Sondergaard
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR
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Post by Sondergaard on Mar 8, 2021 8:12:08 GMT
Worrying about scientific accuracy in Mass Effect is a trap option. No joke. When I used scientific accuracy/physics with the ME4 teaser to point out the teaser may indicate it being soon after the war, people ate me alive because it didn't fit their preferences. Supposedly a few alien wrinkles transcend all the laws of physics- trap option. The things we learn on these forums. You'd have to assume the writers knew/cared about the laws of physics for your theory to be plausible. Unfortunately the days of ME writers even giving a nod in this direction are long gone. 'Rule of kewl, man! Rule of kewl!'- Mac Walters, probably.
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Post by gothpunkboy89 on Mar 8, 2021 13:07:20 GMT
Name every instance were dark matter was actually brought up and the over all impact or implication in the wider story for ME2.
Because from my memory it was
1. Tali mentioning something about a Star prematurely aging. Which is under cut by the fact 99% of the mission is fighting Geth.
2. Reegar during Tali's loyalty mission talking about how it will take the scientist years to find out the data they found.
3. An E-mail you reived from an NPC from ME1.
Unless I am forgetting some other instances that actually effected the story. Because as the game shows it the star aging was just an excuse to have Tali be on Halestrom the same way Garrus becoming a merc on Omega was an excuse for Garrus to be there. There is nothing developed beyond that point beyond video game convenience for the sake of giving a reason for something rather then the characters simply showing up at the Normandy and wanting to join.
The only real plot thread that was started in ME2 was the humanity is now sum how super special awesome as the game continued to go on and on about how magically unique humanity is because I guess all the other races are so inbred that everyone is both a sibling and cousin at the same time.
As i said, it was to be expanded on in ME3. Foreshadowing. Look it up. That isn't how foreshadowing works. Foreshadowing actually has substance to it. A handful of throw away lines that have 0 impact on anything in the story isn't foreshadowing. The fact they could abandon it so easily without any issue what so ever shows that it isn't foreshadowing.
Throw away dialogue mentioned in a single recruitment and loyalty mission as well as a single e-mail doesn't qualify for any of these statements. If the game further elaborated on dark energy with the Collectors you might have a point. But the Collector's are only building a Reaper for no other reason to build a Reaper. Because Harbinger wanted to a build a Reaper for no adequately explained reason. Given the loss of Sovereign and the reverse engineering of Reaper tech would simply make a lone Reaper's attempt to access the Citadel much harder.
Calling 6 lines and an e-mail foreshadowing is like claiming that finding the heat semantics for that Salarian on the Citadel is foreshadowing for the new Mass Effect game. It literally has the same amount of information and interaction with the over all story.
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Post by KaiserShep on Mar 8, 2021 13:10:52 GMT
The whole thing about Haestrom’s star should have been cut from the game if they weren’t going to do anything with it, because a star aging at the rate suggested is simply physically impossible unless some external force was making it happen, and that would be a big deal on cosmic proportions. To have characters engage in worried dialogue about it, then just abandon that thread entirely is simply obnoxious and goes to the poor writing/planning of the trilogy. It would be akin to small islands in the Caribbean suddenly becoming uninhabitable wastelands and people just forget about it and move on.
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Post by gothpunkboy89 on Mar 8, 2021 13:29:11 GMT
The whole thing about Haestrom’s star should have been cut from the game if they weren’t going to do anything with it, because a star aging at the rate suggested is simply physically impossible unless some external force was making it happen, and that would be a big deal on cosmic proportions. To have characters engage in worried dialogue about it, then just abandon that thread entirely is simply obnoxious and goes to the poor writing/planning of the trilogy. It would be akin to small islands in the Caribbean suddenly becoming uninhabitable wastelands and people just forget about it and move on. I 100% agree. Such a massive issue should be the core story of the game the information is brought up in because of the massive impact it has. Yet it is used as filler lines simply to validate why Tali is doing something.
