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Post by SirSourpuss on Feb 18, 2021 19:24:05 GMT
Well, that can't be good.
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Post by KaiserShep on Feb 18, 2021 19:47:02 GMT
I know that the looter shooter Warframe keeps almost an entire studio (Digital Extremes, about 300 employees) busy, and even then players occasionally complain about content drought and leave temporarily until the next big update is released. 30 people on a live service looter shooter is nothing, the tripled number as suggested by BioWare in Mr. Schreier's article would just be the skeleton crew. There's a great interview with DE's Rebecca Ford by noclip out there, in which she states that within this genre, you can never stop developing new content, or people will get bored and leave (at about 26:44). You can't take a break from that to fix bugs (even though lots of players may demand this), you always must keep going or you will lose your player base. That should be kept in mind if EA decides to keep Anthem alive. Yeah, this was an issue Bungie dealt with over and over again, and they have a hell of a lot more people working on Destiny 2 than what BioWare committed to Anthem. During Curse of Osiris and Warmind, the game suffered some of the biggest player count drops, and it had a heck of a lot more content than Anthem did, even at the base game. This is why I fundamentally disapproved of BioWare bothering to get into this genre, because of how much demanding it is and that it’ll just endlessly take manpower away from the singleplayer stuff I’d think they’d be better off sticking to.
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Hrungr
Twitter Guru
ღ N-Special
More coffee...? More coffee.
Staff Mini-Profile Theme: Hrungr
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Anthem
Origin: Hrungr
Prime Posts: 18,258
Prime Likes: 65,767
Posts: 28,933 Likes: 101,654
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More coffee...? More coffee.
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August 2016
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Post by Hrungr on Feb 18, 2021 20:19:03 GMT
Well, that can't be good. Texas got hit hard by that winter storm, so they've been dealing with problems with power, water, etc..
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Post by SirSourpuss on Feb 18, 2021 22:59:24 GMT
Texas got hit hard by that winter storm, so they've been dealing with problems with power, water, etc.. True. Also, looking for a job, because you're on your last dime, while in a lockdown from a virus and in the worst snowstorm of the last 100 years or so, is also quite bad. It seems to imply that Bioware Austin is getting some major changes and not on the positive side. To me, at least.
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Post by river82 on Feb 19, 2021 1:40:11 GMT
I know that the looter shooter Warframe keeps almost an entire studio (Digital Extremes, about 300 employees) busy, and even then players occasionally complain about content drought and leave temporarily until the next big update is released. 30 people on a live service looter shooter is nothing, the tripled number as suggested by BioWare in Mr. Schreier's article would just be the skeleton crew. There's a great interview with DE's Rebecca Ford by noclip out there, in which she states that within this genre, you can never stop developing new content, or people will get bored and leave (at about 26:44). You can't take a break from that to fix bugs (even though lots of players may demand this), you always must keep going or you will lose your player base. That should be kept in mind if EA decides to keep Anthem alive. Yeah, this was an issue Bungie dealt with over and over again, and they have a hell of a lot more people working on Destiny 2 than what BioWare committed to Anthem. During Curse of Osiris and Warmind, the game suffered some of the biggest player count drops, and it had a heck of a lot more content than Anthem did, even at the base game. This is why I fundamentally disapproved of BioWare bothering to get into this genre, because of how much demanding it is and that it’ll just endlessly take manpower away from the singleplayer stuff I’d think they’d be better off sticking to. It's worse for Bungie because Destiny is described, on Steam for example, as an action "MMO" and there are certain things people expect when you throw the words buy-to-play MMO out there. One thing is a certain amount of content and Bungie falls really short of the mark.
