between Shepard and the STG. It doesn’t really matter if Shepard’s ship was used to do it, because the responsibility is shared equally among all parties involved. The thing that doesn’t make any sense is that the Council doesn’t seem to really have a particular stake in either the planet or the facility that was destroyed, and unlike Saren’s escapades, the only casualties seem to be a few indoctrinated salarians and krogan shock troops. What annoys me is that Kirrahe’s survival means nothing and doesn’t affect their disposition at all. This kind of goes to the really annoying way BioWare wrote all of the politician characters in the game. They’re all obscenely obnoxious and short-sighted. While that sounds like something that should be expected on its face, the level of stupidity on the part of the Council begs the question as to how galactic society didn’t collapse so much sooner. I really hope BioWare never writes characters like this again, or at least, let me shoot them if they do. Shepard also is the only one that can survive so they have to write it to only focus on the single character that survives 100% of the outcomes. Also the Council being against you is needed for the story. If they acted even half as rational as any real person would the entire story wouldn't exist. I honestly thought with Andromeda they were going to use it to set up the notion that the council actually were doing something secretly in the background but instead we got a lot of nonsense.
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Post by gothpunkboy89 on Mar 5, 2021 23:12:10 GMT
Shepard also is the only one that can survive so they have to write it to only focus on the single character that survives 100% of the outcomes. Also the Council being against you is needed for the story. If they acted even half as rational as any real person would the entire story wouldn't exist. I think that really goes to why the story starts to age a bit badly. These sorts of things become more and more apparent. The story was already aged badly on release. It is things like this that make me really question why people will make claims like the writing went down hill in subsequent games when it has remained consistent across the whole series.
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Croatsky
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Amateur Reporter
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by Croatsky on Mar 6, 2021 9:44:27 GMT
But that isn’t really true in the case of Virmire. It was entirely a joint effort between Shepard and the STG. It doesn’t really matter if Shepard’s ship was used to do it, because the responsibility is shared equally among all parties involved. The thing that doesn’t make any sense is that the Council doesn’t seem to really have a particular stake in either the planet or the facility that was destroyed, and unlike Saren’s escapades, the only casualties seem to be a few indoctrinated salarians and krogan shock troops. What annoys me is that Kirrahe’s survival means nothing and doesn’t affect their disposition at all. This kind of goes to the really annoying way BioWare wrote all of the politician characters in the game. They’re all obscenely obnoxious and short-sighted. While that sounds like something that should be expected on its face, the level of stupidity on the part of the Council begs the question as to how galactic society didn’t collapse so much sooner. I really hope BioWare never writes characters like this again, or at least, let me shoot them if they do. MET has serious issues at being very negative about civilian government and politics, while at same time makes military look all great and perfect.
Because we all know how military regimes are so great. /s
They seem to have address that a little in MEA, at least with how uncomfortable idea is for military rule to take over. It's not much as story and worldbuilding is focused on other things, but it s a lot more than what MET ever did, where it took every opportunity to assault civil governance. However in MEA Initiation, which I just finished listing as audiobook, they are still committed at civil governance and politicians are very one-dimensional bad. At least they made military brass just as bad, which I guess both sides bad? Then again Alec Ryder was POV of that chapter, so it's likely just his bias against both parties that ruined his career.
BioWare has improved with worldbuilding since, but it will still remain a very problematic element with MET and MELE.
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Post by alanc9 on Mar 6, 2021 9:52:15 GMT
That's a fairly common SF trope, isn't it?
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by Croatsky on Mar 6, 2021 10:21:15 GMT
That's a fairly common SF trope, isn't it? Which makes it a very common problem that needs to be addressed.
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Post by ahglock on Mar 6, 2021 16:24:21 GMT
That's a fairly common SF trope, isn't it? Which makes it a very common problem that needs to be addressed. Well civilian governments are pretty shitty universally. a military one would also be shitty.