I suspect people like Sonder will continue to parade this around like it was really some big important deal because all they want to do is bitch about Mac Walter's writing and pretend like this writing is some how deep and meaningful. You know the kind of people who acted like Obsidian's Outer Worlds was the greatest game ever created simply because they wanted to bitch about Bethesda and Fallout 76.
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ahglock
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Shattered Steel, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem
Origin: ShinobiKillfist
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Post by ahglock on Mar 8, 2021 14:59:55 GMT
No joke. When I used scientific accuracy/physics with the ME4 teaser to point out the teaser may indicate it being soon after the war, people ate me alive because it didn't fit their preferences. Supposedly a few alien wrinkles transcend all the laws of physics- trap option. The things we learn on these forums. You'd have to assume the writers knew/cared about the laws of physics for your theory to be plausible. Unfortunately the days of ME writers even giving a nod in this direction are long gone. 'Rule of kewl, man! Rule of kewl!'- Mac Walters, probably. It is one of the things I liked about ME1. Much of their tech was science plausible. It hinged on a element zero, but all sci-fi that has FTL hinges their tech on something like that. I get the artistic reasoning of changes in ME2, like its a RPG you want to see peoples faces ans expressions so the rebreather things in 0 atmosphere, but I was not a fan of that change.
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Post by alanc9 on Mar 8, 2021 15:07:13 GMT
Like I've said before, ME works best if you have very high or very low standards for this sort of thing. If you have low standards then you don't notice all the silliness. And if you have high standards, you always knew that ME was a dopey science-fantasy mess, and like it anyway.
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ahglock
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Shattered Steel, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem
Origin: ShinobiKillfist
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Post by ahglock on Mar 8, 2021 15:26:40 GMT
Depends on what you mean, I guess. It definitely had dopey elements in ME1, but the core of it was pretty solid. Not going to call it hard sci-fi or anything but they made the core interaction for FTL/their guns etc science plausible. Biotics obviously not and quite a few other things on the side were clearly there for making the story more entertaining as pure hard sci fi gets pretty dry for most people.
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Post by themikefest on Mar 8, 2021 16:40:14 GMT
Some instance like Thane were done well because Thane was dying anyways. What if Thane was able to live? I say this because of Kirrahe. On Sur'Kesh, Kirrahe will say he's been assigned to security detail for the councilor, if Thane is not in ME3. He won't say that if Thane is in ME3. Why is that? How different would events have been if Kirrahe was there as well as Thane? I get that if one or the other isn't in the game, they die, or if both are not, the councilor dies, but why not have the option where all 3 live? While we cannot infer to the Collectors' motive, it would be safe to assume a second attack on the Citadel and a repeat of the ME1 end scenario, when the Reaper would be ready for combat. I've read posts form people saying the collectors were building the reaper to replace Sovereign. I don't agree. When seeing the proto reaper, look how much of it is completed? Only that much in about 2 years. The reaper invasion happens in about 6 months. No need to replace Sovereign. My theory is the collectors were starting the harvest because the reapers failed to show up. With Shepard destroying the base, the reapers have to resort to plan b, the Citadel. The other thing is the IFF. Why would the derelict reaper have an IFF? It's only used to get through the omega 4 relay. Is it needed to use the Citadel relay as well?
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Post by SirSourpuss on Mar 8, 2021 17:48:07 GMT
I've read posts form people saying the collectors were building the reaper to replace Sovereign. I don't agree. When seeing the proto reaper, look how much of it is completed? Only that much in about 2 years. The reaper invasion happens in about 6 months. No need to replace Sovereign. Which is a huge stupid thing to do. From a narrative standpoint. At that point, even having Sovereign do anything in the first place is stupid. It's 3 years to the edge of the Milky Way and would take them less, if nobody was aware of their presence, so they could at least use the Alpha Relay unobstructed. It's not like the Milky Way would have developed Thanix canons on their own. My theory is the collectors were starting the harvest because the reapers failed to show up. Considering that the Collector General was controlled by Harbinger, that doesn't hold much water. There's no reason for Harbinger to start the harvest ahead of time, with 0 backup for the Collectors, when they could get BTFO'd by any fleet. They don't have to numbers or fire power to take on, say Turian space. All they could do was attack unguarded human colonies. With Shepard destroying the base, the reapers have to resort to plan b, the Citadel. The other thing is the IFF. Why would the derelict reaper have an IFF? It's only used to get through the omega 4 relay. Is it needed to use the Citadel relay as well? I assume the IFF is there because it's some sort of Reaper repair factory. Imagine if, during a harvest, a small force found out and like suicide bombed the facility or threw meteors to damaged Reapers and threw them into the Black Hole. Incredible loss for the Reaper forces.