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Finished Dissertation long ago lol. Now happily employed :D
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Post by biggydx on Feb 19, 2021 2:49:31 GMT
Yeah, this was an issue Bungie dealt with over and over again, and they have a hell of a lot more people working on Destiny 2 than what BioWare committed to Anthem. During Curse of Osiris and Warmind, the game suffered some of the biggest player count drops, and it had a heck of a lot more content than Anthem did, even at the base game. This is why I fundamentally disapproved of BioWare bothering to get into this genre, because of how much demanding it is and that it’ll just endlessly take manpower away from the singleplayer stuff I’d think they’d be better off sticking to. It's worse for Bungie because Destiny is described, on Steam for example, as an action "MMO" and there are certain things people expect when you throw the words buy-to-play MMO out there. One thing is a certain amount of content and Bungie falls really short of the mark. With recent news of Bungie doing an expansion of their main HQ in Seattle, Washington, I think they're seeking to make Destiny the next "WoW" game. Luke Smith, Creative Director for the franchise, was a former WoW player, so it looks as though its what he has in mind for the game going forward. It would make sense for why the game needs to be staffed with as many people as it does.
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Post by alanc9 on Feb 20, 2021 1:33:31 GMT
Texas got hit hard by that winter storm, so they've been dealing with problems with power, water, etc.. True. Also, looking for a job, because you're on your last dime, while in a lockdown from a virus and in the worst snowstorm of the last 100 years or so, is also quite bad. It seems to imply that Bioware Austin is getting some major changes and not on the positive side. To me, at least. Yeah, but everything implies that to you.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Feb 20, 2021 1:36:33 GMT
Yeah, but everything implies that to you. Maybe. But it is a possibility.
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Post by Andrew Waples on Feb 20, 2021 1:56:04 GMT
Yeah, but everything implies that to you. Maybe. But it is a possibility. If anything I would think silence would be a good thing. There would be no reason to keep it a secret if it got caned. *looks at Viceseral Star Wars game*
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, SWTOR
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Post by SirSourpuss on Feb 20, 2021 2:07:35 GMT
If anything I would think silence would be a good thing. There would be no reason to keep it a secret if it got caned. *looks at Viceseral Star Wars game* Depends. If EA would consider now a good time to go ahead with announcing it. There was the whole #IBelieveInAthem thing when the news about the evaluation made rounds.
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Post by Andrew Waples on Feb 20, 2021 2:57:10 GMT
If anything I would think silence would be a good thing. There would be no reason to keep it a secret if it got caned. *looks at Viceseral Star Wars game* Depends. If EA would consider now a good time to go ahead with announcing it. There was the whole #IBelieveInAthem thing when the news about the evaluation made rounds. Why are you so pessimistic? Rhetorical question, but are you even fan of these games? I mean, being on a fan forum and all.
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Sanunes
N6
    
Just a flip of the coin.
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Prime Posts: 4392
Prime Likes: 882
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Just a flip of the coin.
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by Sanunes on Feb 20, 2021 7:09:42 GMT
If anything I would think silence would be a good thing. There would be no reason to keep it a secret if it got caned. *looks at Viceseral Star Wars game* Depends. If EA would consider now a good time to go ahead with announcing it. There was the whole #IBelieveInAthem thing when the news about the evaluation made rounds. Even if EA didn't announce the cancelation it would have been somehow released one way or another to the public. Even when BioWare stopped working on Shadow Realms it had a press release and it was in early to mid stage development. Besides I doubt the ending of future support for Anthem would make any real difference if anything telling people if it has been cancelled could be seen as a positive for they aren't misleading players.
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, SWTOR
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Post by SirSourpuss on Feb 20, 2021 9:44:28 GMT
Why are you so pessimistic? Is there a reason not to? Has Bioware given enough reason to anyone to be optimistic? Rhetorical question, but are you even fan of these games? Yes. Just not the recent ones. Even if EA didn't announce the cancelation it would have been somehow released one way or another to the public. Even when BioWare stopped working on Shadow Realms it had a press release and it was in early to mid stage development. Besides I doubt the ending of future support for Anthem would make any real difference if anything telling people if it has been cancelled could be seen as a positive for they aren't misleading players. Maybe.