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Post by alanc9 on Mar 6, 2021 17:01:44 GMT
There's no real mystery as to why writers do that. It's easy to write a plot where someone is being hamstrung by his superiors. Making the hamstringer a civilian-of-the-week gets around the issue of not being able to trust the show's chain of command in later episodes. (Although TNG-era Trek shows that this isn't really a problem.)
The trick is to do it without making the civilians idiots. In Star Trek TOS, Commissioner Ferris is right that rescuing a stranded shuttlecraft crew must not interfere with the Enterprise's high-priority mission, and Commissioner Baris is right about a Klingon plot against the grain supply for Sherman's Planet.
The MET did not succeed at that.
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Post by ahglock on Mar 6, 2021 17:36:58 GMT
There's no real mystery as to why writers do that. It's easy to write a plot where someone is being hamstrung by his superiors. Making the hamstringer a civilian-of-the-week gets around the issue of not being able to trust the show's chain of command in later episodes. (Although TNG-era Trek shows that this isn't really a problem.) The trick is to do it without making the civilians idiots. In Star Trek TOS, Commissioner Ferris is right that rescuing a stranded shuttlecraft crew must not interfere with the Enterprise's high-priority mission, and Commissioner Baris is right about a Klingon plot against the grain supply for Sherman's Planet. The MET did not succeed at that. I wouldn't want to make all civilians idiots, all politicians though no problem with that.
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Post by sentinel87 on Mar 6, 2021 17:55:11 GMT
I think you're reading too much into civil vs. military authority being an overarching opinion or worldview on Bioware's part. To me it's a standard trope that the player character is a Cassandra in many TV shows/films/games. It's an easy way to create conflict. With Shepard being in the military, and thus subordinate to civil control, the people who don't believe him/her are civilians like the Council members and those who do recognize the danger are military like Anderson. I also can't say that civil authority is ever pushed aside by the military in the series. Shepard spends much of ME3 trying to get the Council to go along with his/her plans for the crucible, thus recognizing that they are the legitimate authority that has to be reasoned with.
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Cyberstrike
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Post by Cyberstrike on Mar 8, 2021 23:44:14 GMT
I think you're reading too much into civil vs. military authority being an overarching opinion or worldview on Bioware's part. To me it's a standard trope that the player character is a Cassandra in many TV shows/films/games. It's an easy way to create conflict. With Shepard being in the military, and thus subordinate to civil control, the people who don't believe him/her are civilians like the Council members and those who do recognize the danger are military like Anderson. I also can't say that civil authority is ever pushed aside by the military in the series. Shepard spends much of ME3 trying to get the Council to go along with his/her plans for the crucible, thus recognizing that they are the legitimate authority that has to be reasoned with.
Sci-Fi and fantasy can be used to express the storyteller's thoughts and beliefs on current politics and in some cases take it to extremes and say "This is wrong, please don't go that way." or "This is the correct way, please go that way." and Mass Effect and Dragon Age are no different than Star Trek and Game of Thrones in that regard. The problem is that this media is never made in vacuum and enough of this kind of media can be potentially dangerous if it builds up after a while especially if/when it's not criticized, challenged, deconstructed, and parodied/satirized or then certain people start thinking an authoritarian military dictatorships is the only way to solve all a country's problems.
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Post by Sanunes on Mar 9, 2021 7:44:05 GMT
I think that really goes to why the story starts to age a bit badly. These sorts of things become more and more apparent. The story was already aged badly on release. It is things like this that make me really question why people will make claims like the writing went down hill in subsequent games when it has remained consistent across the whole series. Because it fits the narrative they want to tell. Its the same thing when I see people complain about the length of the games and my response is I can beat Mass Effect 1 in about five hours. I get called a liar for that because it doesn't fit their story about BioWare being bad and how EA ruined them.
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Post by gothpunkboy89 on Mar 9, 2021 12:35:18 GMT
The story was already aged badly on release. It is things like this that make me really question why people will make claims like the writing went down hill in subsequent games when it has remained consistent across the whole series. Because it fits the narrative they want to tell. Its the same thing when I see people complain about the length of the games and my response is I can beat Mass Effect 1 in about five hours. I get called a liar for that because it doesn't fit their story about BioWare being bad and how EA ruined them. I agree completely.