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Post by KaiserShep on Mar 8, 2021 18:10:19 GMT
Some instance like Thane were done well because Thane was dying anyways. What if Thane was able to live? I say this because of Kirrahe. On Sur'Kesh, Kirrahe will say he's been assigned to security detail for the councilor, if Thane is not in ME3. He won't say that if Thane is in ME3. Why is that? How different would events have been if Kirrahe was there as well as Thane? I get that if one or the other isn't in the game, they die, or if both are not, the councilor dies, but why not have the option where all 3 live? While we cannot infer to the Collectors' motive, it would be safe to assume a second attack on the Citadel and a repeat of the ME1 end scenario, when the Reaper would be ready for combat. I've read posts form people saying the collectors were building the reaper to replace Sovereign. I don't agree. When seeing the proto reaper, look how much of it is completed? Only that much in about 2 years. The reaper invasion happens in about 6 months. No need to replace Sovereign. My theory is the collectors were starting the harvest because the reapers failed to show up. With Shepard destroying the base, the reapers have to resort to plan b, the Citadel. The other thing is the IFF. Why would the derelict reaper have an IFF? It's only used to get through the omega 4 relay. Is it needed to use the Citadel relay as well? I agree that if Kirrahe is alive, there should have been an optimal outcome where Kai Leng is simply forced to flee, since at that point he would be overwhelmed. Much of the rest of that mission could play out the same, just without a Thane-kabob. There isn’t any particularly good reason to build another reaper at that time. If anything, doing so would cause unnecessary exposure to their plans. It was already bad enough that Sovereign decided to Leroy Jenkins itself at the Citadel with a contingent of geth only to get itself destroyed, made unnecessary retroactively. The reapers were just fortunate that the Council’s dumber than a sack of oranges. The reapers didn’t fail to show up; they were well on their way. If we were to assume that the reaper fleet was coaxed into action by Sovereign’s failure, that would be a shade over 2 years before they arrive through the Alpha Relay, which is established as of Arrival. A couple of years isn’t really a long time to wait for backup.
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Post by gothpunkboy89 on Mar 8, 2021 18:49:22 GMT
Some instance like Thane were done well because Thane was dying anyways. What if Thane was able to live? I say this because of Kirrahe. On Sur'Kesh, Kirrahe will say he's been assigned to security detail for the councilor, if Thane is not in ME3. He won't say that if Thane is in ME3. Why is that? How different would events have been if Kirrahe was there as well as Thane? I get that if one or the other isn't in the game, they die, or if both are not, the councilor dies, but why not have the option where all 3 live? While we cannot infer to the Collectors' motive, it would be safe to assume a second attack on the Citadel and a repeat of the ME1 end scenario, when the Reaper would be ready for combat. I've read posts form people saying the collectors were building the reaper to replace Sovereign. I don't agree. When seeing the proto reaper, look how much of it is completed? Only that much in about 2 years. The reaper invasion happens in about 6 months. No need to replace Sovereign. My theory is the collectors were starting the harvest because the reapers failed to show up. With Shepard destroying the base, the reapers have to resort to plan b, the Citadel. The other thing is the IFF. Why would the derelict reaper have an IFF? It's only used to get through the omega 4 relay. Is it needed to use the Citadel relay as well?
From the first introduction to Thane we are told he has an incurable fatal illness. So what if he could live is pretty irrelevant.