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Post by jclosed on Feb 20, 2021 20:30:48 GMT
Depends. If EA would consider now a good time to go ahead with announcing it. There was the whole #IBelieveInAthem thing when the news about the evaluation made rounds. Why are you so pessimistic? Rhetorical question, but are you even fan of these games? I mean, being on a fan forum and all.
Well - I am definitely a fan of the Bioware games (although more to the Dragon Age side than the Mass Effect side), but I can only agree with sirpetrakus here. Hell - I even liked Mass Effect Andromeda. And that seems not to be so common here.
However - I absolutely dislike the way Bioware is going with Anthem. That's no surprise for everyone here, because I have proclaimed that several times. Bioware was strong with story telling and character builds. And all of that in a single player experience. However - They choose to go the multiplayer path with Anthem. Something they did well as an extension to a single player game, but not to a full game solely. Bioware's single player story telling strength does not fit well in a game like Anthem. And it shows!! Anthem is frankly a disaster that was bound to be happening. The moment I heard Anthem would be a multiplayer game was the same moment I completely lost all interest. Why? Because it's not that typical Bioware-style game I like and love. When you do something multiplayer, the whole single player experience that I love and prefer goes down the drain. Even worst - The GAS component will make sure you will never ever have a finished game.
So - While I am a Bioware fan, I really are no fan at all for that disaster called Anthem. I hope Bioware will survive this mistake by putting out a very strong single player game a soon as possible, otherwise I see a straight beam of light in the darkness surrounding Bioware. A bright beam shining down on the chopping block reserved for them by EA.
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Party like it's 2023!
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by KaiserShep on Feb 21, 2021 2:33:09 GMT
You can also tell that the team had a seemingly rudderless sense of direction when it was putting together its campaign. That part where you had to grind out certain objectives to unlock the tombs made me die a little inside. It was the sort of braindead shit I expected out of Bungie for a lot of its bounties, not something I would have ever expected out of a main campaign quest in a BioWare title. It felt totally tacked on to pad time. Its only saving grace was that it counted any objectives you met retroactively, but if you were the sort to get the campaign out of the way beforehand, you’d be in for a bad time doing this repetitive shit over and over and possibly compete for kills (at least when the lobbies were more active).
I honestly do not see a commitment to this bearing fruit if EA decides to go forward. It might just be better off getting the chop.
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Sanunes
N6
    
Just a flip of the coin.
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Prime Posts: 4392
Prime Likes: 882
Posts: 5,801 Likes: 8,735
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Sept 25, 2023 14:08:48 GMT
8,735
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Just a flip of the coin.
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by Sanunes on Feb 21, 2021 5:43:59 GMT
You can also tell that the team had a seemingly rudderless sense of direction when it was putting together its campaign. That part where you had to grind out certain objectives to unlock the tombs made me die a little inside. It was the sort of braindead shit I expected out of Bungie for a lot of its bounties, not something I would have ever expected out of a main campaign quest in a BioWare title. It felt totally tacked on to pad time. Its only saving grace was that it counted any objectives you met retroactively, but if you were the sort to get the campaign out of the way beforehand, you’d be in for a bad time doing this repetitive shit over and over and possibly compete for kills (at least when the lobbies were more active). I honestly do not see a commitment to this bearing fruit if EA decides to go forward. It might just be better off getting the chop. That quest is moronic and nearly was the end of the game for me when I went back, but after thinking about it I think it was designed to demonstrate the "open world" system of the game. Thankfully that is the only time that happens and in the defense of BioWare in the regard plenty of other games have some mandatory part of their games to demonstrate the aspects nobody wants to play. I tried to go back to Assassin's Creed Odyssey and the mandatory parts where you have to do ship combat just drove me away for I hate those segments with a passion just like that segment in Anthem and the worst part was finding the chests. I do think the story would have been better if there wasn't what felt like four different storylines going on. For there is the campaign, Freelancers, the Sentinels, and the quests from Matthias. Even if the quests stayed the same, but the overall narrative brought it all into a single cohesive story for me it would have been a better experience. The real letdown of the game is the end game and the way I have took everything that has been presented as little that has been is that is pretty much where the focus of what they are doing now is with very little changing elsewhere. A lot of comments I have seen make Anthem 2.0 sound like its going to be some kind of remake/remaster and I don't see that happening. I see it not being that way with the small number of people that they have working on it and that its being done by BioWare Austin which pretty much is where BioWare maintains their server side game. So my expectations were mostly numbers changes and very little else.