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Post by dmc1001 on Apr 5, 2021 20:04:42 GMT
Apparently all the data for it was either corrupted or lost, so it’s not included unfortunately. Maybe its for the best. The Citadel DLC is so much better than Pinnacle Station. Like i said i only miss the deliveries options in Shepards Apartment and that´s it. They were different, that's all. I just loved smacking down that arrogant turian asshole. Winning his apartment was pretty awesome, just because the turian couldn't keep it. Plus, I saved an innocent man.
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Post by helios969 on Apr 6, 2021 7:55:58 GMT
There's no real mystery as to why writers do that. It's easy to write a plot where someone is being hamstrung by his superiors. Making the hamstringer a civilian-of-the-week gets around the issue of not being able to trust the show's chain of command in later episodes. (Although TNG-era Trek shows that this isn't really a problem.) The trick is to do it without making the civilians idiots. In Star Trek TOS, Commissioner Ferris is right that rescuing a stranded shuttlecraft crew must not interfere with the Enterprise's high-priority mission, and Commissioner Baris is right about a Klingon plot against the grain supply for Sherman's Planet. The MET did not succeed at that. I wouldn't want to make all civilians idiots, all politicians though no problem with that. Well we do want realism so I would say the majority of civilians and "all" politicians...given it's "we the people" that keep voting the same selfish idiots into office.
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Biotic Booty
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Post by dmc1001 on Apr 6, 2021 17:18:55 GMT
I wouldn't want to make all civilians idiots, all politicians though no problem with that. Well we do want realism so I would say the majority of civilians and "all" politicians...given it's "we the people" that keep voting the same selfish idiots into office. True, but you'd have to pay attention to know how to vote for. We don't exactly know how the Council is set up. We also don't know what positive things they might have done overall in Council Space. We know humans went to the Attican Traverse but I think the Systems Alliance was the problem, at least based on the colonists from Horizon. I don't think they said anything about the Council. We do have a few anti-alien groups, including Cerberus, so it's hard to gauge. On the flip side, Mindoir is also in the Attican Traverse but I think that was just about expanding human space rather than fleeing from it. The Council doesn't seem to factor in to those types of colonies.
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We destroy them or they destroy us.
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Post by bshep on Apr 6, 2021 20:47:58 GMT
Maybe its for the best. The Citadel DLC is so much better than Pinnacle Station. Like i said i only miss the deliveries options in Shepards Apartment and that´s it. They were different, that's all. I just loved smacking down that arrogant turian asshole. Winning his apartment was pretty awesome, just because the turian couldn't keep it. Plus, I saved an innocent man. True. Besides i loved that gas nebula visual inside the station. Oh well i still have the original trilogy in case i want to check it out someday again.
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Post by RedCaesar97 on Apr 6, 2021 21:08:11 GMT
I just loved smacking down that arrogant turian asshole. Winning his apartment was pretty awesome, just because the turian couldn't keep it. Plus, I saved an innocent man. Shepard only proved that a human could place in top spot. Nothing you did proved that Bryant did not cheat. I think Bryant cheated to get his Hunt Volcanic score.
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Go Team!
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Post by sjsharp2010 on Apr 10, 2021 9:45:21 GMT
They were different, that's all. I just loved smacking down that arrogant turian asshole. Winning his apartment was pretty awesome, just because the turian couldn't keep it. Plus, I saved an innocent man. True. Besides i loved that gas nebula visual inside the station. Oh well i still have the original trilogy in case i want to check it out someday again. Yeah that's why I'm thinking of keeping the originals in case I want to play Pinnacle again.
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Post by dmc1001 on Apr 10, 2021 17:46:53 GMT
I just loved smacking down that arrogant turian asshole. Winning his apartment was pretty awesome, just because the turian couldn't keep it. Plus, I saved an innocent man. Shepard only proved that a human could place in top spot. Nothing you did proved that Bryant did not cheat. I think Bryant cheated to get his Hunt Volcanic score. I guess so. Still, hated that turian.
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