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Post by skekSil on Mar 8, 2021 18:51:34 GMT
What about Rachni? Its implied that Reapers tried to use them to get access to Citadel. Since that plan failed there are two possibilites: either Reapers were tolazy to do a 3 year trip to nearest Mass Relay for 2000 years or they have been traveling to Milky Way all this time. Given what we know about their FTL capabilities they started their trek from waaay further than Andromeda galaxy.
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Post by alanc9 on Mar 8, 2021 18:54:33 GMT
It's a funny narrative puzzle. Optimum Reaper strategy is doing nothing at all to attract notice until such time as they unleash an overwhelming final assault. So what happens meanwhile?
Picture an ME2 where Shepard stays a Spectre and spends most of the game investigating tenuous leads to various supposed Reaper plots... but none of the plots turn out to have anything to do with the Reapers because the Reapers really aren't actually doing anything in the MW. Shepard's eventually kicked out of the Spectres for being a conspiracy-theory nutjob, and that's when Cerberus shows up with a job offer.
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Post by alanc9 on Mar 8, 2021 18:58:02 GMT
What about Rachni? Its implied that Reapers tried to use them to get access to Citadel. Since that plan failed there are two possibilites: either Reapers were tolazy to do a 3 year trip to nearest Mass Relay for 2000 years or they have been traveling to Milky Way all this time. Given what we know about their FTL capabilities they started their trek from waaay further than Andromeda galaxy. Third possibility; they're still planning to pull off their Citadel-first surprise attack strategy. Since the Reapers weren't compromised by the Rachni War, and the Citadel powers are voluntarily limiting their military power, there's no downside to waiting .
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Post by themikefest on Mar 8, 2021 21:00:49 GMT
From the first introduction to Thane we are told he has an incurable fatal illness. So what if he could live is pretty irrelevant. Even with the disease he has, doesn't mean he has to die at that time. Can you explain why Kirrahe doesn't show during the coup up even if Thane is in ME3?
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Post by skekSil on Mar 8, 2021 22:16:15 GMT
From the first introduction to Thane we are told he has an incurable fatal illness. So what if he could live is pretty irrelevant. Even with the disease he has, doesn't mean he has to die at that time. Can you explain why Kirrahe doesn't show during the coup up even if Thane is in ME3? Kirrahe was thee all along, just cloaked. he didnt have to intervene since Thane did it instead.
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Post by alanc9 on Mar 8, 2021 22:53:47 GMT
From the first introduction to Thane we are told he has an incurable fatal illness. So what if he could live is pretty irrelevant. Even with the disease he has, doesn't mean he has to die at that time. Can you explain why Kirrahe doesn't show during the coup up even if Thane is in ME3? I just don't see how dying in bed is a preferable way for Thane to go out. They could have it happen, yeah, but what's the case for spending zots to make the game worse?
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Post by Radec on Mar 8, 2021 23:12:44 GMT
What if Thane was able to live? I say this because of Kirrahe. On Sur'Kesh, Kirrahe will say he's been assigned to security detail for the councilor, if Thane is not in ME3. He won't say that if Thane is in ME3. Why is that? How different would events have been if Kirrahe was there as well as Thane? I get that if one or the other isn't in the game, they die, or if both are not, the councilor dies, but why not have the option where all 3 live? I've read posts form people saying the collectors were building the reaper to replace Sovereign. I don't agree. When seeing the proto reaper, look how much of it is completed? Only that much in about 2 years. The reaper invasion happens in about 6 months. No need to replace Sovereign. My theory is the collectors were starting the harvest because the reapers failed to show up. With Shepard destroying the base, the reapers have to resort to plan b, the Citadel. The other thing is the IFF. Why would the derelict reaper have an IFF? It's only used to get through the omega 4 relay. Is it needed to use the Citadel relay as well? I agree that if Kirrahe is alive, there should have been an optimal outcome where Kai Leng is simply forced to flee, since at that point he would be overwhelmed. Much of the rest of that mission could play out the same, just without a Thane-kabob. You're assuming that Mac & Casey's ridiculous self insert DMPC would lose a fight just because they added yet another previously competent enemy to the mix. He already 4v1's Shepard and 3 of the most badass other people in the galaxy in a totally ridiculous