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Post by KaiserShep on Feb 21, 2021 7:02:45 GMT
You can also tell that the team had a seemingly rudderless sense of direction when it was putting together its campaign. That part where you had to grind out certain objectives to unlock the tombs made me die a little inside. It was the sort of braindead shit I expected out of Bungie for a lot of its bounties, not something I would have ever expected out of a main campaign quest in a BioWare title. It felt totally tacked on to pad time. Its only saving grace was that it counted any objectives you met retroactively, but if you were the sort to get the campaign out of the way beforehand, you’d be in for a bad time doing this repetitive shit over and over and possibly compete for kills (at least when the lobbies were more active). I honestly do not see a commitment to this bearing fruit if EA decides to go forward. It might just be better off getting the chop. That quest is moronic and nearly was the end of the game for me when I went back, but after thinking about it I think it was designed to demonstrate the "open world" system of the game. Thankfully that is the only time that happens and in the defense of BioWare in the regard plenty of other games have some mandatory part of their games to demonstrate the aspects nobody wants to play. I tried to go back to Assassin's Creed Odyssey and the mandatory parts where you have to do ship combat just drove me away for I hate those segments with a passion just like that segment in Anthem and the worst part was finding the chests. I do think the story would have been better if there wasn't what felt like four different storylines going on. For there is the campaign, Freelancers, the Sentinels, and the quests from Matthias. Even if the quests stayed the same, but the overall narrative brought it all into a single cohesive story for me it would have been a better experience. The real letdown of the game is the end game and the way I have took everything that has been presented as little that has been is that is pretty much where the focus of what they are doing now is with very little changing elsewhere. A lot of comments I have seen make Anthem 2.0 sound like its going to be some kind of remake/remaster and I don't see that happening. I see it not being that way with the small number of people that they have working on it and that its being done by BioWare Austin which pretty much is where BioWare maintains their server side game. So my expectations were mostly numbers changes and very little else. And really, all I’ve seen so far is just some tweaks that lean more on the Destiny side of design, and that’s not really something that intrigues me. As a Destiny player, the last thing I want is another game that just follows that model without really doing more with it. I just don’t think BioWare is prepared to really invest in the part of the game I feel also needs attention, being the character content and story missions that it kinda sorta tried to have as window dressing.
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biggydx
Finished Dissertation long ago lol. Now happily employed :D
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by biggydx on Feb 21, 2021 13:57:49 GMT
That quest is moronic and nearly was the end of the game for me when I went back, but after thinking about it I think it was designed to demonstrate the "open world" system of the game. Thankfully that is the only time that happens and in the defense of BioWare in the regard plenty of other games have some mandatory part of their games to demonstrate the aspects nobody wants to play. I tried to go back to Assassin's Creed Odyssey and the mandatory parts where you have to do ship combat just drove me away for I hate those segments with a passion just like that segment in Anthem and the worst part was finding the chests. I do think the story would have been better if there wasn't what felt like four different storylines going on. For there is the campaign, Freelancers, the Sentinels, and the quests from Matthias. Even if the quests stayed the same, but the overall narrative brought it all into a single cohesive story for me it would have been a better experience. The real letdown of the game is the end game and the way I have took everything that has been presented as little that has been is that is pretty much where the focus of what they are doing now is with very little changing elsewhere. A lot of comments I have seen make Anthem 2.0 