display. The rules of the setting don't apply to him. Later on, he struts right into a 3v1 on Thessia. This faceless, character-less weeb goon they introduced in act two is for some reason not afraid of your three-person squad of famous and infamous combatants, because he knows he is the writer, and the writer has given himself a "cool" costume and multiple layers of plot armor. After you easily beat his ass in a totally pointless and superflous gameplay sequence that may as well have been a cutscene, he takes out your squad by...... throwing one of them and gently knocking the other one over (so i guess they're incapacited now even tho they've been through far worse), he cranks off a one liner and you fall through the floor. Kai is only a couple of steps away from where you randomly fell through the floor, but he’s not the least bit worried, still strutting confidently and spewing one-liners. The crumbling floor doesn’t apply to him. He’s not worried about falling in because he’s the writer and he made that abyss just for you. You can cling to the ledge just long enough to see his dramatic exit and listen to his one-liners. You don’t get any dialogue, because the writer doesn’t want to hear your voice while he’s busy jerking off in your face. You dumb loser. After the mission you get the honor of "controlling" Shepard as he petulantly cries about how the writer beat his ass to literally everyone. Even if you played a pro-human Shepard up to this point and have no reason to give much of a shit about Thessia, you still get shook into doing so. To top it all off, the writer self-insert sends you a smarmy XBox live email message about how he beat your ass and how much you suck. The brat gets most of the hate, but I'd listen to hours of its pithy monologues if it meant I never had to suffer through a Kai Leng cutscene again.
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Post by gothpunkboy89 on Mar 9, 2021 0:25:24 GMT
From the first introduction to Thane we are told he has an incurable fatal illness. So what if he could live is pretty irrelevant. Even with the disease he has, doesn't mean he has to die at that time. Can you explain why Kirrahe doesn't show during the coup up even if Thane is in ME3? Because it would be redundant for him to show up from a narrative and cinematic reason. This is Thane's last action going down a hero's death as final penance for his life of murder that got his wife killed and estranged him from his son.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Mar 9, 2021 0:34:30 GMT
Because it would be redundant for him to show up from a narrative and cinematic reason That is a very meta reason, though. Which doesn't hold up as an in-universe explanation. If Kirrahe shows up, if Thane is dead, where is he when Thane is alive? Kirrahe has no reason, if he is there to protect the Dalatrass or the Councilor, I forget which one it is in that scene, not to show up, just because Thane is on the Citadel. He would have no forward knowledge that Thane would be there, or that he would try to save her. Even in the event of hiring him for her protection, how would Kirrahe know about the coup, to set up Thane for her protection and why would he hire a half dead Drell for the job? Why would he also abandon his post at her side and not stay with her, in addition to purchasing the protection services of Thane. I am in favour of keeping in-universe consistency, instead of making a "cool" scene. I don't like being intentionally emotionally manipulated, especially when the writer is being this transparent about it.
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Post by gothpunkboy89 on Mar 9, 2021 1:41:00 GMT
Because it would be redundant for him to show up from a narrative and cinematic reason That is a very meta reason, though. Which doesn't hold up as an in-universe explanation. If Kirrahe shows up, if Thane is dead, where is he when Thane is alive? Kirrahe has no reason, if he is there to protect the Dalatrass or the Councilor, I forget which one it is in that scene, not to show up, just because Thane is on the Citadel. He would have no forward knowledge that Thane would be there, or that he would try to save her. Even in the event of hiring him for her protection, how would Kirrahe know about the coup, to set up Thane for her protection and why would he hire a half dead Drell for the job? Why would he also abandon his post at her side and not stay with her, in addition to purchasing the protection services of Thane. I am in favour of keeping in-universe consistency, instead of making a "cool" scene. I don't like being intentionally emotionally manipulated, especially when the writer is being this transparent about it. Of course it is meta. Stories are always build with meta reasoning in mind. You really think it is logical that a Prothean VI started to cut life support units to conserve power until there were only a dozen left. Then suddenly Saren with a like 20 minute head start can some how power up a prototype mass relay?