sound like its going to be some kind of remake/remaster and I don't see that happening. I see it not being that way with the small number of people that they have working on it and that its being done by BioWare Austin which pretty much is where BioWare maintains their server side game. So my expectations were mostly numbers changes and very little else. And really, all I’ve seen so far is just some tweaks that lean more on the Destiny side of design, and that’s not really something that intrigues me. As a Destiny player, the last thing I want is another game that just follows that model without really doing more with it. I just don’t think BioWare is prepared to really invest in the part of the game I feel also needs attention, being the character content and story missions that it kinda sorta tried to have as window dressing. I believe the art designs shown in the blog were just mock templates. Someone on Twitter brought up the fact that it looked too closely like Destiny, and Christian Dailey responded with a statement about it just being mock up. I do think they're going to streamline the UI in some regard. The original wasnt all that good to look at, plus there wasnt even a stats page you could reference. My issue with the whole thing of bringing the game back is, yes, it could be brought back in a better position. However, is the audience gonna be there long enough to matter, and how sizable will said audience be? If the final staffing size for the game is 200 Devs, that puts it right in line with Digital Extremes and - possibly - Massive Entertainment (the studio behind The Division). Those games have an audience, but they wane back and forth in terms of relevancy. If you want a strong, consistent playerbase, you need to deliver consistent content to do so. That I think is where BioWare wont live up to EAs expectations, because I dont see the publisher committing 300+ devs to an already maligned and forgotten game. Let alone to compete with another studio [Bungie] that is upwards of 1000 people, as well said studio just releasing statements about near tripling the size of their HQ, further increases in staff size for Destiny, and seeking to bring the Destiny franchise into other forms of media.
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Post by Pounce de León on Feb 23, 2021 13:52:17 GMT
But if EA looks at the redesign and doesn't think it will bring back old players and bring in a lot of new players, that Anthem will continue to disappoint and fail to reach its profit objectives, EA will shut it down before starting down the path of significantly higher development costs. Anthem could, theoretically, make a comeback. It has a huge user base. Over time and with some ludicrous discounts, not to mention the buzz that made people actually want to check it out, to see if it was indeed as bad as people said it was, Anthem could make a comeback. Literally everyone picked it for like $5. Give it a free PS5/XSEX update, with the redesign and maybe sell the "new content" for $30 and you could flip it. But the redesign would have to be stellar. The PS5/XSEX update already exists, it's called PC settings high, you just do some optimization for the hardware, which EA should already have Frostbite tools for and just compile it. The big issue is can the MTX money from Anthem make a good RoI for the investment. And I don't think it's there. You know what made a buzz? Evolve. It died pretty quickly nevertheless. And I've seen many games go F2P and flounder. The good and successful ones dont need to go F2P. The market of players getting fleeced twice for the same game? Pretty limited I'd say. This game doesnt have a future. The marketing cost to fight its image would be a formidable hurdle to master.
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Hrungr
Twitter Guru
ღ N-Special
More coffee...? More coffee.
Staff Mini-Profile Theme: Hrungr
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Anthem
Origin: Hrungr
Prime Posts: 18,258
Prime Likes: 65,767
Posts: 28,933 Likes: 101,654
inherit
ღ N-Special
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101,654
Hrungr
More coffee...? More coffee.
28,933
August 2016
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Hrungr
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Anthem
Hrungr
18,258
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Post by Hrungr on Feb 23, 2021 18:38:55 GMT
Foolish Pupil @foolish_Pupil what's the latest with Anthem? Thought they were deciding it's fate last week?
Jason Schreier @jasonschreier Still waiting on a verdict from above
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Post by SirSourpuss on Feb 23, 2021 19:24:22 GMT
You know what made a buzz? Evolve. It died pretty quickly nevertheless. And I've seen many games go F2P and flounder. The good and successful ones dont need to go F2P. The market of players getting fleeced twice for the same game? Pretty limited I'd say. This game doesnt have a future. The marketing cost to fight its image would be a formidable hurdle to master. Eh, leak the relaunch date on a few gaming sites, who will rush to cover the news and you get free advertisement, which will generate a buzz. People who already bought it for ... what was the price tag on that picture $2.49 with an extra 50% off? Those people will check it out. People who bought it for $60 will check it out, because of original price tag and you got a crowd coming back to see Anthem. Of course, the prospect of going through the same old content without anything more isn't really enticing, but it can grab a crowd for a little while. If what new content is developed comes in for free with the update, it will be a stellar way to get people back. But that's not going to make EA any money, though it would earn them a lot of good will. Especially Bioware, which would need it. I don't know if EA is interested in sinking that much money for 0 return, though.
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Post by Pounce de León on Feb 23, 2021 20:03:53 GMT
You know what made a buzz? Evolve. It died pretty quickly nevertheless. And I've seen many games go F2P and flounder. The good and successful ones dont need to go F2P. The market of players getting fleeced twice for the same game? Pretty limited I'd say. This game doesnt have a future. The marketing cost to fight its image would be a formidable hurdle to master. Eh, leak the relaunch date on a few gaming sites, who will rush to cover the news and you get free advertisement, which will generate a buzz. People who already bought it for ... what was the price tag on that picture $2.49 with an extra 50% off? Those people will check it out. People who bought it for $60 will check it out, because of original price tag and you got a crowd coming back to see Anthem. Of course, the prospect of going through the same old content without anything more isn't really enticing, but it can grab a crowd for a little while. If what new content is developed comes in for free with the update, it will be a stellar way to get people back. But that's not going to make EA any money, though it would earn them a lot of good will. Especially Bioware, which would need it. I don't know if EA is interested in sinking that much money for 0 return, though. Done before. Such things burn maybe bright a short time before they dwindle down. Anthem didn't capture a spark. Bioware failed to deliver enough "live service" content to keep players engaged. The game is in heavily competing market and there is better options for sinking time in. Fractured Space - which was a decent MOBA with space ships struggled along with barely getting over 500 concurrent players and tried all kinds of stuff: F2P, PvE mode, bots, matchmaking tweaks. It was painful to see it go belly up but that's what happens to online games. Some take the candy and the cream like GTA while a vast number dies off within weeks of release.
Remember Battleborn? Lawbreakers?
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Post by Pounce de León on Feb 23, 2021 20:25:19 GMT
And by competing I mean these games compete for player time. You can stretch customers' wallets but the guy who plays already MP Game 1 won't play MP Game 2. Nor will they spend any money - that goes mostly to MP Game 1 they spend their time with already. And a MP game that isn't spent enough time with by players already looks like a losing proposition to players who are looking to play with other players - that is quite a vicious circle.
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Post by skekSil on Feb 23, 2021 21:48:36 GMT
Woah thats an obscure reference. Nice to see another space ship captain. Ironically Fractured Space suffered from some of the same problems as Anthem: it had great gameplay but couldnt find an overall vision for a game and to top it off it was never finished. Anthem does have an advantage being backed by a major studio and a publisher. FS was also quite niche game unlike Anthem that has a wider appeal IMO. I agree with your point though, some games just wont fly no matter what you try.
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Post by Pounce de León on Feb 23, 2021 23:32:54 GMT
Woah thats an obscure reference. Nice to see another space ship captain. Ironically Fractured Space suffered from some of the same problems as Anthem: it had great gameplay but couldnt find an overall vision for a game and to top it off it was never finished. Anthem does have an advantage being backed by a major studio and a publisher. FS was also quite niche game unlike Anthem that has a wider appeal IMO. I agree with your point though, some games just wont fly no matter what you try. I just stuck around with FS, I liked the pacing. One good thing about the low player count was you could recognize other players. And the dude who mercilessly slaughtered me would be on my team some other round.
I also liked Evolve at first. The game had appeal. But after a couple of weeks some cracks in the balance formed, metas emerged and it became very one-sided quickly. It was a nice attempt at asymmetric MP with a studio that seemed to have their hands tied behind their backs.
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