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Post by SirSourpuss on Mar 9, 2021 2:25:32 GMT
Of course it is meta. Stories are always build with meta reasoning in mind. You really think it is logical that a Prothean VI started to cut life support units to conserve power until there were only a dozen left. Then suddenly Saren with a like 20 minute head start can some how power up a prototype mass relay? I assume, Saren, equipped with Sovereign's knowledge, the Geth and the Mass Relays would be able to power up a Mass Relay fairly easily. Especially a primitive one. Is a 20 minute head start enough? I can buy it. Kirrahe appearing and disappearing on circumstance? Seems highly illogical and improbable. Not impossible, but definitely questionable behaviour, if not intentional. It depends on what degree one can believe the excuse. Or if the payoff for the excuse is worth it. If the payoff is death, it's kinda hard to justify.
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Post by gothpunkboy89 on Mar 9, 2021 3:02:01 GMT
Of course it is meta. Stories are always build with meta reasoning in mind. You really think it is logical that a Prothean VI started to cut life support units to conserve power until there were only a dozen left. Then suddenly Saren with a like 20 minute head start can some how power up a prototype mass relay? I assume, Saren, equipped with Sovereign's knowledge, the Geth and the Mass Relays would be able to power up a Mass Relay fairly easily. Especially a primitive one. Is a 20 minute head start enough? I can buy it. Kirrahe appearing and disappearing on circumstance? Seems highly illogical and improbable. Not impossible, but definitely questionable behaviour, if not intentional. It depends on what degree one can believe the excuse. Or if the payoff for the excuse is worth it. If the payoff is death, it's kinda hard to justify. Fuel source. We see nothing of Saren trasporting generators or fuel to turn on a generator. The VI's entire logic behind it is that they literally ran out of fuel and thus power to keep the life pods alive. Saren basically walked up to an old car that had been sitting on the side of the road for a decade and just turned the key and the car started right up. By the law of "everything that ever happens needs to be completely and totally shown and explained" this makes no sense and is completely for a meta reason.
Thane was dying. Thane going out as a hero is a much better ending then spending weeks hooked up to a ventilator fading slowly. It fits Thane's character and it fits his character arc.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Mar 9, 2021 3:16:18 GMT
Fuel source. We see nothing of Saren trasporting generators or fuel to turn on a generator. The VI's entire logic behind it is that they literally ran out of fuel and thus power to keep the life pods alive. Saren basically walked up to an old car that had been sitting on the side of the road for a decade and just turned the key and the car started right up. By the law of "everything that ever happens needs to be completely and totally shown and explained" this makes no sense and is completely for a meta reason. I would assume Saren came prepared. There is a difference in that, compared to two variables, unrelated to each other, while both in effect, having a specific, off screen reason happening, that makes no sense. If Kirrahe is alive, he should be there, in either case. I assume, for him being there in one case, he has been tasked to do so. There is no reason to be un-tasked from it and be substituted by a dying Drell. I have no reason to assume it.
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Post by Sondergaard on Mar 9, 2021 11:29:50 GMT
Throw away dialogue mentioned in a single recruitment and loyalty mission as well as a single e-mail doesn't qualify for any of these statements. If the game further elaborated on dark energy with the Collectors you might have a point. But the Collector's are only building a Reaper for no other reason to build a Reaper. Because Harbinger wanted to a build a Reaper for no adequately explained reason. Given the loss of Sovereign and the reverse engineering of Reaper tech would simply make a lone Reaper's attempt to access the Citadel much harder.
Calling 6 lines and an e-mail foreshadowing is like claiming that finding the heat semantics for that Salarian on the Citadel is foreshadowing for the new Mass Effect game. It literally has the same amount of information and interaction with the over all story.
The Salarian heating schematics had a resolution within the game. The Dark Energy thread did not, ergo foreshadowing. The wiki entry you quoted backs that up. However, I have bitter memories of trying to get you to even understand (never mind accept) an opposing opinion from years ago, much like like hitting my head against a brick wall and almost as painful. So, I'll leave this here.
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